Author Topic: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz  (Read 15904 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2006, 09:34:49 PM »
We need more people like you, people with balls.

No, we need people with brains, and there's a definite lack of these.

Offline Walter

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 02:15:33 AM »
We need more people like you, people with balls.
You can't prove he has balls. That's just your opinion.

You see what I did there? I used my balls to think instead of my brain.

Offline Kagami

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2006, 03:02:24 AM »
You see what I did there? I used my balls to think instead of my brain.

Quote: Originally Posted by Picnic Boy
awesome, now I can sing pork soda in my rap battle later tonight.

mercs

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 03:59:03 AM »
mercs, I like you, hang around.  We need more people like you, people with balls.

I love you.

Kagami - Hahah, thats the best fucking post I've seen on this forum yet.

Offline Tristram

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 06:00:55 AM »
thats the worst fucking post I've seen on this forum yet.

corrected for faggotry

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2006, 07:56:28 AM »
I don't get this shit, the guy thinks Miura is a liar, big deal. Honestly, you guys seem to be taking it like the guy fucked your moms or something. His way of trying to weasel out of things with self-depreciating comments is pretty annoying, but frankly it's not unreasonable that he can't accept Miura's explanation.

I myself have always felt it was a bit fishy. After all, people lie all the time to make themselves seem more original. It doesn't make people violent sociopatic ogres or anything, just sometimes a person's pride gets the better of them. If a major hollywood director were to make a similar claim about something in a movie, for instance, that looked vaguely similar to Berserk, I'm sure you guys would be a little suspicious. On the other hand, I do acknowledge that no one could ever prove Miura were lying, nor do I feel that it beyond the realm of coincidence, in fact, I've seen bigger:

A while back I had an idea for a comic-book set in a post apocalyptic world. I really got into it, and had designed a number of characters including this futuristic-looking samurai-hermit dude. The day I finished I heard that square had released some new screenshots of their latest final fantasy game (FFX). Sure enough, they had this old samurai guy who looked remarkably similar to the one I had just done. It really pissed me off, too, since I thought I was really clever for putting little straps on his long trailing sleeves so that he had a convenient way to keep them from flapping around in battle without having a separate cord to tie them up. When I saw him I was practically heartbroken, and just gave up on the whole comic, even though he was just a side character. Months later I tried re-designing him into a younger looking character with a less obvious samurai-influence, but my enthusiasm had died.

It's just as well, since it wasn't a very good comic, but the point is, if I had finished the comic, and published it, it would have looked like I completely ripped off final fantasy with that particular character. I designed my character before ever seeing square's, but who would have believed me? Not many people, and if you could have seen the guy I designed, you'd realise that they'd be right not to.

It happens, whoop-de-doo. There have been far dumber things said on this board, and I don't think I've seen the mods respond nearly as vehemently about them.

Offline Walter

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2006, 04:23:41 PM »
But, according to your example, you wouldn't have been lying if you'd published the comic, and claimed ignorance of Auron before his creation.  And, being the creator of the series, I would have believed YOU.

Why did we respond so angrily? Well, I can't speak for Aaz, but for me, it was just pretty infuriating that someone would, as you say, weasel out of an argument by calling Miura a liar.  Why should I show self-restraint to someone with no respect for the series' creator?

You should have seen this guy (mercs) follow-up shit. You wouldn't be defending him, trust me  :carcus:

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2006, 09:24:57 PM »
That's correct, I wouldn't have been lying in that example, but I gotta question your faith. Had I been an outside observer in that senario, I wouldn't have believed that the other me was telling the truth.

I don't believe that someone is infallable just because they created something, and then give their word.

If I saw a one eyed spiky haired vampire hunter, dressed in black with a giant stake on his back and a garlic launcher on his arm or some shit on lets say Buffy (I've never watched buffy more than twice, so far all I know, there has been such a ridiculous thing on it), I wouldn't believe Whedon if he feigned ignorance towards Berserk.

