Author Topic: Episode 271  (Read 46227 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #100 on: March 26, 2006, 05:44:32 AM »
I'm interested in Schierke's comment about his ability to create the cyclone in such little time, and with such a brief incantation.á It reminded me of the difference between Wizards and Sorcerors in D&D (a Wizard learns magic through studies/books, while the Sorceror's magic is innate).á But perhaps that's just a superficial assertion... I have a feeling the nature of Daiba's magic differs in many other ways.

Shades of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Perhaps Miura drew inspiration from the Atharva veda for the schema underlying Diaba's magical power.

Here are some quotes(reminiscent of the battle of Vritannis?):

VIII, 8. Battle-charm.
3. Tear asunder those (enemies), O asvattha (ficus religiosa), devour (khÔda) them, O! khadira (acacia catechu) in lively style! Like the tÔgadbhanga (ricinus communis) they shall be broken (bhagyantÔm), may the vadhaka (a certain kind of tree) slay them with his weapons (vadhaih)!
15. The Gandharvas and Apsaras, the serpents and the gods, holy men and (deceased) Fathers, the visible and invisible (beings), do I impel, that they shall slay yonder army!

XI, 9. Prayer to Arbudi and Nyarbudi for help in battle.
16. (And also make them see) her that strides upon the mist, the mutilated one, who dwells with the mutilated; the vapoury spooks that are hidden, and the Gandharvas and Apsaras, the serpents, and other brood, and the Rakshas!
17. (And also) the spooks with fourfold teeth, black teeth, bloody faces, who are inherently frightful, and terrifying!


It goes on with human sacrifice, yadda yadda...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atharva_Veda


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Offline Smith

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #101 on: March 26, 2006, 07:48:12 AM »
Another awesome topic... Thanks Aaz... I really love you  :SK:
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #102 on: March 26, 2006, 10:50:56 AM »
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy.

Yeah, I don't think he'll be there to see volume 32. :void:

So assuming Daiba and Schierke are at the same experience level

I wouldn't say they've got the same experience (and I'll ignore the possibility that you were referring to "RPG experience"), Daiba's much older than her and has probably seen a lot more things/battles as well as used magic for longer in general. However like I said in the past, I think he loses because he's somehow uneducated in comparison. Like Wally said I don't think he uses elemental spirits at all (or even know of their existence?), that would also explain why he can cast so fast, that and the fact he's got experience.

My guess is that he primarily relies on Ganishka's power and uses sorcery more akin to the darkness that shrouded him in episode 270 than to Schierke's elemental magic. Using that energy to interact with the astral world he could get that kind of amplified result (whirlpools) in the material world. The real question to me is whether he only draws power from Ganishka or has some abilities of his own too.


Bring it.

Kick ass. :SK:

Perhaps Miura drew inspiration from the Atharva veda for the schema underlying Diaba's magical power.

He used quite a bit of elements from Indian mythology to design the Kushans but I don't think it goes as far as directly interpreting sacred Hindu texts (especially since he uses Buddhist as well as Hinduist references in the manga). These are too vague to relate to Daiba past the "evil monsters and scary sorcery" factor IMHO.

darkbane

  • Guest
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2006, 02:22:21 PM »
I wouldn't say they've got the same experience (and I'll ignore the possibility that you were referring to "RPG experience"), ...
...The real question to me is whether he only draws power from Ganishka or has some abilities of his own too.
Oops. As a matter of fact, I was referring to rpg experience, just to prolong the analogy.  :serpico:

Otherwise, of course, there's the age difference. Plus, Schierke is still somewhat of an apprentice, while Daiba is a magician and apparently a general in Ganishka's army - the assumption being that half-baked apprentices don't get to lead armies.

We have some other indicators for apostle-powered magic, I guess. Apart from all the fog, there's also Ganishka and his powers, the girl who thought herself an elf, and the egg at the mock eclipse (leading to the goat and the priest). This might be obvious (and might have been stated before, though I've seen nothing about it in this thread iirc), but I guess Daiba was infused with Ganishka's power roughly the same way the priest and the goat was. The fog rising from the dead casters at the shore is also an indication for that.

I have no concrete ideas on the other question, whether Daiba has some innate abilities... assuming Ganishka's been around for a while (this may not be the case), he may have raised children infused with his spirit to be sorcerers. Then the distinction becomes blurry. At the very least, for Schierke's magic, there seems to be no limitation (aka required spark), since her elemental magic can be taught. If Daiba was a "corrupted" sorcerer, then chances are he would have recognized Schierke's elemental magic, but he plainly said that it's different from theirs. Given the production methods of the "demon army", it seems more likely that all of their magic is derived from Ganishka or at least from apostles.

