Author Topic: Episode 271  (Read 45427 times)

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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #75 on: March 24, 2006, 08:42:03 PM »
Well, that shows that he definitely has more control.
Well, so did changing direction in mid-air, but this is all common knowledge if you read the translation.

Thanks for reaffirming it though :guts:
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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2006, 09:01:48 PM »
It's actually an interesting situation; at Flora's, even after he was concious, the mask stayed on (though it looked to be only a mask) and he did some incredible things before saving Casca and Farnese. Then the mask sort of trembled and "fell off" on its own, only to re-appear when he transformed again. So, either it's just a hollow mask on his face right now and is no different than if he wasn't wearing it (likely), or when it's still over him like that, he's still kinda juiced up. Could have something to do with how complete the armor is, even if it's not in full effect.

Anyway, at this point, it's only prudent to assume he's basically normal (like Wally said, the other scenario is too abstract to apply with any certainty, just something to consider). Kinda funny that it's sort of double-fooling us though, "Look at his face, it's like the Beast and Guts have merged!" Well, it IS a mask, afterall. =)

Offline mike.william

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #77 on: March 24, 2006, 10:59:19 PM »
Kinda hard to say it's any different than the last time.  Looks like he might have just been woken up and nothing more. 

I was hoping he'd stay in beast mode with Schierke giving him the ability to breathe fire or something.  Maybe next episode. 

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #78 on: March 24, 2006, 11:12:13 PM »
This is the first time Beast-Guts has helped his posse in a way that doesn't involve a killing spree.

Thank you-- I think that was a large part of what I was trying to get at.  I thought the whole situation with the mask felt different than what he's done in Berserk mode before.  Just my opinion, so whatever, but it seemed that way to me.

Quote from: QUeeN typhonblue
Looks like Guts is in his Wizard stage now thanks to Schierke. (I figured she'd help him out controling the armor's astral powers eventually.)

What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

Thanks.  :)

Offline Psymont 2.0

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2006, 11:19:38 PM »
i was looking for a nice version of 30's cover and stubled upon these

http://www.satyrnet.it/berserk/manga1.htm

italian covers are a little different

Offline regina777

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2006, 11:52:43 PM »
i was looking for a nice version of 30's cover and stubled upon these

http://www.satyrnet.it/berserk/manga1.htm

italian covers are a little different
but that is awesome- thanks for sharing. infact, i was, and am still amazed guts managed to change motions in the air. before he did that i was imagining to myself if he could actually fly sometime later- and then i see him do that- that was really amazing. it is quite clear that there is more to the mask that we dont know of yet. and like many have said it looks like guts is gaining more control- i hope he is.

Offline Woland

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2006, 04:06:37 AM »
technically, no, he hasn't spoken with the helm still on.  But he's definitely had conscious control before while the helm was still on.  I don't think its that much of a stretch to say he can also talk with the helm on, nor do I think it demonstrates some higher level of control over the armor.

We'll see.

As bad as the wound he recieved from the makara is, I'd suspect he's still getting a lot of the benefits of the activated armor.  But then, Guts wasn't really the one to take control again, since Schierke returned him to his senses.
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Offline Vetrox

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2006, 09:52:55 AM »
 :isidro: Daaaaamn what an ending. Catching the full force of a falling mast...the momentum built up could have crushed a damn truck.

And the half-fuse between guts and the Berserker armour...that just looked cool.

Thanks aplenty!  :guts:
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 09:57:54 AM by Vetrox »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2006, 10:42:41 AM »
*Best post of the thread*

I wish everybody would post like that.

Thank you-- I think that was a large part of what I was trying to get at.

So what you wanted to say was that this time Guts withheld a falling mast while wearing the armor and that he never did before? I'm not sure you guys realize that it isn't making any real point. I thought CnC's reply was clear enough on that matter... But since it doesn't seem to be the case, I'll answer myself:

it's the first time (atleast in a while-- perhaps ever?) that I've ever seen Guts, in the Berserk armor, doing something truly "heroic" in that prototypical-saving-people-Superman sort of way.

Ok, so first, Guts went Berserk in the armor 3 times counting the current events. That means you'll see him doing things "for the first time" in it for a while, because he's not done much besides fighting until now. Second, when Schierke woke him up while he was fighting Grunberd, she used Casca and told him he had to protect her. Then he jumped through a fireball to avoid facing his opponent, saved Isidro and Serpico by throwing his sword like if it was a knife and jumped at high speed to retrieve it, then rushed to Farnese and Casca, saving them from an apostle at the last moment. Then his helmet lifted up and he looked completely beaten. It's one of the most superheroish scenes in the whole manga. He had no personal interest in saving them as in "helping himself", he saved them because they're his friends and they were in danger. Granted, he killed monsters in order to save them instead of holding a burning mast. Big deal. I'll go ahead and say it doesn't make any difference. But then again, maybe if he had still had his helmet on when he saved Schierke from the falling tree branch on fire 5 pages later you guys would think differently?

