Irvine's Apostle Form

Feanor

Nur dem Schwert kannst du vertrauen!
I have no idea how Irvine's apostleform could be.
I find it very difficult to speculate about it.
For example Locus could melt with his horse.
But Irvine is characterized by its bow.
He could not simply merge or melt with his weapon.

What do you think about it?
By the way: Irvine is so cool :puck: :puck: :puck:
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Feanor said:
He could not simply merge or melt with his weapon.

Honestly, I don't see what would stop him from doing so. However, I think it's unlikely, since of the newest Apostles, only Locus has merged with something (not counting the other lancers of the Neo Band of the Hawk) whereas Grunbeld turned into a dragon and didn't merge with anything. I'm excited to see both Irvine's Apostle form and Rakshas'. Ganishka, too, for that matter.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Rhombaad said:
Ganishka, too, for that matter.

Ganishka's already shown his apostle form in vol. 27.

Since Locus' (viagra) lance has unusual properties and it changed along with Locus, I don't think it unlikely that Irvine (who's bow is special without question) would transform along with Irvine.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Feanor said:
I have no idea how Irvine's apostleform could be. I find it very difficult to speculate about it.

Same for Rakshas, and same for Locus before we actually saw him. Here are some older threads on the subject: Mythological transformation | What will Locus, Irvine and Rakshas' apostle forms be?

Rhombaad said:
Grunbeld turned into a dragon and didn't merge with anything.

Actually, it looks like he fused with his armor.

CnC said:
Ganishka's already shown his apostle form in vol. 27.

He changed into fog, which could likely be the manifestation of his magic rather than his apostle form.

CnC said:
I don't think it unlikely that Irvine (who's bow is special without question) would transform along with Irvine.

I also think it's possible, it's just hard to guess what the final result will be.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
why do you say likely?
What are you using to base this on?

You could check older threads before asking me that... And there are a lot of reasons. First, mist isn't anything like what you'd typically call an apostle form, and Ganishka uses it to cast lightning. It's very reminiscent of Flora when she appeared in her astral form. Second, he just changed in fog instantly when Irvine shot at him, he became immaterial and used the fog covering the town to make himself into a huge cloud and move around very fast, no apparent transformation, it's like his body was fog to begin with, a simple disguise. It's also just like what he did in Vritannis: he appeared out of fog instantly, without warning, only he wasn't even physically there. Third, let's talk about the fog itself. It's what his casters inhale to be able to use magic, same for the monsters, it's obviously a conductor of some sort that Ganishka uses to relay his magic to them (and control them), and it has diverse other magical properties. Fourth, Ganishka has apparent typical apostle features, namely his teeth (and fingers to a lesser extent), features that you can find on most of the monsters he creates. I'd expect his apostle form to be more in that fashion, not unlike all the Kushan effigies we can see represented here and there in the manga.

Now let me ask you, what was your basis for saying it was his apostle form, since you seemed to be so sure about it?
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
NERD FIIIIGHT!
well, ok. Not really. I was just wondering what in the manga you were using as a basis for the argument that this elemental form was likely NOTHING to do with him being an apostle.


Aazealh said:
You could check older threads before asking me that... And there are a lot of reasons. First, mist isn't anything like what you'd typically call an apostle form, and Ganishka uses it to cast lightning. It's very reminiscent of Flora when she appeared in her astral form. Second, he just changed in fog instantly when Irvine shot at him, he became immaterial and used the fog covering the town to make himself into a huge cloud and move around very fast, no apparent transformation, it's like his body was fog to begin with, a simple disguise. It's also just like what he did in Vritannis: he appeared out of fog instantly, without warning, only he wasn't even physically there. Third, let's talk about the fog itself. It's what his casters inhale to be able to use magic, same for the monsters, it's obviously a conductor of some sort that Ganishka uses to relay his magic to them (and control them), and it has diverse other magical properties. Fourth, Ganishka has apparent typical apostle features, namely his teeth (and fingers to a lesser extent), features that you can find on most of the monsters he creates. I'd expect his apostle form to be more in that fashion, not unlike all the Kushan effigies we can see represented here and there in the manga.

Now let me ask you, what was your basis for saying it was his apostle form, since you seemed to be so sure about it?

Well theres no doubt his powers are greater than the average apostle (some are given more than others, for reasons yet to be established). The powers given to apostles are far from predictable, as are their "features". If Locus can transform his horse and lance and become a metallic centaur (with the occasional lighting coming out of his eyes) and Grunbeld can become a dragon breathed in flame, I don't think an apostle whos form is that of fog is that far fetched.

So, to answer your question: No, I guess I'm not "sure". But neither are you. Or surely not enough to use "likely".
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
So, to answer your question: No, I guess I'm not "sure". But neither are you. Or surely not enough to use "most likely".

I'm not 100% sure it has absolutely nothing to do with his apostle form, but I feel confident enough it say it could likely not be it. Locus transforming into a metallic centaur and Grunberd into a dragon really doesn't mean much, and these transformations were actually rather predictable, most people thought Grunberd would be a dragon, and Locus being some sort of centaur had been speculated on several times. In the end, past the special effects, Locus and Grunberd are monsters with bodies than resemble what their human form is, not ethereal beings. That doesn't match Ganishka's fog form.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
Locus and Grunberd are monsters with bodies than resemble what their human form is, not ethereal beings. That doesn't match Ganishka's fog form.

It doesn't "match" because Ganishka's a shit load more powerful, Aaz. Grunbeld actually has the ability to generate fire, an element. He even uses it as a weapon. Its beyond "a special effect".
There's still not enough proof to warrant you saying this isn't his apostle form, without doubt.

Regardless... this is all OT. so, meh. :schierke:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
It doesn't "match" because Ganishka's a shit load more powerful, Aaz.

Their respective power purely as apostles is only your assumption; Ganishka from his own admission is very powerful because he's a magic user. And no, it's not just a matter of being more powerful than the others. Be honest and admit it. You talk about Ganishka's "elemental form". If it's elemental then it's not his apostle form? ;) And it's nothing like what Grunberd or Locus transform into as apostles.

CnC said:
Grunbeld actually has the ability to generate fire, an element. He even uses it as a weapon. Its beyond "a special effect".

Yeah, but he has a body, one that resembles his human form. That was the point. Grunberd breathes fire, that's it.

CnC said:
There's still not enough proof to warrant you saying this isn't his apostle form, without doubt.

There are enough proofs to say it could likely be the case (who said "without a doubt", except you?). You're just ignoring them and lowering actual facts to the level of your hyperbolized conjectures.

CnC said:
Regardless... this is all OT. so, meh. :schierke:

You brought it on, now you assume.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Ah, the sentence by sentence battle. What fun :schierke:
Don't you ever summarize?

Aazealh said:
Their respective power purely as apostles is only your assumption; Ganishka from his own admission is very powerful because he's a magic user. And no, it's not just a matter of being more powerful than the others. Be honest and admit it. You talk about Ganishka's "elemental form". If it's elemental then it's not his apostle form? ;)

Be honest? wtf? Like I have a personal stake in this.
Like I said earlier, "No, I guess I'm not "sure". But neither are you." There? happy? I'm honest and admitted that I don' thave enough proof to be sure. Bring on the bitches, its time to get laid. Oh wait? you mean that doesn't change anything?
Well, shit! In that case maybe we can discuss the idea that I'm not even talking about Ganishka's magical abilities, rather whether or not this could be his apostle form:

I don't think the idea that his apostle form would be elemental is that far of a stretch. As apostles have been given elemental powers before.
Example:

Aazealh said:
Grunberd breathes fire, that's it.

Thats proof of an ability that God Hand can instill into an apostle. Giving Ganishka even more of an elemental ability, say, to make his destruction of the known world and make Griffith's ascent all the more easy, would be within their power.

Aazealh said:
You brought it on, now you assume.

Well, I apologize for arguing off topic, as I'm sure you do too for any continuance of said argument.
If you prefer I can bring back the Viva Ganishka thread and we can continue this there?

Aazealh said:
(who said without a doubt, except you?)
Aazealh said:
it could likely not be it

this is nerdtacular
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
Don't you ever summarize?

Rarely, I prefer to go point by point, that prevents people to skip all of what I say by summing it up inappropriately, which is what you did with my first reply.

CnC said:
Be honest? wtf? Like I have a personal stake in this.

You just come back at me with "because he's a shitload more powerful", and that really didn't mean anything in regard to what I had said. Just don't give me fatuous answers please.

CnC said:
I'm honest and admitted that I don' thave enough proof to be sure.