Sorry for the ramble; maybe some of that made some sense. I hope. -_-;;;
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:31:21 PM by darkbane »

Offline CnC

  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 5076
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Ad Oculos
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #104 on: March 26, 2006, 04:02:56 PM »
I have no concrete ideas on the other question, whether Daiba has some innate abilities... assuming Ganishka's been around for a while (this may not be the case), he may have raised children infused with his spirit to be sorcerers. Then the distinction becomes blurry. At the very least, for Schierke's magic, there seems to be no limitation (aka required spark), since her elemental magic can be taught. If Daiba was a "corrupted" sorcerer, then chances are he would have recognized Schierke's elemental magic, but he plainly said that it's different from theirs. Given the production methods of the "demon army", it seems more likely that all of their magic is derived from Ganishka or at least from apostles.

Sorry for the ramble; maybe some of that made some sense. I hope. -_-;;;

There really isn't enough info to speculate concretely as to Daiba's origins.
I'm sick of following my dreams.  I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later...
- R.I.P Mitch Hedberg
CnColors!

Offline Rickert

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2006, 05:12:37 PM »
thanx for the scans, I'm a bit late I see..heh!

Anyway: I really like this pic..(photoshopped it a bit for you people)


darkbane

  • Guest
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2006, 05:16:50 PM »
There really isn't enough info to speculate concretely as to Daiba's origins.

Yeah, I know.  :judo: But hopefully something will come to light eventually, with luck during the next few episodes -then we can debate in meaningfully. For now, just throwing some ideas out there.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2006, 05:47:37 PM »
Quote
He used quite a bit of elements from Indian mythology to design the Kushans but I don't think it goes as far as directly interpreting sacred Hindu texts (especially since he uses Buddhist as well as Hinduist references in the manga). These are too vague to relate to Daiba past the "evil monsters and scary sorcery" factor IMHO.

He's borrowed whole cloth from Qabalah, Jungian Mythology and Tarot for the western magic. It stands to reason he is also drawing from Indian magical schema for the oriental magic. One clue is that the Atharva veda was condemned for its association with human sacrifice. I don't know enough about Indian magic to comment on the underlying architecture although it seems to be just a collection of spells.

As for the Buddhist references... were they in relation to the magic of Ganisha? I have heard that in India there are people who pursue a quas-buddhist practice in order to use magic.

BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

darkbane

  • Guest
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #108 on: March 26, 2006, 06:54:20 PM »
BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?
In volume 27, after being woken up by Schierke but before the mask retreats, you can see it a couple of times. You can kind of see it in volume 28 shortly after he gave in, but it's more of a spiritual image. Generally speaking we can never see Guts eye when he's given in to the beast (3 times so far, if I count right).

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #109 on: March 26, 2006, 08:16:07 PM »
In volume 27, after being woken up by Schierke but before the mask retreats, you can see it a couple of times. You can kind of see it in volume 28 shortly after he gave in, but it's more of a spiritual image. Generally speaking we can never see Guts eye when he's given in to the beast (3 times so far, if I count right).

The other question is... was Guts' eye clear or was it pupil-less and swirly?


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

darkbane

  • Guest
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2006, 08:27:36 PM »
The other question is... was Guts' eye clear or was it pupil-less and swirly?
Well, it was clear in vol 27. Full of intent or purpose, actually, since he was going to save Casca. But, Guts was already "conscious", so I don't think that counts for much. It is swirly in vol 28. You can't actually see it in the armor, but there's a separate image of the eye with the shadow of the armor on it.

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2006, 05:59:12 PM »
As a matter of fact, I was referring to rpg experience, just to prolong the analogy.  :serpico:

I thought that was it, but to be honest I don't think it needed any prolongation.

Plus, Schierke is still somewhat of an apprentice, while Daiba is a magician and apparently a general in Ganishka's army

She's a young witch but I wouldn't call her an apprentice anymore, she's still learning but she's on her own now, even having an apprentice herself. :badbone:

We have some other indicators for apostle-powered magic, I guess. Apart from all the fog, there's also Ganishka and his powers, the girl who thought herself an elf, and the egg at the mock eclipse (leading to the goat and the priest).

I think you're taking some shortcuts a bit too fast here. First, I don't see how Ganishka and his powers differ from the fog, the fog itself being part of his powers for all we know. Second, you mention Rochine and the Beherit-apostle as if they used "magic" like Ganishka does. I don't think that's the case. These two (and others like the Snail Count) made people into pseudo-apostles using supernatural means, but I don't think it's exactly the same as what Ganishka's doing with his casters. Actually I would already differentiate the Beherit-apostle from the others as he was a very special case, but that's another debate. To put it simply, I think apostle-based powers should be isolated from the rest of what we've been calling magic up to now, because they're quite dissimilar in essence.

The point here is that Ganishka doesn't transfer "apostle-ish" powers to his men, but rather the ability for them to use some of his magic and control the monsters he creates. There's a fundamental difference in that regard between what the Count did to Zondark or what Rochine did to her "children" and Daiba's relation to Ganishka (the Beherit-apostle's case is even more different). The most obvious element would be that Daiba seems to still be human, like the other casters we've seen so far. That also ties to the fact that I don't believe Ganishka's sorcery to be a direct result of his apostlehood. Not only are there several physical/material elements hinting at it, but his attitude and speech to other apostles makes it clear that he despises them for having "only" been infused with a bit of evil and trying to act big. That makes him look to me as a self-made man, for whom becoming an apostle was just a step among others on his ascension to power. This perfectly fits his psychology and would explain his rebellion against Griffith too.

This might be obvious (and might have been stated before, though I've seen nothing about it in this thread iirc), but I guess Daiba was infused with Ganishka's power roughly the same way the priest and the goat was. The fog rising from the dead casters at the shore is also an indication for that.

Well now that's a bit harder. Like I said I don't believe the fog to be a simple manifestation of Ganishka's "apostle powers", rather I think it relates to his magic. Mozgus and the goat didn't need any intervention from the Beherit-apostle once they were "infected", and when they died nothing showed they were transformed by him, that can't be related to the Kushan casters always keeping in touch with the fog (and through it, to Ganishka). That being said, I see two possibilities here: either Ganishka confers power to his subordinates exclusively using sorcery, or he does it in a mix of sorcery and apostle-related abilities. For example he could use his ability as an apostle to bestow powers upon others to allow them to use his magic. I like the latter hypothesis more and I think we'll eventually get to witness him combining these 2 notions again (first time was for the creation of the Daka) sooner or later anyway.

In conclusion I'd reiterate that there's more to Ganishka than what we first thought when he was introduced, he's not just an apostle commanding armies but a complex and resourceful character, and I don't think we've seen all of what he has in stock yet.

He's borrowed whole cloth from Qabalah, Jungian Mythology and Tarot for the western magic.

I wouldn't say that. References to the Kabbalah/Tarot are sparse and superficial in the manga, they're completely out of context and hardly have any meaning in regard to the original. When Schierke summoned the 4 elemental kings she used among other things a small part of an incantation from Kabbalah/Golden Dawn ("Ateh Malkuth Ve Geburah Ve Gedulah Le Olam"; meaning "Thou art the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory for ever"), and then there's a place called the Qliphoth and Slan alludes to the other God Hand members floating while immaterial in their "favorite Sephirah". These elements in Berserk are quasi-unrelated to the originals: the Qliphoth in Berserk is just a place populated with Chimim˘ry˘, creatures from traditional Japanese folklore, where Slan dwells and that she calls her womb. The fact it's supposed to be composed of Qliphah or anything else is disregarded. It's the same with Schierke's incantation, not only is it very partially reproduced and made just a portion of her incantation (the rest being unrelated), but she's not really following the Torah's commandments either nor applying the procedure to ward off demons (the Kabbalistic purpose of that "spell", she's supposed to use a steel dagger, call old Judaic names and all that).

Furthermore, the concept of divine beings associated with cardinal points is a very old and fundamental notion in Asia, going back to early China, and the four elemental kings themselves have been associated with Buddhist principles in Berserk (regarding the elements composing the world, etc). The elemental part itself can also relate to old Celtic/Nordic legends and diverse occult beliefs (like say, Enochian rituals) but doesn't really connect in Berserk to what the incantation is originally about in Kabbalah past the generic nature of the "evil-banishing" spell. It should also be noted that Schierke and Flora's magic makes references to other various folklores, alchemy and occult works (even a small one from "The Key of Solomon"), mostly European stuff but with notable exceptions. There's the case of Undine for example (German mythology), but also the recent Wheel of Fire which is clearly a reference to Buddhism. But what's important is that they're all lightly and freely used, much like what Miura does with historical references (i.e. Tudor, Gaiseric), and while they add a nice touch of detail to the whole thing, they're not heavy inspirations, nor are they reproduced verbatim. The same would go for Rakshas who's not represented very faithfully to traditional portrayals, or other elements of the story with more diffuse possible sources of inspiration.

I don't think it's correct to sum it up like you did (sounds like you're minimizing what Miura does by implying he merely copies/pastes stuff from existing sources), and I've yet to see Miura borrowing heavily enough from a unique source and staying truthful to its actual context for your assertion to be valid. Like I said, the references are often (always?) rather superficial, much like Daiba talking about Guts in Indian terms (Kṣhatriya of Durga) in this episode, or the words he utters while casting his spells. As for Jungian mythology, I'd take it as a joke if it wasn't from you. I'm actually curious to know what you exactly mean, mythological archetypes present in the collective unconscious? If so, and knowing that Jung based this on existing mythologies, concepts, legends, it'd be quite audacious (or is it pretentious?) to affirm boldly that Miura borrowed from it instead of all the widely known sources that Jung himself based his work on... Especially since that seems to strictly be an assumption to me. And I'd like to know in what they specifically relate to each other past these generic and broad archetypes, which by definition are supposed to apply to "everybody" (and are unconscious reflections of the author's mind). As long as someone's writing an epic story, it should be more or less encompassed in it... But that isn't really the topic here, I guess I just got carried away. Better stop now before people quit reading the thread altogether. In the end I think we can all agree that Miura's been using a lot of diverse references in Berserk, and the talent with which he modifies, adapts them to his story and blend them together is part of what makes it so interesting.

It stands to reason he is also drawing from Indian magical schema for the oriental magic. One clue is that the Atharva veda was condemned for its association with human sacrifice. I don't know enough about Indian magic to comment on the underlying architecture although it seems to be just a collection of spells.

Well like I said in my previous post, while he's obviously making references to Indian mythology and using some of its elements, I just don't think the parts of the Atharvaveda you quoted relate to Daiba's current display of sorcery much except for the broad Hindu connotation. Atharvaveda means "the Veda of the Wise and the Old", and it's composed of 731 hymns: incantations, songs, poems, charms, prayers. It's primarily about curative stuff, how to cure diseases, fevers, jaundice, etc, using herbs or amulets (and sometimes how to ward off the demons that cause them), but there are also some parts about the appreciation of natural beauty, yoga, social and political structures (like how to protect your husband from other women...), human physiology or atonement for sins. The battle charms are apparently minor.

Anyway, all this stuff doesn't seem to correspond to Daiba's kind of spellcasting (i.e. pronouncing a single word, remakable enough for Schierke to comment on it). I don't know about human sacrifices, but those that people referred to in Berserk were shown: women being fed to Pishacha and used to give birth to the Daka. Nothing currently hints at other human sacrifices being used for anything (like powering Daiba's magic), even though that remains a possibility. But then again, human sacrifices existed in more than one ancient cult, so I don't think using that as a clue will lead you anywhere (although it could be interesting to look at black/forbidden magic in general). Which brings me to the point that as long as Daiba doesn't tell the group that he's using 3 sacred Sankara stones to get his magic or tries to remove Guts' heart from his chest with his bare hands, I'd rather not see it compared to Indiana Jones...

As for the Buddhist references... were they in relation to the magic of Ganisha?

They're in relation to everything in Berserk: Karma, Inga (causality), various magical concepts (e.g. Schierke paralysing people, Farnese wanting to be taught about "the nature of the world", the way Flora calls the God Hand, the Wheel of Fire elemental), Farnese' talk of retribution when she protects Casca... It's really all over it (so much for the "western" magic, eh?), even in the etymology of the words used. In the present case, Daiba's name itself could very well be a derivative of a famous Buddhist villain's for example (I posted about it in the Episode 270 thread).

BTW, I have lost my archives. Has Guts left eye ever been visible in the armor before?

What, you don't have the manga? Or you lost your volumes? Anyway yes, it has been, and it was perfectly clear like darkbane said. In volume 28 it's shown as "unclear" because he's seeing through the armor's Od (his perception is altered), just like in episode 270.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2006, 06:56:59 PM »
I wouldn't say that. References to the Kabbalah/Tarot are sparse and superficial in the manga, they're completely out of context and hardly have any meaning in regard to the original. When Schierke summoned the 4 elemental kings she used among other things a small part of an incantation from Kabbalah/Golden Dawn ("Ateh Malkuth Ve Geburah Ve Gedulah Le Olam"; meaning "Thou art the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory for ever"), and then there's a place called the Qliphoth and Slan alludes to the other God Hand members floating while immaterial in their "favorite Sephirah". These elements in Berserk are quasi-unrelated to the originals: the Qliphoth in Berserk is just a place populated with Chimim˘ry˘, creatures from traditional Japanese folklore, where Slan dwells and that she calls her womb.

The Qliphoth are the shadow Sephirah.

Quote
Furthermore, the concept of divine beings associated with cardinal points is a very old and fundamental notion in Asia, going back to early China, and the four elemental kings themselves have been associated with Buddhist principles in Berserk (regarding the elements composing the world, etc).

Cardinal points. Directions. Not elements.

As for the rest of it. Sorry, I don't have time to respond. Nor the inclination to go through all my magical references so I'll conceed the point to you (whatever point it was.)

Final points.

The Indiana Jones reference was a joke.

If Muria did not intend to use the underlying significance of the western mysticism he alludes to, why would he name it so specifically? I'm afriad if he's going to go so far as to use specific names I'd loose more respect for him if he's bandying them about to sound all "occidental and obscure" then using some deep and well thought out reasoning for their use (thus tieing them tightly to his plot.)

Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...

(I'm waiting till the later volumes are translated and brought to North America to purchase them. I have the earlier volumes. I have been archiving the scans you make available on this site since 2002(minus a few months when life got too hectic), but I've suffered several crashes since then.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 07:00:39 PM by QUeeN typhonblue »


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Online Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15907
  • Karma: 479
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2006, 07:13:03 PM »
Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...
Personally, I just don't think you can learn very much by applying generic archetypes to a series in so specific a manner.  To me, applying archetypes like "hero" to Guts is about as accurate as summarizing World War II as "a series of disputes among major countries."  Sure, both are true statements but... not exactly insightful.  Furthermore, they're too broad to use as a credible source to speculate future scenarios.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2006, 07:33:14 PM »
Personally, I just don't think you can learn very much by applying generic archetypes to a series in so specific a manner.á To me, applying archetypes like "hero" to Guts is about as accurate as summarizing World War II as "a series of disputes among major countries."á Sure, both are true statements but... not exactly insightful.á Furthermore, they're too broad to use as a credible source to speculate future scenarios.

The speculation I presented at the time was that Guts was following the Innocent-Orphan-Wanderer-Warrior/Wizard/Altruist-Transcendant cycle of heroic development.

Each catagory on that cycle has its own motivations and qualities as well as poses a particular challenge to move on to the next stage.

To summarize what I said... Guts has been oscillating between Wanderer(fighting for fighting's sake) and Warrior(fighting for others.) Each time he becomes a warrior he faces a situation where the people he's fighting for reject him (That's the challenge to move past being a warrior). He then fails the challenge and goes back to being a wanderer.

In the story arch, he's a warrior again, fighting for his posse, but in the future he will be facing a profound rejection by one of them.(According to the cycle.) That will be the challenge he faces. Will he
go back to being a wanderer or move on from being a warrior to the next stage of his development?

I figured it will be Casca who rejects him after she's healed.


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2006, 07:44:21 PM »
The Qliphoth are the shadow Sephirah.

Well, not really. The Qliphoth are said to be the opposite of the Sephiroth in some interpretations, but they're not "shadow Sephiroth", merely the representation of evil/darkness. They could be viewed as anti-Sephiroth at best. I've never seen them referred to as "shadow Sephiroth" before, but I'm not a Kabbalah expert so I won't just affirm that this interpretation doesn't exist. However there's still the problem of the Qliphoth in Berserk being a single place in the astral world, and Slan mentioning the Sephiroth being associated with evil creatures (pretty much the opposite of what the Sephiroth are about, bringing light and all).

Cardinal points. Directions. Not elements.

No, they also relate to elements, that's what I meant by "the elements composing the world". And the Elemental Kings relate each to a cardinal point.

As for the rest of it. Sorry, I don't have time to respond.

Not a problem, don't worry. I think it's as well as such.

The Indiana Jones reference was a joke.

I see, sounded serious to me, plus it was also in the first post (deleted one). My bad.

If Muria did not intend to use the underlying significance of the western mysticism he alludes to, why would he name it so specifically? I'm afriad if he's going to go so far as to use specific names I'd loose more respect for him if he's bandying them about to sound all "occidental and obscure" then using some deep and well thought out reasoning for their use (thus tieing them tightly to his plot.)

Like I said, I think they're just superficial, it's not like I have a personal interest in the matter, but the way everything is mixed, distorted and generally doesn't relate much to the original makes me pretty confident about it. It's just adapted to the Berserk universe, I know I take these more as nice references than indications set in stone on the magic in Berserk and allowing us to define the rest of it. On the other hand I don't think he's just trying to "make it sound all occidental or obscure" either, more like slapping names on stuff in Berserk resembling concepts/things from our world, or adapted from these same elements. It doesn't have to be just all black or all white.

Finally, if you believe Jung is a joke, yet the elements underlying his system are valid, why the problem with applying them to Berserk? Jung may not have invented the mythological threads, but he codified them...

I didn't say Jung was a joke, just that I would have taken the idea of "Jungian mythology" being an inspiration source for Miura (instead of just applying to it like it's supposed to apply to everything else) as a joke if it hadn't been from you. Jung "just" associated a lot of things together (from mythology to existing religions to schools of thought to scientific theories like Darwin's) to define his archetypes, present in all cultures and all over the world (through the collective unconscious). He wasn't the first to attempt that but his analytical psychology and the depth of his researchs (like studying flying saucers...) popularized the concept. I'm not saying he was a hack... Just that I doubt his works to be an inspiration source for Berserk over the traditional myths it's itself built on.

The speculation I presented at the time was that Guts was following the Innocent-Orphan-Wanderer-Warrior/Wizard/Altruist-Transcendant cycle of heroic development.

Didn't you somehow adapt that to Berserk though? I'd like to know the exact source for these precise cycles, just out of curiosity. From what I read of the "Hero with a Thousand Faces", the summary of the typical story is different and more specific:

Quote
The hero is introduced in his ordinary world, where he receives the call to adventure. He is reluctant at first but is encouraged by the wise old man or woman to cross the first threshold, where he encounters tests and helpers. He reaches the innermost cave, where he endures the supreme ordeal. He seizes the sword or the treasure and is pursued on the road back to his world. He is resurrected and transformed by his experience. He returns to his ordinary world with a treasure, boon, or elixir to benefit his world.

That may be more at its place in your old thread though.

I figured it will be Casca who rejects him after she's healed.

Yeah, you've figured that just like everybody else did 6 years ago.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2006, 08:02:08 PM »
Well, not really. The Qliphoth are said to be the opposite of the Sephiroth in some interpretations, but they're not "shadow Sephiroth", merely the representation of evil/darkness. They could be viewed as anti-Sephiroth at best. I've never seen them referred to as "shadow Sephiroth" before, but I'm not a Kabbalah expert so I won't just affirm that this interpretation doesn't exist. However there's still the problem of the Qliphoth in Berserk being a single place in the astral world, and Slan mentioning the Sephiroth being associated with evil creatures (pretty much the opposite of what the Sephiroth are about, bringing light and all).

The Qliphoth are the excesses of the Sephiroth. For instance force becoming cruelty or mercy becoming indolence.

As for Slan hanging around her favorite Qliphoth... there is an interesting parallel in western mythology. Lilith is said to govern the Qliphoth Gamaliel which is associated with Yesod. It is ranslated as "the obscene ones". The demons associated with it (If a Sephiroth is associated with an angel then the corresponding Qliphoth is associated with a devil) are said to be loathsome, corrupting "bull-men". (Yesod, is associated with the moon and thus with female sexuality.)

Two important points about Lillith's appearance. She is said to have long hair and wings. Also she is a succubi (latin tranlation == harlot). Succubi are portrayed as having bat wings. She is said to have an insatiable sexual appetite. (I've also heard(and seen) a strong association with Lillith and serpents.) I belive she has also been interpreted as a sacred prostitute to some pagan religion (but I'm not sure on this one.)

If Miura isn't looking into the actual meaning of the Qliphoth, he's making some damn accurate guesses.

Quote
I didn't say Jung was a joke, just that I would have taken the idea of "Jungian mythology" being an inspiration source for Miura (instead of just applying to it like they're supposed to apply to everything else) as a joke if it hadn't been from you. Jung just associated a lot of things together (from mythology to existing religions to schools of thought to scientific theories like Darwin's) to define his archetypes, present in all cultures and all over the world (through the collective unconscious). He wasn't the first to attempt that but his analytical psychology and the depth of his researchs (like studying flying saucers...) popularized the concept. I'm not saying he was a hack... Just that I doubt his works to be an inspiration source for Berserk over the traditional myths it's built on.

Gotcha. I meant Jung to refer to all of the deseperate elements he codified, not something distinct to him.


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2006, 09:28:16 PM »
The Qliphoth are the excesses of the Sephiroth. For instance force becoming cruelty or mercy becoming indolence.

Well that depends of who you ask, as far as I know the only widely accepted fact is that they represent all that is evil. They're still different from the Sephiroth though, no matter how you turn it. Separate and opposite entities, while primarily linked.

As for Slan hanging around her favorite Qliphoth...

To be exact, she was in the (one and only) Qliphoth, which in itself is in contradiction with the original meaning of the word (plural form of Qliphah). And in Berserk, the Qliphoth's dark Od is what brings all these Chimim˘ry˘ and other dark creatures to it, because they're similar in essence. She said however that the other God Hand members were probably in their favorite Sephirah.

there is an interesting parallel in western mythology. Lilith is said to govern the Qliphoth Gamaliel which is associated with Yesod. It is ranslated as "the obscene ones". The demons associated with it (If a Sephiroth is associated with an angel then the corresponding Qliphoth is associated with a devil) are said to be loathsome, corrupting "bull-men". (Yesod, is associated with the moon and thus with female sexuality.)

Uhh yeah, that would only be in the Hermetic interpretation of the Kabbalah, besides that's not really western mythology (originates from Egypt I think). Also, some of what you say seems to be from Wikipedia and I don't think it's all accurate. Usually Gamaliel ("obscene ass") is associated with Yesod and Lilith ("the woman of the night") with Malkuth. I don't have the time nor the motivation to check the description of the "obscene people" supposed to live in it, but I don't think that makes much of a point anyway, it's a stretch to relate all of this to Berserk IMHO.

Two important points about Lillith's appearance. She is said to have long hair and wings. Also she is a succubi (latin tranlation == harlot).

If you want to talk about Latin, the single form is succubus (the original Latin word is succuba). And she's only described as such in modern occultism. Anyway her origins are Assyro-Babylonian and she was really just seen as a harvest goddess back then, later as the goddess of the dark moon (Greek myth), or a simple night demon even later. There are so many different representations, definitions and beliefs concerning her that insisting on one won't prove much. In Kabbalah she's originally simply described as the first wife of Adam... She was indeed given wings and "became evil" but the relation stops pretty much stops here.

Succubi are portrayed as having bat wings. She is said to have an insatiable sexual appetite. (I've also heard(and seen) a strong association with Lillith and serpents.)

Yeah (and I confirm the snakes thing), but that's nothing new. All it means is that Slan's design was based on the succubus archetype (;)) (though her hair isn't that long and is more likely to be inspired by the slans in the eponym novel), and we've all known that for years. Also, succubi are actually said to be immaterial and able to take any shape, although only taking one when hunting their sleeping preys, appearing in their dreams or such. They're basically incorporeal female vampires.