Also, I feel like in the past, once the helmet has come up, he's gone "beasty"-- is that true?  Because this is one of the only times (the only time?) I can think of where Guts is wearing the helmet and yet truly has his own sense of himself-- as if he were really starting to learn how to control the armor (with Schierke's help).

See above, among the three times he's gone berserk in the armor, he's been "himself" with the helm on twice. The other time was when he almost killed his companions on the beach, the Moonlight Child had to intervene and the helmet went off as soon as Schierke pulled him from the "sea" through Flora's carved talisman. Anyway, both times he came back to himself while wearing the helmet were due to Schierke's actions and not his own, I think that invalidates your point. The only thing that could hint at him having more "control" over the armor than he did in volume 27 would be the fact that he still has the helmet on, but that isn't much and I think that's all there is for now.

reading Berserk is really reading about the sort of story that leads a normal person to do bizarre, extraordinary, and slightly insane things for the good of others

But Guts was never normal. He's always been an exception, from his birth until now.

I dunno-- I'm sure it could be argued that perhaps a lot of these things could be seen earlier

I think so, yes. Better late than never though. :guts:

What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

How about you search for the thread instead and revive it if you have anything to add to it? Thanks. She was referring to some generic and pseudo-archetypical evolution cycles of heroes in myths that are vague enough to allow people to twist and interpret them in any possible way so they apply (awkwardly) to any character. And since I'm such a nice guy, here's a link to it.

italian covers are a little different

Well that's isn't exactly a scoop. They have 3 editions and the regular one is composed of half volumes, for that reason they have twice more volumes and thus must use other pictures to fill in the blanks. In the past they've used side art Miura was doing for YA or posters, and nowadays they just use one of the insert posters that are in each Japanese volume. Nothing exceptional.

infact, i was, and am still amazed guts managed to change motions in the air. before he did that i was imagining to myself if he could actually fly sometime later- and then i see him do that- that was really amazing.

You're aware that he just used the weight of his sword to change the direction of his fall, right? He didn't actually fly, just smartly shifted the DS' position. Usual Guts stuff.

As bad as the wound he recieved from the makara is, I'd suspect he's still getting a lot of the benefits of the activated armor.

He always gets benefits from the armor as long as he's wearing it, though the armor's effects are stronger when he fights. That doesn't relate to what CnC was talking about: the fact that Guts speaking in the armor now and not doing it when Schierke woke him up in volume 27 doesn't prove anything because he simply didn't have the opportunity to do it at the time. It's just not making any point besides the fact that this time around the helmet hasn't automatically retracted as soon as Guts saved his friends (what it did in volume 27 after he killed the apostle threatening Casca and Farnese).

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2006, 01:59:49 PM »
Thank you Aaz, for your very detailed reply.  I still disagree, but whatever.

Indeed, Guts has often done many heroic things.  I simply thought the thing with the mast (which is obviously much less amazing than many other things he's done) was very "Supermanish"-- the pose specifically.  It had, obviously only to me, the taste of a "super hero" pose to it.  If you don't see that at all, that's cool-- we just disagree.  It seems obvious to me, but not to you-- perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyways, thank you very much for the link to the thread.




Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2006, 02:16:42 PM »
I simply thought the thing with the mast (which is obviously much less amazing than many other things he's done) was very "Supermanish"-- the pose specifically.

I don't see why it should be deemed less amazing than the rest, it's just not the first time he does something like that nor is it particularly more "heroic" than some of his previous actions. Anyway, you can see a lot of "Supermanish" poses in the manga if you search for them, we were already drawing that kind of parallels years ago... See, this used to be the frontpage of the site.

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2006, 02:32:07 PM »
Geez man, I know that was the front page of the site..... ::chuckle:: ::sigh:: I'm simply saying that pose, with the mast, seemed particularly like a Superman pose.  Obviously, knowing the manga better than I, perhaps you've seen other poses in the past that were also very "Supermanish" that I missed.  I saw this one.  It seemed very..... obvious and upfront about it.  Perhaps I was influenced by the "Batman-like" mask/ helmet at the end... in regards to thinking about superheroes.

I still hold that the helmet looks different now (as it does, a little bit, every episode)-- significantly so.  I know you think otherwise.  That's cool.

I also thought the link to the info regarding Campbells stages of the hero very interesting.  I take it,from the tone in your earlier post, that you thought it sort of meaningless or too vague or full of sh*t in general, but I really thought it full of interesting thought.

Finally, yes, Guts has always been a bit above normal in his abilities (I meant that jokingly).... he still seemed like a "normal" person to me.  I simply saw a parallel between the typical back stories of super hero's and Guts back story, which was something I hadn't seen before.  Perhaps that has always been obvious to you, or perhaps you still don't see it.  I can't tell.

I guess we just disagree on everything today.  :)  Oh well. :guts:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2006, 03:12:47 PM »
Geez man, I know that was the front page of the site..... ::chuckle:: ::sigh::

Well at least there's one thing you know then. :schierke: And do you know when it was the frontpage, or who colored it? Sorry but I'm just curious since that seems to be so obvious to you, surprisingly so.

I'm simply saying that pose, with the mast, seemed particularly like a Superman pose.

That's not simply what you said. Nobody disagreed with that (every other poster in this thread said so...), just with the rest. It sure looks heroic to protect people from a burning mast that's falling on them, and to do it using pure physical strength can easily be reminiscent of Superman's classic adventures. Who would disagree with that?

Perhaps I was influenced by the "Batman-like" mask/ helmet at the end... in regards to thinking about superheroes.

Yeah, or perhaps it was by the fact people talked about the superhero likeliness just before you posted? It doesn't really matter in any case, I don't think that needs to be dragged on.

I still hold that the helmet looks different now (as it does, a little bit, every episode)-- significantly so.

You didn't actually comment about the helmet looking different, you just said he had never been conscious while wearing it, which is wrong, and recently that the situation with the mask felt different from what Guts had done before while wearing it. However I did say so, specifically that it almost always looks different (even from one panel to another), and that I didn't think it was significant here. But if you think othewise, maybe you could specify in what it significantly differs (if possible, something that hasn't been said yet) as well as what you think should be considered significant? Please enlighten me.

I also thought the link to the info regarding Campbells stages of the hero very interesting.

Well, good for you I guess. I can't say I'm surprised though.

Guts has always been a bit above normal in his abilities (I meant that jokingly).... he still seemed like a "normal" person to me.

I think it's obvious Guts is more than "a bit" different from normal people. And I'm not just talking about his abilities but his life in general. There's really hardly anything normal about him.

I simply saw a parallel between the typical back stories of super hero's and Guts back story, which was something I hadn't seen before.  Perhaps that has always been obvious to you, or perhaps you still don't see it.  I can't tell.

Then I guess you should re-read my former post, because I already answered... It's just nothing new, but then again I don't think it'd be correct to say that Guts has a typical backstory either without oversimplifying it so...

Anyway like I said I'd be grateful if we didn't drag this on for too long, there are other (more interesting) topics that could be discussed here.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2006, 04:54:28 PM »
I loved Daiba this ep =).  He's just a grumpy old man that happens to be a powerful magician ("Young people these days..." ... "Hoho, it seems you are quite tough. Something we old people can't mimic"). I'm glad Miura didn't make him another generic Kushan,with a flat, bad-guy personality.  Then again, I guess I should expect no less from the creator  :miura:

I'm interested in Schierke's comment about his ability to create the cyclone in such little time, and with such a brief incantation.  It reminded me of the difference between Wizards and Sorcerors in D&D (a Wizard learns magic through studies/books, while the Sorceror's magic is innate).  But perhaps that's just a superficial assertion... I have a feeling the nature of Daiba's magic differs in many other ways.

Anyone else want to join the Daiba fan club?  If we get enough on the boat, maybe I'll make a Daiba emoticon. Though, I have no idea what the emotion would be...

PS: Digging his nails into his hands?  :???: XD
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Offline yota821

Re: Episode 271
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2006, 05:28:30 PM »
I love sorcerors, they're my fave in D&D.  :casca:


I have no idea how the kushan language works, or what the symbol that Daiba is apparently pronouncing stands for, but I wonder if it goes beyond just Ganishka controlling or empowering Daiba from afar.  Perhaps we'll get a better glimpse on how the fog/mist works??
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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2006, 08:13:52 PM »
I'd vote for one like  :???: but with sanskrit popping out of his head.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2006, 11:09:07 PM »
Anyone else want to join the Daiba fan club?  If we get enough on the boat, maybe I'll make a Daiba emoticon.

I'm officially in. :void:

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #92 on: March 26, 2006, 01:02:42 AM »
It would be cool to have a daiba emoticon, however I"m not sure what I'd use it for.  Maybe a "come kill me/bring it on" style ala Aaz's sig.
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darkbane

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #93 on: March 26, 2006, 01:18:06 AM »
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy. Guts and co aren't likely to leave him rampaging about in Vritannis, unless he overpowers them and forces them into fleeing.

So assuming Daiba and Schierke are at the same experience level, Daiba would know less spells but could cast them more often? -_- I would draw some more parallels here - maybe something like how Aes Sedai do a lot of hand weaving while Wise Ones focus on the essentials, or how Negi eventually learns no-incantation spells. Of course, it could be a totally different source of magic alltogether - something related to apostles, or evil spirits, or just to the Emperor.

I guess we're basically in the dark until Schierke comments on Daiba's magic during/after the fight. At the very least there should be some internal monologue coming up from her, right?  It would also be nice if Schierke would get a power-up from watching this fight, but I think that won't happen - Daiba's way of casting spells doesn't seem to respect elementals very much. At a wild guess, I'd say his way is more like holding them in a choke hold. But everything's on the table right now I guess (Isn't it always like that? ^_^).

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #94 on: March 26, 2006, 01:40:50 AM »
Daiba fan club. Sure, sounds good to me. Yet, I have a bad feeling about Daiba's remaining life expectancy. Guts and co aren't likely to leave him rampaging about in Vritannis, unless he overpowers them and forces them into fleeing.
Even when (if) he dies, we of his army will always remember our great leader. Viva la Daiba.

Quote
Nerdy Robert Jordan stuff...
Well, I really didn't mean the D&D comparison THAT literally  :serpico: Just that the means by which Schierke and Daiba cast their magic seem to be different.

Quote
Of course, it could be a totally different source of magic alltogether - something related to apostles, or evil spirits, or just to the Emperor. Daiba's way of casting spells doesn't seem to respect elementals very much. At a wild guess, I'd say his way is more like holding them in a choke hold. But everything's on the table right now I guess (Isn't it always like that? ^_^).
Well, it's anyone's guess at this point.  He meditates a bit before each casting, but I personally don't think he's consulting with elementals (if he was familiar with elemental summoning, the fire wheel adaptation wouldn't have suprised him, I don't think).  While it could be unrelated, he sure was bogarting that hookah while on the boat in ep. 243.   Maybe he becomes "one" with nature using some special herbs?  :guts:

PS: CnC, I'm working on the Daiba taunt as an emoticon... but I make no promises. It's difficult to cram that much into such a tiny image (25px height max). So, it may be different by the end.  As always, help is always greatly appreciated with this sort of project.
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Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #95 on: March 26, 2006, 01:48:11 AM »
While it could be unrelated, he sure was bogarting that hookah while on the boat in ep. 243.   Maybe he becomes "one" with nature using some special herbs?  :guts:

You inhale enough ganishka you're bound to be high as a kite.

PS: CnC, I'm working on the Daiba taunt as an emoticon... but I make no promises.

Hehe, cool
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darkbane

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2006, 01:56:44 AM »
"Nerdy Robert Jordan stuff"
:-P

Wait, that makes you a nerd for recognizing it, too   :miura: :serpico:

The "oneness" theory sounds kind of like GTA:SA... and if you know what scene and character I'm thinking of _this_ time, then you're a real nerd (but there's nothing wrong with that, per se)

(I am ;)) Looking forward to the emoticon - I don't have any artistic skills to help out, but good luck.

Offline QUeeN typhonblue

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2006, 04:06:02 AM »
What were you meaning by "wizard"?  I think this discussion up earlier-- like a year or two ago-- about different stages of growth.  Can you elaborate on this again?  It sounds very interesting to me.

Well you can read the thread that Az posted.

The stages of growth were one of the reasons I predicted that Casca would end up following a different path from Guts when/if she wakes up. In other words, she won't want revenge against Griffith.

So they can be useful in understanding some of the over-arching character development. But, like all theories, it is only useful in its predictive value.

Check out Joseph Cambell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, good stuff. Unless you think Miura is somehow less amazing if he is influenced by our mythological legacy and doesn't draw his work whole cloth from the ether. :???:


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Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #98 on: March 26, 2006, 04:54:43 AM »




Bring it.
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Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 271
« Reply #99 on: March 26, 2006, 05:03:43 AM »
lookin' good there, walter.  A worthy addition to the list of emoticons
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