Author Topic: Episode 269  (Read 36496 times)

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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2006, 07:15:29 AM »
Not Beast Swordsman?

From what I can recall, Zodd took that one already. :zodd:  (At least that's what the title of episode 181 implied).

darkbane

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #126 on: February 21, 2006, 05:04:21 PM »
Just say "Black Beast" and be done with it.

Dunno about "past life", but dare not speculate about SK at all since we know almost nothing.

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #127 on: February 21, 2006, 05:12:42 PM »
Just say "Black Beast" and be done with it.

Dunno about "past life", but dare not speculate about SK at all since we know almost nothing.
Well, we're sure that he was the previous owner of the armor.  That's certainly a good head start on nothing.

"Skully - It is true, that armour is something I wore" (Ep 237).
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline skethee2

Re: Episode 269
« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2006, 05:15:10 AM »
wow...great episode
Lots of surprises in this episode

Beast is amazing :chomp:

darkbane

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2006, 08:18:52 AM »
Well, we're sure that he was the previous owner of the armor.  That's certainly a good head start on nothing.
That's why it's "almost" nothing :) We don't know anything about the circumstances, except that he bled to death, right?

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2006, 04:32:07 PM »
That's why it's "almost" nothing :) We don't know anything about the circumstances, except that he bled to death, right?
We know more than "nothing".  Read Griff's and my posts above.  As to what the circumstances were, who cares?   They wouldn't tell us anything new about the nature of the armor.  That's not to say I'm not naturally curious about them. However, given Skully's confession on the subject in ep 237, we aren't barred from speculation.

Anyway, if you "don't dare speculate" why bother posting?  You're wasting our time with your baseless questioning.
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darkbane

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2006, 07:14:44 PM »
We know more than "nothing".  Read Griff's and my posts above. 
I did. Again. Especially your "upshift" contributed a lot. C'mon. :D

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As to what the circumstances were, who cares?   
I care. I care about anything that adds depth to the Berserk universe, and this would be one interesting story to read.

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They wouldn't tell us anything new about the nature of the armor.
So you've got it all figured out already, to the point that there's nothing more to add to it. Congrats. Unfortunately, I am not so convinced that we know every nook and cranny of the armor's secret. SK is obviously not dead and yet not alive, so we still don't really understand the transformation that happens (always? sometimes?) when a "Berserker" (for lack of a better term) bleeds to death.

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That's not to say I'm not naturally curious about them. However, given Skully's confession on the subject in ep 237, we aren't barred from speculation.
But you just said that you don't care.

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Anyway, if you "don't dare speculate" why bother posting?  You're wasting our time with your baseless questioning.
I ain't exactly barring anyone from speculation. I am neither enabled nor entitled to do that. If you think that's what I meant, you misunderstood me, for which I apologize... As usual, your tone of voice is pointlessly offending, which isn't really called for. You're the boss around here, can't you at least act like one? (And please don't take this as flame bait, I'm only curious.)

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2006, 07:36:08 PM »
Especially your "upshift" contributed a lot. C'mon. :D
What?

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I care. I care about anything that adds depth to the Berserk universe, and this would be one interesting story to read.
Read more carefully.  The circumstances surrounding his bleeding to death (i.e. who he was fighting in that instance) would not tell us more of the armor's nature.  We already know that it's a dangerous armor that can bleed its wearer to death.  How could the circumstances explain that in more detail? 

What YOU want is to know the circumstances for your own curiosity, not for how it applies to the armor.  And in that respect, I am in agreeance (and I said as much in my earlier post, but you convienantly didn't quote that...).

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So you've got it all figured out already, to the point that there's nothing more to add to it. Congrats. Unfortunately, I am not so convinced that we know every nook and cranny of the armor's secret. SK is obviously not dead and yet not alive, so we still don't really understand the transformation that happens (always? sometimes?) when a "Berserker" (for lack of a better term) bleeds to death.
When was Skull Knight's "transformation" ever the subject at hand?  Seems like you've had an internal argument you failed to post here. I'd love to hear it.  Your post was just a TAD vague, you know.  Anyway, I simply restated information surrounding Skull Knight and the armor that you seemed to be ignoring, for whatever reason.

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But you just said that you don't care.
As I said above, the circumstances of how he BLED TO DEATH won't help us understand the armor any more than we currently do.

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I ain't exactly barring anyone from speculation. I am neither enabled nor entitled to do that.
You said, "dare not speculate," as if we know nothing applicable about Skull Knight's past.  What did you really mean, then?  Maybe in the future you should specify exactly what you're thinking....

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As usual, your tone of voice is pointlessly offending, which isn't really called for. You're the boss around here, can't you at least act like one? (And please don't take this as flame bait, I'm only curious.)
I was acting like the boss by questioning your worthless contribution to the discussion: that we DARE NOT SPECULATE about Skull Knight's past.  You may as well have posted: "Hi, I'm not paying attention and don't really feel like saying anything constructive." It certainly would have taken less time, and contributed just as much.
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darkbane

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2006, 08:06:02 PM »
What?
"Quick, Guts! Upshift into BERSERK MODE! Serpico, go to WINDY MODE!" - Nice sarcasm, really, but adds zero to anything, and is as much a waste of time as anything. :)

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Read more carefully.  The circumstances surrounding his bleeding to death (i.e. who he was fighting in that instance) would not tell us more of the armor's nature.  We already know that it's a dangerous armor that can bleed its wearer to death.  How could the circumstances explain that in more detail? 
I think that by describing of what happens to him immediately after and in the next few hours after the "bleeding to death" incident, we would gain a wealth of understanding about the armor that goes beyound the "it's dangerous" sticker. We know you're supposed to lose your humanity, somehow, during or before that, but how it all ties in exactly is up in the air afaik.

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What YOU want is to know the circumstances for your own curiosity, not for how it applies to the armor.  And in that respect, I am in agreeance (and I said as much in my earlier post, but you convienantly didn't quote that...).
It's both. But I don't need to quote something that I'm agreeing with you on, that would be a waste of time (no pun-like reference to any previous posts intended...). (By the way, the adjective form is spelled as "conveniently").

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When was Skull Knight's "transformation" ever the subject at hand?  Seems like you've had an internal argument you failed to post here. I'd love to hear it. 
The reason for the transformation must be intimately connected to the armor, making it the subject at hand. Not to mention they/we were discussing Guts' future transformation with respect to wearing the armor, to begin with (See Griff's post).

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Your post was just a TAD vague, you know. 
I know :D That is something I've regretted already, I didn't take time to formulate anything properly at that point and it's biting me now.

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Anyway, I simply restated information surrounding Skull Knight and the armor that you seemed to be ignoring, for whatever reason.
Not really, they don't contain enough substance yet to work with though, imho.

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As I said above, the circumstances of how he BLED TO DEATH won't help us understand the armor any more than we currently do.
As I said above, I think that's not true. Let's take a rain check on that one till it comes up in the manga, though.

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You said, "dare not speculate," as if we know nothing applicable about Skull Knight's past.  What did you really mean, then?  Maybe in the future you should specify exactly what you're thinking....
I was thinking about the "SK in the past life" thing. Griff's already said everything I said here, actually, the one thing that's off for me was the "past life", making it sound like he reincarnated or something. But because we really don't know enough about either the armor or SK, I didn't venture to put forward a theory. I guess it's not very constructive, if only because I did not put it in clear words...

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I was acting like the boss by questioning your worthless contribution to the discussion: that we DARE NOT SPECULATE about Skull Knight's past.  You may as well have posted: "Hi, I'm not paying attention and don't really feel like saying anything constructive." It certainly would have taken less time, and contributed just as much.
If you read it again, you'll notice that I never said a word about what YOU or anyone ELSE dares or doesn't dare. Whatever else my post was, it wasn't accusing or forbidding anyone from anything... You might be surprised to learn that I do read posts in a thread I post in :) so the rest of what you say is, apart from being an insult, which I can live with, also quite applicable to the first half of your post on page 5, right? -_-;

If you want to discuss this further, I suggest a pm, as there's not likely to be any more SK-related material in response to this post :D

Online Walter

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2006, 08:34:39 PM »
I'm really curious how the details of SK's past would change the fact that Guts is in imminent danger of being devoured by the armor.  So far all you've done was remind us that we don't know the specific process of the devouring.  But, you obviously have thoughts on the subject, so why not voice them instead of daring not to speculate...?

PS:
(By the way, the adjective form is spelled as "conveniently").
Dunno about "past life", but dare not speculate about SK at all since we know almost nothing.
By the way, generally a sentence with this structure requires you to specify a subject (ex: I, you, we, God, etc...) 