Anyway, if you want to orient things that way, why not speak about the incubi in Berserk? You know, the funny looking one-eyed octopuses that regularly haunt Guts. Like I've been saying, the references are too diverse and their insertion in the story not rigorous enough for me to give them that much credit.

If Miura isn't looking into the actual meaning of the Qliphoth, he's making some damn accurate guesses.

Nobody's saying he made any guess, but I still don't see how that's anything more than superficial or how it could alone seriously (in depth) link the Berserk cosmology to the Kabbalah. You're entitled to your opinion in any case and I'm not trying to convince you, so I won't insist on the subject. Besides the discussion's starting to become seriously off topic.

Offline Wereallmad

  • Of the Nexus
  • ***
  • Posts: 641
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
  • I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2006, 10:08:47 PM »
I gotta side with Aaz, Typhon. That is assiming Aaz is just saying that the connections to traditional mythology (both western and eastern) should not be looked into too deeply, because the association are only superficial or allegorical.

It's just like how, visually, miura borrows elements from traditional mythology, but they are only superficial as well. Such as Zodd being a minotaur, it's no reason to assume he originates from the island of Crete and was originally a pet of king Mynos. Infact, Zodd can only really be described as 'minotaur-like'. Wyald, in his apostle form has a distinctly 'Yeti-like' appearance, but you would not call him the sasquatch himself. Grunbeld definately resembles a Dragon, yet we know that he does not lie in a cave hoarding precious jewels and virgins, nor is he The Dragon of Hewbrew origins.

Remember, that Berserk does not take place in any real country or time period (though it draws inspiration from many REAL time periods and locations. Some that could not have exsisted at the same time.). Therefore, one should not have faith that any allusions to established philosophical and mystical elements are anything more than just that (allusions).

The practice can be compared to Final fantasy's tradition of naming compltetely unrelated cities and monsters after those found in various mythologies. For instance, the recurring characer Bahamut is a fish, in Arabic mythology, not a dragon (though, to be fair, Final Fantasy borrowed the dragon-king version of Bahamut from dungeons and dragons).

Personally, I think a lot of people read waaaaay too much into the story of Berserk. Perhaps I'm being too fair here, and in reality this discusssion is really just dissent for the sake of dissenting (read: trolling).

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2006, 10:13:44 PM »
That is assiming Aaz is just saying that the connections to traditional mythology (both western and eastern) should not be looked into too deeply, because the association are only superficial or allegorical.

That's pretty much it, yeah. And while I didn't mention the visual influences (for Zodd, Wyald, etc.) in this thread, I of course agree with that.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #120 on: March 27, 2006, 10:36:40 PM »
Well that depends of who you ask, as far as I know the only widely accepted fact is that they represent all that is evil. They're still different from the Sephiroth though, no matter how you turn it. Separate and opposite entities, while primarily linked.

Dion Fortune refers to them as the "evil and averse Sephiroth, for they are not indepenent principles or factors in the cosmic scheme, but the unbalanced and destructive aspect of the Holy Stations themselves."

In other words a Qilphath is a Sephiroth taken to an unbalanced extreme. I've read other interpretations that say the same thing.

Quote
To be exact, she was in the (one and only) Qliphoth, which in itself is in contradiction with the original meaning of the word (plural form of Qliphah). And in Berserk, the Qliphoth's dark Od is what brings all these Chimim˘ry˘ and other dark creatures to it, because they're similar in essence. She said however that the other God Hand members were probably in their favorite Sephirah.

I wonder if the God Hands have a balanced aspect, the aspects appearing to Guts being only one. If a Qliproth is a Sephiroth "run amok" or badly aspected or what have you, then Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

But regardless, I think I'll wait till the translation comes out in North America before I comment on 1 vs. 10 Qliphoth.

Quote
Uhh yeah, that would only be in the Hermetic interpretation of the Kabbalah, besides that's not really western mythology (originates from Egypt I think).

Well, if you get technical, then we could only talk about the original mythology of the Celts, Dorians, etc. But I figure if we consider Kabalah western... then we don't have to be so exclusive.

Quote
Also, some of what you say seems to be from Wikipedia and I don't think it's all accurate. Usually Gamaliel ("obscene ass") is associated with Yesod and Lilith ("the woman of the night") with Malkuth.

I have seen Lillith(the Qliphath) and Gamaliel closely associated with eachother. I'm guessing from what I've read that Lilith rules over Gamaliel but actually *is* Malkuth's Qliphath aspect.

Quote
There are so many different representations, definitions and beliefs concerning her that insisting on one won't prove much.

I'm interested in the version of Lilith that is associated with the Qliphoth.

Quote
In Kabbalah she's originally simply described as the first wife of Adam... She was indeed given wings and "became evil" but the relation stops pretty much stops here.

