Author Topic: Happiest moment in Berserk  (Read 39566 times)

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Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2006, 09:40:49 PM »
Griffith wins battles based as much on the stupidity of others as on his own ability
Can't agree I'm afraid.  You see I think it's Griffith's ability to forsee others stupidity that allows him to win battles.  He's a brilliant strategist, if not genius.  He knows how and when others will react and he incorporates that into his plan.  He even admits having Guts' actions in mind when making plans. He can read people and maneuver himself around their actions. Thats not luck, that genius. Of course in vol. 8 he misjudges his opponent for the first time which leads to his downfall.  But until then, he was the best. 

I was never really able to accept that Guts was in the right place in the Hawks,
I know you explained why you felt this way, but remember in vol. 12 he admits that The Band of the Hawk WAS the place where he might have belonged all along, he just has a bad habit of realizing things when it's too late. Too me, the time he spent with the Hawks seems to be the happiest time of Guts life.  He was accepted, cared about(by most) relied on, and felt true friendship, even if he didn't realize it yet.  But if you still don't see it that way, then lets agree to disagree.

Offline Holsety

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2006, 01:05:30 AM »
Can't agree I'm afraid.  You see I think it's Griffith's ability to forsee others stupidity that allows him to win battles.  He's a brilliant strategist, if not genius.  He knows how and when others will react and he incorporates that into his plan.  He even admits having Guts' actions in mind when making plans. He can read people and maneuver himself around their actions. Thats not luck, that genius. Of course in vol. 8 he misjudges his opponent for the first time which leads to his downfall.  But until then, he was the best. 

See, my attitude is...to rely on that is not a good decision. If Griffith had brought more troops, which likely would've been permissable, he wouldn't have been risking as much. Yes, the strategy worked...but exactly how sure was that homopederast lord to leave the castle? Griffith judged him entirely based on an encounter that was, what, at least a few years passed? If the guy hadn't held Griffith in a "special place" in his heart, then The Band of the Hawk would have been doomed in the battle. Hell, it didn't even need to be that much of a change; if the guy wasn't a complete strategical idiot, and valued the entirety of Doldrey over Griffith, he wouldn't have made the decision he did. Griffith based his decision on an encounter he had about 4 years ago, not enough basis to risk one's entire dream as I saw it.

Would it have been a good thing to use in a tight spot? Yes. Was that years ago encounter worth placing the entire band in danger for? Additionally, without even a supplementary army from Midland? I can't see it being justified. War isn't just about coming up with a possible plan for victory, you have to come up with a plan that has the least possible risk in terms of the troops you put in, amount you stand to lose, and what you stand to gain. For the king, trading the Hawks for a possible chance at ending the war was a good decision (IMO this is why Griffith didn't ask for troops, he wanted to ensure that he got the attack). For Griffith, seeking his own dream, I can't see it as justified. Things could've gone wrong very, very easily; with supplemental troops he would've at least increased the chance that a retreat in the case of a slipup would've gone off with more survivors. Ok, though, I'm really getting nowhere fast in the overall context of this thread... Basically, I felt like the Band's success was in many ways due to Guts and I felt like he got overshadowed and absorbed into something that didn't fully satisfy him, because Griffith's dreams weren't Guts' - so I've been unable to really agree with Guts feelings as "right" (???). Honestly, when he finally broke away from Griffith...well, the foreshadowing of Griff's fall was in plain view ("You'll get over this, right?" Guts thinks to himself), but I still felt kinda elated about it. Like, finally, he's no longer selling himself as a killer and living his life for another.

I also felt like some of the

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I know you explained why you felt this way, but remember in vol. 12 he admits that The Band of the Hawk WAS the place where he might have belonged all along, he just has a bad habit of realizing things when it's too late. Too me, the time he spent with the Hawks seems to be the happiest time of Guts life.  He was accepted, cared about(by most) relied on, and felt true friendship, even if he didn't realize it yet.  But if you still don't see it that way, then lets agree to disagree.

I agree 'bout disagreeing - your viewpoint is definitely fair. I personally can't accept it because I only saw the Hawks as a sort of resolution of others' dreams for Guts, and that Griffith was moreover a bad thing for Guts, even if he didn't feel that. But that's arguably just my own biases darkening a bright moment.

I also felt like there was a sort of twist of irony to the stuff in volume 12; Gaston and the other raiders are all promising to follow Guts into battle, the same way they followed Griffith. Griffith was shaped, badly, by his sacrifices of the lives of others. When that little thread of "they love guts" appeared, I got worried, esp. because of the partial revelation of Griffith's attitudes and such towards his troops that had occurred before.
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Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2006, 01:38:58 AM »
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Griffith based his decision on an encounter he had about 4 years ago, not enough basis to risk one's entire dream as I saw it.

Well certainly not but that's where more of the deeper meanings come into play. Is Griffith really that smart? Is he lucky? Or is it all part of their fate.

