Dark Horse Releases

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Rhombaad said:
Well I've decided to hold off on purchasing Vol. 12 (and any other volume in the future, for that matter, that translates the sound effects by obstructing Miura's artwork, however minor the obstruction might be). :miura:
Wow, you guys... you're treating this like it's some kind of personal offense to you. You won't be helping Berserk by black listing the series because of this supeficial change, you know.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Walter said:
Wow, you guys... you're treating this like it's some kind of personal offense to you. You won't be helping Berserk by black listing the series because of this supeficial change, you know.

well, I don't know about the rest of 'em, but I buy these mainly for the artwork. Having the speech bubbles translated is a bonus to me. So if theres anything in the way of that artwork that takes out 60-70% of why I love it (the rest being mostly story). And thus no reason to buy this version in addition to my support of the japanese versions.

But thats just coming from a standpoint of someone who already owns the volumes and needs additional incentive to re-buy them.
 
Walter said:
Wow, you guys... you're treating this like it's some kind of personal offense to you. You won't be helping Berserk by black listing the series because of this supeficial change, you know.

Damn straight! You know, with those captions it's not like you're missing out on chunks and chunks of artwork. Besides, we ain't the only fans of Berserk you know. If somebody doesn't like the SFX translations, someone else always might. We shouldn't get all mad about those tiny captions. Let me tell ya, if the series was licensed by Viz Media, apart from the usual severe censorship and editing that we've come to expect from them, we also wpuld've received our SFX translations in those "lovely" gargantuous English texts, pasted right across the entire artwork. If this were to happen to Berserk, then I'd be most disappointed and outraged. Yeah, I checked the scans of Berserk with the translated SFX subtitles on the DH website, and to me, it doesn't look too bad. It does affect the art somewhat, but only very little. You're not missing out on anything that you would've, if the FX were replaced completely with those goddamned Viz English FX texts. So, let's all be just happy with what we've got.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
BayJumper said:
if the series was licensed by a bastard manga company *cough* Viz Media *cough*, apart from the usual severe censorship and editing that we've come to expect from those fuckers
Geez dude, I don't know what series you've been reading by Viz, but they've done an outstanding job with Vagabond. It contains none of your aforementioned shittiness. I actually wish Viz HAD licensed Berserk, given their incredible work with Vagabond. DH really does a relatively worse job with Berserk, given their appalling descriptions of the series on the back cover, spelling errors, translation oddities and sound effect nonsense (and a lack of an appendix, which Vagabond has for each volume, describing characters/locations/historical information).

But all of this doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying Berserk altogether. On the whole, I've really enjoyed what DH has done. I just think they have room for improvement.
 
Walter said:
Geez dude, I don't know what series you've been reading by Viz, but they've done an outstanding job with Vagabond. It contains none of your aforementioned shittiness. I actually wish Viz HAD licensed Berserk, given their incredible work with Vagabond. DH really does a relatively worse job with Berserk, given their appalling descriptions of the series on the back cover, spelling errors, translation oddities and sound effect nonsense (and a lack of an appendix, which Vagabond has for each volume, describing characters/locations/historical information).

But all of this doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying Berserk altogether. On the whole, I've really enjoyed what DH has done. I just think they have room for improvement.

Just because they've done things right with some of their releases, doesn't mean that Viz had done justice with them all, you know. I'm not gonna eloborate more on this, because this is not a Viz Media forum. But I've gotta tell ya, ever since manga has gone mainstream during the last couple of years, large publishers such as Viz and Tokyopop have begun to shy away from licensing seinen manga titles. So when I heard in late '03 that DH had licensed Berserk, I wasn't too surprised at all. With a manga series with heavy violence and explicit content like it, any company which were to pick it up and release it uncut all the way, must've had balls made out of steel.
I agree with you Walter, the job that DH has done with Berserk is anything but perfect. While their adaptation of the series is not bad, it sure could've been hell of a lot better.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Yeah, not sucking could be better, and it's actually getting worse (sound boxes that cover the artwork that they've already darkened too much; fantastic). I can see why DH gravitated towards Berserk though; their handling of the series has been more obscene than anything in it.

I'll take my Vizabond, thank you.
 
Well with a series this popular, its impossible to please everyone, so theres always going to be some people who take offense to things that others dont. I personally do care for the FX, but its not a deal-breaker for me.

The summerizations on the back of the volumes DO annoy me however. " now with the discovery of a massive sword called the dragon slayer, Guts will deal out some king-sized payback!!!"

urgh..
 

TheSkyTraveller

Monster adventures on the high seas!
There are two ways of looking at it.

One is a matter of practicality. You aren't going to please all the fans all the time. Any company would have a difficult time pleasing someone as incredibly picky as me. :puck: So DH is trying to do their best to make it accessible to the most people with the least amount of compromise regarding preserving the original work. So we get an unedited story, and uncut, unflipped art, which is good. The translation seems decent for the most part, aside from weird stuff like "Knight of Skeleton." Those are probably the most important things to consider anyway. We can support the manga, and hopefully some profits will trickle back to Miura. But then we also get stuck with negative stuff like adding distracting sound effects boxes out of the blue, ugly graphic design, and ridiculous copy on the backs of the manga that, I guess, are supposed to be appealing to someone. In this case, it's up to the customer to decide if those grievances are worth not buying the comic. For practical purposes, the release is more positive than negative.

On the other hand, there's the matter of principal. Buying something sends the message to a company that you like what they're doing, and that they should keep doing it. I'm sure that customer comments are taken into consideration, but the biggest consideration for any company is money, and money talks. If everyone keeps buying something they're not entirely happy with, they'll still get something they're not entirely happy with. So, with this scenario, do I want to spend a lot of money to re-buy a series I already have a whole set of, with the problems the release has? Do I want to say "Hey, sound effects are fine, I like Knight of Skeleton and manga mayhem to the extreme"? In my case, I dunno. I get so anal and perfectionist about these kinds of things that Freud would have a field day with me. I like things to be kept as close to their original form as possible, so there are a lot of things in any manga release that are potential deal breakers for me. But, the releases overall have improved. I'm currently on the fence regarding picking up the newer ones with the added sound effects.

Sorry for the crazy long post. :troll:
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Walter said:
You won't be helping Berserk by black listing the series because of this supeficial change, you know.

True.

TheSkyTraveller said:
On the other hand, there's the matter of principal. Buying something sends the message to a company that you like what they're doing, and that they should keep doing it. I'm sure that customer comments are taken into consideration, but the biggest consideration for any company is money, and money talks. If everyone keeps buying something they're not entirely happy with, they'll still get something they're not entirely happy with.

My thinking was more along these lines.  I guess I figured that if enough people stopped buying the manga because of this, that Dark Horse might stop this whole translated SFX business.  It would take a lot of people to do that, though, and I guess you would run the risk of DH dropping the series altogether if enough people quit buying it, and I certainly don't want that to happen.  I dunno...I'm kinda torn on the issue...I guess another part of it is if DH does re-release Vol. 12 without translated SFX, I don't want to have to buy the volume twice (especially with the price and me being, for lack of a better word, poor), if I pick up the one that's out right now.  I dunno...I guess I'm still deciding what to do about it.  I could always buy the earlier volumes of the original Japanese ones (which I'm probably gonna end up doing anyway one of these days).  Ah well, I guess I'll wait to see what Chris has to say on the matter.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Rhombaad said:
I guess I figured that if enough people stopped buying the manga because of this, that Dark Horse might stop this whole translated SFX business.
Keep dreaming :guts: Volumes 12 and 13 will be bought heavily regardless of sound effects nonsense because of the critical events in them.

I could always buy the earlier volumes of the original Japanese ones (which I'm probably gonna end up doing anyway one of these days). Ah well, I guess I'll wait to see what Chris has to say on the matter.
Yeah, for this particular issue, it doesn't matter to me. I'm buying them regardless, because I value the translations. The visuals aren't as important, since my japanese volumes will always have better quality because they aren't 2nd generation.

Anyway, I too am anxious to hear what Chris has to say on the subject.
 
I'm probably in the minority here but I actually like the SFX translated where they are. I can't say that I wouldnt like them just as much in appendix form because I couldn't know unless I saw it that way.

Most of the translations are actual translations in volume 12. There are some that are translated into "puka" (as mentioned on the last page) but there are many that say "twinge" and "grip" and the like.

Personally I always had a habit of ignoring and looking past the sound effects when I couldn't read & understand them. Having them translated adds a new audio sensory touch to berserk for me.

When I read berserk I always imagine the characters voices speaking thier lines but other sounds never entered my thought process. For me and my unique berserk experience, observing the suond effects and understanding them adds another layer of realism that draws me in even more.

I also didn't find them to be distracting to the artwork when I read through Dark Horse's volume 12.

EDIT: Looking back through Volume 12 it seems they do put some translations in the gutter. The scene on pg 203 where caska, pippin, corkus, and judeau are branded places sound effects in the gutters where there is room for them.
Other sound effects on that same pare are placed in the artwork.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
BayJumper said:
You know, with those captions it's not like you're missing out on chunks and chunks of artwork.

You miss on artwork nevertheless. And in later volumes it could be a problem in certain scenes. You have your opinion, fine, but please don't start telling other people what they should mind or not.

BayJumper said:
Besides, we ain't the only fans of Berserk you know.

But this is our forum and we're talking about our opinions. I don't think that's too hard to understand.

BayJumper said:
Let me tell ya, if the series was licensed by a bastard manga company *cough* Viz Media *cough*, apart from the usual severe censorship and editing that we've come to expect from those fuckers

That's irrelevant... And please don't start name-calling or comparing publishing companies, we're just talking about what we would like Dark Horse to improve in their releases, not anything else.

That being said, while Dark Horse's releases still have defaults, they're much better than what some publishers are doing around the world. Sure, the printing and paper quality could be better, however they've already improved it a lot since the first printing of volume 1. The summaries at the back aren't of the better taste and don't represent Berserk at all, they're misleading, but these are just summaries, nothing they can't fix (by removing them altogether). Then you have the little spell check and translation problems. Well these would require an added effort from the concerned parties (Digital Manga I guess?) and a reprinting for earlier volumes, but let me tell you that overall, they've been doing a better job than say the Italian, German or French editions on that particular aspect.

I think there are people at Dark Horse doing genuine efforts to adapt Berserk correctly, so while they're not doing a perfect job, I don't think it's that bad overall. And that's coming from the most picky person there is as far as Berserk goes, sorry to the other pretendants to the title. It's just a matter of being realistic here. The volumes aren't flipped, they aren't censored, the translations are mostly decent, the release rate has been improved, etc. It's good to have high standards and to voice our disapproval, but let's not go overboard and decide to stop buying the volumes at the slightest problem there is. That goes to those that don't buy the Japanese volumes in particular. Sorry to say it guys, but you're already late in paying Miura for his work if you're a member of this site and aren't buying the Japanese volumes, so pretty much nothing is an excuse not to buy the US version.

The sound effects being on the art is a deal breaker to many people (and not to some others, Jaze is giving us another view on things for example), we're voicing our discontentment on the matter, good. Let's send letters, let's protest, let's push for them to change it (I sure hope they will), fine really. We don't have to settle for something we don't like of course, but let's not lose perspective on things either. Should have they asked fans what they wanted and what they thought before doing it? Probably. Should this be enough of a reason for fans not owing any version of the manga yet not to buy it? I don't think so.
 
Alright Aazealh, I get you,
Let's talk about something else then. How 'bout the diiferences between the each volume descriptions that appear on the dustjacket flaps that're on the original Japanese tankouban, and the dumbass ones that appear on the back of the English releases (ex from vol 3: "If you're looking for graphic fiction to take home to Grandma, this ain't it - unless Granny smokes cigars and rides a Harley!"), urgh! Now why would DH would want to create such a goofy description for a series of such magnitude like Berserk? What the hell is prompting DH to put up shit like this? It sounds like something that came right off of those old-ass and cheesy X-Men or Justice League comics. No wait, scratch that. Even those comics had (for most part) pretty informative and well-written descriptions on their backs. Now at the same time, at the flaps of the dustjacket covers of my tankouban collections, I doubt that there's such a thing. While I read those text fan-translations of the Japanese volumes, they only contained the dialogue translations and that's it. So I've been wondering, just how different is the each volume description on the Dark Horse releases from the original Japanese books' descriptions? I know that this issue was being covered earlier in this topic, but it was left out in the favor of that "SFX translations" one.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
BayJumper said:
the original Japanese tankouban

It's "tankoubon."

BayJumper said:
Now why would DH would want to create such a goofy description for a series of such magnitude like Berserk?

Because somewhere, someone has bad taste? Or is mistaken about the targeted audience? Or is trying to bring people who these summaries would interest into Berserk? I think all that matters is that the fans don't like it.

BayJumper said:
So I've been wondering, just how different is the each volume description on the Dark Horse releases from the original Japanese books' descriptions?

The two are completely unrelated, that's how different. And actually, there's no text on the backcover of these Japanese volumes, just an image of Puck. The summaries are on an inside flap, and they're about the story.

Backcover.jpg
 

Uriel

This journey isn't ov--AARGH!
All this talk is crazy. Buy the books people and do your best to ignore them. Sure, I'm not entirely chuffed about it, but I own the series in it's original form anyway and I can tell you it's not a MAJOR difference. Would I prefer if untranslated? Probably. But I'd also like my Blade of the Immortal in it's original format too -- but that ain't gonna happen now is it, kids?

Whoo. I can't believe talk of SFX translation is being discussed just as much/more than the events of Volume 12 :judo:
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Uriel said:
Whoo. I can't believe talk of SFX translation is being discussed just as much/more than the events of Volume 12 :judo:

Theres a whole 'nother thread for that.

I think keeping this thread relevant to the way DH releases the volumes is better here, while the other thread can discuss the volumes' content.

Uriel said:
All this talk is crazy. Buy the books people and do your best to ignore them. Sure, I'm not entirely chuffed about it, but I own the series in it's original form anyway and I can tell you it's not a MAJOR difference. Would I prefer if untranslated? Probably. But I'd also like my Blade of the Immortal in it's original format too -- but that ain't gonna happen now is it, kids?

I'm not gettin' your argument here. If you prefer them untranslated then why not buy the originals and be done with it? My only real argument here is DH needs to do something that makes my re-buying of the manga somehow appealing. The minor differences you point out that lessen the quality don't do that.
And what better way to voice complaints about the way the releases are handled than to not support them financially?

Well, I can see i've beaten that dead horse enough so I'm done with that unless anything new comes up. :serpico:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
CnC said:
I think keeping this thread relevant to the way DH releases the volumes is better here, while the other thread can discuss the volumes' content.

Yes, exactly. That's why both exist in the first place.

CnC said:
If you prefer them untranslated then why not buy the originals and be done with it?

I think he means the SFX untranslated, not the whole manga. But then again I think people do want them translated, just anywhere but on the art. It's a legitimate desire IMHO.
 

Uriel

This journey isn't ov--AARGH!
CnC said:
If you prefer them untranslated then why not buy the originals and be done with it?

  • Aazealh said:
    I think he means the SFX untranslated, not the whole manga.
Bingo. Sorry, CnC. I should have clarified that in my original post :griff:
 
S

smoke

Guest
I'm not liking the sound effects translations at all. They're more distracting than anything.

*votes for index rather than textbox superimposing*
 

Scorpio

Courtesy of Grail's doodling.
I went ahead and emailed Chris Warner about my concerns on the topic of the translations. This what I wrote:

I just wanted to express concern over Darkhorse Manga's decision to put translated sound effects into the new Berserk manga release. As a great fan of Miura's vast artistic talent, it bothers me that many of the translated sound effects cover up parts of his work. I will admit that the boxes are small and usually well placed to minimize coverage, but I would suggest other ways to go about it. Such as maybe an appendix, or putting all the translations inbetween panels in the white space.

And I also wanted to ask if the translations would be taken out for future reprints? I plan to buy vol.12 anyway, but if there were any plans to take out the boxes, I would hold out until then.

Thanks for listening to fans, as I know you visit the skullknight.net forums on occasion and are open to feedback. Overall, you guys do a great job and I look forward to every release. I just think in this particular area you could do better. Thanks again.


This was his response:
We've gotten lots of requests for adding translated sound effects to Berserk, but different people prefer this be done in different ways, and we just can't please everybody. Reading sound effects from appendixes interrupts the flow of the reading experience and adds extra pages and higher printing costs to the book. As for using only white space between panels, in Berserk particularly there simply isn't enough of it for the amount of effects, and when text gets crammed into gutters, the pages can apprear crowded, not to mention the problems we encounter when the only available gutter space has to be used for panels above and below the gutter (this happens a lot more than you'd think), which just ends up a total mess.The small, captioned effects are, in my opinion, the least intrusive method of showing the FX translations. We considered all options, and I feel we've come up with the best compromise. Sorry it isn't to your liking, and I hope you'll try to get used to it and stick around with us.

Obviously not the answer many of us were looking for, but after reading his reply I can at least respect their decision and perhaps hope for a revision in the future.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Scorpio, welcome to SK.net and thank you for posting this information.

Chris Warner's reply doesn't surprise me, it's what I would have expected. Though asking if you should hold out for a reprint was a bit ingenuous as no one in their right mind would tell you to do so, even if they were actually planning to change it.

What I'd reply to his arguments though is that when a dozen of core readers that are guaranteed to follow the manga till the end are already telling me they plan on putting the purchase of volume 12 on hold (and that's just on a personal scale), I'm not sure the people pleased by having translations on the art are worth the extra effort. Especially since they bought 11 volumes that didn't have it already, so it's not like they wouldn't buy the rest if that was changed. Also, while the translations might not be very intrusive (and that depends on who you ask, believe me) in their current form, they still are no matter what (something an appendix would completely resolve). Now it's true that reading the sound effects from an appendix breaks the flow of the reading experience if you do it constantly, but at the same time it's more there as a reference for those interested than anything else, hence the appendix. It's also a compromise, let's be clear, but the best one by far in the opinion of quite a bit of people.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Its nice to get his take on this. Thanks Scorpio.

And an additional thanks for putting thought into your letter, it's very professional.

But anyways, his reasoning is deeply flawed (to me). I've never once, in ANY of the manga I've read (translated or not) stopped reading and thought I HAD to know what a sound effect meant.

Interrupts the flow of the reading experience?!
The sfx in Japanese manga (Berserk is no exception) are usually so integrated with the artwork that their intended effect is almost understood with _no_ prior knowledge of katakana. And never once while reading a comic of any kind thought that the narrative (reading experience) was greatly effected by the translation of the sound effect ("Wait! Did batman just punch that guy with a 'POW' or a 'SOK'!? This changes everything!") If anything the inclusion of the small boxes to cover up the artwork "interrupt the flow of the reading experience" more than any of the options you've listed.

Sorry but its bad enough that the ridiculously juvenile summaries make me feel guilty for owning these and being over the age of 12. But now to have the art covered (in any way) lessens its value and interrupts the "viewing experience".

No Deal.

And sorry for not having the time to better structure this little rant. I'm done :)
 

Scorpio

Courtesy of Grail's doodling.
I'll think about how I'll respond back, and I'll definetly incorperate some of the points you guys made, as I share a similar view. But also, if they have been swayed by reader mail to put the translations in, they could probably be swayed by mail from readers against it. Especially if it is from the hardcore fans such as those on this site.

Aaz: Well, I said I would be willing to hold out to show that it was a factor that held a lot of weight with me, but at the same time I wanted to give the impression that I was certainly not going to boycot the series over it. It was probably a little too forward, but I hope the point got across.

CnC: Thanks for the compliment on the letter.

[edit] And thanks for the welcome, I read through the forums fairly often but I never really had a whole lot to say until now
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Scorpio said:
But also, if they have been swayed by reader mail to put the translations in, they could probably be swayed by mail from readers against it. Especially if it is from the hardcore fans such as those on this site.

I know that some members have sent emails already. Sending more would be a good idea I guess, if only for future releases. I've also been thinking about creating a poll on the topic.

Scorpio said:
Well, I said I would be willing to hold out to show that it was a factor that held a lot of weight with me, but at the same time I wanted to give the impression that I was certainly not going to boycot the series over it. It was probably a little too forward, but I hope the point got across.

Yeah I know, and it's a creditable intention, I just found the way you worded it funny because a bit ingenuous. I'm sure your point got across anyway, don't worry; and CnC is right in that your email was well written.
 
After reading my copy of DH release of vol 12, I could see that almost all the SFX are placed on the panels in an un-obtrusive manner. In other words, they're on the "neutral" areas of the artwork, where there's nothing happening. So you're not missing out on anything. Now tell me, throughout all those years of reading Berserk, have you ever (at least once) got confused from reading the Japanese SFX, and just wanted to know what it means but couldn't, 'cause you don't know Japanese? It happened to me, and I'm sure to at least some of you. Now just for a second, ignore this "SFX captions covering up the art" crap and only concentrate on the fact that FINALLY the SFX is being translated, so you can enjoy Berserk in its full aspect. The fact is, Dark Horse is actually making a progress with inclusion of the SFX subtitles. Yeah, maybe a bit shaky one, but it's a progress nevertheless. And THAT is something that we can acknowledge. You know, when I sat down and read DH Berserk release of vol 12, for the first time in 2 1/2 years (since I started reading the DH Berserk manga), I was able to read the story and the action at the same time, without trying to guess what each and every one of those katakana SFX's meanings. And while I was worried about how those English SFX subs would get in the way of the artwork, after I got my vol 12 GN, to my (pleasant) surprise, there was no blunt obtrusions of artwork. All the subs read smoothly, with no problems whatsoever.
If you're holding out from buying vol12 of English release, I'd like to say that there's nothing wrong with those SFX subs. So buy it, you won't regret it.
 
Top Bottom