Does anyone think that Caska's just going to be fine after Elfheim?

BlueAnt · June 27, 2006

Because, on the off chance that the place hasn't been destroyed or the group is refused because they have Puck (Let's face it, he was probably exiled), I see one of four things happening:

1. Caska is brought back to normal, but has no memories prior to The Eclipse.

Or:

2. Caska is only lucid at Elfheim, nowhere else.

Or:

3. She could be fine, but she'll choose not to, or something. I don't know, Skullknight kind of implied that.

Or:

4. She can only be cured by killing Griffith.

In addition, they'll probably have to find a herb or something for it work, at this rate.

As an aside, is there any chance that the number of throwing daggers Gutts has left has any sort of symbolism behind it? Maybe something along the lines of he's growing more detached from his old life as a member of the Hawks? It just seems odd that he hasn't replenished them as time went on.

Or I'm just attaching meaning to something that really doesn't mean anything.

Oh, and if these topics have been done to death and I just missed them, feel free to lock/ignore this.

Aazealh · June 27, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Hi BlueAnt, welcome! :serpico:

A few remarks:

BlueAnt said:
Because, on the off chance that the place hasn't been destroyed

It's unlikely that it was, from what we currently know.

BlueAnt said:
the group is refused because they have Puck (Let's face it, he was probably exiled)

Probably? What do you base this on? I don't see it happening anyway.

BlueAnt said:
2. Casca is only lucid at Elfhelm, nowhere else.

Not theorically impossible, but that would seem a bit strange to me. Still, a good excuse to have her stay in there while Guts goes away fighting his revenge I guess. Only that'd be volume 14 all over again, and I don't see that happening either.

BlueAnt said:
3. She could be fine, but she'll choose not to, or something.

Refusing to become sane you mean? I somehow doubt it, as it would put a final stop to her character's evolution. I could see her being reticent to come back to normal at first with maybe Guts having to come comfort her inside her soul or something, but not a direct and final "I'd rather stay insane, but thanks for asking."

BlueAnt said:
4. She can only be cured by killing Griffith.

I don't see why the Hanafubuku Ô would require something like this, and SK specifically said he could cure her so... I doubt that. Besides, killing Griffith wouldn't change anything to what he did to her.

BlueAnt said:
In addition, they'll probably have to find a herb or something for it work, at this rate.

Probably? Again, what do you base this on?

BlueAnt said:
As an aside, is there any chance that the number of throwing daggers Guts has left has any sort of symbolism behind it? Maybe something along the lines of he's growing more detached from his old life as a member of the Hawks? It just seems odd that he hasn't replenished them as time went on.

I don't think so, it's more like he's out of stock. Same for the rest of his equipment, he only uses it sparsely now.

BlueAnt said:
Oh, and if these topics have been done to death and I just missed them, feel free to lock/ignore this.

The Casca one has been in fact, don't hesitate to search for older discussions on the topic.

BlueAnt · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Well, do you really see the arrival at Elfhelm being all that cheery/without conflict? I guess "probably" is too strong a word, sure, but I don't see this ending well, and the place being devastated preemptively by Griffith, or Puck leaving for a reason other than "He got bored" seems (to me) entirely plausible.

The herb thing is just a sad, half-hearted attempt on my part to poke fun at the currently slow-moving story.

Casca being aware only at Elfhelm seems reasonable, sort of an amplification of Godo's mine.

Aazealh · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

BlueAnt said:
Well, do you really see the arrival at Elfhelm being all that cheery/without conflict? I guess "probably" is too strong a word, sure, but I don't see this ending well, and the place being devastated preemptively by Griffith, or Puck leaving for a reason other than "He got bored" seems (to me) entirely plausible.

I don't think a "happy arrival" is all that impossible. And there could be many complications not involving what you cited. Don't forget that Guts is in pretty bad shape for example, and he's not getting any better. So anyway, when exactly did Griffith devastate it, and how? We've seen the Hawks' progress thus far, and it didn't involve Elfhelm. Which is a place supposedly populated with powerful magic users (like Flora) and hidden in the middle of the sea. We're assuming Griffith even knows it exists of course, and that he can destroy it (which is not probable IMHO).

Concerning Puck's departure from there, we just can't be sure about it for now (and I invite you to post in the Puck! topic about it), but I don't think it'd be scenaristically realistic for the group to arrive there to just find a closed door, forcing them to go back. Besides that kind of behaviour doesn't fit elves at all, and Puck wouldn't have told Guts about Elfhelm in the first place if it had been the case (knowing they wouldn't be able to get in).

BlueAnt said:
The herb thing is just a sad, half-hearted attempt on my part to poke fun at the currently slow-moving story.

I see...

BlueAnt said:
Casca being aware only at Elfhelm seems reasonable, sort of an amplification of Godo's mine.

But she wasn't aware of anything in Godot's mine, just protected from spectres. Besides SK clearly said the Hanafubuku Ô could do it, so that means it'd relate to his power and not necessarily the place itself. And finally, it'd repeat the pattern of the Black Swordsman/Retribution arcs like I said, which I don't think will happen. But yeah, other than that it's a valid possibility.

BlueAnt · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Well, not the Neo-hawks themselves, but members of the Godhand-we've seen Conrad generally causing havoc by spreading plague-I think it's possible Ubik, or maybe even Void have decided to try and disrupt a potential threat (If Flora, a single, isolated witch was deemed worthy of being wiped out by a group of Apostles, attacking an island filled with wizards seems likely).

Since we don't really know a lot about the Elf King's power (i.e, if Shierke is more comfortable casting spells in her witch clothes, maybe it could be extrapolated that the Elf King's magic is effected by Elfhelm itself/works best there), speculating on it is kind of fruitless.

I'll admit Guts and co. being unceremoniously barred from Elfhelm seems like terrible storytelling in retrospect, and completely going against Puck's character. Point ceded.

Aazealh · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

BlueAnt said:
Well, not the Neo-hawks themselves, but members of the Godhand-we've seen Conrad generally causing havoc by spreading plague-I think it's possible Ubik, or maybe even Void have decided to try and disrupt a potential threat

But the question is: could they? Conrad's manifestation was weak and faded quickly, more akin to Slan's appearance in the Albion caves than anything else (just showing his influence on the phenomenon). He showed up because it was a favorable place for him to appear. Slan appeared in the Qliphoth because it was deeply linked to her (she related it to her womb) but even so she was still extremely weak in comparison to her real self. Elfhelm on the contrary is a haven of elves where powerful magic users live. I don't think the God Hand's grasp of the corporeal world is strong enough for them to attack such a place yet.

BlueAnt said:
(If Flora, a single, isolated witch was deemed worthy of being wiped out by a group of Apostles, attacking an island filled with wizards seems likely).

Well, except if Flora had been in her prime the apostles might have all died (the only two that might have not being Zodd and Grunberd, and then again I wouldn't bet on it). Look at what Ganishka's doing to the Neo Hawks. So several or more magic users together, in an elfin haven where lives an Elf king which is said to be very powerful... Seems too big a target for them (currently) to me.

BlueAnt said:
Since we don't really know a lot about the Elf King's power (i.e, if Schierke is more comfortable casting spells in her witch clothes, maybe it could be extrapolated that the Elf King's magic is effected by Elfhelm itself/works best there), speculating on it is kind of fruitless.

Yeah, it's definitely possible like I said, Miura could work this out if he wanted to. Although that comparison with Schierke is a bit irrelevant IMHO. But yeah, it's baseless for now and I think it'd be pretty reductive for Casca's character.

BlueAnt · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Yes, it's probably unlikely that the Godhand has completely razed Elfhelm, but maybe some corruption of high-ranking officials isn't out of the question.

I don't know, I guess I can't really go any further with this without more info on Elfhelm (Like, if it actually has enough structure to have "high-ranking officials" outside of the Elf King). Oh well, guess we'll have to wait and see,

Aazealh · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

BlueAnt said:
Yes, it's probably unlikely that the Godhand has completely razed Elfhelm, but maybe some corruption of high-ranking officials isn't out of the question.

Haha the God Hand corrupting elves? Now that is original. I don't think it could be the case but hey, who knows? Anyhow, I'll have to agree that for now that's all too speculative to be able to elaborate seriously.

BlueAnt · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Well, not even elves, necessarily, but maybe a powerful wizard? They can't all be good guys, can they?

And I think the Schierke comparison works-it shows that magic can be effected by something as small as clothing, so why not someone's homeland, or being surrounded by so many elves, in the middle of the ocean, etc.

But this falls back under the whole "too speculative" thing, so maybe it doesn't.

Aazealh · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

BlueAnt said:
Well, not even elves, necessarily, but maybe a powerful wizard? They can't all be good guys, can they?

Well, living in Elfhelm... I think they would. Once again, it's probably the worst place on earth for the God Hand to try something. Elves are practically the incarnation of Good in Berserk.

BlueAnt said:
And I think the Schierke comparison works-it shows that magic can be effected by something as small as clothing

In Schierke's case she's emotionally attached to her clothes because they're from Flora. It doesn't mean her powers are restricted like what your idea would imply for the Hanafubuku Ô. Also, considering the fact Casca's mind itself would be cured, I have trouble imagining how it could be linked to a specific place. Her "soul" is probably the problem.

Nomad X · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

BlueAnt said:
Puck (Let's face it, he was probably exiled)

i'm going to tie Puck with the traveling circus that Judo(Judeau....spell) was a part of. since he said he had gotten that elf dust from an elf while in the traveling circus.

Walter · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Nomad X said:
i'm going to tie Puck with the traveling circus that Judo(Judeau....spell) was a part of. since he said he had gotten that elf dust from an elf while in the traveling circus.

Stuff like this would really be great in the Puck! thread, as it's a little tidbit about Puck's past that's easily overlooked. So, if you'd like to continue the discussion, do it there and I'll follow you over.

Could you be a little more clear on what your implication is here? Puck had relations with a traveling circus, that much we know, but I don't see how it has anything to do with Elfhelm.

Good call though.

Raziel · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Somehow I doubt Casca will be cured so easily whenever they reach Elfhelm, if she technically gets cured at all. Curing her is bound to be an obstacle even when the group gets there, since I doubt Miura would make things that easy and he'll probably throw another twist in the plot our way.

Then again, I wonder if Casca is going to make it through the entire series sometimes.

Aazealh · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Nomad X said:
i'm going to tie Puck with the traveling circus that Judo(Judeau....spell) was a part of. since he said he had gotten that elf dust from an elf while in the traveling circus.

This isn't an assumption, we know for certain that Judo and Puck were part of the same group of traveling performers (we see Puck in the background when Judo mentions it). They're also the ones that rescued Rickert after his comrades' death (assuming Puck didn't move to another group in-between). Anyway, this has nothing to do with this thread as Walter pointed out. Puck joined with these people after he left Elfhelm, but that doesn't help us finding why and how he left.

Raziel said:
Somehow I doubt Casca will be cured so easily whenever they reach Elfhelm, if she technically gets cured at all. Curing her is bound to be an obstacle even when the group gets there, since I doubt Miura would make things that easy and he'll probably throw another twist in the plot our way.

So easily? What's easy about all they've done so far? It's not like traveling to Elfhelm is a piece of cake, it's taken 9 volumes so far. Besides it's actually been said she could finally regain herself, it's not blind speculation. As for her curation being an obstacle (to what?), I don't see why. And you're not saying anything to justify it either. Don't underestimate the plot development because you can't envision it, there are tons of ways Miura could make it work.

Skullgrin140 · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

I just seriously hope Caska will be ok after Elfhelm, She use to be such an awesome character :judo:

Maddness · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

i think SK was more implying as some people who have memory loss due to traumatic events in their lives. I think he was more saying "is that what she wants" mainly because she may not what to remember all the horrible things that happened in the eclipse, especially knowing the fact that everyone she cared about was killed by the man she made her dreams. Who's to say anyone would want to become sane just to be miserable.

smoke · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Does anybody ever wonder what incentive Hanafubuku Oh would have for curing Casca? The general consensus on the board is that the elves have mostly stopped caring about the affairs of humans, so why would the freaking elf king go out of his way to help a couple of humans?

I'm not sure that healing Casca will be as simple as arriving at Elfhelm. I'd really love to see her restored to her prior state, but I get this feeling that maybe it won't happen.

Walter · June 28, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

smoke said:
The general consensus on the board is that the elves have mostly stopped caring about the affairs of humans

No it's not.

so why would the freaking elf king go out of his way to help a couple of humans?

Because it's in his power to do so. Anyway, we can't know the incentives for a character we haven't even met yet. When Flora first appeared, we didn't know her incentives either, but they were made known later.

Raziel · June 29, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Aazealh said:
So easily? What's easy about all they've done so far? It's not like traveling to Elfhelm is a piece of cake, it's taken 9 volumes so far. Besides it's actually been said she could finally regain herself, it's not blind speculation. As for her curation being an obstacle (to what?), I don't see why. And you're not saying anything to justify it either. Don't underestimate the plot development because you can't envision it, there are tons of ways Miura could make it work.

Actually, I didn't intend for my previous post to mean that the journey to Elfhelm was easy, which is far from it. I also know that Casca is said that she'll finally get cured once she reaches Elfhelm, but a possible obstacle that might stand in the way of that could be Casca herself, in that she doesn't want to be restored to her former self. In other words she doesn't want to face reality and the event that traumatized her in the first place, which you can't really blame her for if she feels that way.

I know there's a ton of ways Miura could make things work, I'm not denying that in any way, since I've got faith that he'll be able to pull off the story and make it great just like he's always done throughout ever twist and turn in the story so far. But I guess all we can do is wait and see.

Aazealh · June 29, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Raziel said:
a possible obstacle that might stand in the way of that could be Casca herself, in that she doesn't want to be restored to her former self.

Yeah, it's been said several times in this thread already. Doesn't really justify what you said in your previous post though, even regarding a hypothetic plot twist (since this is a predictable occurrence).

dwarfkicker · June 29, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

My opinion is that Caska getting cured isn't going to be as simple as them meeting the King. I wouldn't be surprised if Guts has to do something to prove himself, or do some kind of errand for the King. Kinda like, "accomplish this and I'll grant your request," sorta thing.

As for Caska being an obstacle to her own curing, I doubt that very much. I think Skull Knight's words meant that she might not want to go after Griffith like Guts does. With the way Caska acted toward Griffith back on the Hill of Swords, it kinda hints at this.

Aazealh · June 30, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

dwarfkicker said:
I think Skull Knight's words meant that she might not want to go after Griffith like Guts does.

Well it's really hard to be sure about what he meant to be honest. It's pretty vague, and he just says "might not." He also doesn't talk about what Guts "wants" but what he "hopes."

dwarfkicker said:
With the way Casca acted toward Griffith back on the Hill of Swords, it kinda hints at this.

You mean, with the way she reacted to her son's presence inside Griffith's body (well, the body he took over)? I think it's important to be precise here. Anyway that's sure to play a role (especially in regard to the Moonlight Boy), but once she'll be back to normal (assuming she ever does of course), who's to say she'll still be as sensitive to his "presence" as before? If she doesn't remember what happened during her oblivion that means she wouldn't even know she had (has actually) a child. And once Guts knows about this, it might play as big a role for him for all we know. Granted, he wasn't particularly fond of the kid while he was haunting him as a deformed demon but things are different now. And in fact it might even play a bigger role in Griffith's own actions, see what happened in volume 22 for example. If the child can influence his decisions... He'll have trouble killing his dad. But that's deviating a bit from the topic.

Other than that, you'll have to excuse me but I don't think she'll be defending the man who raped her and killed her comrades/subordinates after all she (they) did for him and his dream. If she ends up opposing the idea of trying to kill him it'll be more so she can move on with her life and not because she wishes him the best IMO.

dwarfkicker · June 30, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

Other than that, you'll have to excuse me but I don't think she'll be defending the man who raped her and killed her comrades/subordinates after all she (they) did for him and his dream.

Even though she was probably acknowledging the baby's presence, it's still Griffith she's looking at, and she didn't have any crazy fits. Just look at how she treats Guts right now. I would expect some of that mixed in with her acknowledgment of Griffith's vessel when she looks upon him.

If she ends up opposing the idea of trying to kill him it'll be more so she can move on with her life and not because she wishes him the best IMO.

I can agree with this. Her wanting to settle down instead of living on a battlefield where Guts can further wreck himself is a possibility.

Granted, he wasn't particularly fond of the kid while he was haunting him as a deformed demon but things are different now. And in fact it might even play a bigger role in Griffith's own actions, see what happened in volume 22 for example. If the child can influence his decisions... He'll have trouble killing his dad. But that's deviating a bit from the topic.

Yeah, but as Femto he also hesitated to take out SK, because Guts was with him, so in essence he showed restraint from killing Guts even back then.

Aazealh · June 30, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

dwarfkicker said:
Even though she was probably acknowledging the baby's presence, it's still Griffith she's looking at, and she didn't have any crazy fits.

But she doesn't remember who Griffith is. Nor anybody else. She wasn't "probably acknowledging" the kid's presence but "most probably reacting to it." She bled like hell but she still tried to touch him, and she ran to him just by feeling his presence through the Brand (i.e. not seeing him). Isn't that big enough of an indication? What she looks at doesn't matter, it's all about what she sees. She never freaked out at the kid's appearance when he was deformed, that's also not normal behavior if we only talk about what she was looking at... Even though Miura purposedly made it so the reader (and Guts) would feel uncertain about it, I think it'd be sort of illogical if she had some subconscious attraction to Griffith himself in the context, especially in the way it was depicted. Plus it wouldn't fit with the rest of her symptoms. But of course we can't be 100% sure yet and all that...

dwarfkicker said:
Just look at how she treats Guts right now.

After he tried to kill her and bit her breast strong enough to draw blood? That's why she treats him like that.

dwarfkicker said:
I would expect some of that mixed in with her acknowledgment of Griffith's vessel when she looks upon him.

She has no memories of Guts from her previous life (nor of anything else as far as we know). Her behavior toward him is only the result of what he did after she lost her mind. Same thing with her child, same thing with everything. As far as I can tell this is another proof that she only saw her son in Griffith and not Griffith himself. The fact she didn't have any "crazy fits" like you said makes it practically obvious to me. Hell, even comparing her reaction in all these cases (to the child and later to "Griffith"), it's quasi-identical everytime.

dwarfkicker said:
Yeah, but as Femto he also hesitated to take out SK, because Guts was with him, so in essence he showed restraint from killing Guts even back then.

How can you tell he hesitated? He missed SK once as he was coming toward him, then he tried getting him again but SK was already far away and moving fast. He might just have not been able to take him out at all and knew it. So as he watches SK disappearing, he looks at Guts, escaping from his cold wrath... Or he could've been distracted by the thought of it so that he missed his chance. But I don't really buy the "sparing them out of mercy" scenario considering what he was doing right before (not to mention the events in volume 3). In any case, it's different now that he was incarnated into the Demon Child's body. He actually went out of his way to protect Casca, instinctively. And he sensed the child's feelings, reacting to Guts' battle with Zodd.

Herald of Yama · June 30, 2006

Re: Does anyone think that Casca's just going to be fine after Elfhelm?

To some degree, I must agree with BlueAnt. When the choice is staying in a state of ignorance about the horrors that have befallen you, or facing the reality of those horrors everytime you look around you, the choice is not easy. I also think that Guts will be a vital part of that decision, when the time comes.

Because it's in his power to do so. Anyway, we can't know the incentives for a character we haven't even met yet.

True enough, but this does not excuse him from first having incentives. Skull Knight merely stated that Hanafubuku Ou could cure her, not that he would do so without question. The fact that Skully brought it up at all indicates that he thought there was a high degree of certainty, but not that it was a causal relation of 'go to Elfhelm:Casca gets cured.' I would say we can be 90% certain that she will be cured, and 85% certain that it won't involve too much difficulty on HO's part.

Does anyone think that Caska's just going to be fine after Elfheim?

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