You don't have any "proof" at all you mean. :casca:

CnC said:
I'm not even talking about Ganishka's magical abilities, rather whether or not this could be his apostle form: I don't think the idea that his apostle form would be elemental is that far of a stretch. As apostles have been given elemental powers before.

Well I think it's kind of a stretch. Not completely impossible of course, but a stretch. Hence the likely. Ganishka mocks the other apostles, telling them that because they received a small amount of evil into their bodies they get too confident. That hints at him having power besides being an apostle IMHO. All the other apostles are faithful to Griffith, they worship the God Hand that gave them their powers. But not Ganishka, no, Ganishka actually thinks he can oppose Griffith and the God hand. That isn't the state of mind I'd expect from someone that got all of his powers from them, rather it shows he has a stronger personality, more individuality and more resources than the others (though being an emperor already helps a lot). As for making him strong so that he could oppose Griffith and facilitates his ascension, I don't think it's within their field, it requires a higher level of control (i.e. the Idea of Evil). His interests are in direct conflict with theirs and the threat he poses to Griffith is still unknown in terms of proportions; I don't see them planning something so elaborated and risky (besides, how could they know he'd oppose Griffith just as needed, no more and no less?).

I just don't see why you insist here... You're not talking about his magical powers, but you can't deny he's an extremely powerful magic user from what we've seen, and that given all of what we know about his powers and the fog, it'd make sense for it to be magic as well. The fog is used everytime the familiars are, is Ganishka supposed to "transform" to produce this fog, sending parts of him all around the land? And apostle(s) (it's only Grunberd, right?) haven't been given "elemental powers". Grunberd can breathe fire, and fire is an element, great. But that doesn't mean he has any kind of "element power". He couldn't get passed Flora because of her own elemental power, she used fire and he was powerless, even shocked and outraged. He doesn't control fire, unlike what the Kelpie could do with water for example. And fog would be 2 elements, air and water, which are also different from lightning itself. And Ganishka made the roof where Irvine and his men stood literally explode. That's rather varied, don't you think? What about the rest of what I said before now? What about his apostle-like teeth, they're not part of his apostle form at all? Isn't that incongruous?

CnC said:
Well, I apologize for arguing off topic, as I'm sure you do too for any continuance of said argument. If you prefer I can bring back the Viva Ganishka thread and we can continue this there?

I don't think there's much to be said anymore, you tried to correct Rhombaad overconfidently and were wrong to do so, you disagree with what I said without any real basis to back up your claims, and you tried to nitpick on an expression ("could likely") while there was no need nor any reason to.

CnC said:
this is nerdtacular

Pathetic rather, where did I say "without a doubt" again? I can believe something myself without claiming that it's 100% sure, leaving the benefit of the doubt to an element like this one because of a lack of definite proof.
 

Feanor

Nur dem Schwert kannst du vertrauen!
THX for the old thread. The best i've found in it was that Irvine could be a powerfull cyclops, a scorpion or a griffin. But i think that all three possibilities are not perfectly convincing. I will say they are good and i don't know anything better at the moment but ...
Especially the cyclops is not bad but here the problem is, that locus is already "horsed" so i think that miura would think about something else for our mysterious Archer.
What decent creature is a hunter and a master of long range attacks?
It is still very difficult to find something for Irvine.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Feanor said:
THX for the old thread. The best i've found in it was that Irvine could be a powerfull cyclops, a scorpion or a griffin. But i think that all three possibilities are not perfectly convincing.

There's also the possibility of a Medusa-like monster, but it's indeed hard to realistically imagine Irvine transforming into any of these.

Feanor said:
Especially the cyclops is not bad but here the problem is, that locus is already "horsed" so i think that miura would think about something else for our mysterious Archer.

Well, cyclops aren't especially related to horses, they're supposed to be giants. I don't get your point here.

Feanor said:
It is still very difficult to find something for Irvine.

Yep, which is why not many people speculate about it. :serpico:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Fine... :schierke:

Aazealh said:
Rarely, I prefer to go point by point, that prevents people to skip all of what I say by summing it up inappropriately, which is what you did with my first reply.

prevents? how's this:

Aazealh said:
You just come back at me with "because he's a shitload more powerful", and that really didn't mean anything in regard to what I had said. Just don't give me fatuous answers please.

You don't have any "proof" at all you mean. :casca:

Well I think it's kind of a stretch. Not completely impossible of course, but a stretch. Hence the likely. Ganishka mocks the other apostles, telling them that because they received a small amount of evil into their bodies they get too confident. That hints at him having power besides being an apostle IMHO. All the other apostles are faithful to Griffith, they worship the God Hand that gave them their powers. But not Ganishka, no, Ganishka actually thinks he can oppose Griffith and the God hand. That isn't the state of mind I'd expect from someone that got all of his powers from them, rather it shows he has a stronger personality, more individuality and more resources than the others (though being an emperor already helps a lot). As for making him strong so that he could oppose Griffith and facilitates his ascension, I don't think it's within their field, it requires a higher level of control (i.e. the Idea of Evil). His interests are in direct conflict with theirs and the threat he poses to Griffith is still unknown in terms of proportions; I don't see them planning something so elaborated and risky (besides, how could they know he'd oppose Griffith just as needed, no more and no less?).

I just don't see why you insist here... You're not talking about his magical powers, but you can't deny he's an extremely powerful magic user from what we've seen, and that given all of what we know about his powers and the fog, it'd make sense for it to be magic as well. The fog is used everytime the familiars are, is Ganishka supposed to "transform" to produce this fog, sending parts of him all around the land? And apostle(s) (it's only Grunberd, right?) haven't been given "elemental powers". Grunberd can breathe fire, and fire is an element, great. But that doesn't mean he has any kind of "element power". He couldn't get passed Flora because of her own elemental power, she used fire and he was powerless, even shocked and outraged. He doesn't control fire, unlike what the Kelpie could do with water for example. And fog would be 2 elements, air and water, which are also different from lightning itself. And Ganishka made the roof where Irvine and his men stood literally explode. That's rather varied, don't you think? What about the rest of what I said before now? What about his apostle-like teeth, they're not part of his apostle form at all? Isn't that incongruous?

I don't think there's much to be said anymore, you tried to correct Rhombaad overconfidently and were wrong to do so, you disagree with what I said without any real basis to back up your claims, and you tried to nitpick on an expression ("could likely") while there was no need nor any reason to.

Pathetic rather, where did I say "without a doubt" again? I can believe something myself without claiming that it's 100% sure, leaving the benefit of the doubt to an element like this one because of a lack of definite proof.

You're right, this is pathetic.

In the end, I don't give a flying fuck. I was quoting Rhombaad, thinking that it was, in fact, his apostle form. Well apparently thats not it. He's a super magical sorcerer with +100 Lightning. really? oh. Ok. Thats cool, too. Either way, I'm still a fan of the character. Not for the specifics of his powers but for the character being interesting. He could shoot flowers, for all I care.

That being said, I really find it a waste of time to read a series of "point by point" which basically boil down to a series of "nuh-uh"'s. Or perhaps pointing towards previous threads where I can find _more_ point by point "nuh-uh"'s.
So rather than continue this wonderfully literal sounding "nuh-uh"/"yuh-huh" debate, I'll sum up. I think the form Ganishka takes in vol.27 is a result of him being an apostle. You disagree (or whatever the argument was, I'm not going to assume what it was for fear of continuing this blather). Thats nice. You bring the omelet, I'll bring the beer. We've got a party.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
prevents? how's this:

CnC ignores what he can't respond to so he doesn't have to admit his point is flawed.

You're right, this is pathetic.

Yep, not surprising coming from you though.

CnC said:
In the end, I don't give a flying fuck.

Yeah, that's to be expected since you've got nothing else to reply.

CnC said:
I was quoting Rhombaad, thinking that it was, in fact, his apostle form. Well apparently thats not it. He's a super magical sorcerer with +100 Lightning. really? oh. Ok. Thats cool, too.

Hahaha, turning it into derision! A super elemental apostle with +100 lightning would sure make a lot of difference, huh?

CnC said:
Either way, I'm still a fan of the character. Not for the specifics of his powers but for the character being interesting. He could shoot flowers, for all I care.

Nah, with the Hanafubuku Ô that'd be redundant. He's also one of my favorite characters, and that's why I care a minimum about the specifics of his powers (especially since it IMO strongly relates to his personality and explains his attitude).

CnC said:
That being said, I really find it a waste of time to read a series of "point by point" which basically boil down to a series of "nuh-uh"'s. Or perhaps pointing towards previous threads where I can find _more_ point by point "nuh-uh"'s.

Well instead of all this bullshit you're spewing to try to get out of the discussion while looking like you have the upper hand, you could just sum it all up into:

"I don't care, I can't prove what I say and don't want to try to, I'd just like it better if that was his apostle form."

That's a real, honest summary. It's not like I'm denying what you said without justifying my opinion, but since you don't have anything to oppose to my arguments and observations, trying to ridicule a posting habit and reducing all of what I say to a retarded variation of "no" is an easy way out. It's a glorious exit really, bravo. Now I'm off to eat a real omelette and I won't share it (and I have beer too), neener neener neener.

Feanor said:
oops sorry i've mistaked cyclops for centaur XD

I thought as much. :void: That still doesn't tell us what his apostle form could be though. Now that CnC and I are finished with our off-topic borefest, let's see if anyone has an original idea.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Aazealh said:
Yep, not surprising coming from you though.

I'm really not in the mood for cheap shots. IS this really where you want to go?


...

Feanor said:
The best i've found in it was that Irvine could be a powerfull cyclops, a scorpion or a griffin.

When Irvine first showed up I liked the idea that he could be blind, and an apostle form of that characteristic would be used. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
I'm really not in the mood for cheap shots. IS this really where you want to go?

Cheap shots are what you've been doing for the past hour. Don't be surprised that I followed your lead.
 

Tenro

...You tit.
I don't think we can limit the possibilities of Irvine's form to just mythological archetypes. We've seen designs that come from other directions before, and I think that this will be one of them.
As I'm sure has been stated before, the primary imagery in Irvine's Apostle form will be his eyes. Considering that the Apostle Eyes Syndrome, often referenced by Aaz, is one of the sure fire ways of denoting an Apostle, and we can't even see Irvine's eyes (if he's even got them), they'll probably be central in his second form.
Not a huge addition, but maybe it can distract CnC and Aaz from fighting for a post or two.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Tenro said:
I don't think we can limit the possibilities of Irvine's form to just mythological archetypes.

We should indeed not limit ourselves to mythology IMHO, Locus himself is after all far from the typical centaur...

Tenro said:
we can't even see Irvine's eyes (if he's even got them), they'll probably be central in his second form.

Well actually we can see his eyes, they're just blank, not completely unlike those Rochine's minions have. And there's the eye on his bow of course.

Tenro said:
Not a huge addition, but maybe it can distract CnC and Aaz from fighting for a post or two.

That's not nearly enough! Have at you CnC! Don't mind us, we're like an old couple. :casca:
 
I'm thinking the story Irvine told Sonia (about a hunter spending so much time stalking prey in the woods and eventally turned into a beast) may be a hint to his apostle form, or even how he got it. I'd like to think his apostle not being a cyclops, as they're often portrayed as giant one-eyed brutes and I think our favorite apostle archer isn't as bruques as that, least Miura gives his own take to a cyclops.

Maybe something completely out of left field to bring out Irvine's white pupil-less bug eyes like a 3-eyed wolf or a rapid-fire walking ballista. :troll:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Jhot obs said:
I'm thinking the story Irvine told Sonia (about a hunter spending so much time stalking prey in the woods and eventally turned into a beast) may be a hint to his apostle form, or even how he got it.

Yeah, that part of his speech is interesting and I couldn't help but instantly relate it to the way he became an apostle, it's just too tempting to deduce. I don't think it really hints at what he might transform into, but it sure implies a lot about how he came to this point and how he feels about it.

Jhot obs said:
Maybe something completely out of left field to bring out Irvine's white pupil-less bug eyes like a 3-eyed wolf or a rapid-fire walking ballista. :troll:

Well the ballista idea was actually mentioned several times in the past. :SK:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Tenro said:
Not a huge addition, but maybe it can distract CnC and Aaz from fighting for a post or two.

You call THAT a distraction? HAH!

Since Irvine shares such a kinship with his bow its more than likely (or in Aaz terms, 100% probable) that his apostle form will incorporate that bow, much as locus did with his horse/lance.
And I don't think eyes are the "sure fire" way of denoting an apostle. They can all sorts of physical characteristics like say, being pure fog and lighting when in apostle form.

oh ok, I'm just playing around now. But I meant the part about the kinship with his bow.
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Aazealh said:
Actually, it looks like he fused with his armor.
Yup, I took a second look at episode 227 and I agree. Grunbeld is very proud of his corundum armor, too, so I guess his armor plays a bigger part than I realized. Always glad to learn new things about Berserk even after I've read it so many times. :guts:
 
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