Anyway, I'm just gonna admit that I don't understand your line of thinking and leave it at that.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2006, 12:04:56 AM »
I think what's frustrating Walter is that there's just as much of a chance, if not more, that Miura is telling the truth rather than lying.  I agree, he's not infallible just because he's the creator but that doesn't mean you just jump to him being a liar.  Plus, we all respect Kentarou Miura and simply trust his word.  There's really no reason to distrust him anyway.  I'm going in circles... :SK:

Offline Villain

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2006, 07:55:09 PM »
There are three possible alternatives:

1. Miura created the character of Guts without any knowledge about Götz and the similarity is just a coincidence.
2. Miura had read about Götz before and subconsciously made Guts resemble him, but can not remember it.
3. Miura had used Götz as a basis for Guts and lied when asked about it.

All three are mutually exclusive, but each of them is possible. I will hereby address them one by one.

1. Miura may have created Guts without knowing anything about Götz, but aware of the similarity between the two, I must say this would be a highly unlikely coincidence. Possible, for sure, but still highly unlikely.

2. It is very well possible Miura can no longer remember all the things that influenced him back when he was first creating Berserk and the character of Guts. Things like this happen all the time to creative people, who draw influences from multiple sources all the time.

3. Miura may have very well lied to us on the interview. Everyone lies occasionally - yes, even Miura. Is the value or magnificence of Berserk reduced if its creator lies? Absolutely not. Is it disrespectful towards Miura to say that he might have lied? Not in my eyes, as everyone lies and everyone should be allowed to lie sometimes. For Miura to lie once does not make him a liar - otherwise every human being would be a liar as well.

The question is: why would he lie? There are plenty of possible reasons. He might be concerned of what people think of him as an artist if they find out he has based characters on real history instead of creating them completely by himself. Or he might be worried that people would not consider Berserk original enough if they found out the main character was "borrowed" from real history. As the end of the interview implies, Miura was nervously concerned of what the audience might think of the originality of Berserk. Or perhaps he just wanted to play a trick on the audience.

Not knowing his person on psychological level, we can't say if any of these possible reasons are true, but each of them could very well be possible.

To conclude, any one of the three alternatives mentioned above may be correct, as I have just proven. We can not know, which one actually is the truth, but we can certainly discuss and compare our views about this issue. (Personally, I believe both 2 and 3 are much more likely than 1)

To claim that this issue is not debatable is sheer blind fanboyism and while I'm often guilty of fanboyism myself, I must say that attacking someone for simply daring to hint that Miura might lie is just outright stupid in my honest opinion.

I think both Walter and Aazealh owe this mercs a huge apology for their intolerant behaviour. If you want intelligent people to this site, you should show them some respect. And realize that blind fanboyism and intelligence often work against each other.

With all due respect,
-Villain
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 08:01:11 PM by Villain »

Offline Simon

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2006, 08:39:44 PM »
I think you guys are looking too far into it. Whether he lied or not, it doesn't really matter.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2006, 08:50:48 PM »
1. Miura may have created Guts without knowing anything about Götz, but aware of the similarity between the two, I must say this would be a highly unlikely coincidence. Possible, for sure, but still highly unlikely.

You're neglecting a large amount of factors in that reductive and over the shoulder analysis. I'd really like to address this in detail and point out why people like you should try to think a bit before posting but I don't feel like wasting my time on it right now. Maybe tomorrow.

The question is: why would he lie? There are plenty of possible reasons. He might be concerned of what people think of him as an artist if they find out he has based characters on real history instead of creating them completely by himself. Or he might be worried that people would not consider Berserk original enough if they found out the main character was "borrowed" from real history. As the end of the interview implies, Miura was nervously concerned of what the audience might think of the originality of Berserk.

Yeah, like I said, you're really ignoring a lot of factors here, a good reason not to post usually.

Not knowing his person on psychological level

Don't make me laugh. After those silly random guesses that showcase your cluelessness you talk of deep psychological knowledge? As if that was even a sure way to know. I can already see the picture from here, the "I've read some articles on the subject" pseudo-intellectual babble. What are you suggesting, that he go through a magical lie detector? Anyway, I actually believe I know enough about the man to get an outline of his personality.

To conclude, any one of the three alternatives mentioned above may be correct, as I have just proven.

