Just how screwed up is Guts?

W

willowhugger

I tend to point to Guts as an anti-hero rather than a hero. I don't like it when the author portrays Guts as a nice guy underneath all of his bluster and trauma. I find it refreshing when....well....when Guts is a bastard to be perfectly honest.

(no other word really expresses it)

My favorite scenes for Guts are the opening scene (where he kills the Apostle after luring it in with sex), his taunting of the Count's daughter and encouraging her to commit suicide, plus his dispassionate denunciation of humanity in the video game at the end.

Guts was never a particularly "good" man to begin with (assisting Griffith in his assassinations amongst other things) but while I don't think of him as an evil man, I certainly don't like it when the author tries to soften his character. I never particularly bought his relationship with the Black Smith for instance.

How about you? What do you think?
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I think you should probably start reading the series objectively instead of turning away when "the author portrays Guts as a nice guy underneath all of his bluster and trauma." Unless of course, you'd prefer a fanfic to the actual series. :carcus: Judging from your description of key events in the series, it's obvious you've been reading it in something of a delusional state.

There are several instances where Guts bears his big, goofy heart. And for all your "evidence" that he has no humanity, there are scenes that show how he actually processes those emotions. To quote Schierke, "A human soul wouldn't get this badly damaged if you didn't care."

If it's 2 dimensional characters you're looking for, I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere.
 
Aazealh

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
willowhugger said:
Guts was never a particularly "good" man to begin with
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On the contrary, Guts has always been fundamentally good... He's a hero, that just doesn't mean he has to be a stereotype. Like Walter said, you might want to re-read the series objectively. The apostle he kills in the opening scene tried to kill him first, and after he taunts Theresia, he goes out crying... Same when he accidentally killed Adonis (while following orders), he was deeply shocked. Really, if you look at his life in detail, you'll see that he never killed or physically harmed someone gratuitously (besides he pretty much fights against "evil" now). Compare that to Wyald if you want, he was a real bastard.
 
J

jepn30

willowhugger said:
Guts was never a particularly "good" man to begin with (assisting Griffith in his assassinations amongst other things) but while I don't think of him as an evil man, I certainly don't like it when the author tries to soften his character.  I never particularly bought his relationship with the Black Smith for instance.

How about you? What do you think?
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The assassination was in response to an attempt on Griffith's life (let's not forget how important Griffith was to Guts). Further, it is my opinion that your listing of the assassination is more detrimental to your argument than it is helpful. Consider the death of Adonis; Guts is absolutely horrified when he sees what he has done. Guts is one who has often tried to deny that he has empathy for anyone, but I think that it is painfully obvious that this is not the case. Though he remains very jaded.

Moreover, (if I am interpreting your statements correctly) you seem to imply that Miura's softening of Guts is out of character. Again that Guts has a "soft," empathetic, or caring side has been pretty much a given, if you have read the manga.
 
I

IsolatioN

Last Soldier Standing
The past 3 posts have pretty much summed it up completly. Guts, as well as all of Miura's characters, are deep and complex. There are no real "cookie cutter" personalities in Berserk for good and evil. Hell, the line between good and evil is pretty much invisible in Berserk, which I find very unique and interesting. Guts isn't "tough guy going soft" either. He has emotions just like everyone, and even though he tries to conceal them (note when he was crying after telling Theresia he's ready to fight when she is, he quickly brushed away his tears/covered his face with his cloak when Puck looked at him).

Like Walter said if your looking for 2 dimensional characters then perhaps Berserk isn't the manga for you :)
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
IsolatioN said:
Hell, the line between good and evil is pretty much invisible in Berserk, which I find very unique and interesting.
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The God Hand and Idea profess to being evil though.
 
W

willowhugger

Miura is the one who owns Guts and "knows" him best, so I'm certainly not arguing he's doing Guts incorrectly. I am just stating a prefer a much more hardcore portrayal of Guts honestly.

I don't think of him as naturally evil but I do believe the books before the flashbacks show Guts as pretty nuts. No one would blame him for being crazy in just a different way than Casca honestly.
 
