Story Discussion: Dark Horse readers only [NO SPOILERS]

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Walter

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Glad you're enjoying it. Vols 8-9 are the real turning points in the series, and its all really suprising and awesome from here on out, if you're a first timer. Have fun :guts:
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
I'm really excited for those of you who are reading the manga for the first time. I just re-read it for the third time and I'm finding myself liking it more everytime I read through. And for those that have seen the anime and are reading the manga for the first time, there's more that the anime cut out ahead. :guts:
 
R

-rob-

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SMZKAH said:
Well, I ran out to my local Borders today and picked up Volume 9, got home, got comfortable, and read it cover to cover. All I can say is HOLY FRICKIN CRAP!!!!!  I knew the anime left a lot out of the storyline, but there were things happening in volume nine that I never would have imagined, as well as the actual characters that were replaced by the anime.  I dont wanna spoil anything for anyone who hasn't read it yet, but I loved it.  Guts is such a badass.  And I definately have a new found appreciation for Silat.  Hey, if you haven't done so already, do yourself a favor and read volume 9.  And so the countdown begins for Volume 10.


SMZKAH you havent read the whole series yet? :???: I thought I could of swore I saw you discussing 1 of the current episodes?
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Hehe, just put in my order for Vol. 9. :zodd: Even though I re-read it for the 7th or 8th time a couple of weeks ago, I still can't wait to see how Dark Horse handled it. Always interesting to see different translations (although hopefully not TOO different. Can't wait 'til Vol. 10 comes out in January '06. Vol. 10's cover is one of my favorites (I think it's the only cover with Skully on it, too :SK:).
 
Yeah, its an awesome cover, and I agree Skullknight should be on more covers, but I don't think I would change any one of them.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Zelz said:
Yeah, its an awesome cover, and I agree Skullknight should be on more covers, but I don't think I would change any one of them.

Oh I definitely don't want to change any of the covers, they're all great. I just hope to see him on a cover again sometime soon. He doesn't stick around long enough at times to put him on one, but that's no excuse. :beast:
 
COULD BE A SPOILER

Aazealh said:
Noticing that only now, I just want to tell you that volume 9, 10 and 11 aren't wasted time even if you've watched the anime a hundred times. Believe me, they're worth their price.

that statement is more than right.

issue number 9 was amazing and was high quality. there is a lot of sex in this issue. plus now you can truly see how much was cut out of the anime, such as characters being changed and a few other things like the introduction of a very important character SKULLKNIGHT :SK:. its as if the anime at this point is only 75% of the full story. so if you enjoyed the anime, and want the manga in English. i would suggest to pick up. (plus there is a whole lotta sex in this issue lol :carcus::troll:)

issue 10 is still set for 1/25/06 (the shit is really about to hit the fan) plus get ready for a few new apostle :void:


i also want to start pointing out that people should post what they think about the manga now that its a first time that a lot of people are finally getting to read it in English.

also as soon as i hear about a release date for issue number 11 ill post it.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
DarthVenom said:
(plus there is a whole lotta sex in this issue lol :carcus::troll:)

:schierke:

DarthVenom said:
issue 10 is still set for 1/25/06 (the shit is really about to hit the fan) plus get ready for a few new apostle :void:

Cool, thanks for the info. I saw on TFAW (the site Dark Horse sells their products through) that it was gonna be released sometime in January. Now I know the exact date and can plan ahead (for what? no idea).
 
Rhombaad said:
it was a joke 8). ahh well i guess it wasn't funny :troll: :troll:

anyway,

Rhombaad said:
Cool, thanks for the info. I saw on TFAW (the site Dark Horse sells their products through) that it was gonna be released sometime in January. Now I know the exact date and can plan ahead (for what? no idea).
no problem man :guts:, ill be posting every other date in the Hurry up DarkHorse thread though.

as for issue 9, is it your first time reading it. i don't know i guess since i finally got to read and see what SkullKnight was saying in English made me pretty damn happy.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
DarthVenom said:
it was a joke 8). ahh well i guess it wasn't funny :troll: :troll:

Seconded! :troll:

DarthVenom said:
as for issue 9, is it your first time reading it. i don't know i guess since i finally got to read and see what SkullKnight was saying in English made me pretty damn happy.

I have actually just finished re-reading the entire series for the 4th time up to the current episodes, but I ain't gonna spoil any of it here (considering the title of the thread and that I fear a deduction in post counts from our friendly Admins :beast:).
 