You really haven't proven anything that wasn't extremely obvious you know. What's with people thinking that stating stuff in a neat order with a semblance of logic equals to a "proof" these days?

To claim that this issue is not debatable is sheer blind fanboyism

Nah, it's a matter of semantics. You just didn't understand what I meant.

I must say that attacking someone for simply daring to hint that Miura might lie is just outright stupid in my honest opinion. I think both Walter and Aazealh owe this mercs a huge apology for their intolerant behaviour. If you want intelligent people to this site, you should show them some respect.

I didn't attack anybody and I'd like to see you point out what's supposed to be an attack to whatshisname by me in this thread. Also I'm certainly not going to apoligize to anybody, and I think you're pretty STUPID yourself (yes, I edited the post so stupid would stand out, finally something concrete to whine about). You know what I'd like? I'd like people to read my fucking posts and try to understand them before replying bullshit. That'd be respect. Moron.

I think you guys are looking too far into it. Whether he lied or not, it doesn't really matter.

That's exact, however if some guys are going to insist on the matter, I don't see why I shouldn't. :void:

Offline Villain

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2006, 09:12:35 PM »
Whether or not I'm neglecting any factors is beside the point. The point is that the issue raised by mercs is debatable. Adding any factors will only make the issue more debatable. You may be of any opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that we can have a good debate about this issue.

If what I said above was already obvious to you, why did you claim that mercs was calling Miura a liar when he only stated that the issue was debatable? See point 2 of my previous post - the issue can be debatable even without implying that Miura is consciously lying.

I actually believe I know enough about the man to get an outline of his personality.

You obviously don't know anything about Miura on psychological level, so please don't pretend you do. Claiming you know his person on psychological level merely by his art and a few interviews is in my opinion most disrespectful towards Miura.

If you don't feel like apologising, well, so be it. Intolerance and agressiveness seem to be virtues around here. I do not mind personal insults, but I feel the level of discussion could be much better without them. Your previous post had no content, as you didn't even try to back any of your words up; you should concentrate on your arguments instead of childish name-calling.

That way you could perhaps earn my respect.

-Villain
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 09:33:58 PM by Villain »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2006, 09:40:52 PM »
Whether or not I'm neglecting any factors is beside the point.

I'm afraid it's not, you're just talking about things you don't know enough about and drawing obvious, irrelevant and generic conclusions from this absence of knowledge. How is that beside the point?

The point is that the issue raised by mercs is debatable

It's not debatable in the sense that it doesn't have the qualities of a debate, like I told mercs. There lacks information as well as valid reasons, motives and arguments to make this issue debatable as in "liable to be debated, worthy of a debate". Your post contains nothing changing this fact, and it isn't of much importance all in all. Yeah, it's not completely and scientifically proven certain that Miura didn't lie about this, and nobody said otherwise. Was this your point? If so, I hope you realize how worthless it is. And that issue wasn't raised by mercs by the way, although he copied parts of his post from another source that stated the information in a way that didn't seem appropriate to me, which is what you're replying about I guess.

If what I said above was already obvious to you, why did you claim that mercs was calling Miura a liar when he only stated that the issue was debatable?

I didn't "claim" he called Miura a liar, I'm starting to get bored with false accusations here buddy. Got anything worth saying or not?

You obviously don't know anything about Miura on psychological level, so please don't pretend you do.

Well I've read most of what he publically declared in the past 15 years as well as what a lot of people knowing him personally said about him. I think that gives me a pretty decent appreciation of his persona and general mindset.

Intolerance and agressiveness seem to be virtues around here.

Again my dear friend, please show me unwarranted examples of intolerance and aggressiveness, I'm curious. I mean, who's talking about "outright stupid" things here? You're such a parody, it's almost funny. Now since I've lost all of my patience for this month already, be nice and don't reply without answering my request.

I do not mind personal insults, but I feel the level of discussion could be much better without them.

I don't see how it'd change anything to the "level" of discussion by now, especially not since insults are insults whether they're disguised as a general statement (i.e. your post) or directly aimed at people. If anything, don't be a hypocrite.