Thanks in advance for not posting vaguely in the future.   :void:
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Offline Mage

Re: Episode 269
« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2006, 10:54:27 PM »
Here are my thoughts:   :carcus:


Gaeseric wore the cursed armor, which shaped itself to his Od (as it did when Guts wore it) so it looked like a skull.  He then died in it or was just about to die and was either transformed by the armor alone or by Flora alone or by both into the Skull Knight.  Skully and Flora foreshadowed that Schierke and Guts are going to face the same situation at some point, though fate is a 'spiral', not a circle, and they may choose differently...given this wording (maybe I'm hallucinating that conversation), the parallels between Guts/Schierke and Skully/Flora, and the growing importance on the bond between Guts/Schierke's...it leads me to believe that it was a collaborative 'choice' to transform Skully (or just to choose to use the armor which transformed Skully)...regardless of how it happened, we (and they) already know the results so I don't see the "how" as being important.
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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2006, 06:20:26 AM »
Here are my thoughts:   :carcus:


Gaeseric wore the cursed armor, which shaped itself to his Od (as it did when Guts wore it) so it looked like a skull.  He then died in it or was just about to die and was either transformed by the armor alone or by Flora alone or by both into the Skull Knight.  Skully and Flora foreshadowed that Schierke and Guts are going to face the same situation at some point, though fate is a 'spiral', not a circle, and they may choose differently...given this wording (maybe I'm hallucinating that conversation), the parallels between Guts/Schierke and Skully/Flora, and the growing importance on the bond between Guts/Schierke's...it leads me to believe that it was a collaborative 'choice' to transform Skully (or just to choose to use the armor which transformed Skully)...regardless of how it happened, we (and they) already know the results so I don't see the "how" as being important.

I don't know if it was Flora alone. I recall a dicussion on BSOM, maybe 6 or 7 years ago, about a pannel in volume 18 where Puck meets the SkullKnight. I *think* puck says he senses something about the skullknight not unlike a fairy, or something. It prompted a lot of discussion (someone feel free to correct me).

Anyway, I'm not sure if this aura that Puck refers to something similar to the spirits that surround the magic trinkets that Guts' band now have, or if it is a spicifically elven. That theory ties in very well with the "mysterious revelation" that popped up years earlier on a Japanese BBS that claimed to answer all of Berserk's past. One of the claims made was that The SkullKnight was Gaseric, whom, near death, wandered into a grove of elves and they showed pity for him, tranfering his dying spirit to the armor he now appears as.

None of this has ever been confirmed as anything but wild fan-speculation, like those that surfaced about the Matrix revolutions before it's release, but some people back in the day were really putting stock into it.

edit: it appears this board has no spoiler tags  :puck:

Offline okami

Re: Episode 269
« Reply #137 on: February 24, 2006, 03:17:58 PM »
Perhaps Schierke is providing some additional power + control to Guts in his current form.

It does seem like he's doing a lot better with killing the Makara. Dispatching half a dozen so quickly and all. Seemed like the last time the beast killed a Makara it took a bit more out of him.

I doubt that Schierke is a source of additional power, at least from the evidence provided in this episode. And I say this just because if you look through Guts history of fighting, sure, he'll get his ass handed to him, but he always comes out stronger... and this was before the strength provided by the armor. Think about it like this, would Guts have been able to kill those countless trolls if he just started out as the Blackswordsman after surving the first eclipse?
Then again...
It is pretty interesting how Schierke is where Guts right eye was... maybe she's providing some form of sanity in the midst of his berserker rage? Or, maybe she might have finally lost her control of being within the confines of such huge power, like how she was when she summoned the River spirit (can't think of the spirit's name, sorry).
the end, lol

Offline remydat

Re: Episode 269
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2006, 09:14:57 PM »
Missing something? On the contrary, you just made up a bunch of stuff! =)

Anyway, just to get everyone on the same page; we know Skully wore it at some point and likely was the last since it was shaped like a skull. We also know the last wearer reportedly "died" on their feet fighting in it (because of it noteably; literally devoured him, crushing all his bones and bleeding him dry). So, it's only prudent to assume that was Skull Knight in a past life. And that's about as far as we can go with any certainty since we don't know what happened to Skull Knight after (or during) that, if anything, to contribute to his current state. For all we know, it was just the armor itself.

It is supposed to be cursed, and according to Skull Knight, the armor changes you just by living in it, let alone dying in it. You literally start to lose your humanity, and in the end the whole point of the curse might be that it uses you up and eats you alive, body and soul, until all that's left is whatever the armor makes of you. Guts is under the impression he's going to be careful and avoid such a fate, but that may not be possible as long as he wears it.