A

Ariyn

Why don't you just make it easier on yourself and simply phrase your feelings like "Guts is totally awesome when he goes batshit insane and kills everything. Otherwise, he's just a wuss." That way you can argue about whether he's insane and a wuss instead this. :chomp: :chomp:
 
W

willowhugger

I hardly think this is productive on your parts.

No, I'm not really fond of Gut's 'softer' moments honestly. The violence and tragedy of his life I find to be the most telling parts of his story though. Guts has had a raw deal from life.

* His best friend turns on him
* Girlfriend crazy
* Friends all massacred by best friend
* Loses his arm
* Raped as a child after father fascilitates it
* Murders his own father
* Orphaned early twice

I like Guts fine, I like it best when he's flicking away people whom are terminal Pollyannas when they have not the slightest idea what Guts has been through.
 
B

Begemot

STOP UNDRESSING ME WITH YOUR EYES!
Look, the fundamental truth to Guts is that he is indeed a nice guy. But he's been hurt in so many relationships that he hides it from everyone until he learns wether or not he can trust them. Once he actually has friends and loved ones, he is the most fiercely protective of the as anyone can get.
 
S

SSJbattousai06

Guts is a generally nice guy, caught up in a fucked up world.

You see he truely loves Casca, he says his sword will only be for himself, but if it was would he have killed all those demons when Casca was getting raped by Femto? Would he have cut of his own arm to get at Casca? If he didn't care, he would have just stared, not doing anything.

To say Guts is heartless, is stupid.
 
H

HawaiianStallion

Guts is a nice guy, its just past events have left him more than simply physically scarred ala the Beast. Its almost a split personality though I guess you could argue its just Guts' darker emotions and feelings and all the history as the blackswordman trying to get control than a whole other personality.
 
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Ng51386

Guest
Guts is just a guy that's scorned. He is truly good at heart, but it's hard to show your good side when you have so much... Spiritual evil surrounded around you. Your emotions are forced to become hardened, and thus you're not allowed to show the goodness within, and actually forced to become cynical, and a bastard.

As of late though, he's become softened due to his new allies, and the battles that they go through together. Guts is starting to once again find the humanity that was robbed from him by what he thought was a friend.
 
W

Wraith King

I exist in the shadow of my unrealized dream
Guts is as good a person as can reasonably be expected considering his life thus far.. thinking in terms of good and evil is rather limiting, but it could be said that guts has an evil side to him, and the potential to be very evil but he more or less resists it...
 
T

typhonblue

Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
*sigh*

Guts has emotions. Whoda thunk it? He's a fairly sensitive, vulnerable human being. Whoda thunk it? And, that very vulnerability not only fuels his fury but makes us forgive it. Whoda thunk it?

Guts isn't a caricature of a tough guy, he's not a macho mask you can slip into for a half hour every two weeks and forget about the trecherous humanity(or its post-bastardization synonym, femininity)boiling under your butch facade.

Perhaps you should look elsewhere for a pair of fantasy brass balls to pin to your lapel.
 
T

Tenro

...You tit.
:isidro: Okay, that was a bit scary.

Seriously though, there was a point there. You can't think of Guts in such strict terms, I my opinion he's one of the most human characters in Berserk. He feels more deeply than just about anybody else around him, and lives by his passions, which sometimes involves shedding a tear.

As for being messed up, I don't think he's all that maladjusted; he just someone who feels in a world that is dispassionate.
 
W

Wraith King

I exist in the shadow of my unrealized dream
Tenro said:
:isidro: Okay, that was a bit scary.

Seriously though, there was a point there. You can't think of Guts in such strict terms, I my opinion he's one of the most human characters in Berserk. He feels more deeply than just about anybody else around him, and lives by his passions, which sometimes involves shedding a tear.

As for being messed up, I don't think he's all that maladjusted; he just someone who feels in a world that is dispassionate.
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Eh strict terms? ..is this about what i said cause i was more vague then strict heh.. anyways how can you think guts can be so feeling in that world and not be maladjusted? What you have to consider is that going through the eclipse in particular pushed guts over the edge - sure he liked to fight before but he wasn’t the type to sadistically torture his opponents - demonic though they may be.. but he seems to have become more stable over time also i don’t think its possible for an individual of right mind to achieve the things guts does and face the things he faces.. at least it makes being a little - or very - screwed up an advantage..
 
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Ng51386

Guest
Guts is an antisocial human trying to become social. He believes that he doesnt need others, but realizes that that's what he yearns for. When he finally realizes it, he has completely lost it all due to the one whom he thought was one of his if not most dearest of friends.

Let's see how cynical you become after that :schierke:
 
I

IsolatioN

Last Soldier Standing
Thats one of the most amazing things about Berserk. Guts and his entire persona, and all that he's been through. It's really amazingly complex developtment. Randomly, I'll feel really depressed for Guts at random points when reading the manga(post-eclipse). Thinking of all he's been through and has tried to endure.

I think Ng51386 pointed it out in an interesting way. He is sort of anti-social, but he doesn't want others to look down on him. He wants to prove himself and his devotion to all those around him. He couldn't stand Gambino always looking down on him, so he pushed himself to learn the sword to it's limits. He couldn't stand Griffith looking down on him, so he set off to find his "dream" which, if he found, he probably would pursue and become the best, much like he did with learning the sword.

Alas, he found he had all that he needed.. Until it was all taken from him by the one person he thought he could truely call his friend. Now he seeks revenge. He doesn't want to be looked down upon any more. Remember volume 3 when Femto says to Guts "still squirming around in your pathetic existance, I see"(or something of the like). Guts couldn't stand that. Femto was looking down on him. In the words of Guts "...This "pathetic existance" got you where you are now...!"
 
W

Wraith King

I exist in the shadow of my unrealized dream
space_elevator said:
Howdy.  My personal opinion would be that Gut's isn't really all that poorly adjusted or psychologically screwed up.  But, I do agree that his character really stands out best when he's doing things that are unthinkable from a modern perspective.  The only things that stand out as psychological slips or morally inconsistent with his personality are scenes like the one where he killed Adonis.  I read that as being intended by the author as sort of analogous to, say, a scene where a recovering alcoholic from a family of alcoholics falls off the wagon at a party one night.  You despair for the character in those moments.

To elaborate, I kind of regard Berserk as one of the rare examples of modern psychology, or even pop psychology(no offense intended), that I don't regard as smarmy BS.  Gut's reactions to his circumstances and struggle to not inflict the same abuses on others that were inflicted on him contrast with the behavior of many of the other characters in the series.  I always thought of Goofus and Gallant whenever Guts and Griffith were depicted in parallel, like when Griffith bedded Charlotte and then Guts and Casca did the deed, the way they behaved and reacted emotionally was very deliberately contrasted, in my opinion.

I think any other character from the series, put through what he's been put through, would react worse and go through more negative change.
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My point exactly
 
M

mike.william

His character is very understandable and plausible. People have core drives and desires that define who they really are, aspects of their personality that are too cemented to ever be completely substituted. On top of these cemented traits, various piles of shit accumulate from the events they go through in life.

I think it's been made pretty clear that at Gut's core he's just a guy that wants to be acknowledged and loved.(damn that sounds sappy). Look at his behavior towards Gambino, Casca, and Griffith....first he fought for Gambino's affection, then he fought for Griffith's affection, and now he fights for Casca. The events in his life added conflicting layers upon his personality, such as the beast, but he's always gonna be that lonely, confused guy looking for affection, regardless of his arbitrary behavior at any given time.

In contrast, you had Griffith...his cemented traits were elitism and the desire for that goddamned castle. No matter what he went through, he was always gonna be chasing that castle at the expense of others.

Griffith = fundamentally an asshole
Guts = fundamentally a nice guy
 
C

CnC

Ad Oculos
mike.william said:
His character is very understandable and plausible. People have core drives and desires that define who they really are, aspects of their personality that are too cemented to ever be completely substituted. On top of these cemented traits, various piles of shit accumulate from the events they go through in life.

Griffith = fundamentally an asshole
Guts = fundamentally a nice guy
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If it were that simple this story would be boring. Griffith strives to define himself just as Guts does. Its mentioned early on in Vol. 3's flashback.
 
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