Fighting the Neo-Hawks

Aazealh

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vlad said:
I perceive the storyline to have three possible (not cross-canceling) paths: 1. 2. 3.

These are good possibilities, but what you're saying is also a bit reductive. Guts won't necessarily have to kill every single apostle in the world for example, or most of them could die in the war against Ganishka.

Black_Devil said:
1. It'd have to be someone of the supernatural realm, or some super-powered entity, since no regular humans can challenge Griffith

The topic is fighting the Neo Hawks here, not Griffith. So new allies wouldn't necessarily have to be supernatural beings.

Sparnage said:
Aside the Eclipse, it seems to be since Guts has formed a group is when the crappier Apostles have come into the story, at least in comparison to the Snake Baron, The Count, Zodd, Wyald etc.

I don't think so. You want "crappy" apostles? How about the one on page 1 of volume 1? And since when is the Snake Baron not weak? He's on the level of the average apostle, I wouldn't give him 5 seconds against the current Guts. Then there's the guy that pursued Guts and Casca after the Occultation, plus all those that were gathered there as you said. There were always weaker apostles around, it's just that they weren't the focus before (i.e. the countless apostles Guts killed during his Black Swordsman days and that weren't shown in the manga), we only got to see the encounters that mattered. The Eclipse had a lot of weak apostles because a lot of them were gathered together, and thus it's the same for the Demon Army.

Sparnage said:
Serpico would likely be ready to battle several average Apostles already.

Haha, several apostles? I think you're giving him too much credit. He couldn't even defeat one during the battle at Flora's mansion, he was saved by Guts along with Isidro. I think he might be able to hold his own against a weakling, but if any serious one showed up (like Volkov or the big ones that serve under Grunberd for example) he'd have to flee. Now eventually, yes I believe he will be able to battle apostles with his elemental equipment, but it's still a bit early for now.

Sparnage said:
As Skully said, a Magic user can be more dangerous than an army of 10,000.

Just nitpicking a bit, but he said that Griffith probably thought so. It's important because it's related to the fact that Griffith can't be threatened by people in the corporeal world and through normal means, so it's specific to him.

Sparnage said:
As you said Guts having stronger control over the armour, or even fighting in the Armour at full health. Guts hasn't had the chance to do so, and I think Miura has likely intentionally put that off so when he finally does have his wounds heal (etheral and otherwise) he will be on another level.

That's a likely possibility. However, let's not give the armor too much credit and not enough to Guts. The armor's power is mainly to suppress the pain and fear of its user, and apart from all the side effects it's still Guts inside, kicking ass in spite of his wounds. The armor was particularly useful and spectacular in that respect: the fact Guts displayed a prodigious power while he should have been unable to stand. Nevertheless I'm still eager to see him back in shape and using the armor while at his full potential, no doubt Elfhelm will play a big role in achieving that and preparing the group to their future battles (assuming they will all end up fighting the Demon Army).

xbigvmanx said:
I like the fact Neo Hawks have a gruding respect for Guts.

Like Black_Devil said, a few apostles acknowledge his skill and talent, but calling it global respect from the Neo Hawks is already going a bit far. Even Zodd still talks to him like if he were worthless. Ganishka is probably the one giving him the most credit right now.

xbigvmanx said:
It might be possible that their loyalty for Griffith could waver b/c Guts is just one cool bad azz.

Not going to happen.
 

xbigvmanx

Gutz is a Bad azz
Aazealh said:
Like Black_Devil said, a few apostles acknowledge his skill and talent, but calling it global respect from the Neo Hawks is already going a bit far. Even Zodd still talks to him like if he were worthless. Ganishka is probably the one giving him the most credit right now.

Aaz I think i am going to strongly disagree with you on the part about Zodd thinking Guts as being worthless or talks to him in that manner. I think Zodd does give Guts a lot of credit due to the encounters they had in the past. Here are the facts that says Zodd respect Guts as a warrior
1. Guts manages to not only disarm him but he also wounds him in their first encounter.
2. Zodd throws his sword to Guts in the final battle of Tudor.
3. Zodd even says in vol 22 page 3 in their second encounter:
Quotes:
"I admire you. You broke my prophecy and survived!!
I am really happy, boy!!!"
 

Aazealh

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xbigvmanx said:
Aaz I think i am going to strongly disagree with you on the part about Zodd thinking Guts as being worthless or talks to him in that manner.

Well then I'm afraid you're wrong. I mean, can you read Japanese? If so I'm willing to hear your arguments about how "貴様" is a mark of respect but otherwise I'll stick to what I said. A lot of details are lost in the translation of Japanese to English, and that includes the variations in the way characters talk to each other. For example in episode 275 Ganishka was polite to Guts for a while, more than Zodd ever was. Of course "worthless" is an exaggeration (couldn't find a more proper word when I posted), but he's clearly disrespectful. However that doesn't mean that he's just contemptuous, but he doesn't address him respectfully (and the same goes for Guts), regardless of their mutual appreciation as warriors.

xbigvmanx said:
I think Zodd does give Guts a lot of credit due to the encounters they had in the past.

Like I said, he acknowledges and appreciates his skill and talent. No doubt about it, he's made it clear several times (in the same way Grunberd complimented him when he was forced to transform in volume 27). But as Black_Devil told you, Guts is more notorious than he is famous among apostles. It's not respect and esteem, and it's not anything like how they regard Griffith. I think our disagreement is really a simple matter of nuance here, and you're also taking Zodd as an example while he's really an exception. Anyway he does give Guts credit, but he also views him more as an entertaining kid that he likes to duel with rather than a deadly enemy, although that might change now that he's wearing the armor.

xbigvmanx said:
"I admire you. You broke my prophecy and survived!!
I am really happy, boy!!!"

Your previous examples don't really contradict what I'm saying, and the second one doesn't prove anything at all, but I want to address this one because that translation just sucks dude. Zodd says something more akin to:

"Good, you survived in spite of my prophecy!! I'm glad, kid!!!"

And the way he calls him kid isn't flattering. "I admire you" is just a fanciful interpretation.
 
Aazealh said:
Haha, several apostles? I think you're giving him too much credit. He couldn't even defeat one during the battle at Flora's mansion, he was saved by Guts along with Isidro. I think he might be able to hold his own against a weakling, but if any serious one showed up (like Volkov or the big ones that serve under Grunberd for example) he'd have to flee. Now eventually, yes I believe he will be able to battle apostles with his elemental equipment, but it's still a bit early for now.

Fair enough. Still, i'm betting through all his experience thus far, the next Apostle he comes in contact with he will handle be able to handle alone.

Just nitpicking a bit, but he said that Griffith probably thought so. It's important because it's related to the fact that Griffith can't be threatened by people in the corporeal world and through normal means, so it's specific to him.

OK, but surely with all the recent events of Schierke and other magic based elements coming into the story, it will make killing Griffith and Copious amounts of Neo Hawks all the more possible.

That's a likely possibility. However, let's not give the armor too much credit and not enough to Guts. The armor's power is mainly to suppress the pain and fear of its user, and apart from all the side effects it's still Guts inside, kicking ass in spite of his wounds. The armor was particularly useful and spectacular in that respect: the fact Guts displayed a prodigious power while he should have been unable to stand. Nevertheless I'm still eager to see him back in shape and using the armor while at his full potential, no doubt Elfhelm will play a big role in achieving that and preparing the group to their future battles (assuming they will all end up fighting the Demon Army).

I certainly don't rule out his natural power because of it, but things like the Armour are surely essential to his power growth if he ever has a chance to kill Griffith and other powerful beings. I believe he may also need other magic related means of obtaining power before the end in order to stand a chance.

Aside his natural strength and skill which we all know of, achknowledging Guts's credit in regards to the Armour is more or less completely that he's willing to risk his life and perhaps sanity more than he did before to use it.
 

Aazealh

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Sparnage said:
Still, i'm betting through all his experience thus far, the next Apostle he comes in contact with he will handle be able to handle alone.

Well, I do think he's getting better practically everytime he fights, but I can't be so categoric. Let's just say that neither would surprise me. I could see him handle a particularly weak apostle if the context were right, and I could see him try and fail against a moderately strong or even just an average one too.

Sparnage said:
OK, but surely with all the recent events of Schierke and other magic based elements coming into the story, it will make killing Griffith and Copious amounts of Neo Hawks all the more possible.

Of course, that doesn't change anything to the fact that magic in general is a threat to Griffith (and to the Neo Hawks by extension).

Sparnage said:
I certainly don't rule out his natural power because of it, but things like the Armour are surely essential to his power growth if he ever has a chance to kill Griffith and other powerful beings. I believe he may also need other magic related means of obtaining power before the end in order to stand a chance.

Yeah, the armor is essential to his power growth. I'm not sure it'll be enough to achieve his ends though, like you. But for now I can't possibly think of anything that would allow him to successfully battle against a member of the God Hand anyway.
 
The arrival of the Neo Hawks to Vritannis raises a whole new issue : How will Ganishka deal with them?
There is the possibility of him going around zapping them, then there are the land troops...
I'm more prone to the second notion, but saying that there'd have to be some unit stronger than the Daka and Pishacha (stating the obvious). IMHO to fight such an army (Neo Hawks) Ganishka will probably have to introduce magic users to the battle. This is based on the fact that we've already seen familiars and quasi-apostles turn out to be nothing more than blood and organ donors when facing such a force. Plus it appears that eastern magic is of a different nature than that displayed by Schierke, which could mean that it is more commbat oriented (no pun intended). By this I mean that casting powerful spells could take less time, and would not take so much out of the caster, as seems to be the case with Schierke.
All this rambling is a result of the fact that I don't believe Ganishka would be defeated just yet, at least not utterly, but on the other hand his current servants are below par.
 

Aazealh

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vlad said:
There is the possibility of him going around zapping them, then there are the land troops...
I'm more prone to the second notion, but saying that there'd have to be some unit stronger than the Daka and Pishacha (stating the obvious).

I do think he'll go around and fry them, no matter what else will happen. It's too much of an advantage for the Kushans to refrain from doing it, as long as it doesn't cost him something in exchange. Now I also think he won't be able to win just doing that, so more troops would be welcome. However, I'm not sure "stronger" troops will appear (if we put aside special astral creatures like the Kundalini, and even so I don't think we'll see more anytime soon), nor that they're a necessity. And that's simply because the Daka and Pishacha aren't actually that bad, they just can't compare with apostles. Ganishka had Makara, these were probably intended to be the heavy troops, but they're almost all dead now. If another part of the Kushan army comes to the rescue I think they'll rather try to swarm the apostles, like they did in Wyndham. For now that seems a more likely eventuality than finding "man-made" creatures stronger than apostles.

vlad said:
IMHO to fight such an army (Neo Hawks) Ganishka will probably have to introduce magic users to the battle. This is based on the fact that we've already seen familiars and quasi-apostles turn out to be nothing more than blood and organ donors when facing such a force.

Well, the Daka and Pishacha already require Kushan casters it seems, so the question is whether these special magic users could do something on their own or not. I'll address that below, but before I'd like to point out that calling the Daka quasi-apostles is really an abusive use of the word for now. They're created through a very specific process and using magic (apparently), so I don't think that appellation suits them.

vlad said:
Plus it appears that eastern magic is of a different nature than that displayed by Schierke, which could mean that it is more commbat oriented (no pun intended). By this I mean that casting powerful spells could take less time, and would not take so much out of the caster, as seems to be the case with Schierke.

You seem to be forgetting something important here. "Kushan" magic doesn't look like it's really of a different nature, rather it appears Daiba and the other underlings serving Ganishka aren't real magic users. They can't compare to Schierke for example. All Daiba did was using the Kundalini's power, that's why he could cast spells so fast... Without it he's useless. He was merely harnessing the power of an astral creature instead of using his own resources, and he didn't even know about elemental spirits, a shame for someone like him.

Basically all these casters do is to use and relay whatever power Ganishka bestows upon them, but the only real sorcerer we've seen on their side so far is Ganishka himself. If he has other creatures like the Kundalini in reserve they will surely prove deadly against Griffith's Demon Army, but unfortunately for him I doubt he has many (one or two more in Vritannis at best). And without these his men will probably not be able to do anything.
 
I'd like to point out that calling the Daka quasi-apostles is really an abusive use of the word for now. They're created through a very specific process and using magic (apparently), so I don't think that appellation suits them.
Perhaps I did use the term loosely, but the very process does involve using apostles, although not bestowing their power directly so I guess you are right (duh :guts:).
If another part of the Kushan army comes to the rescue I think they'll rather try to swarm the apostles, like they did in Wyndham. For now that seems a more likely eventuality than finding "man-made" creatures stronger than apostles.
It would depend on their numbers I suppose, but seeing how they fared in Wyndham, it would have to be large ones indeed. On the other hand we did not see what force Griffith deployed, I mean Grunberd's outfit of giants coupled with Locus' unit would probably be able to handle a whole host of Daka. Not to mention the fact that Ganishka will be busy with the airborne bunch, thus forced to limmit his ivolvement concerning the ground troops. Than there is the possibility of "banishing" the fog (the current episode discussion), if that were to take place the Kushan forces would face tough times.
Basically all these casters do is to use and relay whatever power Ganishka bestows upon them, but the only real sorcerer we've seen on their side so far is Ganishka himself. If he has other creatures like the Kundalini in reserve they will surely prove deadly against Griffith's Demon Army, but unfortunately for him I doubt he has many (one or two more in Vritannis at best). And without these his men will probably not be able to do anything.
I was kinda hoping for an introduction of another Kushan clan, magic users of some sorts. That is somewhat out there, but given the conclusion that there are different clans it is IMHO conceivable that Ganishka himself used to belong to such a clan.
All Daiba did was using the Kundalini's power, that's why he could cast spells so fast..
My bad on that one. :???:
 

Aazealh

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vlad said:
It would depend on their numbers I suppose, but seeing how they fared in Wyndham, it would have to be large ones indeed. On the other hand we did not see what force Griffith deployed, I mean Grunberd's outfit of giants coupled with Locus' unit would probably be able to handle a whole host of Daka. Not to mention the fact that Ganishka will be busy with the airborne bunch, thus forced to limmit his ivolvement concerning the ground troops. Than there is the possibility of "banishing" the fog (the current episode discussion), if that were to take place the Kushan forces would face tough times.

Yes, all of this is true, but nobody said the Kushans had to win. :carcus:

vlad said:
I was kinda hoping for an introduction of another Kushan clan, magic users of some sorts. That is somewhat out there, but given the conclusion that there are different clans it is IMHO conceivable that Ganishka himself used to belong to such a clan.

Well, I think it's safe to assume that Daiba and the other nameless casters belong to such a clan. However we have no reason to think a new group of serious and powerful magic users will appear given what we've seen of them until now. The mysterious "land general" could be one, but apart from him... As for Ganishka's origin, I won't be touching the subject until we have more information.
 
D

Death Can Wait

Guest
Apostles are becoming more and more confusing to me. In the beginning, it almost seemed as if becoming apostles almost corrupted (again, through the current evil ideal of the world and all) but some don't seem so fiendish. Most of the neo hawks are Zodd archetypes, seeking the pleasure of the fight and carrying some code of honor versus a "I do what I want, you have problem?" attitude. If Miura wants me to keep reading berserk and doesn't throw in a surpsingly super awesome wrench, I want Guts to totally fucking slaughter Griffith.
 

Aazealh

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Death Can Wait said:
In the beginning, it almost seemed as if becoming apostles almost corrupted (again, through the current evil ideal of the world and all) but some don't seem so fiendish.

Your sentence doesn't make sense. Almost corrupted what? In any case, apostles were humans in the first place, so they're all different from one another. Like humans. And they're all "evil" to some degree, no matter how contrasted their personality might be. But this thread isn't about the nature of apostles anyway.

Death Can Wait said:
Most of the neo hawks are Zodd archetypes, seeking the pleasure of the fight and carrying some code of honor versus a "I do what I want, you have problem?" attitude.

I don't think so, no. Most of them actually are typical monsters that have trouble refraining their most basic desires (like eating people). This is clearly shown in volume 22. The 5 generals of the Hawks are the only ones that are above the rest.

Death Can Wait said:
If Miura wants me to keep reading berserk and doesn't throw in a surpsingly super awesome wrench, I want Guts to totally fucking slaughter Griffith.

I don't think Miura cares much about your personal requests you know, and that's not really the topic here.
 
D

Death Can Wait

Guest
Aazealh said:
Your sentence doesn't make sense. Almost corrupted what? In any case, apostles were humans in the first place, so they're all different from one another. Like humans. And they're all "evil" to some degree, no matter how contrasted their personality might be. But this thread isn't about the nature of apostles anyway.
Yes, I know they are

I don't think so, no. Most of them actually are typical monsters that have trouble refraining their most basic desires (like eating people). This is clearly shown in volume 22. The 5 generals of the Hawks are the only ones that are above the rest.

I don't think Miura cares much about your personal requests you know, and that's not really the topic here.

1)Yes, I know they are all evil to some degree. Sorry for the misunderstanding, example, when the snail apostle has his flashbacks, again, a little rage driven and violent, yet he couldn't kill his wife at that moment and wished for death instead. After becoming an apostle, even cited by his own daughter, he became more violent and torturous, not really giving a damn about his own people and going on witch hunts for the hell of it. A definitive change in personality once going apostle.

2)Portaining to the above, the 5 generals again, show more reserve and control over themselves and don't indulge in their power as much as those below their command.

3)Of course Miura doesn't give a damn, yet figurately all authors want their fans to enjoy their work, so by that nature as a "fan", this would be what satisfies me. No, it wasn't the topic, I actually had something on the subject but hit the post to early, which I will go into now.


Guts has already shown with the berserker armor he has no problems with the lower legions (at least sans the double-edged sword that is the armor) and had a pretty solid confrontation with Grunbeld. I am not certain myself, yet the 5 generals seem -reasonably- on par with each other with various strengths and weaknesses that basically even them out as a group. I could see Guts and party getting through them some how but I could almost expect Guts gaining his own army in the future. There's no reason to believe such, but if Guts is really planning to get a good solid revenge, he's not just going to be able to "assassinate" Griffith with a sniper rifle.
 

Aazealh

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Death Can Wait said:
Portaining to the above, the 5 generals again, show more reserve and control over themselves and don't indulge in their power as much as those below their command.

Yes, you're just repeating what I said.

Death Can Wait said:
I actually had something on the subject but hit the post to early, which I will go into now.

Ok. You can take your time to post you know, people usually appreciate well crafted posts a lot more than hasty ones. Don't hesitate to edit your posts either if you have something to add to them.
 
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