Author Topic: Episode 271  (Read 45370 times)

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Online Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #175 on: April 08, 2006, 04:50:17 PM »
Well, why doesn't that Daiba dude use his magic for the transportation of the ship he is on, instead of having a crew to maneuver it (If he can make tornado's etc he should be able to move the ship doesn't he?
Why should he bother to use magic and potentially exhaust himself before a major battle when he can just have other people row for him?  He'd also get pretty lonely out at sea all alone except for the Makara  :judo:
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #176 on: April 08, 2006, 05:52:20 PM »
Yes! Roderick has been dead weight on the group for far too long!  It's time he started fighting Kushan sorcerers by himself, for once!

True, but I think you guys are all missing a very important and obvious element: that without a doubt, Magnifico will prove decisive in the battle against Daiba. It's about time he reveals his true power. I also expect Theresia to reappear any minute now and to defeat Guts single-handedly.

Well, why doesn't that Daiba dude use his magic for the transportation of the ship he is on, instead of having a crew to maneuver it

As Walter pointed out, I doubt he can use magic indefinitely. Also, he's some kind of admiral, do you really think he's going to waste his time and skill to propel his ship when he could just have a crew?

If he can make tornado's etc he should be able to move the ship doesn't he?

Not necessarily.

In any case this isn't certain. Same goes for the subordinate you were talking about. Maybe he already left the ship sooner or switched ships or something...

Yeah right, and to eat he fishes and cooks his food himself (or better yet: he doesn't eat, that's why he's all skinny!). And he also maintains the ship all by himself. Of course the oars and the sails are just there for decoration since it's a magic-powered boat. Tell you what: I'm not buying it. "Maybe" all the people on board stealthily disembarked because they somehow knew Daiba was going to fight against Guts and the others and they expected their vessel to be destroyed (hint: unlikely), but there was a crew to begin with. And I guess the ship was moving on its own in the harbor, the deployed oars and sails we were shown were just a cunning decoy? Sorry but I don't think so.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #177 on: April 10, 2006, 08:35:16 AM »
Quote
hey do ya think theres other guys on that boat!? Wha we already saw one!? well he coulda left! what do yous think puck smells like? feet or someing lol!? does Guts have shave with his knife why doesn't he grow beard her!? and I never see him go to the bathroom! yud think someone would come out and say "you really got to take a dump dump dude lol" and how does he shit in that armor on? just go all out lol?! what town are they in elven yet? thanks azz for chapter. this stuff it in portant!

Yup.

Offline Casan

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #178 on: April 10, 2006, 02:54:54 PM »
Thanks for the episode Aazealh! This episode was very engaging, as always. Also, great insightful discussion in this thread!

In my opinion, Daiba will perish in this oncoming clash between him and Guts's group. I really can't see what he would be able to contribute with to the story past this encounter (with the possible exception of letting some useful information about something Ganishka related slip in his death throes). Hopefully, we'll get to see the others in the group put their skills to good use in the next few episodes. Maybe even Magnifico will get his time to shine (yeah, I'm not counting on it either)?


Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #179 on: April 10, 2006, 09:09:20 PM »
In my opinion, Daiba will perish in this oncoming clash between him and Guts's group. I really can't see what he would be able to contribute with to the story past this encounter (with the possible exception of letting some useful information about something Ganishka related slip in his death throes).

Or telling Ganishka about Guts and possibly something to do do with Guts/Griffith if he shows up. Or anything Miura can think of, really. Who would have thought Silat was some important tribe leader back in volume 9, or that he'd still be a player today? Magnifico is a good recent example; would you have guessed that he'd be the gang's newest travel buddy, however long it lasts? Anyway, you're probably right about Daiba's doom, but examples from past incidents are better indicators (and probably the actual reason you hold that opinion) than one's lack of imagination.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #180 on: April 10, 2006, 11:35:52 PM »
Well here is some more food for thought. Since Daiba can sense magical essences (I suppose that's a way of putting it) and possibly seeing the magical aura's that people may have on them. What if he were to be distracted by Casca? Since she in a sense gave birth to reborn Griffith along with having the brand. I think it would be pretty funny for her to play an important roll since she is still in her vegetable state.

Also my assumptions of Daiba being able to tell that magical properties and aura's of people are on that Schierke can view them, I can only assume that Daiba with his greater, I suppose "practical usage" has made him skilled enough that he can do this. Just my assumption. :puck:
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Online Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2006, 01:44:33 AM »
Well here is some more food for thought.  ...What if he were to be distracted by Casca? Since she in a sense gave birth to reborn Griffith along with having the brand. I think it would be pretty funny for her to play an important roll since she is still in her vegetable state.
If you consider that food for thought, what the hell have YOU been eating?   :guts:

And yeah, there's no evidence thus far that Daiba can detect Od the way that Schierke has in the past. Though, his comments on the armor are certainly curious.  Anyway, what sort of aura do you expect Casca projects?  A holy mother? 
:???:
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Offline Nickoten

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2006, 01:49:20 AM »
"Kshatriya of Durga"

Loving all the Hindu references. I know it's a dead conversation now, but if it matters it doesn't seem like Miura's actively trying to follow mythos by the letter, especially since I believe I remember him saying something about choosing certain weapons/armor/etc that might seem unusual for the time period simply because they looked cool to him. Honestly, I don't think that looking at the references as mostly superficial (Though obviously he is looking at least a little deeper than just names) cheapens the effect at all. It gives us a link to our world. I think that's one effect Berserk does push quite well, in having a somewhat realistic medieval setting (Or at least more realistic than I personally am accustomed to reading of in Japanese manga) and at the same time having so many fantasy elements so as to emphasize said elements. I suppose you could sort of compare it to Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

Anyway, that's my two cents, hopefully I'm not annoying people by beating the dead horse.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2006, 02:07:53 AM »
I don't mind the rest of your post but...

I suppose you could sort of compare it to Stephen King's Dark Tower series.

I'd rather not.

Offline Nickoten

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2006, 06:30:29 PM »
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy. I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it?

Or are you still sore about the finale?
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Online Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2006, 10:34:53 PM »
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy. I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it?
I think the problem in your comparison is just by the nature of the references these guys are using.   King draws on pop culture references (Wizard of Oz, Coke-a-Cola, Clint Eastwood, Seven Samurai etc.)  while Miura draws from ancient texts. 

Furthermore, they've incorporated them for apparently different purposes, too.  I'm no Dark Tower expert, and it's certainly a really confusing timeline/world but... my take on it is that King uses his fictional story to explain the origins of non-fictional pop-culture elements (for example, The Wizard of Oz and Seven Samurai are just facets of Roland's world, and his story), while Miura is just using non-fiction historical texts as a reference point for his world.

I'm sure Aaz will have more to say on this, but this is just my personal take on what you said.   :guts:

As for Dark Tower's ending, I personally really didn't enjoy anything after Gunslinger, but for what it's worth, I didn't mind the ending at all.  I even sort of liked it.  Besides, it's King's story and he can do what he wants with it.

PS: Midworld = ... Midland?!?! XD
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Offline Nickoten

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #186 on: April 12, 2006, 12:34:57 AM »
More like Midworld = Middle Earth = Midland (?)  :P

I see where you're coming from, though. It's just that they end up having the same effect on me, personally. For example, when you look toward Roland's childhood, while it does take place in a setting that itself is a mix of different cultures/times, it's somewhat more grounded, so to speak. It makes the existance of, say, the Oracle from The Gunslinger or Roland taking about taking mescaline to talk to spirits seem that much more fanciful. I'm not saying King and Miura are incorporating fantasy in the same way, just that it had the same effect on me as a reader.

Quote
Furthermore, they've incorporated them for apparently different purposes, too.  I'm no Dark Tower expert, and it's certainly a really confusing timeline/world but... my take on it is that King uses his fictional story to explain the origins of non-fictional pop-culture elements (for example, The Wizard of Oz and Seven Samurai are just facets of Roland's world, and his story), while Miura is just using non-fiction historical texts as a reference point for his world.

While that perspective is as valid as any, I personally figured these influences were to illustrate the many different but subtly linked worlds in the Dark Tower universe (Or, as the book puts it, the different levels of the tower). Some concepts will appear in more than one world, but for one reason or the other it will be applied differently. Kind of like how Father Callahan was travelling to other worlds under that bridge and found that in some that American currency had different presidents on its bills.

In other words, I don't think it's a matter of showing origin, just how these same things pop up in different levels of the tower in different ways.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 12:40:22 AM by Nickoten »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #187 on: April 12, 2006, 01:05:18 AM »
I'm not trying to compare Berserk's setting, more of its use of recognizeable elements to bring more attention to what is fantasy.

I just don't think they're comparable in any way, shape or form. Besides the fact that they're works of fiction of course. The references in themselves have nothing in common, the way they're used in both stories are completely different, and both works are pretty much unrelated. If by recognizable elements you mean human people and stuff that exist in our world, then basically every work of fiction is comparable. Sort of irrelevant if you ask me. Plus The Dark Tower series is pretty mediocre overall too (I know you wanted to hear it).

I suppose from your post you're not a huge fan of King's way of handling it? Or are you still sore about the finale?

Like Walter, I feel that the series went downhill after "The Gunslinger". The rest wasn't bad in itself but it was never as good as in the beginning to me. I don't think the ending's particularly good, but I didn't mind it much and I think it's the best out of all King's books for that matter. I also found the reference to the poem pretty neat. Now that isn't the topic of this thread at all, so no need to start a discussion about it here.

More like Midworld = Middle Earth = Midland (?)  :P

I can't see much of a connexion apart from having the syllabe "Mid" in common.

I'm not saying King and Miura are incorporating fantasy in the same way, just that it had the same effect on me as a reader.

Basically, both stories have a "real world" basis with fantasy elements in it. That can't be denied, however that isn't enough to make a valid/interesting/unobvious comparison between them, especially since the real world bases, fantasy elements, and the way they're used aren't the same. It's just a really common trait of fantastical works.

Offline Nickoten

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #188 on: April 12, 2006, 01:19:08 AM »
Quote
I can't see much of a connexion apart from having the syllabe "Mid" in common.

My comparison of Midworld to Middle Earth was just a reference to King's insertion of a number of Lord of the Rings references into the series, including the name. Midland obviously doesn't have that much in common with Middle Earth or Midworld save for the name, which I think was what Walter was referring to. My little comparison was not really to be taken seriously as they're related in different ways. Midworld and Midland only share the prefix as you said, while Midworld and Middle Earth share a little more. In the end it's just a miswritten comparison. Don't think too much on that equation part there, it's like scuba diving in a puddle.

As for your other points, I do agree that all fiction does this. I was just saying that I thought these two gave me a similar feeling because they were both purely fantasy works, though The Dark Tower is a bit heavier on its integration of fantasy and a modern world. My original point for bringing that up was just that it serves to give us a somewhat familiar world so that the way certain fantasy elements are used seem more out of place. You of course can see this in Berserk, but I brought this up with The Dark Tower because it uses this to a greater extent through the concept of alternate realities.

EDIT: Let me articulate this a little better. I'm grouping Berserk with other fantasy works that try to provide a somewhat realistic world. I pointed out The Dark Tower as a series that used this concept as an underlying theme particularly strongly.

That should sum it up decently, but now I'm realizing that someone is probably typing a response to the less clear portion of my post. Oops.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 01:26:11 AM by Nickoten »
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #189 on: April 12, 2006, 01:39:38 AM »
My little comparison was not really to be taken seriously as they're related in different ways.

