Kind Guts that's more like Griffith then we think?

I am soooooo glad that I found this site.  It makes the Berserk universe alot more interesting.

Anyways, for this thread, I was wondering if anyone has been thinking of the same thing as me.  Is Guts more like Griffith then we first think?  This is in contrast to Griffith before he became a God hand.  I'm talking about the charismatic Griffith that people like, or completely hate.

Griffith is able to rise to power quickly using his charisma, his great wit and knowledge.  Sure, he helps out others, but that's mostly so that he can get something in return.  The only time I can recall when he helped just to be nice was when he first met Casca.  He puts on this facade to get others to either help him, or to manipulate them into his schemes.  He almost does nothing nice for free.

Guts on the other hand, tends to be a good guy all around.  Sure he kills a bunch of people, and seems to be stoic when it comes to people he doesn't know, but he is quite nice.  This seems to have been discussed before, but not specifically, so I started this.  He also seems to be able to get people to trust and like him, no matter what the situation started out as.  A good example would be Farnese.  At first, she totally hates him, but he still saves her when she was about to smack her head against the rocks.  This wasn't to get something in return, but he did it because ....... I'm not really sure.  I'll just say he's a nice guy.  But now she looks up to him as the guy that will open her eyes to the 'real' world (I use this term loosely because the real world is rapidly shifting in Berserk).  I also think that she likes him.  I say this because when her mother asks "Do you have someone you love?", she first thinks of Guts.  Casca is another good example.  She completely hates him, and would have killed him initially had it not been for Griffith, but ends up in love with him.  Even Corkus likes him at the end.  I get this from when he says "It's not your fault Griffith turned into that.  Definetly not, definetly not..." in Vol. 9 after he defeats Silat.  Of course, that could just be him saying Guts wasn't that important to the Hawks.  And is it just me, or does everyone seem to initially hate Guts (except Griffith, Puck and the like)?

Griffith is able to bring people too him because he makes himself appear like a man they should follow.  Guts is just being Guts.  Because of that, the first impression people get from him is that he is a cold, cruel, heartless man(reminds me of when Puck says "From now on you call yourself the Heartless Swordsman ..... Goodbye and good luck, Hearless Swordsman!"   Gave me a chuckle).  But after meeting with him more then once, people start to like him without even knowing it.  He is able to get people to follow him and be extremely loyal to him.  I think Griffith saw this in him, that's why he wanted him to stay.  Don't forget that Guts is also smart, even though he mostly appears dumb.  If he wasn't smart, then he wouldn't have survived the fight with the Apostles, no matter how strong he was.  Don't forget what Rickert said on the Hill of Swords "Gut's wits are incredible!"  He is even kind.  If he didn't care about other people (besides the ones traveling with him), he wouldn't have turned Jill away.  He would have just said "Whatever", and killed her when a ghost took over her body.

To conclude this, I believe that Guts better at getting people to follow and like him then Griffith was.  He never has any schemes, and would never betray his friends, unless they screwed him over first.  He is also very honest and honorable (Serpico says this after their duel in Virtanis [or Vritanis, I can't tell]).

What do you think?

Added March 05, 2006:

I also wanted to mention what Forest Wraith said in his reply. Gut's does seem to be able to say the right thing at the right time. He says things that give people hope, help them realize something, or just say things that are necessary. That's probably another reason why people are really loyal to him. He also says some pretty great lines.

I agree with your assesment overall, I think that you are dead on about Guts. He is just brutally honest a lot of the time and does not care what others will think of him and his actions. Obviously, with the life he has led, keeping up with appearences are one of his last concerns. Yet he also still cares about people and is willing to swing his sword to protect others.
As for Griffith; in spite of what he has become I strongly feel that there is more to him then his just being a villian. I agree that he does manipulate people and that he has sociopathic tendecies but there are things that he has done and said that lead me to wonder if he is not beyond redemption of some kind.
Namely; risking his life for Guts when they first met Zodd; His vow to not destroy others for his dream which actually led him to sell himself for a period of time and his innitial resistance to the idea of sacrificing the Band of the Hawk.

Well, that was a very jumbled way to explain that they are both charismatic, and I agree that they are, but for different reasons. I don't think Guts is any more charismatic than Griffith though.

Guts draws attention because of his inhuman destructive power and ability to pretty much fight against challenge presented to him. His strength makes people want to lean on him for support, and even Griffith fell into this behavior.

Griffith drew attention because of his social attractiveness(good looks and smooth talk) along with his excellence as a commander.

So Griffith was more seductive, Guts is more "shock and awe", but they both demand the attention of pretty much anyone that comes into contact with them.

[Golden Age] Griffith's charisma is more based on his vision and other-worldly charm, his eloquence with speech and brilliant strategies. It helps that Miura designed the character to be handsome.

Guts charisma or ability to make people empathise [as best they can] is based more on his humanity and loyalty to his friends. His incredible battle skills and physical strength as mentioned also help in gaining attention.

This is why Guts has 6-7 friends following him around at present and why [Golden Age] Griffith had an army. Fair enough Guts commanded a sizable force, but only because Griffith told them to obey Guts.

Depends on how you define charisma.

Guts does have an ability to lead others though. Take the scene after he saves Casca and they have to avoid the patrol that's after them; then when Schierke laments having to take responsibility for the town that is being raided by the trolls. He knows exactly what to say to motivate someone on a deeply psychological level using reverse-psychology and making them want to prove him wrong. He should be able to improvise some excellent tactics for an army as well if his intelligence and incredible quick thinking in one-on-one combat is any indication.
Now, if he could draw a group of people as large as an army to fight with him . . . He doesn't seem like he would be the type to go out of his way to do it but I could see a an army of people rallying to him over time.

Androoh said:

Fair enough Guts commanded a sizable force, but only because Griffith told them to obey Guts.

Click to expand...

Wrong, I think you should re-read volume 12.

Androoh said:

This is why Guts has 6-7 friends following him around at present and why [Golden Age] Griffith had an army. Fair enough Guts commanded a sizable force, but only because Griffith told them to obey Guts.

Click to expand...

Who says Guts couldn't get an army if he wanted one? It wasn't until the Casca incident that he decided to allow anyone to follow him. He tried his best to push people away and he still couldn't keep them from coming to him(Puck being a good example). He's definetely got the charisma Griffith had, he just doesn't know it and doesn't purposely utilize it like Griffith did. I also wonder if the Raiders weren't more loyal to Guts than to Griffith, but it might be hard to make a case for or against that.

Of course the Raiders were more loyal to Guts, they were willing to follow him after the successful rescue attempt (after they realized what happened to Griffith). Their decision may have been different had Griffith not been in such an irreperable state, but I still believe they would have gone after Guts.

I'd say a big reason for it is that Guts just couldn't protect many more people than he is at the moment. With the things chasing after him, plus apostles and etc varoius misc demons, any army he built up, unless it was comprised of monsters such as Griffith now has, would be slaughtered.