Your previous post had no content, as you didn't even try to back any of your words up; you should concentrate on your arguments instead of childish name-calling.

That way you could perhaps earn my respect.

Ah, you edited, great addition. :serpico: Well your posts had no content either, and I mean all of them. I also don't need any advice on what I should do, thank you very much. Maybe you should try to back your own words up before telling me to do so, uh? Oh, and if there's a thing I don't care about, it's your respect. Be sure that you won't earn mine with petty posts like this.

Offline Villain

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2006, 10:14:47 PM »
The issue that mercs raised was that it is debatable whether or not Guts is based on Götz. There are plenty of valid arguments (unless you can prove my arguments invalid - which you haven't done) on all three existing sides. If you insist on claiming that this issue isn't debatable, I must ask you to present some earth-shattering facts that make all my arguments invalid. Otherwise, we will only be debating this issue.

I didn't claim he called Miura a liar, I'm starting to get bored with false accusations here buddy. Got anything worth saying or not?

This is what you said in one of your previous posts:
"Therefore if you say this is debatable you are obligatorily assuming he is a liar"

Got anything worth saying or not? :guts:

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Well I've read most of what he publically declared in the past 15 years as well as what a lot of people knowing him personally said about him. I think that gives me a pretty decent appreciation of his persona and general mindset.

And you think that's enough to know his person on psychological level? :isidro: I don't think I have anything to say to that. Except that I've probably read all the same sources as you have, and having studied plenty of psychology I still can't say I know Miura on psychological level despite all the knowledge I have of his general mindset.

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Again my dear friend, please show me unwarranted examples of intolerance and aggressiveness, I'm curious. I mean, who's talking about "outright stupid" things here?

You clearly implied he had no brains in your first post on the second page. If you meant something else, please educate me. Apart from that, I must admit I was more referring to this comment by Walter (I named him first when I said you needed to apologize, and perhaps wrongly grouped you two together):

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Well, I can't speak for Aaz, but for me, it was just pretty infuriating that someone would, as you say, weasel out of an argument by calling Miura a liar.

You should have seen this guy (mercs) follow-up shit.

(Mercs didn't weasel out of any argument by calling Miura a liar, as he never called Miura a liar in the first place.)

The comment of me being a hypocrite duly taken and accepted. I'll try to avoid vague insults from now on.

Now, please show me how you can disprove the points I made in my first post without debating with me.

As for whether or not the subject itself is worthy of a debate, I'd say this issue is far more worthy than, say, the debate about evolution vs. god - where lack of information is the major cause for debate.

-Villain
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 10:28:24 PM by Villain »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2006, 11:04:04 PM »
The issue that mercs raised was that it is debatable whether or not Guts is based on Götz.

Mercs merely revived an old topic, we didn't wait 2006 to ponder about this.

There are plenty of valid arguments

What arguments? Miura could have lied for some unknown reason you're assuming exists, or forgotten that he knew about Götz beforehand. That's your arguments? I wouldn't call that plenty, nor arguments justifying a debate, but that's up to you I guess. If you want to insist that the existence of 2 (or 3) possibilities (one which is completely speculative) suffices to make a "debate" (more like opinion tossing...) in the broad meaning of the term possible, then I can agree, but I hope you're aware it was never the question. Hence what I said about semantics earlier. And your assumptions about Miura's possible reasons for lying are where skipping known elements hurts (what about all the sources of inspiration he cited for his work, including Guts, for example? What about his extreme humility and repeated understatements concerning Berserk's quality and his own merit over the years? Etc). Now as I've said in my first reply to you, I'll post about this later: 1) because I don't feel like detailing and nuancing a big message right now, I shouldn't even be online. 2) Because I prefer to check my sources and post exact information, something that I'm apparently the only person concerned with on the Internet.

"Therefore if you say this is debatable you are obligatorily assuming he is a liar"

That was a simple deduction following mercs' own reasoning, pointing to him some contradictions. It wasn't a "claim" against what he repeatedly said himself, which you will notice I reminded him of later on. Mercs himself didn't take it personally but as a general statement, and I don't think there's a problem with that line actually. So?