Good, I thought as much but I wanted to hear it from you. :serpico:

I was just saying that I thought these two gave me a similar feeling because they were both purely fantasy works

Ok, I can understand that if you just meant it as a generic reference. Like I said, my only remark here would be that it's not especially relevant in the context, because a bit too broad and obvious. And I saw your edit after typing that, but that doesn't matter much as you can see.

My original point for bringing that up was just that it serves to give us a somewhat familiar world so that the way certain fantasy elements are used seem more out of place.

Then "somewhat" is the key here, because I can't say I'm really familiar with what's depicted in the Berserk world. :void: I get your point though, but I'm sticking to my original statement (I'd rather not compare the two).

Offline Nickoten

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #190 on: April 12, 2006, 01:50:43 AM »
Yeah, that's the main difference. "Familiar" in Berserk's case would mean something that feels more realistic in tone. Maybe because it seems so bleak.
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #191 on: April 12, 2006, 02:56:42 AM »
I think series within the same genre feature many similar elements. But I'd like to really compare the literal and figurative journey in Berserk to the literal and figuative journey in all stories ever. They almost all have one, you know.

P.S. In the Dark Tower comic book, can Guts crossover into the DT series if Roland should find himself in the level of the Tower encompassing Midland!? :isidro:

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #192 on: April 16, 2006, 09:27:41 AM »
Heh: Roland draws, Guts swings: "Gaggghhh! My fingers!"

  As for the current topic: Adding those realistic elements to fantasy stories adds a sense of intimacy and reality for the reader. Rather then just a story from Miura's mind it becomes a part of our consciousness when we see elements of it that we can compare to reality.
 So many of the elements in Berserk are portrayed in a very realistic context that makes them as if they are part of a historical chronicle or mythological epic: War's, disasters, inquisitions, heroic figures . . . The collective consciousness of humanity; not just in the story either. Kentarou Miura is tapping very deep into archetypical consciousness with Berserk western archetypical consciousness in particular in my opinion: You have all the fears of European society at that time exemplified and put into a very immediate metaphorical and historical context. Our desperate hope for Holy Saviors that would save us from the invading armies who would take our lives and land, the Dragons who would eat us alive and also on a subconscious level; from our own inhumanity.
 In his own words:
Quote
Berserk fans abroad are very happy. If you have any messages to the fans in the U.S...
Actually I kind of have a question. What do Westerners think of this fantasy world created by an Oriental? Many of us Orientals feel that the fantasy worlds created in Hollywood... or believed in by Westerners are more genuine fantasy worlds. And I think Berserk is strongly influenced by Western culture. I'm trying to create something from what I learned from the West. So I'm curious about what people in the West think of Berserk. That's my question to the fans in the U.S. I hope they like it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 09:32:20 AM by Forest Wraith »
The cold season drifts over the land.
They all huddle in the brown corners.
Some would settle for less.
The castles were all empty, asleep
Long awaiting their King.
Beckoning round the bend.
-Opeth: Karma

Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #193 on: April 16, 2006, 11:57:59 AM »
You have all the fears of European society at that time exemplified and put into a very immediate metaphorical and historical context. Our desperate hope for Holy Saviors that would save us from the invading armies who would take our lives and land, the Dragons who would eat us alive and also on a subconscious level; from our own inhumanity.
I agree with you on that but people are still waiting for a "savior"(should it be science,E.T or a God) all around the world...wanting to be "freed" is part of the human nature  :void:.
For myself I found that Berserk even if it's a "fantasy" mange has a deep humanistic dimension.
Guts for example is THE man I don't mean he is a super man but a "real" man,a man living through his experiences ; in some mange/comics(bande dessinées)a character is nice so he'll live all his adventures as a "nice" man or "bad" guy etc in Berserk Guts for example is neither bad nor nice he don't even know what he wants...living with his beloved Casca,killing Griffith...and he's not even sure he wants to kill him...so every "adventures" he lives change him even subtly physically (scars and all) and "spiritually" and really even if Guts's main trait is stubbornness he still lives like a real human being.
So for the deepness of the characters(all the main characters and even some minor one are really well developed) and many other aspect Berserk is really a humanist work...beyond the greatness of the epic.
PS:Sorry for the rush at the end because I've things to do...
Arf...

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2006, 08:32:44 AM »
Of course people are still waiting for a Savior but the concept of a savior is subject to change depending on time and place.
  One of Guts major traits as a main character is that he does not wait for a Savior, thus dooming himself to inaction and failure; but instead relies on himself for salvation. Even when he fails, he does not lose faith in his abilities or retreat into self-pity, doubt or second guessing. He simply acts and forces himself to do whatever is required to survive. That is the difference between him and those who are like him and the average person in his world who does not survive: The power of independence of thought and self-actualization.
  I would state that Berserk is the reverse of how you have described it: A great epic beyond the humanist story; Rather then "a humanist work...beyond the greatness of the epic." Considering that it is the individual narratives that create an experience that both encapsulates and transcends the individual.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2006, 08:48:05 AM by Forest Wraith »
The cold season drifts over the land.
They all huddle in the brown corners.
Some would settle for less.
The castles were all empty, asleep
Long awaiting their King.
Beckoning round the bend.
-Opeth: Karma

Offline Mad Angel Loki

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #195 on: April 24, 2006, 04:19:51 AM »
I still think it's a humanist work in the way that Guts live and act not passing through events but evolving with them...in the last post my point was more in the "realism" of the feelings of the characters of Berserk(Guts in this case)...
In berserk Miura depict(his) humanity and especially the "bad instincts" but Guts is the hero it's normal that he shines (a little bit)more than the other characters
Navertheless I disagree with you when you say that Guts don't doubt remember his reaction when he comes back to the BoTH he always wonder why he did leave them and IMO he regret that(even if he did not made anything wrong)...after the eclipse in the Retribution ARC he first turn "selfish"(he never was really selfish) then become the Guts you describe...he simply grown up!
Guts is stubborn he never keep trying but he's still a human...he teach to people that just wait and hope for a savior to live by themself ,in a way he teach them the true freedom...never giving up(or surviving) and living by yourself is the true fight of humanity;
the human being are(often) "afraid" of freedom, they don't know what to do when they are free  so they let Gods or Kings tell them what to do but Kings are human and Gods are created by humans and it's still human that tell you what Gods want so they can't make anything for you better than you can make yourself(if you try so)but you must have guts to do that and everybody isn't courageous...
Like Farnese once said after the fight with Mozgus Guts is the only true thing...in my eyes he's also the only true and "complete" human things, he's a hero because he isn't flawless or "doubtless" but he still continue to live...he's in my opinion what all human being should be!(And I want to add that Luca is the closest character to Guts in this way)
I really like the way you see Berserk but IMO even if it's a great epic the thing that make Berserk "special" is the humanism and "realism" of the characters and that's what made it a great humanist work...
That's all for tonight moreover I don't want to stay out of topic here(we should be talking about episode 271) so I suggest to open a new thread if you want to continue this discussion
C'ya
Arf...

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #196 on: April 24, 2006, 09:47:48 PM »
I didn't state that Guts never feels doubt; my point is is that he doesn't retreat into it by crying out for something or someone else to save him. He acts; that is what archetypical warriors do, they decide on the best possible course of action available and follow through to the best of their ability. Guts almost always has this simplified for him to the point of "Fight or die." However, it goes without saying that the average person in his circumstances would have suffered a collapse of some kind and been reduced to a state in which they would be incapable of acting.
  I think that we can just agree that Berserk is both a humanist work and an epic without having to argue over which is focused upon foremost in the story. I think that that most likely comes down to what elements we personally focus on anyway.
The cold season drifts over the land.
They all huddle in the brown corners.
Some would settle for less.
The castles were all empty, asleep
Long awaiting their King.
Beckoning round the bend.
-Opeth: Karma