Except that she also is associated with the Qliphoth, succubi and whores.

Quote
Nobody's saying he made any guess, but I still don't see how that's anything more than superficial or how it could alone seriously (in depth) link the Berserk cosmology to the Kabbalah. You're entitled to your opinion in any case and I'm not trying to convince you, so I won't insist on the subject. Besides the discussion's starting to become seriously off topic.

Theories are only useful in their predictive value.

So I suppose a prediction would be that more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.

And that Casca will reject Guts at some point.

And now that I have that in writing... no point continuing.  :casca:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 10:52:37 PM by QUeeN typhonblue »


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Offline CnC

  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 5076
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Ad Oculos
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #121 on: March 27, 2006, 10:52:58 PM »
typhon you're still basing all the presumptions on the idea that Miura is completely following existing mythos.  Whats more likely is that he's borrowing certain aspects of various mythology to weave into his own story.
I'm sick of following my dreams.  I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later...
- R.I.P Mitch Hedberg
CnColors!

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

  • SKuLL LoRD Supreme Ho
  • Of the Interstice
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Female
  • Feminism--making the world safe for bigotry
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2006, 10:55:50 PM »
typhon you're still basing all the presumptions on the idea that Miura is completely following existing mythos.á Whats more likely is that he's borrowing certain aspects of various mythology to weave into his own story.

Yep.

And if I'm wrong you can hoist me on my petard when we're all old and grey and Miura's protege is wrapping Berserk up for him.

Not trying to be a smart-ass, just my way of saying there's no point in further discussion till Miura either gives us more to go on or doesn't.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 11:06:49 PM by QUeeN typhonblue »


Blink, and you almost miss the yaoi in Berserk!

Who Watches that Yaoi Stuff Anyway?

Offline Aazealh

  • 髑髏の騎士
  • Administrator
  • Of Terror
  • *****
  • Posts: 18434
  • Karma: 636
  • Gender: Male
  • そうはいかぬ
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2006, 11:19:06 PM »
Dion Fortune refers to them as the "evil and averse Sephiroth, for they are not indepenent principles or factors in the cosmic scheme, but the unbalanced and destructive aspect of the Holy Stations themselves."

Well, I don't really consider her to be a more eminent source than older texts. It still stands that the Sephiroth and the Qliphoth are distinct entities. Like twins, one good and one evil. But whatever.

I wonder if the God Hands have a balanced aspect, the aspects appearing to Guts being only one. If a Qliproth is a Sephiroth "run amok" or badly aspected or what have you, then Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

I don't think so, no. Actually, that seems extremely unlikely. It just doesn't correspond to the way it's described in the manga.

Well, if you get technical, then we could only talk about the original mythology of the Celts, Dorians, etc. But I figure if we consider Kabalah western...

I never said I considered the Kabbalah to be western. =) That's just a point of detail though.

I'm interested in the version of Lilith that is associated with the Qliphoth.

Yeah, the marginal, anedoctic version. That's pretty convenient, but if that's how you want it... Fine.

Except that she also is associated with the Qliphoth, succubi and whores.

In older texts (stuff in the Talmud and such) she's barely mentioned and just associated to the popular succubus imagery (more a rapist than a prostitute, really), not with the Qliphoth. These notions came later.

So I suppose a prediction would be that more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.

Yeah, right. I think you should read that part of the manga before speculating about it.

Not trying to be a smart-ass, just my way of saying there's no point in further discussion till Miura either gives us more to go on or doesn't.

Well it's settled then, let's just leave it at that. See you in 2032. :SK:

Online Walter

  • 賢者
  • Administrator
  • Of the Abyss
  • *****
  • Posts: 15907
  • Karma: 479
  • Gender: Male
  • Chapter ≠ Episode
Re: Episode 271
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2006, 11:20:13 PM »
Slan could have been in the only Qliproth because there was only one Sephiroth that has been corrupted (currently) in the Berserk universe.

But regardless, I think I'll wait till the translation comes out in North America before I comment on 1 vs. 10 Qliphoth.

...more Sephiroth will be corrupted by the Godhand, creating more Qliphoth, and we may end up seeing the balanced aspects of the Godhand somewhere down the line.
I think you've misunderstood Berserk's Qliphoth.  It was in existence before Griffith's reincarnation (thus before the God Hand could have "corrupted" it).  It's the Astral realm where Nightmare Creatures gather and are created.  It wasn't some happy forest where creatures lived in peace before the God Hand came along and crapped all over it.  The only change that's occurred over the past few years is that the barrier between the worlds is growing thinner (i.e. Trolls. Ogre and Kelpie in Enoch).

That being said, I'd buy your theory if it were less weighed down with Kabbalistic terminology. If by "corruption" and "creating more Qliphoth" you mean that the barrier between the Physical and Astral worlds will continue to become thinner, then, why not just say so?

As for a balanced God Hand... are you talking about a GOOD Hand?  :void:
:femto: :slan: :ubik: