Ars Magica Possible Berserk Influence

Aazealh said:
Not so buddy, since the ArM5 implementing all this messy stuff was released in 2004, Miura's the one doing the suing. I'm emailing Hakusensha as we speak!! :troll:

Actuallly, these stuff are there from the very start. That is 1987 or 1988 I think. It is so that each edition might displace or make clearer a paramater regarding the others. The long post above suggests to take as canon the exact parameters of the last edition, since it is the one commercial and active I guess - active in means of supplements. 

Anyway, this thread is not about sueing as this doesn't make any sense really. Besides, every artist has it's influences. It is made as a informative only POV stake. 
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
xechnao said:
Actuallly, these stuff are there from the very start. That is 1987 or 1988 I think. It is so that each edition might displace or make clearer a paramater regarding the others. The long post above suggests to take as canon the exact parameters of the last edition, since it is the one commercial and active I guess - active in means of supplements.

Anyway, this thread is not about sueing as this doesn't make any sense really. Besides, every artist has it's influences. It is made as a informative only POV stake.

Wow, so fantasy stories were invented in 1987-88, huh? Thanks for the history lesson...
And suing does make sense in the satirical context I put it in, but then again you already knew that, right? Or has satire yet to be invented?
 

Meathook

The World Eaters are here to save us!
I just joined this topic and was reading though the posts.  And so i just wanna make sure i have this correct.  Ars Magica was created around 1987-1988?  If I'm wrong please correct me but didn't berserk start in like 1983-1984.  Give or take 1 or two years.  So wouldn't that still make it 3 or 4 years ahead of this RPG system?
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
I'm just go ahead and say it: Everything that has any fantasy or medeval elements (including the actual time period) is a total copy off berserk.

There, i said it. Prove me wrong.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Actuallly, these stuff are there from the very start.

That's not what the text you quoted says.

xechnao said:
Besides, every artist has it's influences.

Yeah, and I think we know Ars Magica didn't influence Berserk.

Meathook said:
If I'm wrong please correct me but didn't berserk start in like 1983-1984.

Nope, the series started in 1989, the prototype was published in 1988. Miura had already the idea of Berserk in mind in highschool though. And Ars Magica came in 1988 apparently, the same year it won a RPG award.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
This may sound presumptuous, but do japanese even play that nerdy role-playing shite? I know fantasy was big in the USA in the 80s, but I'm not so sure about internationally. Seems to me like the possibility of Miura even knowing about Ars Magica even today is unlikely.

Then again, there could be some huge, freaky sub-culture of role-players in Japan.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I want to know if Miura plays Fantasy Football and gambles on sports. :guts:

www.betonsports.com
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Walter said:
Seems to me like the possibility of Miura even knowing about Ars Magica today is unlikely.

Yeah, I didn't really want to say it, but I think the same. The fact he never mentioned anything like that having influenced him counts too, I don't think he has some secret major influences outside of what he's publicly said...
 
Walter said:
This may sound presumptuous, but do japanese even play that nerdy role-playing shite? I know fantasy was big in the USA in the 80s, but I'm not so sure about internationally.  Seems to me like the possibility of Miura even knowing about Ars Magica even today is unlikely.

Then again, there could be some huge, freaky sub-culture of role-players in Japan.


CnC said:
Wow, so fantasy novels stories were invented in 1987-88, huh? 

You've got a point. My answer is no certainly, but a commercial trend was establishing popularly in the late 70s and 80s. Sure, there were Conan and LotR allready as novels but it was with some films, d&d and rpgs and that fantasy becomes much more important.
What I am telling is that if there hadn't been the popularity of the above and what rpgs established (because with rpgs the genre has a basis to expand it's body so much more popularly because people can play it actually) I doupt Miura's Berserk would be like what it is today.
But this is out of topic. The topic is what kind of fantasy work could have influenced more Berserk's one or if Ars Magica could have been one. Or if you like what is the work that has influenced Berserk more.
To make an example let's take Star Wars. In Star Wars you have a magic and inexhaustable power (the force) that people can learn to draw upon so to gain the ability to perform supernatural feats to help their needs. The fact is that this special ability could corrupt people that drew on it. So you have an order (Jedi) that uses the force in a moral way only so to try to protect people from whatever could go wrong regarding the use of the "force" by people generally.
Now, populations or communities of people are not so important in what can move the story. It's the force that is the most important thing.
Berserk is not like that right now. People and what they believe is important. Petroil is not the only super force anymore: it is information that is important too.
People are much more important in Berserk. How people, communities, populations are. How populations believe and what this means is much more in focus than just one and unique super force, yet power and corruption in Berserk are still just one thing. But the first part of the above sentence is nothing but important. So much important that it distinctly forms a differently working universe and cosmology. So even if both are fantasy the cosmology of one is not compatible with the cosmology of the other. Miura uses fantasy to incorporate and explain more elements of modern society than Lucas.  
And I believe that Lucas' fantasy is much more near to Berserk than Tolkin's, which I can hardly find it has anything in common with Berserk's one (I expect now that this is debatable and propably worth debating for so I wouldn't mind if you go on and open a discussion on this matter).  
Now, let's take d&d. Well, this is a world where people by hacking & slashing beasts can raise to super status.
I don't see in this any conflict with Berserk's universe other than the important theme of d&d that humans are not the main people but rather there are various different races, some of them naturally evil. Well, Berserk does not have this theme really. So, since cosmologic balances are distictly different I guess they have to also be cosmologically different.
Now, let's take Ars Magica...or see from what it is presented above if there could be important cosmological similarities or differences with Berserk.


Aazealh said:
That's not what the text you quoted says.

Well it is not very clear on the subject you brought on since nothing is 100% clear about the universerse's cosmology, yet people that play want to have most things figured. It is still based on the same original thing though that was published in 1988 as you said.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Lucas wanted to create a mythological story and he used space in a Buck Rogers or other serial point of view as a backdrop. There really is no point in overanalyzing it, not to mention it has little to do with the topic. Its relation to this topic is actually very similar to the relationship between Ars magica and berserk.

You can draw upon any story that could be fantasy or contains fantasy elements, it doesn't mean that said story is somehow related to berserk or is drawn upon by Miura in the creation of berserk (Unless stated). And since such a statement doesn't exist, this topic is moot.

Also, if you're gonna quote me, quote me correctly. I had removed the typo in the statement HOURS ago (literally minutes after creation).
 
CnC said:
Lucas wanted to create a mythological story and he used space in a Buck Rogers or other serial point of view as a backdrop.  There really is no point in overanalyzing it, not to mention it has little to do with the topic.  Its relation to this topic is actually very similar to the relationship between Ars magica and berserk.

You can draw upon any story that could be fantasy or contains fantasy elements, it doesn't mean that said story is somehow related to berserk or is drawn upon by Miura in the creation of berserk (Unless stated).  And since such a statement doesn't exist, this topic is moot.

Actually there is a statement or rather a comment by Miura's part on Star Wars.
Other than that I have to say that you don't have to be so drastically negative to this thread since Tolkin's influences for example have been the subject of extensive analysis by those interested.

Now, what I want to make clear is that you are mixing two different subjects in a way that doesn't help the thread's purpose. Story or plot being the one and cosmology the other.
I was trying to make clear with the above analysis that even if there are various works of fantasy before Berserk most of them don't seem to have the chance to be seen as possible profound influences upon it.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
What I am telling is that if there hadn't been the popularity of the above and what rpgs established I doupt Miura's Berserk would be like what it is today.

Well I sure don't doubt that it would be the same, and you certainly can't come up with any convincing element about it. Also, there wasn't just Howard and Tolkien before D&D was created, stop making things up.

xechnao said:
what is the work that has influenced Berserk more.

Guin Saga.

xechnao said:
Actually there is a statement or rather a comment by Miura's part on Star Wars.

Miura just said he likes the original Star Wars trilogy, that's why he made a few Star Wars pun in Berserk. He also likes old Japanese sentai shows.

xechnao said:
you are mixing two different subjects in a way that doesn't help the thread's purpose

To be honest xech, that's rather your speciality.

xechnao said:
I was trying to make clear with the above analysis that even if there are various works of fantasy before Berserk most of them don't seem to have the chance to be seen as possible profound influences upon it.

Yeah, and Ars Magica sure doesn't seem to, in everybody's opinion but yours.
 
Aazealh said:
Miura just said he likes the original Star Wars trilogy, that's why he made a few Star Wars pun in Berserk.
Yeap, I know that.

Aazealh said:
Well I sure don't doubt that it would be the same, and you certainly can't come up with any convincing element about it. Also, there wasn't just Howard and Tolkien before D&D was created, stop making things up.

Yeah, you stop making the thing that I make things up. I never said there was just Howard and Tolkien. I just mentioned the most famous ones I know.

Aazealh said:
To be honest xech, that's rather your speciality.
Yeah, so your point here? That my answers suck since they are made by me?

Aazealh said:
Yeah, and Ars Magica sure doesn't seem to, in everybody's opinion but yours.

Still yeah, if opinions are based on the above premise, I believe you can be right.
Still though, Ars Magica's universe structure has many similarities with Berserk's one.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
I never said there was just Howard and Tolkien. I just mentioned the most famous ones I know.

Then you should have precised it I think.

xechnao said:
Yeah, so your point here? That my answers suck since they are made by me?

Just that you should apply your own advices to yourself.

xechnao said:
Ars Magica's universe structure has many similarities with Berserk's one.

I don't think so. Back to the original point. :void:
 
Sorry, but your point about applying my own advices to myself has nothing to do with this thread really.

Aazealh said:
I don't think so. Back to the original point. :void:

Well, I did try a bit, at least. I did post three long posts trying to precise why Berserk and Ars Magica can be very near and even nearer than other works of fantasy.
If that wasn't enough for you, I' ll see if I can do something more.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Sorry, but your point about applying my own advices to myself has nothing to do with this thread really.

It has to do with you and with this thread, or any thread you post in. Capito?
 
Aazealh said:
It has to do with you and with this thread, or any thread you post in. Capito?

Yes, that you primaly judge threads and posts by who is making them (ie me) and not by the actual message of the posts. Sorry again, but I don't agree with this.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
xechnao said:
Yes, that you primaly judge threads and posts by who is making them (ie me) and not by the actual message of the posts. Sorry but I don't agree with this.

I judge them by their content only, and you happen to often "mix two different subjects in a way that doesn't help the thread's purpose". It has nothing to with you as an individual, it's just something you do frequently as a member, and I think it applies to this thread. Now please stop the martyr act... No need to go on forever about this.
 
Aazealh said:
I judge them by their content only, and you happen to often "mix two different subjects in a way that doesn't help the thread's purpose". It has nothing to with you as an individual, it's just something you do frequently as a member, and I think it applies to this thread. Now please stop the martyr act... No need to go on forever about this.

Ok, then it should be something I wrote somewhere in this thread and I didn't notice that I was mixing two different subjects in a way that doesn't help the thread's purpose.
Please tell me where it is, so I can see if I can clear it up.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
See here... he continues to sturggle even though all his points have been proven wrong, he is the one that fights against fate... maybe Xech IS GUTS! :isidro:

Fight the machine Xechnao, fight the machine!
 

Meathook

The World Eaters are here to save us!
Hell i got the mark of sacrifice branded in to my neck, and I'm going to use a word to describe Xech. And that word is over obsessive. For keeping this thread going for so long, and(!) for trying to find a link between the two.

I'll say your a hard worker, but give it up, your grasping at straws ... in the darkness ... while your hands are frostbitten and numb with no feeling ... while underwater ... in space.
 
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