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Was that years ago encounter worth placing the entire band in danger for?

I completely agree that it was risky and he his plans are, by practical standereds, totally unreliable.  But it doesn't really matter, the technicalities. Sure it could have gone completely wrong, but it didn't. Thats all that matters.

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War isn't just about coming up with a possible plan for victory, you have to come up with a plan that has the least possible risk in terms of the troops you put in, amount you stand to lose, and what you stand to gain

Well I'm sure theres hundreds of things that come into account when planning a siege. I'm no military genius so I don't know, but anybody could argue about "How to win castle siege" in the best way possible. Just look at volume 7 when their at the council.

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I felt like the Band's success was in many ways due to Guts and I felt like he got overshadowed and absorbed into something that didn't fully satisfy him, because Griffith's dreams weren't Guts

That's pretty much case I'd say.  I can't imagine how Griffith would have done things withought Guts. But to me that all ties into the fate versus causality thing. Just as Griffith needed guts to get him so far (White Phoenix) Guts was also the object that would make Griffith fall so low when he left.

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Griffith was moreover a bad thing for Guts

Yes I can agree with you on that, he definitely was and you could even say Guts was a bad thing for Griffith. They weighed each other down in the end. I was just thinking more about the question on the happiest moment. It just seems that with everything thats happening now, when I look back to the golden age, it seems like a nostalgia of the best days, when a war with humans was the worst that was happening. Granted it was preluding all the horrors that awaited the characters, it still seemed the most upbeat.

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I also felt like there was a sort of twist of irony to the stuff in volume 12

It's funny you said that because I was also thinking that. Yet there's so much irony throughout berserk I wouldn't know where to begin. Regardless though I only mentioned it to show Guts' realization of how everything he wanted could have been right there in front of him. But it was too late at the time. Basically I think it's hard to find truly happy moments in berserk. Overall I think the Golden Age arc as a whole is the best because...well preluding was The Black Swordsman and after the eclipse is Retribution so everything in between there seemed to be the simplest time for Guts. But I see your point. It's tough.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 01:43:04 AM by Oberi »

Offline Walter

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2006, 02:47:08 AM »
Holsety, I appreciate you giving a realist angle to Griffith's strategies.  However, I think you're taking it a bit far.  Logistics and rational action don't apply to Griffith, whose ascendence has been planned for 1000 years.  He doesn't need to be a perfect, flawless leader with a contingency plan for every possible outcome.  He's destined to win these sorties.

But if you want to get nitty gritty about Griffith's dangerous choices, such as in the siege of Doldrey, he's always relied on whims like the direction of the wind and the folly of his enemies to succeed, and it's worked.

I wouldn't personally call him a BRILLIANT tactician on our real-world scale of leaders such as Alexander, Napoleon, Wellington or  Rommell, but he shines among the ranks of Midland and Tudor's generals, who are mostly, let's be honest, ignoramuses.
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Offline Gurifisu

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2006, 04:54:58 AM »
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See, my attitude is...to rely on that is not a good decision. If Griffith had brought more troops, which likely would've been permissable, he wouldn't have been risking as much. Yes, the strategy worked...but exactly how sure was that homopederast lord to leave the castle? Griffith judged him entirely based on an encounter that was, what, at least a few years passed? If the guy hadn't held Griffith in a "special place" in his heart, then The Band of the Hawk would have been doomed in the battle. Hell, it didn't even need to be that much of a change; if the guy wasn't a complete strategical idiot, and valued the entirety of Soldiery over Griffith, he wouldn't have made the decision he did. Griffith based his decision on an encounter he had about 4 years ago, not enough basis to risk one's entire dream as I saw it.

Would it have been a good thing to use in a tight spot? Yes. Was that years ago encounter worth placing the entire band in danger for? Additionally, without even a supplementary army from Midland? I can't see it being justified. War isn't just about coming up with a possible plan for victory, you have to come up with a plan that has the least possible risk in terms of the troops you put in, amount you stand to lose, and what you stand to gain. For the king, trading the Hawks for a possible chance at ending the war was a good decision (IMO this is why Griffith didn't ask for troops, he wanted to ensure that he got the attack). For Griffith, seeking his own dream, I can't see it as justified. Things could've gone wrong very, very easily; with supplemental troops he would've at least increased the chance that a retreat in the case of a slip up would've gone off with more survivors. OK, though, I'm really getting nowhere fast in the overall context of this thread... Basically, I felt like the Band's success was in many ways due to Guts and I felt like he got overshadowed and absorbed into something that didn't fully satisfy him, because Griffith's dreams weren't Guts - so I've been unable to really agree with Guts feelings as "right" (Huh). Honestly, when he finally broke away from Griffith...well, the foreshadowing of Griff's fall was in plain view ("You'll get over this, right?" Guts thinks to himself), but I still felt kinda elated about it. Like, finally, he's no longer selling himself as a killer and living his life for another.

I also felt like some of the

Yes, but what Griffith was trying to gain was power... he lost very few men in a this battle, and in doing so he set himself up as the invincible leader, one that never loses (and furthermore one that wins while striking a much larger blow on the enemy.  That I think was defiantly part of his consideration.  His main goal was to become king, winning battles is just a step up the castle stairway.

The fact that you say he shouldn't have risked all this... is in fact arbitrary, because it worked.  You can say he shouldn't of done all this, but winning a massive castle assault with that few soldiers... is amazing.

I disagree, with Griffith not being in the league of Alexander, etc.  He was a brilliant tactician, but I believe his abilities were never truly tested.  Griffith is defiantly a great leader.  If you plan on using the second definition of the word tactician (someone who plans, to achieve an end) then Griffith is in a league of his own.  Seeing assassinations just by looking is someones eyes is amazing.  The fact that Tuda (made this was set up by IOE to) was mainly a army of bulky soldiers that didn't think that much, and when their was an exception it was generally countered by something to make sure that Griffith would not lose.

Causality in a way hinders us from seeing Griffith's true potential, and blinds us from seeing whether he could of made some flawless victory over Tuda without the help of cause and effect.
To me, a friend would never help my dream. Thats not something that anyone is compelled to do.  The reason for someone to live is to advance towards their own destiny. If theres someone who tramples over that dream.  He will stake his entire heart and soul and fight against that person.  Even if that person is me.

To me, I feel that a friend is someone who is my equal

-Griffith

Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2006, 11:28:08 AM »
Yea I do believe it's fair to say Griffith was a military genius, I'm pretty sure that was the point of him winning countless battles and manipulating people to do his will. Was he risky? Yes. Could he have lost it all easily? Yes. But regardless like Walter said his life had been mapped out 1000 years in advance. He was supposed to be an extraordinary and brilliant man and he was. Anyway Alexander, Napoleon, Griffith. If Berserk was a history textbook I think Griffith would be amongst those names. Maybe he didn't conquer whole kingdoms but he did start out as a peasant and work his way up, not to metion he didn't really get to finish his plans for Midland since Guts left.  Maybe comparing him to characters like William Wallace or Spartacus would be more appropriate on the fact that they started off as common men and rose up against an empire and won.

Offline Anna

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2006, 04:29:57 AM »
The happiest moment in Berserk for me (and I doubt many would agree) is

1.  When Griffith admits to Casca that he slept with the old man (a fact that I admire not for the act, but for the reasons), and Casca stops him from driving his nails into his flesh.  To me that moment was one of the defining moments of Griffith, and what really composed his humanity.

I know that you're entitled to your opinion, but...that's a bizarre choice. I don't think that that was a particularly "happy" moment - for Griffith or Casca. Casca was extremely distressed, in that scene - and Griffith was clearly putting on a front, for her sake. I mean, you don't go from self-harming one minute, to total happiness the next. Not even if you're Griffith.

That was a beautifully human moment, though. I love the way that Griffith...lets Casca stop him. He almost seems to...soften, at her touch. Even Griff needs/needed a little close human contact, from time to time.

And I agree with those who're saying that Guts' years with the Hawks were the happiest of his life. The friendships, the drinking, the laughter...the water fights! :guts:- and the general sense of belonging he felt, whilst with them. He never should've left Griffith (and the other Hawks); 'twas the biggest mistake of his life, IMO. Guts even confessed his feelings of regret...but, alas, too late....

Oh, this is making me saaad.... :judo:

First post!!! :serpico:


Edited to add: thought of a few "happy moments" (I'm most familiar with volumes 1-13, so most of my picks are taken from them):

1) At the party held in Guts' honour, after the Hawks' first victory with him fighting alongside them. There was a very warm atmosphere. That was Guts' official induction into the Band of the Hawk. I love the panels that depict Guts glancing over at Griffith, who is blithely smiling at him, and then turning back to his drink, with a little "hmph". Sooooo cute! :D

2) Guts and Griffith's water fight by the well. This scene makes me smile from ear to ear - just like Judeau! :D Guts and Griff were so carefree in this scene; just like children (which, technically, they were, at that time). To watch them, you'd never think that they were battle-hardened mercenaries. Also, this was the first scene to properly showcase Griffith's charming boyishness. *sigh*

3) The scene directly afterwards, in which Rickert comes to congratulate Guts on his promotion, and accidentally knocks him into the moat. And then, Pippin joins them, and knocks Rickert in, too! And Casca just looks on at these fools.... ;D

4) A couple of moments at the ball in volume 8: the pinnacle of happiness and achievement for Griffith. First off - Casca and Guts' talk on the balcony. Not a big fan of the couple, but this scene is just heart-warming. Love Guts being all cute about Casca, in her dress. :) But my favourite part of their conversation is Guts' suggestion that Casca ask Griffith for a dance (which, of course, is exactly what she wants). Casca is just adorable when she blushes! "I'd only step on Griffith's feet." Heh. I love the way that, despite his own feelings for Griffith, and his developing feelings for Casca, Guts was trying to push Casca towards Griffith (sometimes literally!), at this point in the series.

The other moment, at the ball, happens after Griffith receives his aristocratic title. His eyes find Guts, who is standing out on the balcony, looking in on him - and they flash each other the loveliest and most genuine smiles I've ever seen, on either of their faces. Guts' smile was full of pride and joy, and Griffith's was a truly beatific grin. Beautiful.

It struck me that the glass pane between Guts and Griffith, in this scene, is sort of a physical representation of the eternal barrier that divides them. Because, even though Guts is extremely proud of Griffith, in this moment, and delighted for him, he is still an outsider, who can never really be comfortable in Griffith's world.

I'll add more, later.
[/size]

« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 05:10:28 PM by Anna »

Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2006, 12:36:32 PM »

 I mean, you don't go from self-harming one minute, to total happiness the next. Not even if you're Griffith.
That was a beautifully human moment, though.
I couldn't agree more. I think it's bizarre as well. It defiantly stands out as an important moment for Griffith and Casca, but I don't see how it's a happry one, especially when compared to others.

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He never should've left Griffith (and the other Hawks)

Thats a hard thing to figure out actually. If Guts stayed Griffith would have most likely taken over the Midland eventually, the Hawks would be nobles, and Guts might be happy.  But at the time after Doldery (and even before that, I think when Guts first overheard Griffith and the princess) the light went off in Guts' head and he realized that he didn't want to live for someone else. He wanted to be his own man, like Griffith, although even Griffith didn't realize that and thats when he lost. My point is when I first read the manga, I was excited that Guts was going off on his own, with his own adventures and thats what Guts wanted at the time. I wouldn't say it's his mistake for leaving, everyones got to search for that one thing, the thing that makes you whole :judo: It just makes me hate griffith more and realize how dumb he was for not realizing that Guts was only trying to be even more of friend to him.

Offline Anna

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2006, 07:41:40 PM »
Quote from: Anna
He never should've left Griffith (and the other Hawks)

Thats a hard thing to figure out actually. If Guts stayed Griffith would have most likely taken over the Midland eventually, the Hawks would be nobles, and Guts might be happy.

The Hawks were already nobles, when Guts left. Griffith was a marriage to Charlotte away from becoming king of Midland. He was on the brink of achieving his dream.

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But at the time after Doldery (and even before that, I think when Guts first overheard Griffith and the princess) the light went off in Guts' head and he realized that he didn't want to live for someone else. He wanted to be his own man, like Griffith, although even Griffith didn't realize that and thats when he lost.

Guts inferred from Griffith's speech at the fountain that Griffith didn't consider him a friend or equal.... But Griffith never actually said that (and he certainly didn't think it, IMO). Guts gave far too much credence to Griffith's words. Another huge mistake from Guts. He should've just confronted Griffith about it. "Griffith, what do I mean to you...?!" Yeah, riiiight!!! XD

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My point is when I first read the manga, I was excited that Guts was going off on his own, with his own adventures and thats what Guts wanted at the time.

I wouldn't say that that's what Guts wanted.... I remember Guts feeling very lonely on his travels, and missing Griff and the other Hawks terribly.... What Guts wanted was to become a friend and "equal" to Griffith: his idol. Guts saw Griffith as being far above himself; he loved and respected Griffith so much that it wasn't enough for him to just be his right-hand man; he needed more from Griffith than that. Being in a position where he would be able to call himself Griffith's equal was, like, Guts' ultimate goal in life. IMO, he left for Griffith, not himself. Oh, the painful irony!

But, the thing is that Griffith already saw Guts as his (only) friend...and he certainly treated him like an equal - even if he didn't consciously see him as one. Guts should've listened to Casca, or shown a little more insight, or even, y'know, confronted Griffith about it!!! Instead, he just tried to take off in the middle of the night!...which is a pretty crappy thing to do to the most important person in your life. *tut, tut*

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I wouldn't say it's his mistake for leaving, everyones got to search for that one thing, the thing that makes you whole :judo: It just makes me hate griffith more and realize how dumb he was for not realizing that Guts was only trying to be even more of friend to him.

Guts' mistake was to completely misjudge what Griffith's reaction to him leaving would be. His mistake was to vastly underestimate his importance to Griffith. He made the mistake of thinking that Griffith was invulnerable; he didn't think that Griffith, his strong idol, could break the way he did. His mistake. Like Casca said, "Griffith is not a god!" (which is an interesting bit of foreshadowing of what he would become...).

If Guts had known what would happen to Griffith, I really don't think he would have left. But, he thought that Griffith could cope with his departure; he thought that it would be nothing more than a minor setback to Griffith. As he walked away, he told himself that, "You [Griffith] will be all right. You can stand. This is just like tripping over a pebble in the road." He was VERY mistaken, as we know.

It occurred to me that Guts never looked at Griffith's face, after he defeated him. Perhaps...he didn't dare, because he was afraid of what he might see there.... I think that, perhaps, Guts did have an inkling of what might happen to Griffith...but he didn't dare entertain the possibility. Because, the idea that Griffith might NOT cope without him was unthinkable. I'm sure this made it all the worse for Guts, when he returned to find that Griffith hadn't coped....[/size]

Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2006, 09:39:46 PM »
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Guts gave far too much credence to Griffith's words. Another huge mistake from Guts.
Yea you see I just don't think I'd put all the mistakes on Guts for these things. Like you say Guts didn't know what Griffith's reactions would be, but that doesn't make it his fault.

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he left for Griffith, not himself

Well, I sorta agree with you but I still think he did it more for himself. But thats just a difference of opinion and the great thing about berserk, people can interpret things differently.  Remember when he gave that speech to Casca "the bonfire of dreams" to me that was him admiring not only Griffith's ambitions but everyones, everyone except his own, because he didn't know what he wanted to do with his life, and when Griffith said something like "With no dreams, to simply live for no better reason, I cannot abide by such a life" that hit Guts where it hurt.

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Guts mistake was to completely misjudge what Griffith's reaction to him leaving would be. His mistake was to vastly underestimate his importance to Griffith. He made the mistake of thinking that Griffith was invulnerable;

Once again, I don't think Guts can be blamed for that. Maybe he did underestimate his own importance (even though he did realize how Griffith valued him more than the others), but still you can't blame Guts for Griffith's actions, I don't think.

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If Guts had known what would happen to Griffith, I really don't think he would have left.

I do. That's the only way he could prove to Griffith that he was a "true friend", at least in Griffith's eyes. Well maybe if he knew that Griffith would be imprisoned and tortured he wouldn't have left , but he seemed very determined to leave, even when Griffith drew his sword.

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It occurred to me that Guts never looked at Griffith's face, after he defeated him. Perhaps...he didn't dare, because he was afraid of what he might see there....

Now that's interesting because I never noticed that. I don't think that that means that Guts made a mistake or anything. Like you said maybe he was afraid of what he might see when facing Griffith again, how horribly he shattered he was.  Anyway I don't mean to completely disagree with you, in fact I do on allot of things, but sometimes I feel like Griffith is responsible for his own actions and became a hypocrite when it came to judging a real friend. Other times I think...man Guts really fucked things up for Griffith. Another twist of Irony is that Guts, the person who made Griffith forget his dream and pretty much lose everything he had, only to gain it all back in becoming a member of the Godhand (was that their fate?) is now the guy who is "swimming against the current". It's like the man who was part of Griffith's fate is now fighting against his own. I just think thats cool. :serpico:

P.S.       
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It struck me that the glass pane between Guts and Griffith, in this scene, is sort of a physical representation of the eternal barrier that divides them. Because, even though Guts is extremely proud of Griffith, in this moment, and delighted for him, he is still an outsider, who can never really be comfortable in Griffith's world.
 
That is some good stuff right there. Once again something I didn't realize. Only makes me admire Miura's use of symbolism throughout. Thank you for pointing that out. :serpico:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2006, 09:49:06 PM by Oberi »

Offline Gurifisu

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2006, 03:46:01 AM »
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I wouldn't say that that's what Guts wanted.... I remember Guts feeling very lonely on his travels, and missing Griff and the other Hawks terribly.... What Guts wanted was to become a friend and "equal" to Griffith: his idol. Guts saw Griffith as being far above himself; he loved and respected Griffith so much that it wasn't enough for him to just be his right-hand man; he needed more from Griffith than that. Being in a position where he would be able to call himself Griffith's equal was, like, Guts' ultimate goal in life. IMO, he left for Griffith, not himself. Oh, the painful irony!

But, the thing is that Griffith already saw Guts as his (only) friend...and he certainly treated him like an equal - even if he didn't consciously see him as one. Guts should've listened to Casca, or shown a little more insight, or even, y'know, confronted Griffith about it!!! Instead, he just tried to take off in the middle of the night!...which is a pretty crappy thing to do to the most important person in your life

While Griffiths' dream still exists he cannot have an equal amoung his comrades... for he is the one that needs to be king (and an equal would distertain from that statement).  so the only way that Griffith had Guts as a friend, is by forgetting his dream; which he clearly said Guts made him do.  So by having Guts as a friend... he has a conflicting value which in the end must be solved.  Though Griffith is finely strewed, and I only pretend to understand.
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I know that you're entitled to your opinion, but...that's a bizarre choice. I don't think that that was a particularly "happy" moment - for Griffith or Casca. Casca was extremely distressed, in that scene - and Griffith was clearly putting on a front, for her sake. I mean, you don't go from self-harming one minute, to total happiness the next. Not even if you're Griffith.
What is happiness?  In that moment Griffiths burden was lightened... you see the side of him that he lost during the eclispe.  It made me happy that Griffith, for one singular moment was brought down from the sky, it showed how others cared for Griffith, and how Griffith (I think) liked that moment of human Empathy.  I don't know, this is all in your opinion mostly... but to me that was a happy moment.
To me, a friend would never help my dream. Thats not something that anyone is compelled to do.  The reason for someone to live is to advance towards their own destiny. If theres someone who tramples over that dream.  He will stake his entire heart and soul and fight against that person.  Even if that person is me.

To me, I feel that a friend is someone who is my equal

-Griffith

Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2006, 11:23:45 AM »
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While Griffiths' dream still exists he cannot have an equal amoung his comrades... for he is the one that needs to be king (and an equal would distertain from that statement).  so the only way that Griffith had Guts as a friend, is by forgetting his dream; which he clearly said Guts made him do.  So by having Guts as a friend... he has a conflicting value which in the end must be solved.  Though Griffith is finely strewed, and I only pretend to understand.

Nicely said.  While that is my same feelings also, you worded it in such a way that makes a lot of sense and cannot be argued (though I bet some will try :serpico:)

Offline CnC

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2006, 03:25:44 PM »
While Griffiths' dream still exists he cannot have an equal amoung his comrades... for he is the one that needs to be king (and an equal would distertain from that statement).

I don't see how Griffith's dream of having his own kingdom or seeking his place in this chaotic world would be interpreted as wanting to be peerless.

so the only way that Griffith had Guts as a friend, is by forgetting his dream; which he clearly said Guts made him do.  So by having Guts as a friend... he has a conflicting value which in the end must be solved.

Again, I don't think think that those two things are mutually exclusive.  Having Guts as a friend doesn't mean he would have to give up his dream, just Guts made Griffith lose sight of his dream.

Griffith's dream is interesting to me because on the surface its kind of silly.  The desire to have one's own kingdom could easily be interpreted as merely a desire for power.  However Griffith said to Guts in a rare showing of openness that he seeks an understanding of his world.  That, IMO, explains the decisions (and sacrifices) he's made up to this point.
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Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2006, 12:24:57 PM »
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Again, I don't think think that those two things are mutually exclusive.  Having Guts as a friend doesn't mean he would have to give up his dream, just Guts made Griffith lose sight of his dream.

Well I think it's meant in a more philosophical way or just in a literary perspective. Technically no Griffith shouldn't have to be like that, but the two ambitions of the characters, as small as Guts was, were too heavy for Griffith and he collapsed.  It's not a statement that's meant to be critical you just kinda of have to understand it.  Griffith was constantly putting his life on the line for Guts over and over because he subconsciously felt friendship. But for him to realize that companionship would be admitting Guts was his equal or even better, he couldn't handle. "When did I fall beneath you?"  I think it's fair to say that with the way Griffith is, he did have conflicting values between his selfishness and his friendship with Guts. He couldn't fathom a friendly "equal" of his by his own definition.

Offline brinco

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2006, 02:35:54 PM »
Griffith was constantly putting his life on the line for Guts over and over because he subconsciously felt friendship.

I don't think that Griffith had felt friendship towards anyone.  He only use people as tools to achieve his dream.  And Guts was an important tool, worthy of risk he's own life.  A charismatic, intelligent, Machiavellian, cold person.  I just think that he saw Guts potential as a extremely useful tool, nothing else.

PS: Excuse me if I am off-topic.

Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2006, 09:51:12 PM »
When Guts tapped Casca's hot ass. It's both Guts and my happiest moment in Berserk.

Offline Anna

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2006, 10:37:36 PM »
Quote from: Anna
Guts mistake was to completely misjudge what Griffith's reaction to him leaving would be. His mistake was to vastly underestimate his importance to Griffith. He made the mistake of thinking that Griffith was invulnerable;

Once again, I don't think Guts can be blamed for that. Maybe he did underestimate his own importance (even though he did realize how Griffith valued him more than the others), but still you can't blame Guts for Griffith's actions, I don't think.

So...who would you blame? Griffith?! Is it really Griffith's fault, that his fragile little heart broke when Guts left him...? Isn't that akin to saying that if someone stabs you, it's your fault if you bleed...? For "If you prick us, do we not bleed?"...and all that....

As for Griffith's actions following Guts' departure...Griffith was in a great deal of pain; pain that Guts had caused him. Not to make this post a sort of...compilation of famous quotes from literature ;D, but, we are all fools in love, after all....

When he returned, Guts pretty much blamed himself for what had happened to Griffith in his absence - as did Casca. And as do I. But, it seems that, to some fans, Guts is just blameless in everything.... *shrugs* Oh well.