Beast Knight, anyone? :chomp: :beast: :badbone:

Is this post and the one where you and someone else discuss Gaiseric simply flesh out in more detail what I was getting at which is that Skull Knight seems to have walked down the same road Guts is traveling.  Not sure how you are saying anything different. 

Oh and I asked earlier because on the previous page there was a lot of people speculating about the effects of the armour and what will happen to Schierke, etc. and so I thought I missed something new.  Because if Guts and Schierke are simply walking down the same path already traveled by Skull Knight, Flora and their unknown companions, then wasn't sure what all the speculation was about.  Of course, there will be some differences due to "choice" but it seems their "fate" would be similar.  In fact, I forgot where I heard it but wouldn't be surprised if Guts is Skull Knight.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 09:33:02 PM by remydat »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 269
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2006, 11:14:40 PM »
Here are my thoughts:

Gaeseric wore the cursed armor, which shaped itself to his Od (as it did when Guts wore it) so it looked like a skull.  He then died in it or was just about to die and was either transformed by the armor alone or by Flora alone or by both into the Skull Knight.  Skully and Flora foreshadowed that Schierke and Guts are going to face the same situation at some point, though fate is a 'spiral', not a circle, and they may choose differently...given this wording (maybe I'm hallucinating that conversation), the parallels between Guts/Schierke and Skully/Flora, and the growing importance on the bond between Guts/Schierke's...it leads me to believe that it was a collaborative 'choice' to transform Skully (or just to choose to use the armor which transformed Skully)...regardless of how it happened, we (and they) already know the results so I don't see the "how" as being important.

Good stuff. And yeah, Flora basically says to Skully that Guts and Schierke don't have to repeat the mistakes they made. The question is, what were those mistakes exactly? Obviously something, at least, involving the armor, which is why the conversation Skully had with Guts on the beach interests me. I don't think people take Skull Knight's warning seriously enough (including Guts) and it hasn't been given proper examination. Let's just take look at a sampling of what Skully says about the armor (Click here for Saiki's full translation):

"Losing certain colors in the eye

The tongue loses taste

Finger tips tire from shaking

That is an omen

Wearing that armour, and fighting more battles as the Berserk

Light, voice, warmth.....

You would lose many things

The Od that resides in that armour is the same as a flames that never burns out. Even if you hold if off, it will still burn. And any chance it gets, it will easily become a massive flame

Even if a charm is on it, do not let your guard down

If you wish to stay as a human"

That's some pretty heavy sounding shit; says a lot about the armor, and obviously suggests a lot about Skull Knight (don't suppose he was speaking from personal experience, do you? =).

I don't know if it was Flora alone. I recall a dicussion on BSOM, maybe 6 or 7 years ago, about a pannel in volume 18 where Puck meets the SkullKnight. I *think* puck says he senses something about the skullknight not unlike a fairy, or something. It prompted a lot of discussion (someone feel free to correct me).

Anyway, I'm not sure if this aura that Puck refers to something similar to the spirits that surround the magic trinkets that Guts' band now have, or if it is a spicifically elven.

Yeah, around the introduction of more specific and "standardized" magic forces and elementals, I would have been leaning towards it just being Skully's magical nature, but again, Skully on the beach:

"The land of the elves you seek. The lord of the elves who lives there. Who's name is Hanafubuku King.

With it's powers

It maybe possible

For her

For the branded girl to regain her heart"

Again, is Skully speaking from personal experience? It's certainly more likely than not at this point; perhaps he once needed to regain his own "heart"?

That theory ties in very well with the "mysterious revelation" that popped up years earlier on a Japanese BBS that claimed to answer all of Berserk's past. One of the claims made was that The SkullKnight was Gaseric, whom, near death, wandered into a grove of elves and they showed pity for him, tranfering his dying spirit to the armor he now appears as.

None of this has ever been confirmed as anything but wild fan-speculation, like those that surfaced about the Matrix revolutions before it's release, but some people back in the day were really putting stock into it.

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=67.0

There it is, Olivier's second post for those that haven't read it. I don't know that people had that much faith in this back then (at least here), or that we should now; but, I've noticed elements of it get more and more credible with each revelation. Hell, it's almost prophetic in certain details, most notably how it implies etherial physics of the the Berserk universe similar to what's actually come to be. To paraphrase Olivier, the worst part by far. =)

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't think of it as more than good speculation. It's still obvious and general enough that it would cover any number of scenarios (and Miura's real work is in the details), but I can't deny it's interesting; and how often does speculation of this nature and magnitude ever seem to become more accurate and credible as time goes on?