Ars Magica Possible Berserk Influence

Ars Magica 4th Edition

Welcome to Ars Magica, and to the world of Mythic Europe. It is a place where the glories of the Classical world are dust and the promise of the Renaissance is yet to come. The time is the 13th century —1220 to be exact. Life is a struggle: wars and plagues stalk the land, the Church and kings rule with an iron fist. Yet Mythic Europe is also a place of magical wonder, inhabited by all the creatures of folktale and myth. What the folk of the land believe holds true: faeries and rural spirits must be placated; demons corrupt everything they touch; divine power is accessible through prayer; and magic is everywhere.

Against this background, you will play a magus, a member of the mcal Order of Hermes. You and your fellow players will also portray the loyal companions and grogs that stand with the magi in their covenants. These stalwart protectors provide a buffer between the magi and the mundane world that often misunderstands their power and motives. This is the setting for Ars Magica.

The award-winning first edition of Ars Magica set the benchmark for magic in fantasy roleplaying. It pioneered the storytelling style of roleplaying that has become so popular today. Its setting, Mythic Europe, sparked the imaginations of fantasy fans and history enthusiasts alike. The 272-page fourth edition introduced improved systems in several key areas such as combat, character advancement, and covenant generation. This version of the game retained and improved upon Ars Magica's powerful and flexible magic system —widely regarded as the best rules for magic in all of gaming. Ars Magica Fourth Edition also remained fully compatible with the game's previously released supplements. Ars Magica won the Gamer's Choice Award for Best Fantasy Roleplaying Game of 1988; the fourth edition was nominated for the Origins Award for Best Roleplaying Rules of 1996.

Retrieved from "http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/index.php"


Ars Magica
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ars Magica is a role-playing game set in Mythic Europe, an idealized (or quasi-historical) version of Europe around 1200 AD. The game revolves around magic-using wizards and their allies. The game was originally developed by Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein-Hagen in the late 1980s.

Player characters take on the role of either Wizards (Magi; singular: Magus (male), Maga (female)) or Companions (Consortes, singular Consors). Additionally, there are Grogs (menial workers) played/controlled by all characters. The wizards live clustered in specific citadels (called Covenants), which are often built in places of power. (Covenants are the home base for the Magi, but they tend to roam the Magical Europe for their adventures.) Companions are select skilled non-magi (warriors, foresters, castellan, and so forth) who help wizards conduct their affairs (Magi tend to be distanced from "mundanes" due to their study of magic). In addition to the "authentic" feel from having such a historical setting, the game uses medieval Latin for a number of key terms..

The game system is considered innovative, with everything based on d10. The heart of the game is the magic system, the most celebrated and emulated magic systems among role-playing games. There are 15 "Arts" divided into 5 "Techniques" and 10 "Forms." The Techniques are what one does; the Forms are the objects one does it to or with; this is sometimes called a "Verb/Noun" magic-system. The Arts are named in Latin; the Techniques are: Creo, Intellego, Muto, Perdo, & Rego (Create, Perceive, Change, Destroy, and Control, all Latin verbs conjugated in the first-person singular.) The Forms are: Animal, Auram, Aquam, Corpus, Herbam, Ignem, Imaginem, Mentem, Terram, and Vim (Animal bodies and minds, Air, Water, human Bodies, Plants, Fire, Images/Sensations, human Minds, Earth, and raw arcane Power, once again, all Latin, declined in the accusative case). Thus, Creo Ignem spells create fire (and the normal effects of fire, such as heat or light), while Perdo Imaginem spells destroy images and other sensory experiences (such as invisibility or inaudibility.) Muto spells change the fundamental nature of objects, whereas Rego spells control things without altering what they are. Thus, Rego Aquam could turn water into ice, while Muto Aquam could turn water into oil, stone, or weasel.

Magic is treated in this game-system as a serious object of study: magi are supposed to spend a long time in their laboratories, preparing new spells and potions, and increasing their knowledge of the Arts. The other systemic innovation was the insistence on play-acting the characters - indeed, many characteristics of the later Storyteller system developed by White Wolf Game Studio can be traced to Ars Magica (and the fact that both Ars Magica and the Storyteller system were both developed by the same person); White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension was envisioned as "Ars Magica in the Modern World," and many of the changes in Ars Magica's 3rd edition were introduced in order to make the game-worlds more compatible.

Ars Magica is an example of a Troupe System, although a number of campaigns (known as Sagas) will have most stories run by the same person, known as the Alpha Story Guide. For the length of a story (adventure) there will typically be more Companions than Magi. At the end of a story the players have the option of changing characters (becoming Magi, or Companion) or taking on the role of Storyteller.

Ars Magica was first published by Lion Rampant games, who also published the 2nd edition of the game. In the early 1990s, rights to Ars Magica were acquired by White Wolf, the company that Rein-Hagen had in the meantime founded. White Wolf published the 3rd edition, which greatly expanded the settings and peripheral rules while leaving the core system intact. White Wolf also published many supplements, detailing specific regions of Europe, or outlining stories that could be played in the original setting. Ars Magica was later sold to Wizards of the Coast, who produced several supplements, but just before publishing a 4th edition sold the rights to Atlas Games. Atlas published the fourth edition and has published new source-books since.

The 5th edition was released by Atlas in 2004, including extensive changes to the system, especially the combat system and character creation. Ars Magica 5th edition won the Origins Award for Best Role Playing Game of 2004.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Magica"
 
Aazealh said:
I doubt it has anything to do with it.

Yeap, how can it be?
"Life is a struggle: wars and plagues stalk the land, the Church and kings rule with an iron fist. Yet Mythic Europe is also a place of magical wonder, inhabited by all the creatures of folktale and myth. What the folk of the land believe holds true..."

Not to talk about how magic and wizards are considered...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Not to talk about how magic and wizards are considered...

Yeah, a vague and generic definition of the typical medieval/fantasy world, only this one has a strong historical base, it's in Europe and all (unlike Berserk). It's also all about wizards, magi that are part of a great order and "live clustered in specific citadels". So in short, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with it aside from the common fantasy world clichés that can be found in almost every RPG.
 
Aazealh said:
Yeah, a vague and generic definition of the typical medieval/fantasy world, only this one has a strong historical base, it's in Europe and all (unlike Berserk). It's also all about wizards, magi that are part of a great order and "live clustered in specific citadels". So in short, it doesn't look like it has anything to do with it aside from the common fantasy world clichés that can be found in almost every RPG.

The fantasy or supernatural part is implemented in a very similar way in both of them and this is the most sensible part of the genre.

As far as what you say about citadels, well right now in Bersek because of the GH's plan wizards have lost their status. But in the past wizards were really much more important in Berserk. Not to talk about the 2 citadels we know that seem to have to do something with it.

What has happened in Berserk could happen in the Ars Magica universe too, it is possible. Same about the opposite.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
The fantasy or supernatural part is implemented in a very similar way in both of them

I don't think so. Are you an Ars Magica player? No apostles, no God Hand, no Idea of Evil, no Black Swordsman, the "magic" works completely differently, the world's bestiary isn't the same either. And no real-world base in Berserk like in Ars Magica. It's really not very similar. You might as well go all out and say that Berserk is like D&D. :schierke:

xechnao said:
As far as what you say about citadels, well right now in Bersek because of the GH's plan wizards have lost their status. But in the past wizards were really much more important in Berserk.

You don't know about that... Nothing says that once "magi" were ruling the world. Nowadays they can't be seen at all while before witches like Flora travelled the land, it doesn't mean magic users were everywhere. And there's no magical order of Hermes either.

Berserk is about Guts anyway, not wizards. Guts the swordsman and Griffith, Casca, etc. It's about characters in a story, and these characters don't fit the setting of Ars Magica very well.

xechnao said:
Not to talk about the 2 citadels we know that seem to have to do something with it.

What? Really, I think you're trying too hard here, as usual. There aren't any "covenants" in Berserk...

xechnao said:
What has happened in Berserk could happen in the Ars Magica universe too, it is possible. Same about the opposite.

Nope. It's only possible by stretching your imagination, but they really don't have much in common. If you excessively distorted and defaced both creations, they'd look sort of similar in the dark, but that doesn't mean much.
 
I am not talking about the plot of the works. I am confronting their cosmologic structure. While in Berserk the protagonist is a swordsman, most people in both universes are not wizards, yet magic is still the force that moves or has moved things.
And for the dark atmosphere see the 3rd Ed of Ars Magica.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
I am confronting their cosmologic structure.

So, what about apostles, the God Hand, beherits, Occultations, the Idea of Evil, the four Elemental Kings? These and especially the first 5 are the main elements of Berserk's universe as it's defined for a good part of the story. Also, in Berserk anybody can become a magic user (see Farnese), but not in Ars Magica, where "magic whispers to those precious few who possess the Gift". There are also places with more "magic power" than others in Ars Magica, that connect to different time periods, etc. Basically, "magic" is different in both worlds (with all the "regio" and magic auras business in Ars Magica), and Ars Magica's magic system with its 15 arts doesn't resemble Berserk's magic much. I don't think Schierke and Daiba fit very well into the Ars Magica world...

xechnao said:
While in Berserk the protagonist is a swordsman, most people in both universes are not wizards, yet magic is still the force that moves or has moved things.

The world of Ars Magica revolves around magi, Berserk's world revolves around evil beings and Guts, a swordsman. You can't really compare the number of magic users in Berserk and Ars Magica, and again, nothing says that the Berserk world was once shaped by wizard-like magic users. Like I said, both works have "magic" in them, but so do a lot of games, books, movies, etc.

xechnao said:
And for the dark atmosphere see the 3rd Ed of Ars Magica.

I don't see how the 3rd edition of Ars Magica, published in the mid-90s, would have influenced Berserk that started in 1989. Or maybe it's the other way around? Berserk influenced Ars Magica! :schierke:
 
Aazealh said:
So, what about apostles, the God Hand, beherits, Occultations, the Idea of Evil, the four Elemental Kings? These and especially the first 5 are the main elements of Berserk's universe as it's defined for a good part of the story. Also, in Berserk anybody can become a magic user (see Farnese), but not in Ars Magica, where "magic whispers to those precious few who possess the Gift". There are also places with more "magic power" than others in Ars Magica, that connect to different time periods, etc. Basically, "magic" is different in both worlds (with all the "regio" and magic auras business in Ars Magica), and Ars Magica's magic system with its 15 arts doesn't resemble Berserk's magic much. I don't think Schierke and Daiba fit very well into the Ars Magica world...

The world of Ars Magica revolves around magi, Berserk's world revolves around evil beings and Guts, a swordsman. You can't really compare the number of magic users in Berserk and Ars Magica, and again, nothing says that the Berserk world was once shaped by wizard-like magic users. Like I said, both works have "magic" in them, but so do a lot of games, books, movies, etc.

I don't see how the 3rd edition of Ars Magica, published in the mid-90s, would have influenced Berserk that started in 1989. Or maybe it's the other way around? Berserk influenced Ars Magica! :schierke:

Miura didn't start to explain things cosmologically until the late 90s.
Initially in the manga we had apostles, which were humans corupted by the magic of some deamons, and destined to serve those deamons in offering and fullfiling sacrifices.
That was Miura's first touch of fantasy.
Much later he added all the other stuff.

The above "situation", I think, was allready given in Ars Magica. I don't remember exactly where, I could use some time to have a search. Perhaps I am wrong, though.

As far as the third edition goes, I mentioned it just to make clear that it is possible to make Berserk as a dark fantasy saga in Ars Magica and vive versa.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Miura didn't start to explain things cosmologically until the late 90s.
Initially in the manga we had apostles, which were humans corupted by the magic of some deamons, and destined to serve those deamons in offering and fullfiling sacrifices.

Uhh not really, no. The first 3 volumes have the God Hand and an explanation of how things work. Not so many elements are missing. Elements that have nothing to do with Ars Magica anyway, so what's your point? Are you making an amalgam of my post? And "deamons", eh? Not the same demons than the ones featured in Ars Magica.

xechnao said:
As far as the third edition goes, I mentioned it just to make clear that it is possible to make Berserk as a dark fantasy saga in Ars Magica and vive versa.

Yeah well, that wasn't successful at making anything clear. Like I said at first, I think you're just trying too hard to find corresponding elements. Now people can judge by themselves.
 
Aazealh said:
Uhh not really, no. The first 3 volumes have the God Hand and an explanation of how things work. Not so many elements are missing. Elements that have nothing to do with Ars Magica anyway, so what's your point? Are you making an amalgam of my post? And "deamons", eh? Not the same demons than the ones featured in Ars Magica.

What did I miss that my post merits this denial? Are you just talking about the vortex of souls? Because there wasn't anything else I missed cosmologically in the first three volumes, I think.

And by saying GH are not the same deamons what are you implying too? That they had a different name and a hair cut? Or about causality? Yes, causality was the plot actually and the plot is Miura's work, I think I have been clear about this part allready.
As far as the hair cut goes...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
What did I miss that my post merits this denial?

I mentioned the God Hand, apostles, beherits, etc. You said Miura didn't start explaining things before the late 90s, so I corrected you. These elements were introduced and explained early in the series. Also, this doesn't change the fact that these things have nothing in common with Ars Magica. I don't see what isn't clear.

xechnao said:
And by saying GH are not the same deamons what are you implying too? That they had a different name and a hair cut?

I'm implying that you misspell the word (daemon), and that Ars Magica's demons are different from the God Hand, whose members aren't specifically called demons anyway. Why aren't the apostles demons in this case? You're just relating elements that have nothing special in common, I don't think there's much more to say. Why not talk about the divine powers from various religions used by priests in Ars Magica (and dissociated from magic)? That sure doesn't sound like Berserk.

xechnao said:
Or about causality? Yes, causality was the plot actually and the plot is Miura's work

Causality still is an intrinsic part of Berserk's universe, and doesn't exist in Ars Magica.
 
Aazealh said:
I'm implying that you misspell the word (daemon), and that Ars Magica's demons are different from the God Hand, whose members aren't specifically called demons anyway.

So I was right. It was about the way they are called and the spelling. This isn't that important for me though.

Aazealh said:
Why not talk about the divine powers from various religions used by priests in Ars Magica (and dissociated from magic)?

What are you talking about? Religion in Berserk has fully been diddociated from magic.

Aazealh said:
Causality still is an intrinsic part of Berserk's universe, and doesn't exist in Ars Magica.

Yes, but it is not a functinally dynamic part of it. It is just a nomination or explanation if you like of the plot hook. As it could be God's will for example.
For narrating a story having to do with this stuff it is much cooler than the latter though.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
So I was right. It was about the way they are called and the spelling. This isn't that important for me though.

No, if you knew how to read, you'd understand that it's about everything. They don't have anything in common aside from being "bad guys". Don't worry though, I know that nothing's important to you as long as it doesn't fit your opinion.

xechnao said:
What are you talking about? Religion in Berserk has fully been diddociated from magic.

You don't understand, and apparently you don't play Ars Magica, nor know much about it. Priests have powers related to their gods in Ars Magica, like magic but dissociated from it.

xechnao said:
Yes, but it is not a functinally dynamic part of it.

You mean you don't see causality appear and do stuff? If so, great point. :schierke: And it's still part of the cosmology, like the gods in Ars Magica, or the auras.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
I thought I'd break up the xech/aaz post pattern. But I will say this.

This has no more influence than any other story with a medeval setting with fantasy elements.
 
Aazealh said:
No, if you knew how to read, you'd understand that it's about everything. They don't have anything in common aside from being "bad guys". Don't worry though, I know that nothing's important to you as long as it doesn't fit your opinion.

You don't understand, and apparently you don't play Ars Magica, nor know much about it. Priests have powers related to their gods in Ars Magica, like magic but dissociated from it.


Well, it depends how one plays his campaign I guess.

As far as priests go, the powers they know(think?) they have are related to their aspect of the world, which is related to their faith. But it is not that there are different Gods really, like a true pantheon or something.
There is just the distinction of pure magic and magic that has to do with man. Much like it is in Berserk. The Elemental Kings are natural, pure magic existances while the GH have to do with human's will.

Aazealh said:
You mean you don't see causality appear and do stuff? If so, great point. :schierke: And it's still part of the cosmology, like the gods in Ars Magica, or the auras.

I mean causality is the name of the deus ex machina of the plot. Since Berserk is fantasy and a story needed to be narrated in a cool manner, causality is such a cool background. But this is what it is, just the background.
By cosmology one means defined mechanisms that one could put together in different ways and get possible different results. Causality does not belong there.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
There is just the distinction of pure magic and magic that has to do with man. Much like it is in Berserk.

It's not like Berserk at all. See how far we're going.

xechnao said:
The Elemental Kings are natural, pure magic existances while the GH have to do with human's will.

Really, that's just a stretch, and that's not making any point. So the "demons" are also the ones priests pray to in Ars Magica? Because it's really in the text you quoted, from Ars Magica's homepage: "divine power is accessible through prayer". And I guess there are only 5 demons, and they were all humans once? It would take days to consign all the contradictions in this comparison you're making.

xechnao said:
I mean causality is the name of the deus ex machina of the plot.

It's like you to simplify/complexify stuff when needed.

xechnao said:
By cosmology one means defined mechanisms that one could put together in different ways and get possible different results. Causality does not belong there.

Cosmology is the science of the world or universe. Nothing more, nothing less. Causality is a big part of Berserk's universe, whatever you may say won't change this fact, and so it matters a lot. I don't see you commenting on the rest of what I said, I imagine it's not important to you. :schierke:
 
Aazealh said:
Because it's really in the text you quoted, from Ars Magica's homepage: "divine power is accessible through prayer".

Well, this tells nothing really of how it is in Ars Magica. I was trying to explain better above...

Aazealh said:
And I guess there are only 5 demons, and they were all humans once?
Yes, there is this too. Only that it's not just 5. Is this important?


Let me quote you some stuff from a site:

In Ars Magica, are the pagan gods Magical, Faerie, or what?
There is plenty of confusion on this matter because the answer has changed over the lifetime of the Ars Magica line. At various times, different supplements have stated or hinted that the pagan gods were magical beings (2nd Edition), powerful faeries (4th Edition), or even demons (3rd Edition Tribunal books).

In ArM5, most of the pagan gods are powerful faeries, but there may be the occasional magical being mixed in. ArM5 draws the distinction between the Magical and Faerie Realms differently than did previous editions.

The ArM5 rule book doesn't explicitly say whether pagan gods are faeries, but it does give guidance on how to classify supernatural creatures:

"Faeries are creatures drawn in some way from the imagination of the human race." (p. 187).
"The Magic realm encompasses a wide range of spirits. ... [Magic] spirits include spirits of natural places and natural phenomena." (p. 184)
"[A]ny creature that is powerful, alien, and indifferent to human beings is part of the Magic realm." (p. 184).
Page 184 goes on to note that a few magical spirits were once human and have become a part of the Magic realm; some believe the Greek god Hermes falls into this category.
The Ars Magica Line Editor has offered some further clarification:

The ArM5 distinction is that Faerie is fundamentally concerned with humanity, while Magic fundamentally doesn't care. Since most pagan gods are concerned with humanity, they are mostly Faerie. Nature tends to be Magic rather than Faerie in ArM5; the distinction is definitely not the same as it was in ArM4 and earlier. Mind you, the problem with the earlier distinction is that it was deeply unclear what the distinction *was*, and over time just about everything got dumped into Faerie.

- David Chart, Berkeley Ars Magica List, 29 September 2005.

Bear in mind that faeries are not the only things that care about humans. Divine and Infernal beings certainly care, too. It is more correct to say that magical creatures are the only supernatural beings that don't care about humans. Yet the Faerie realm is unique in that it somehow draws its existence or power from human imagination. The Divine, Infernal, and Magic realms would go on existing if there were no humans at all.

So, the pagan gods are officially classed as Faerie because they have a close relationship with humans. The god Hermes might be an exception, as a human who has gained immortality and become a Magic spirit. Pagans in Mythic Europe worshipped gods, not Realms, so it is possible that each pantheon may have contained a mix of both Faerie and Magical beings.

All of this raises the question, to which Realm should a supernatural being belong? It's pretty clear that shoemaker's elves would be faeries and beasts of virtue would be magical, but there are grey areas like nymphs. A nymph is a nature spirit, but if you've read any Greek or Roman mythology, you will see that nymphs often have a lot of interest in humans (and vice versa). A useful question might be, is a nymph more like some kind of elemental spirit, or more like a very minor goddess?

One thing is clear: just because an older-edition sourcebook says a particular creature is magical or faerie, does not mean that this is still true in Fifth Edition. Until the relevant Realms of Power books come out (one can presume they will shed more light on the matter), it is best to make one's own best judgement based on the ArM5 Realms chapter.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
You really do just scratch and claw your way to make some kind of desperate point don't you? You know, this is your number one problem. You just pull shite out of your ass and trying to make it into something....

We got no problems with you speculating and things like that but when your theories are proven nil you retort and don't want to accept defeat. Just don't get you sometimes man.
 
SaiyajinNoOuji said:
You really do just scratch and claw your way to make some kind of desperate point don't you? You know, this is your number one problem. You just pull shite out of your ass and trying to make it into something....

We got no problems with you speculating and things like that but when your theories are proven nil you retort and don't want to accept defeat. Just don't get you sometimes man.


It sounds like you are just trolling here. For you, this thread is so you read the message on the long post above and just coment on it, if you like.
For everything other than this (ie commenting on myself) feel free to PM me.
Hope, it is clear.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
xechnao said:
It sounds like you are just trolling here. For you, this thread is so you read the message on the long post above and just coment on it, if you like.
For everything other than this (ie commenting on myself) feel free to PM me.
Hope, it is clear.

Going through your broken English is agonizing at times, you know.

So wait. In this fantasy there are fairies? gods? and other mystical elements?? AND it takes place in a older setting?! You're RIGHT! EGADS! Its exactly like berserk. Man, I hope Miura doesn't get caught or he's gonna get SUED!
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
You're RIGHT! EGADS! Its exactly like berserk. Man, I hope Miura doesn't get caught or he's gonna get SUED!

Not so buddy, since the ArM5 implementing all this messy stuff was released in 2004, Miura's the one doing the suing. I'm emailing Hakusensha as we speak!! :troll:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
Not so buddy, since the ArM5 implementing all this messy stuff was released in 2004, Miura's the one doing the suing. I'm emailing Hakusensha as we speak!! :troll:

Holy moly! Don't do that aaz! If people start suing each other based on xech's claims there will be no more fantasy novels. EVER!
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
xechnao said:
It sounds like you are just trolling here. For you, this thread is so you read the message on the long post above and just coment on it, if you like.
For everything other than this (ie commenting on myself) feel free to PM me.
Hope, it is clear.
No actually I was reading this thread and everytime Aaz pointed out that no, this "Ars Magica" is not like Berserk but you still persist on saying that it is. I believe you have some kind of complex, I think you need help.

Also like I have mentioned in many many many posts before, you do this with every subject... wether its war, berserk, medical process, etc... you think you have the only right answer and that everything you say is golden.

You use your bullshit and try to pass it off as being well read and intelligent. All in all though, you are just a very big annoyance that won't go away. have a nice day though!  :troll:
 
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