Quote from: Gurifisu
Quote from: Anna
I know that you're entitled to your opinion, but...that's a bizarre choice. I don't think that that was a particularly "happy" moment - for Griffith or Casca. Casca was extremely distressed, in that scene - and Griffith was clearly putting on a front, for her sake. I mean, you don't go from self-harming one minute, to total happiness the next. Not even if you're Griffith.

What is happiness?  In that moment Griffiths burden was lightened... you see the side of him that he lost during the eclispe.  It made me happy that Griffith, for one singular moment was brought down from the sky, it showed how others cared for Griffith, and how Griffith (I think) liked that moment of human empathy.  I don't know, this is all in your opinion mostly... but to me that was a happy moment.


Awww.... I kinda agree with you. That scene sorta makes me happy, too. I just don't think that it was a very happy moment for the characters.

Actually, your post got me thinking.... The relationship between Griffith and Casca is typically overlooked, in favour of Guts/Griffith and Guts/Casca, and it could be said to be less complicated and important than the two aforementioned relationships.... But I've always found their relationship to be extremely multi-dimensional and fascinating. I mean, many people say that Griffith saw Casca as nothing more than a "useful tool". But I don't think that that interpretation is in line with many of the events in the story....

I mean, when Griffith first met Casca, she must've appeared the furthest thing from "useful". She was a skinny, frightened little girl - with no battle experience. The other Hawks sneered at her. And yet, Griffith saw something in her. I believe he liked her plucky spirit. He must've known that, without his intervention, Casca would've been lost to either poverty or slavery (whichever caught up with her first) - and no-one would care. She had no prospects, at that time. She was extremely disadvantaged in life - being both female (the lesser sex, in those days), and from a poor working-class background. Taking her on was a huge risk (albeit, one that ultimately paid off). But, Griffith took pity on her. Here, he had the chance to help a disadvantaged person make something of their life; to transcend the limitations that their gender and class had placed upon them. I believe that this is one of the things that drove Griffith: a desire for the empowerment and advancement of the poor and working class; of people from a similar background to himself. I'm not trying to make Griffith out to be some sort of...social revolutionary, or anything - but I do believe that the above is the main reason why he decided to give Casca a chance.

Given this, Griffith must've felt extremely proud of the grown-up Casca, and of her achievements. After all, he had fostered her growth - from a weak girl into a strong woman. In a sense, Griffith created Casca - both the old and the new Casca. But, I don't think his feelings for her were limited to pride and possessiveness.... I believe that Griffith drew a lot of strength and comfort from his relationship with Casca - particularly it's physical aspect. He was able to confide in her, and go to her for solace (something he rarely did...but the option was always there). And I think that he enjoyed being held by her. That's what I think the reason for him lunging at her in the wagon was: he missed that aspect of their relationship, and wanted to renew physical contact with her (and to get her to stay with him, of course).

Phew. Well...that was pretty long-winded.... But at least some of it had to do with happiness in Berserk....

[/size]
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 01:23:16 PM by Anna »

Offline Trashcan

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2006, 04:36:20 AM »
After the battle with Zodd and before the assassination of Julius. Guts feels a little more comfortable being in the Hawks after Griffith explains that he doesn't need a reason to stick his neck out for him. Of course, not everyone is happy right then-but there doesn't seem to be a time when "everybody" is happy in Berserk. Not everyone can be a winner, I guess.

As for the off-topic question of Griff's military genius: he does show a knowledge of tactics outside of the limit of most commoners early in the story. Remember, education was a privelege of the aristocracy. That Griffith, who came from humble beginnings, should be a better general would seem unfathomable to the nobles; he'd had no chance for the formal training they'd received. That sort of battle-borne ingenuity is quite rare. He understood how the enemy fortified its positions and took advantage of it. Of course, without events falling perfectly into place it could have been a disaster. Lucky thing Idea was on his side, no?
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Offline Oburi

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2006, 12:51:31 PM »
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So...who would you blame? Griffith?! Is it really Griffith's fault, that his fragile little heart broke when Guts left him...? Isn't that akin to saying that if someone stabs you, it's your fault if you bleed.

I think I already explained all of that. But as I  said sometimes I think Guts really fucked things up for Griffith, but other times Griffith seems like the one to blame. You came play that game and blame everybody if you want. But like Trashcan said
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Lucky thing Idea was on his side, no?
So yea if I have to blame somebody I guess it would be Idea since he "pulls the strings"

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But, it seems that, to some fans, Guts is just blameless in everything.... *shrugs* Oh well.

...No definitely not. I already said you can blame guts for everything thats happened...I just don't. I'm the last person to take part in some Guts fanboyerism and say he's never done anything wrong.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 09:02:18 PM by Oberi »

Offline Oddangelck

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2007, 03:10:47 AM »
Given this, Griffith must've felt extremely proud of the grown-up Casca, and of her achievements. After all, he had fostered her growth - from a weak girl into a strong woman. In a sense, Griffith created Casca - both the old and the new Casca. But, I don't think his feelings for her were limited to pride and possessiveness.... I believe that Griffith drew a lot of strength and comfort from his relationship with Casca - particularly it's physical aspect. He was able to confide in her, and go to her for solace (something he rarely did...but the option was always there). And I think that he enjoyed being held by her. That's what I think the reason for him lunging at her in the wagon was: he missed that aspect of their relationship, and wanted to renew physical contact with her (and to get her to stay with him, of course).

Phew. Well...that was pretty long-winded.... But at least some of it had to do with happiness in Berserk...

Thank you very much for this post. I honestly see the same thing in the Casca and Griffith relationship. I think he did grow to love her in his own way. But I think he felt that being with Casca would be one of the things away from his dream. I mean, look at the dream sequence he had before the eclipse occurred.  He dreamed of having a quiet life with Casca, their dog, and children-but the pull of his dream was too strong- he wanted more.

ANYWAY!
 I think the happiness moment in Berserk was when Casca and Guts finally make love- beautiful. And the declaration he makes afterwards. It was so intense, so raw. That's one of the reasons I continue to root for this couple even though seeing them in couple form has been denied to me for so long-lol.

-OCK

Offline Lara Skadi

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2009, 02:28:14 AM »
OK, it's been a loong time since last post on this topic... I don't know if I'm doing something wrong by replying it :???: If so, I'm sorry >.<

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Thank you very much for this post. I honestly see the same thing in the Casca and Griffith relationship. I think he did grow to love her in his own way. But I think he felt that being with Casca would be one of the things away from his dream. I mean, look at the dream sequence he had before the eclipse occurred.  He dreamed of having a quiet life with Casca, their dog, and children-but the pull of his dream was too strong- he wanted more.

Honestly, I agree with almost everything Anna said, but I don't think it goes that way, Oddangelck. Sure his relationship with Casca wasn't based only by possessiveness and all, but it seemed to me that that dream he had was a signal of tiredness. What would be easier (in practical ways) and simpler -and also less hurtfull- to do, like accepting Casca's love and devotion, living like everyone else, giving up from fighting and from Guts. Of course, even if he someday felt some sexual/emotional interest on her, he couldn't allow himself to go on with this feeling or relationship.

About the blame thing... (First, let's not consider IOE here) Gut sure is to blame for putting the engines on the moves; he was responsible for Griffith miserability and downfall. Also, Guts himself was one to agree to his ways of achieving his goals and encourage him to do so (when he asks Guts if he finds him a terrible person). But that doesn't change the fact that Griffith had the choice in the end, and was a bastard at choosing to kill them all (and "punish" his friend for being... a friend :s).

As for the topic...
The happiest moments are all in The Golden Age arc - like Guts opening up to Casca in the bonfire of dreams episode; them truly "giving themselves" (sorry for bad wording) to each other after Guts' Gambino crisis; the water fight; etc etc - but one moment that got me was when Guts casually calls them his family. He may have said that because it was easier or whatever, but it truly felt like the group was a troublesome, but nice family of friends. :) (I'm not the only one, Schierke felt that too  :schierke:)

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2009, 04:19:10 AM »
This is a great thread. =)

I don't know if it's the happiest, but I like the scene just after Guts' first battle with the band of the hawk where everyone is celebrating and Judo and Pippin forcefully make Guts join in. Then everybody is congratulating him and laughing and drinking by the campfires. Guts for the first time is being accepted. That was always the warmest scene for me, even the morning after that party when Judo talks to Guts on the castle wall, he's like his first real friend in this group, except for maybe Griffith.

This!! Absolutely.

Also after Guts and Casca's talk about the bonfire of dreams, when Griffith returns and pushes Casca toward Griffith and goes off to drink.

Oh oh, and just about any time Gaston runs up to Guts like a dog when his master comes home just brings a smile to my face. <3

Offline Okin

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Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2009, 01:38:28 PM »
I'd easily go with right before Guts left the Hawks for the first time.
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Offline ori

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2009, 09:55:16 PM »
I'm going to say (theoretically) once they arrive at Elfhelm is when they can be at peace and not have to worry much about apostles. At least for a little while they can be sort of happy.
"Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power. Through power I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken...."

Offline Lara Skadi

Re: Happiest moment in Berserk
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2009, 02:53:09 AM »
well, elfhelm is a perfect place for being happy and in peace, but Casca's sanity might come back with lots of trouble and bad memories... But I guess Guts will be happy for having her back anyway  :guts:

Oh oh, and just about any time Gaston runs up to Guts like a dog when his master comes home just brings a smile to my face. <3

haha, have forgotten that one :D
When they are going to rescue Griffith, it's very tense, but Guts and Casca all intimate (joking, etc.) is somewhat happy. Guts is really lovely on that one