Episode 264
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xechnao said:
I'm guessing because Griffith probably still has feelings for him.
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
CnC said:
Eh, gotta go with "Griffith no More!" on this one. Whether Griffith wants to admit it or not, Guts is a major threat to him at the moment. He didn't kill him on the hill of swords because he didn't see Guts as a threat to him (even if he did Guts' threat status has grown so much since then). I'm really hoping they at least catch a glimpse of one another in Vritannis before meeting in Elfhelm (and they will, there's no doubt in my mind that some shit is gonna go down once they reach Skellig).
Rhombaad said:
Griffith visited the hill of swords for a certain reason. This reason must be linked to how Griffith reacts to Guts and Casca.
See in my post above the rhetoric questions I made.
Even if Griffith seems one dimentional (his dream), he is not a 100% one direction character. Even one dimention has to bear at least 2 directions, no?
Remember that as Phemto after he called Guts insignificant back then, he did turn his face to look him again, didn't he?
If Skellig were directly in the territories he wants to rule at the moment I could see him trying to attack it and stop Guts seeing as it supposedly got quite a few wizards and witch's on it along with the mighty Elf King seeing as he sent two Apostle generals and a small group of apostles to take out an old and dying witch. However as it is, I think Griffith is more worried about defeating the Kushans and asserting himself upon the thrown of Midland. Then again Guts might be there and back again by this time and an even greater threat to Griffith if healed and so forth.
HawaiianStallion said:
I agree with that. I think Griffith's focus is on other things right now. Moreoever, even though Guts might pose a threat to Griffith in the future, as of now Griffith can probably defeat Guts quite easily. Furthermore, at this instant, I think Griffith and the rest of the god hands view Guts with more amusement than fear. For example, even when Guts survived the eclipse all Zodd was, "Interesting...", there was no fear in his eyes or any sort of urgency to get rid of Guts. Sure it's been a LONG time since the eclipse, but I don't think Guts and his band's powers come anywhere close to those of the God Hand.
In short, I think right now Guts is like a rat to them. Sure he's causing somewhat of a nuisance and he escaped their rat trap but that just makes him is a rare rat; something that instills more curiosity than fear.
Having said that however, I'm very curious about how powerful Shierke and the rest of Guts' "band" become. Moreover, I'm very curious about the role that Caska will play (if and when she regains her sanity).
silentmoon said:
While I wouldnt say anything about Griffith's actual power on the battle field in comparison to Guts (we really have nothing to go on), I'd actually like to say Guts is one of the few human's who has the power to actually harm Griffith, and not simply from his extreme amount of skill, the DS, the Berserk armor, and so forth but from the fact he isnt like most human's, and grounded in the real world. Thanks to the brand he's developed in the interstice and could possibly kill Griffith if the opportunity presented itself. It's been stated that normal human's cant even tough Griffith (archer's arrows missing him), and so forth and thus the reason he probably had such a large contingent of apostles go after Flora.
Also the apostles look down on everyone, even Guts despite his reputation, often times it can be a problem for them to be so arrogant. The God Hand are a bit more mysterious in my eyes aside from Slann who seems to be rather bored with the less than corporeal desires of the others (floating formlessly and so forth). Most likely they look at him in the same way as they look at everything else, detachment.
Rhombaad said:
Whether or not he IS a threat to him is moot. Whether or not Griffith sees him as a threat is key. And I don't think he does.
I'll try to clarify my position here, as it seems to be causing aaz confusion (
). To Griffith, the greater threat is Elfhelm, not Guts. I don't think Griffith sees Guts as a threat right now (despite his alledged "status").That being said, whether or not Griffith can DO anything about Elfhelm is debateable, as we don't know enough about the place...
Yes, Guts has done some damage to Grunbeld (we don't even know if Griffith knows about Slan, theres nothing to prove he does or doesn't) and to many apostles in the past, doesn't mean anything in the long run. SK can make Apostle sashimi, and I don't see Griffith actively seeking him out.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
CnC said:
And the same goes for everything else you said, so...
Anyway, my sassy little friend Schierke thinks all you boys need to get a life and get out over volume 3, it was like, so 1991. Like yeah, I totally think Griffith isn't afraid of Guts because he's just a small child being sodimized by a large black man!
Like, gag me with a Dragon Slayer!
Rhombaad
Video Game Time Traveler
silentmoon said:
Well we know for a fact that the Dragon Slayer is capable of at least destroying a God Hand's ethereal form (what happened with Slann), so I think Guts is definitely capable of harming Griffith, if the situation presents itself. I agree that the God Hand probably look upon Guts with amusement, though, since Slann just seemed to be enjoying his struggle with her.
"Griffith No More!" said:Like, gag me with a Dragon Slayer!
XD
If Griffith was going to come to Vritannis to deal with Guts, he would have to confront Ganishka and the Kushan while he was at it. Hard to tell if that would be a problem for him or not.
I'd really, really like for Ganishka to be a considerable threat to Griffith..just seems more interesting that way. Also, it would be pretty lame for Ganishka if Griffith only spared him during Charlotte's rescue in order to appear more of a savior by defeating him later on.
I'd really, really like for Ganishka to be a considerable threat to Griffith..just seems more interesting that way. Also, it would be pretty lame for Ganishka if Griffith only spared him during Charlotte's rescue in order to appear more of a savior by defeating him later on.
There are only two directions that you can go on a one dimensional continuum:
-n ... -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 ... n
<-|-------|---|---|---|---|---|---|-----|->
i.e. You can travel toward n or -n.
Or by two directions do you mean 2 dimensional:
y
^
|
|
|
|
|
--|------------------->x
|
Which has an infinite amount of directions one can go.
If Guts still has any effect on Griffith, I highly doubt that Griffith would acknowledge them, especially to Guts - he would only reveal such sentiments if they would somehow further his goals.
jepn30 said:
Yeap, this is the one I meant but without the numbers. Griffith seems to be a one dimention character, his dimention being the dimention of his dream or idea's plan. But Griffith as a character must have the possibility to go by himself either ahead or backwards in this dimention.
And this Griffith's one dimention is valid for whatever point he seems to be on the above axis. Ie he is always the hawk of light and the hawk of darkness (the dimention now seen from another spectator's POV (aka people)). So, I guess the numbers on the above axis don't really fit.
"Griffith No More!" said:
Everyone else can, like, totally spew out baseless speculation why can't I?
Actually I'm basing Griffith's what I said off the flora attack and the hill of swords, primarily. There isn't much else to go on, so I'll just shut up until something more concrete develops.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
CnC said:
You mean when Griffith acknowledged Guts as possibily the greatest threat to him by going to see him first thing back (BTW, Griff still needed Zodd to block the DS, just saying =) and then the time when Griffith sent some of his most powerful men to kill the old woman that gave Guts his super armor? That same time Guts used that armor to slay more of Griffith's Apostles than Ganishka has, and left Grunbeld helplessly crying out for him to come back? The same Grunbeld that already wanted to challenge the famous Black Swordsman, who went on to say how he heard said Swordsman had fought Nosferatu Zodd to a draw, and then went on further to say that he would defeat said Swordsman, their great enemy, in the name of the Hawk?
Now, that aside, while I wouldn't presume to know how Griffith categorizes "threats," and I can see him, at least openly, shrugging Guts off, I don't think he'll totally ignore his men, his resources, getting wiped out like that. By the way, all things being equal, what exactly makes you think he just doesn't consider this guy threatening again? Ignoring him especially because it's Guts? Some kind of denial? I mean, the way he's been acting, I think Griffith would care about anybody killing a bunch of his strongest men, let alone his sworn enemy with the magic armor and a vendetta against him (the one whose potential he recognized in the first place).
Furthermore, and this is just my own opinion based on concrete evidence, I think the whole armor incident was more of a coming out party than people seem to realize. It marked Guts entry into the big leagues. He's not just some tough guy that managed to kill a few Apostles anymore. Anyway...
Fuck me gently with an arm-canon.
BTW, we need to have a whole Griffith/Heather thread. How very. =)
"Griffith No More!" said:
Right before he said he was "free" of him, yea, thats the same time I was talking about (btw, dunno if there was a "need" to defended there, he sure didn't give the impression he was in trouble).
"Griffith No More!" said:
Yea, that time they were attacking her more than likely because she was a powerful witch, rather than she had super armor to give Guts (surprised at both, when they discovered they were there)
"Griffith No More!" said:
Got me there, griff. Only rebuttal I can get is that thats not what they were sent there to do.
"Griffith No More!" said:
Not saying its a good idea, just its what he seems to be doing.
And this, is my own opinion based on the same evidence. Despite his new found power, I don't see Guts being actively persued by Griffith. Sure, if they see each other, it ain't gonna be an amicable exchange.
"Griffith No More!" said:
Ok, I think we need to get two things straight. First, we only have a VERY vague idea about what Griffith's agenda is and second, we don't know what Griffith's true powers are so it would be pointless to argue how much and how easily Guts can hurt him.
However, having said that, I think that if Griffith wanted to he could easily get rid of Guts. Where's the evidence? We all know Griffith is a great tactician. How simple is it for him to plan an all out attack on Guts and his band? He could order Grunbeld and Zodd to keep Guts busy, meanwhile Griffith and Irvine can take care of Schierke, Serpico can be handled by a couple of apostles. Griffith can even use Casca as a hostage. Also keep in mind that when Zodd and Guts fought in the hill of the swords, Griffith did NOTHING. I can easily imagine Zodd keeping Guts busy while Griffith's slender sword pierces guts armor. OF course killing Guts is easier said than done, however I think it's fair to say that with the tactical genius of Griffith it's manageable.
Now why is this imporant in the first place? It helps determine what Griffith's real agenda and personality is. The reason he killed off Flora is still somewhat of a mystery, and furthermore the fact that Griffith didn't kill off Guts, even when he "technically" could is quite interesting. Isn't he nothing but Femto hiding behind an angelic mask? Or is he something different? Does he harbor any enmity or feelings of frienship towards Guts? Or does he view him with indifference, merely as a "target" to observe?
Of course we can only wait to see the answers to these questions, but one thing's true. While Guts has only two objectives: making Casca sane, and getting revenge on Griffith; Griffith has far more objectives in his quest to create a "perfect world", and to satisfy the wish of the Beherit/Apostle.
Griffith
With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
CnC said:
I was just stating the facts (BTW, are you saying what happened on the hill didn't really happen, or didn't need to? What, how do we argue that? =) In that case, maybe Griffith was lying when he said he was free of him. Afterall, he didn't seem to be when he felt those pangs with the Demon Child and then left abrubtly. You think he might have had anybody else killed on principle? Actually, Zodd wasn't holding back, so I could argue that Griffith has personally gone and tried to have Guts killed once already but pulled out due to personal conflictions... antually, that's not bad
).CnC said:
True, but don't you think Griffith listens to what Zodd and Grunbeld have to report? What are they going to tell him, ignore the Back Swordsman? Grunbeld more or less publically declared he needed to be stopped for Griffith's protection.
CnC said:
I can feel that, but I think it's a lot more open than just that and there's a bottom line (especially with someone like Griff). Sooner or later, we all know who's going to be the official numero uno threat to Griffith.
CnC said:
Well, I'd say regardless of the same evidence in some cases. For instance, and in light in all I've said, there's nothing to prove Griffith is more concerned with Elfhelm right now than Guts, in fact, quite the contrary. Heck, if he doesn't know what happened to Slan, he might not even know about Elfhelm. Flora could just be a personal enemy to God Hand considering her relationship with Skull Knight (I don't believe any of that, but as long as we're playing the what you can prove game... =). Anyway, I take it you're waiting for Griffith to tell Zodd, "Bring me the head of the Black Swordsman"?
CnC said:
Like I said, he already did. Guts was going to retire in a cave with Casca when Griffith showed up and trashed the place like some gangster.
CnC said:
Definetly, that we can agree on.