I just got done with volume 8,9 and things heat up dont they for  :guts:  :casca:but dark horse sure takes there time realeasing the next volume.
 
Just finished volume nine...wow!

So, we finally get to meet that Skull Knight I hear so much about! Or in this version, "The Knight of Skeleton". That translation seems especially strange here, since it's not the name he introduces himself with, Guts just blurts it out. He sees a guy dressed in skeleton armor, and arbitrarily decides to call him "The Knight of Skeleton". Regardless of his name, the character is very cool. I imagine his dialogue is very difficult to translate, due to his cryptic phrases and the future events he has to foreshadow. This is one episode where I'm VERY curious as to how well Duane Johnson's translation lines up with the intent of the original. Of course, with Skull Knight it's hard to know the intent, which is why the translation is so tricky!

The King and Charlotte. That was just disturbing. I wonder where they're going with that storyline, how long until we see them again?

Guts vs. Silat. Meh. This is one area where I prefer the anime version. In the anime, the fights seem fairly realistic (well, aside from the 200-lb sword wielding, 100-man slaying, gallons-of-blood-leaking guy, that is). In the manga, they seem a bit too 'dragonball', if you will. One character explains the moves they're about to perform, and then the other character explains how they countered the first character's move. It seems a bit silly, and takes me out of the story. There have been similar fights in previous volumes, but this one is just the worst to me. I hope this trend doesn't continue throughout the series.

Guts and Casca...beautiful! The whole scene was even better than the anime, which I thought would be impossible. Easily my favorite part of this volume. It's too bad the whole Gambino/Donovan confession was left out of the anime, it was something we really needed to see. On a shallower note...take a look at Guts' abs on p.220! Some guys have a 6-pack, Guts has a frickin 10-pack!

Great volume overall, my second-favorite so far next to #8.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Frog said:
So, we finally get to meet that Skull Knight I hear so much about! Or in this version, "The Knight of Skeleton". That translation seems especially strange here, since it's not the name he introduces himself with, Guts just blurts it out. He sees a guy dressed in skeleton armor, and arbitrarily decides to call him "The Knight of Skeleton".

my link in my post right above yours is their explanation for the name...

Frog said:
The King and Charlotte. That was just disturbing. I wonder where they're going with that storyline, how long until we see them again?

A while, won't give it away for spoiler reasons

Frog said:
Guts vs. Silat. Meh. This is one area where I prefer the anime version. In the anime, the fights seem fairly realistic (well, aside from the 200-lb sword wielding, 100-man slaying, gallons-of-blood-leaking guy, that is). In the manga, they seem a bit too 'dragonball', if you will. One character explains the moves they're about to perform, and then the other character explains how they countered the first character's move. It seems a bit silly, and takes me out of the story. There have been similar fights in previous volumes, but this one is just the worst to me. I hope this trend doesn't continue throughout the series.

Guts mocks this kind of fighting though, by just kicking ass. And don't worry, Berserk has yet to fall into that pitfall of constantly naming techniques...
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
CnC said:
And don't worry, Berserk has yet to fall into that pitfall of constantly naming techniques...

The one time Adon tried he was hit in the face by Guts' sword before he finished saying the name. And rightly so. :void:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Frog said:
He sees a guy dressed in skeleton armor, and arbitrarily decides to call him "The Knight of Skeleton".

Well, it's really what he does, except he calls him Skull Knight.

Frog said:
Guts vs. Silat. Meh. This is one area where I prefer the anime version. In the anime, the fights seem fairly realistic (well, aside from the 200-lb sword wielding, 100-man slaying, gallons-of-blood-leaking guy, that is). In the manga, they seem a bit too 'dragonball', if you will. One character explains the moves they're about to perform, and then the other character explains how they countered the first character's move.

That seems to be a pretty baseless assertion to me... The fights taking place in this part of the story in the anime are quasi-inexistant and pretty much worthless, just Guts killing subpar enemies. Silat names the weapons he uses and talks big about them (intimidation + information for the reader), and Guts makes fun of him. Oh, and Judo recognizing the chakrams. I think it's quite a stretch to compare it to Dragon Ball... And as far as realism goes, Silat's weapons are all based on real, historical weapons (from India, see this thread), so I'd like to know exactly what's so unrealistic about them.
 
my link in my post right above yours is their explanation for the name...

Yeah, I read the post from Chris, interesting read! I just thought it was particularly funny in this context, where Guts is naming him. If he had exclaimed "A Skeleton Knight!", that would seem like a more natural reaction, but "The Knight of Skeleton!" makes it sound like he's reading the name off the action figure box.

The one time Adon tried he was hit in the face by Guts' sword before he finished saying the name. And rightly so.

Hahaha! Yeah, I loved that part.

That seems to be a pretty baseless assertion to me... The fights taking place in this part of the story in the anime are quasi-inexistant and pretty much worthless, just Guts killing subpar enemies.

That's pretty much what I meant! I didn't really enjoy the Guts/Silat fight that much, so I preferred the anime version where he fought the nobodies. Guts shows up and saves them, okay, now lets get to the Guts/Casca action!

Silat names the weapons he uses and talks big about them (intimidation + information for the reader), and Guts makes fun of him. Oh, and Judo recognizing the chakrams. I think it's quite a stretch to compare it to Dragon Ball... And as far as realism goes, Silat's weapons are all based on real, historical weapons (from India, see this thread), so I'd like to know exactly what's so unrealistic about them.

Yeah, I guess the Dragonball comparison is a bit much, it's just that I haven't seen/read much anime/manga besides Berserk to compare it to. It certainly isn't as over the top as Dragonball is, but I get a bit of that vibe from some of the dialogue. The part that didn't feel realistic to me was how they stand around talking so much before and during the battle, I wasn't talking about the weapons. What really makes me cringe is how Silat will explain what he is doing, and then explain how Guts is avoiding it, and then what he's going to do next, etc...
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Well its one thing to describe (in a way) whats happening from the perspective of one of the people fighting. Miura's extremely good at drawing the action, but I suppose the commentary helps nail whats happening in the fight. Its another thing to have the people _STOP_ fighting (as they do in many an anime, including dbz) and speak to each other about the other's weakness, technique, ect.
Berserk doesn't do that, and it has specific occasions (like the adon fights) where that kind of fighting is specifically made fun of.
 
Yeah, the thing is, if Silat wasn't describing it every step of the way, I might not be able to follow what was going on! So it is sort of necessary for such complex action scenes, but it still bugs me. Maybe I wouldn't mind it if they just had Silat thinking all these things, rather than shouting them at Guts. Or maybe I just prefer my action scenes animated.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Frog said:
Yeah, the thing is, if Silat wasn't describing it every step of the way, I might not be able to follow what was going on! So it is sort of necessary for such complex action scenes, but it still bugs me. Maybe I wouldn't mind it if they just had Silat thinking all these things, rather than shouting them at Guts. Or maybe I just prefer my action scenes animated.

well before all you kids had these nifty translations, I was reading the original japanese editions (while walking uphill in the snow with no shoes on, ect.). I didn't find the action confusing at the time. Its pretty explanatory when you're looking at it... :void:
 
I'm actually not that good at figuring out what's going on in manga/comic books in general...maybe I need to read more of them? In particular, Guts using the 'wind' from his sword to counter the urumi. I doubt I ever would have figured that out if someone hadn't explained it to me.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Frog said:
That's pretty much what I meant! I didn't really enjoy the Guts/Silat fight that much, so I preferred the anime version where he fought the nobodies.

Yeah, and when the Hawks are depicted as being less than nobodies without Guts, including Casca.

Frog said:
Yeah, I guess the Dragonball comparison is a bit much, it's just that I haven't seen/read much anime/manga besides Berserk to compare it to.

Well there's no real need to compare it to something else anyway.

Frog said:
The part that didn't feel realistic to me was how they stand around talking so much before and during the battle, I wasn't talking about the weapons. What really makes me cringe is how Silat will explain what he is doing, and then explain how Guts is avoiding it

They don't talk that much actually, they mostly taunt each other while fighting (which has always been common on the battlefield), and Silat shows off when he "introduces" his weapons. It serves a double purpose like I said (a game of intimidation for Silat who as an exotic fighter acts overconfidently, with Guts not being fooled; and a convenient way of detailing the weapons to the readers for the author), and if you look closely, it's not like it lasts even a minute... Besides, Silat doesn't explain what he's doing, he just says that Guts can't avoid his attacks even with his great skill and that he should surrender, etc. Silat already knows that Guts is very strong, he lost the first time when he attacked him directly (relying on his strength/speed/agility). So this time he's trying to break Guts' confidence and destabilize him.

Frog said:
Yeah, the thing is, if Silat wasn't describing it every step of the way, I might not be able to follow what was going on! So it is sort of necessary for such complex action scenes, but it still bugs me.

Well you legitimize it yourself then, if you wouldn't understand the action without the dialogue explaining it. And if Miura hadn't put dialogue, I guess you would complain that it's too complicated to understand and that the fight should have been explained. :serpico:

I seriously don't think it's hard to get though, but it's different for everybody I guess.
 
Aazealh said:
Yeah, and when the Hawks are depicted as being less than nobodies without Guts, including Casca.

Well, that's really not the impression I got from the anime. The Hawks were in pretty bad shape from being hunted for a year, members deserting, lots of wounded, etc, and Casca had reasons for not being in top shape for that fight. She was overtired, under a lot of pressure trying to replace Griffith, and losing faith in her purpose, to the point of being ready to give up (see her attempted suicide shortly after the battle). It didn't seem necessary to add another super-powerful character to threaten them. Of course, I haven't read past volume 9, so I don't know what Miura's plans are for the Silat character, so I'll wait and see what he does with him.

Aazealh said:
Well there's no real need to compare it to something else anyway.

I was using the Dragonball reference to try to explain how silly I thought the situation was. It doesn't seem realistic to me that the two characters would stand there talking and posturing so much before the fight started. Also, in the anime, it always 'felt' to me like a battlefield, where the manga has more of these one-on-one standoffs, which don't seem quite as realistic to me.

Aazealh said:
They don't talk that much actually, they mostly taunt each other while fighting (which has always been common on the battlefield), and Silat shows off when he "introduces" his weapons. It serves a double purpose like I said (a game of intimidation for Silat who as an exotic fighter acts overconfidently, with Guts not being fooled; and a convenient way of detailing the weapons to the readers for the author), and if you look closely, it's not like it lasts even a minute... Besides, Silat doesn't explain what he's doing, he just says that Guts can't avoid his attacks even with his great skill and that he should surrender, etc. Silat already knows that Guts is very strong, he lost the first time when he attacked him directly (relying on his strength/speed/agility). So this time he's trying to break Guts' confidence and destabilize him.

Actually I think Silat talks quite a bit! "So, captain of the Hawks' Raiders! Think you can defeat my chakram? They will be your doom! What's this? You have defeated my chakram? This is the urumi! It's power is like thunder, it will rip you to shreds! Oh no! You're using your great speed to avoid my attacks! However, you won't be able to avoid it forever! Good grief! You have used a gust of wind from your sword to push my blades aside!" And this is the short version! Of course you can justify it as Silat trying to intimidate Guts, but it's really just the author telling us what's going on, what the weapons are, etc.

Aazealh said:
Well you legitimize it yourself then, if you wouldn't understand the action without the dialogue explaining it. And if Miura hadn't put dialogue, I guess you would complain that it's too complicated to understand and that the fight should have been explained. :serpico:

I can certainly see the reason it's there, but that doesn't change the fact that it pulls me out of the story. It feels more like the author speaking than the characters.

Aazealh said:
I seriously don't think it's hard to get though, but it's different for everybody I guess.

Yeah, I'm just not very good at following action on the page. Anyway, this is just one episode that bugs me, and it's not even that bad. With all this complaining I'm doing, it must sound like I hate Berserk, but I'm really completely in love with it. I'm not really a big fan of manga or comics, but Berserk is a must-read!
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Frog said:
Well, that's really not the impression I got from the anime.

Since the anime is a watered down version of the manga, the "impression" you got from it doesn't really matter you know. The Hawks still lose to nobodies in it, that's a fact, tired or not. They weren't attacked by hundreds of bandits and they didn't fight for hours before starting losing either.

Frog said:
It didn't seem necessary to add another super-powerful character to threaten them.

Well, it seemed necessary to the author. :schierke: Now, I hardly see how Silat is super-powerful, he's just skilled. Less than Guts, that is, but enough to lead a dangerous offensive against the weakened Band of the Hawks.

Frog said:
It doesn't seem realistic to me that the two characters would stand there talking and posturing so much before the fight started.

You see the problem here is that I'm afraid you're not well placed to deem what's realistic or not in a fantasy manga where the main character fights monsters with a sword that's impossible to wield. Warriors taunted each other while fighting historically, granted it was more in the low brow category, but they still did. Silat's moves against Guts were cautious and not reckless, that's what gave him the opportunity to try to put his opponent under psychological pressure.

And you say the talk bother you, but there's quite a bit of talking going on during the one hundred man slaying scene, even in the anime, where Guts goes on about his sword, etc. Does that also bother you?

Concerning the "one-on-one standoffs", I guess you didn't pay enough attention to it... The manga has more detailed melee and battle scenes in general, I recommend you to check it again.

Frog said:
Actually I think Silat talks quite a bit!

Not that much, like I said. Doesn't take more than a few seconds everytime, and they're not standing doing nothing while talking, Silat gets up while Guts tells Casca to get away, he gets his chakrams out, gives them speed, throws them, distracts Guts while they're coming at him so that he doesn't move, Guts catches them, throws them awkwardly, Silat gets the Urumi out, unfolds them, attacks, attacks again, then a pause before the big showdown while Guts takes a defensive stance, then it's the end of the fight.

There's a dynamic in this, if you can't see it without moving picture it's too bad for you, but there still is one.

Frog said:
I can certainly see the reason it's there, but that doesn't change the fact that it pulls me out of the story. It feels more like the author speaking than the characters.

That's your own problem unfortunately, I don't see how it's supposed to look like the author is speaking. Maybe you should try reading harder, or imagine that they're speaking while moving, I don't know.

Frog said:
Yeah, I'm just not very good at following action on the page.

Too bad that pulls you out of the story. I'm afraid I can't help you with this though.
 
You're not gonna let me get away with disliking this scene, are you? Now you've got me reading it again to try and pin down what bugged me about it. It's hard to explain where the dialogue rings true for me and where it makes me roll my eyes without quoting every last speech bubble and explaining it, but the bottom line is I just didn't enjoy this scene the same way I enjoyed the rest of this volume.

I'm enjoying debating with you, I hope more vets come 'slumming' in the Dark Horse topic to discuss with us newbies.

Aazealh said:
Since the anime is a watered down version of the manga, the "impression" you got from it doesn't really matter you know.

I was just responding to the impression you got from the anime. You said the Hawks were less than nobody in the way they were depicted in the anime, however that's not what I see when I watch the anime. Maybe 'nobodies' was the wrong word, they were merely beaten by enemies who had not been introduced as characters. Just because we haven't met someone doesn't mean they can't be tough! And like I said, the Hawks were in pretty bad shape, low morale, low numbers, etc. Anyway, in this one part of the story I enjoyed the anime version, watered down as it may be, more than the original.

Aazealh said:
Well, it seemed necessary to the author. :schierke: Now, I hardly see how Silat is super-powerful, he's just skilled. Less than Guts, that is, but enough to lead a dangerous offensive against the weakened Band of the Hawks.

That emoticon is a spoiler! :troll:

Silat is agile almost to the point of being superhuman. While I admit that there are already other characters like this in Berserk, each time another is added, it feels a bit less 'real' to me.

Aazealh said:
You see the problem here is that I'm afraid you're not well placed to deem what's realistic or not in a fantasy manga where the main character fights monsters with a sword that's impossible to wield.

Maybe I'm not in a good position to argue this, all I can do is give my opinion, explain how the scene makes me feel. While watching the anime, I was able to suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy it. It felt 'real' enough to me that I didn't question it. In the Guts/Silat fight, I just couldn't get into it.

Aazealh said:
And you say the talk bother you, but there's quite a bit of talking going on during the one hundred man slaying scene, even in the anime, where Guts goes on about his sword, etc. Does that also bother you?

The difference in that scene is that they were surrounded, and nobody was making the first move, so Adon had time to give his speeches. In the Guts/Silat fight, there was a battle raging all around them while the two of them had a chat.

Aazealh said:
Concerning the "one-on-one standoffs", I guess you didn't pay enough attention to it... The manga has more detailed melee and battle scenes in general, I recommend you to check it again.

Maybe it's the sound effects? For some reason, the anime always felt like a battlefield. There are some great battles in the manga also. I do have difficulty interpreting the action, however, in any manga or comic book.

Aazealh said:
There's a dynamic in this, if you can't see it without moving picture it's too bad for you, but there still is one.

I think you nailed it here. Your description of the battle helps me see the flow of it better. It seems more drawn-out when I'm reading it, since I spend so much time looking at each panel to figure out what's going on.

Aazealh said:
That's your own problem unfortunately, I don't see how it's supposed to look like the author is speaking. Maybe you should try reading harder, or imagine that they're speaking while moving, I don't know.

In any fiction, the words are the author's. The idea is to give each character personality, convince the reader that these are real people, that these words came from their own minds. In this case, he didn't quite sell it to me.
 
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