And you think that's enough to know his person on psychological level?

What, so you mean as a psycho-therapist? How ridiculous must this get? :schierke: Let's directly move to the futuristic brain extraction picture I posted then, that'll save us some time.

Except that I've probably read all the same sources as you have

Sorry but I highly doubt that. Have you ever read an issue of Young Animal? Have you read Guin Saga guide books? Have you read issues of Berserk Freaks or the Hyper Maniac Mooks? The list is long, don't presume too much.

You clearly implied he had no brains in your first post on the second page. If you meant something else, please educate me.

I was just replying to pippin22 and saying we needed people with brains as opposed to what he stated, that wasn't implying something about mercs in particular, although it could be interpreted like that I guess. I'm not even sure that'd be much of an insult in the context anyway...

Apart from that, I must admit I was more referring to this comment by Walter

Yeah, well I get enough of these baseless accusations to be honest so please be careful in the future, I'd sincerely appreciate it.

(Mercs didn't weasel out of any argument by calling Miura a liar, as he never called Miura a liar in the first place.)

What's up with mercs? He's a personal friend of yours or something? I'm afraid you don't know all of the story here so you might not want to assume too much stuff. And mercs did weasel out of the discussion by deviating it on irrelevant topics (such as science...) among other things.

The comment of me being a hypocrite duly taken and accepted. I'll try to avoid vague insults from now on.

Thanks. Sorry for the line by line quote too, I know it's not the most enjoyable thing to read.

As for whether or not the subject itself is worthy of a debate, I'd say this issue is far more worthy than, say, the debate about evolution vs. god - where lack of information is the major cause for debate.

Are you joking? The lack of information and the willingness of some people to doubt Kentarou Miura's word is not only the major cause of "debate" here (if it must be a debate :schierke:), but the only cause of debate. It has no merit.

Offline Sparnage

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2006, 04:06:07 AM »
It's not like I trust Miura not to lie. I'm not saying he is the person who would, but I really don't know what sort of person he is outside an isolated author of a dark manga.
Others may think they know what he would be thinking for other reasons whether it'd be they have looked into his history, know psychology or just flat out naively seeing him as angelic because of his work.

I wouldn't be shocked if he was based on this guy or not, however why would he lie about it? He has admitted to other historical inspirations, why wouldn't this be one of them? It's not something he could be sued for anymore than his other ideas he has admittedly been inspired by.

I can, like wereallmad also see how such an incident could happen;
About 5 or more years ago I Created a comic about this Ninja who was after revenge after being betrayed by and old friend he trained with when he was young.
He was made to be able to take plenty of pain and continue, covered in scars of all kinds. Pushed himself incredibly hard during training and battles. I made him to be a quiet sort of person with a dark demeanor through all of the physical and mental pain he had took over the years.
 
He didn't have one eye but a big scar near his right eye which by chance also happened during the the night his old friend betrayed him, resulting in his whole clan being slaughtered except for the protagonist who managed to survive, before his story of revenge reached the beginning after a synopsis of his life up until that point.

He probably had inspiration from Jubei in Ninja scroll, aside Akira was the only Anime I ever saw. Back in those days the only comic I read were DC ones. I was so surprised by the simliarities it had with Berserk (aside being lame) after I discovered it several years later when I'd almost forgotten about making it.

In other words yeah, I could see how such a coincidence can occur.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 11:07:52 AM by Sparnage »

Offline Griffith

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2006, 12:07:54 PM »
I wouldn't be shocked if he was based on this guy or not, however why would he lie about it? He has admitted to other historical inspirations, why wouldn't this be one of them? It's not something he could be sued for anymore than his other ideas he has admittedly been inspired by.

Exactly why this hubbub was silly to begin with. This thread has turned into an exercise in the abuse of logic to create meaningless heresay; and, while Wally and Aaz overreacted, now it seems to have just deteriorated into an excuse to antagonize them and vice versa. I mean, what's the final conclusion and proof of this "debate", that anything's possible?

Fine, agreed, I'm glad we've finally got that clearly important and shocking revelation concerning the truth about Götz and Miura out of the way. Now what's say we all put our keyboards to more constructive use?

Offline Villain

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2006, 04:59:24 PM »
Mercs merely revived an old topic, we didn't wait 2006 to ponder about this.

Very well. He re-raised this issue. Yet, it doesn't negate the existence of the issue at hand. Happy now?

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What arguments? Miura could have lied for some unknown reason you're assuming exists, or forgotten that he knew about Götz beforehand. That's your arguments? I wouldn't call that plenty, nor arguments justifying a debate, but that's up to you I guess. If you want to insist that the existence of 2 (or 3) possibilities (one which is completely speculative) suffices to make a "debate" (more like opinion tossing...) in the broad meaning of the term possible, then I can agree, but I hope you're aware it was never the question.

I'd say you wasted quite a lot of time and bandwith arguing about it, if it was never the question.

I also argue that it is highly unlikely that Miura would have created Guts without knowledge of Götz. More about this below.

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Hence what I said about semantics earlier. And your assumptions about Miura's possible reasons for lying are where skipping known elements hurts (what about all the sources of inspiration he cited for his work, including Guts, for example? What about his extreme humility and repeated understatements concerning Berserk's quality and his own merit over the years? Etc).

Good arguments. Now this is a debate. Here are my counters:

1. All throughout the interview we are referring to, Miura has difficulties clearly stating exactly what were the sources of inspiration for Guts specifically (Rutger Hauer and himself are the only things he can come up with). This is perfectly understandable considering the interview is done so long after he originally created Guts. But it also could mean he doesn't want to tell something about him.

2. Miura's apparent humility is very typical for any Japanese artist, and one could argue it is nothing but the learned way of behaviour for him.

Also, neither of your arguments rule out the possibility that he is just outright lying. Humility and openness are commendable traits, but they don't prevent one from lying.

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Now as I've said in my first reply to you, I'll post about this later: 1) because I don't feel like detailing and nuancing a 500 lines message right now, I shouldn't even be online. 2) Because I want to check my sources and post exact information, something that I'm apparently the only person concerned with on the Internet.

Feel free to take your time. I'll be eagerly awaiting for your further arguments.

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That was a simple deduction following mercs' own reasoning, pointing to him some contradictions. It wasn't a "claim" against what he repeatedly said himself, which you will notice I reminded him of later on. Mercs himself didn't take it personally but as a general statement, and I don't think there's a problem with that line actually.

Problem, no, but it doesn't change the fact that you (purposefully?) ignored the possibility that Miura had simply forgotten about Götz by the time the interview was made.

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What, so you mean as a psycho-therapist? How ridiculous must this get? :schierke: Let's directly move to the futuristic brain extraction picture I posted then, that'll save us some time.

Which is exactly what I was saying: We can not know whether or not Miura would lie without knowing him on a psychological level (read: without psychoanalysis or years of knowing him personally). This is a statement of fact and not something I wanted to argue about. Please note that it is you who sticks to this question, not me. If you want to save time, don't try to argue about such ridiculously obvious issues and please concentrate on the actual debate.

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Sorry but I highly doubt that. Have you ever read an issue of Young Animal? Have you read Guin Saga guide books? Have you read issues of Berserk Freaks or the Hyper Maniac Mooks? The list is long, don't presume too much.

Some of them, yes. However, I don't find any of them a least bit relevant in this context (see above). Making any sort of psychological analyses based on some second- or third-hand sources is nigh impossible.

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I was just replying to pippin22 and saying we needed people with brains as opposed to what he stated, that wasn't implying something about mercs in particular, although it could be interpreted like that I guess. I'm not even sure that'd be much of an insult in the context anyway...

In the context I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. Anyways, I take your word on it and understand this could just be a misunderstanding on my part. Therefore, I will withdraw my words where I said you need to apologize for mercs. Note that this doesn't apply to Walter.

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Yeah, well I get enough of these baseless accusations to be honest so please be careful in the future, I'd sincerely appreciate it.

I'll try my best, and I hope you'll be careful as well.

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What's up with mercs? He's a personal friend of yours or something? I'm afraid you don't know all of the story here so you might not want to assume too much stuff. And mercs did weasel out of the discussion by deviating it on irrelevant topics (such as science...) among other things.

I do not know mercs in any way. I just happened to read this thread and thought he was being intelligent and respectful (both towards Miura and everyone here) - and yet a moderator attacked him and another implied he had no brains. Which is why I thought an apology was necessary. And in the case of Walter, I still believe it is, even if I take your word that you didn't mean to insult him.

As for deviating and weaseling out, I'd call you just as guilty as him (his original argument was more a general statement than an actual attempt at debate). And he certainly didn't weasel out by calling Miura a liar.

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Thanks. Sorry for the line by line quote too, I know it's not the most enjoyable thing to read.

I'm fine with that as long as you are fine with me doing the same.

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Are you joking? The lack of information and the willingness of some people to doubt Kentarou Miura's word is not only the major cause of "debate" here (if it must be a debate :schierke:), but the only cause of debate.

The similarity of Guts and Götz is the major cause of debate here (without it this whole topic would not exist). The lack of information is another (if we had more information about the subject, there'd be less to debate). The willingness to doubt Miura's word only widens the debate (it only makes my alternative #3 possible, even without it there could be a debate between #1 and #2).

Finally, here's an argument I'd like you to answer:

We all know Miura has done considerable amounts of research on medieval European weapons, armor, castles, etc. To assume that he has done no research on medieval prostheses would be quite unrealistic, don't you agree? After all, the technical details of Guts' arm clearly represent actual working prostheses of the time (instead of, say, some completely fantastical prosthesis he might have very well come up with).

Now, what chance is there for one to research medieval arm prostheses without finding out Götz von Berchlichingen? Pretty much zero, I tell you. It is probably mentioned in every single book about the subject. There's practically no way Miura missed Götz if he did any research on the subject.

Thus, it is highly unlikely that the arm of Götz had no influence on the arm of Guts. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean Miura is lying. Perhaps he had read about Götz years before he drew the Berserk prototype, and only used a picture of the arm and subconsciously connected it with Götz when naming his new character - without ever realizing what he did.

Far-fetched? Perhaps. But it is a possibility, and I would say a much likelier possibility than the suggested coincidence (alternative 1).

-Villain
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 05:06:40 PM by Villain »

Offline CnC

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2006, 05:11:51 PM »
Rather than blather on in a quote by quote battle, I'll just sum up my argument with "who cares?"

mmm... closure.
I'm sick of following my dreams.  I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later...
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Offline Sparnage

Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2006, 05:38:29 PM »

Fine, agreed, I'm glad we've finally got that clearly important and shocking revelation concerning the truth about Götz and Miura out of the way. Now what's say we all put our keyboards to more constructive use?

Well, at the very least we can say we tried.

Very well. He re-raised this issue. Yet, it doesn't negate the existence of the issue at hand. Happy now?

Offline Walter

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2006, 04:08:04 AM »
Good christ, this thread sure is a blast.

Villain, your "debate skills" are really misplaced in this thread...   I'd rather have a discussion, personally.  But, certainly over something less transcendent and ultimately pointless as "did Miura lie?!" 

Offline Griffith

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Re: What Miura said about Guts/Goetz
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2006, 08:09:29 AM »
Far-fetched? Perhaps. But it is a possibility, and I would say a much likelier possibility than the suggested coincidence (alternative 1).

Your stance that it’s a simple and undeniable possibility was a self-evident truth and a virtually invincible position (which doesn't make for good debate, BTW =), but you undercut that with your opinon that it’s more likely than a coincidence. Including your assumptions to the range and degree of Miura’s research and resources, that's totally subjective conjecture and heresay; nothing more than a personal belief based as much on faith than if you took Miura’s word for it.
           
More so, actually; objectively speaking, you’re disregarding information from an obviously knowledgable source that is, thus far, unchallenged by contrary fact. An action that requires you to postulate motives and circumstances that you can't possibly corroborate. The burden of proof isn't on Miura, it's on those that challenge his assertion.

Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time being cynical, narcissistic, and rude; welcome to the board! :troll: