Author Topic: Episode 278  (Read 51715 times)

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Offline vlad

Re: Episode 278
« Reply #225 on: September 01, 2006, 07:28:21 PM »
I know, I was merely exploring all possibilities. You are correct to point out Sonia's attitude at the time plus the fact that she had another mission to attend to. As far as the premonition goes, Zodd figured out who she was hintting at, but I doubt he ran straight to Griffith all *Teacher, teacher*-like. Anyway, as I said it's just a possibility, though not a very likely one for that matter.

Offline Judo

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #226 on: September 02, 2006, 02:22:31 PM »
As far as the premonition goes, Zodd figured out who she was hintting at, but I doubt he ran straight to Griffith all *Teacher, teacher*-like.

Since he was so surprised to see Guts, I doubt that he had figured out the meaning of Sonias prophecy.
He also said "I would've never expected to meet you here" himself.
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Taking the audience to a jungian journey into the collective unconscious by using the shadow as a metaphor for the primal self that gets repressed by the modern persona... and also by using an underground setting and labyrinth office design to represent both: the depths of the psyche and the dungeon-like isolation of our increasingly mechanistic society which prevents people from finding satisfying work or meaningful connections with others.

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #227 on: September 02, 2006, 06:43:14 PM »
It's lovely to see these small, subtle moments dissected with the precision of a chainsaw.

At least we know which eye Guts sees out of... maybe.

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #228 on: September 05, 2006, 07:27:10 AM »
It's lovely to see these small, subtle moments dissected with the precision of a chainsaw.

Very well put; sometimes, people just need to relax and enjoy the grand, sweeping epic for what it is.
The cold season drifts over the land.
They all huddle in the brown corners.
Some would settle for less.
The castles were all empty, asleep
Long awaiting their King.
Beckoning round the bend.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #229 on: September 06, 2006, 04:08:15 AM »
Well, look what we have here! The lazy man's post, coming 3 weeks late and probably badly redundant. Apologies in advance for the rambling quotefest guys, I just didn't want to succumb to my own procrastination. The thread's already dead anyway and 279 is upon us, so let this be the coup de grāce. No need for anybody to reply to it.

I am curious to see if the voyage will be a clean cut affair with few to no hitches, or if it'll become The Odyssey.

I don't think it will truly become something akin to the Odyssey. The way I see it, the trip will be a time for some rest and reflexion on everybody's part, especially since their journey will be coming to an end (and there isn't a lot of things to do on a ship anyway). Some character development and relationship evolutions are likely to occur to me (especially with the return of Azan, plus Roderick and Magnifico's prolonged interaction with the group). I do think there will be some action however, maybe a ghost ship like Walter said or a big storm, or various magical creatures that would roam in waters near Elfhelm, linked to the astral world. Guts being severely wounded, I wonder if it won't be an opportunity for the others to shine in defending the ship. So to answer your question, I'd go for a mostly calm voyage with a few hitches.

Only the Daka and Pishacha are forced to commit suicide so that they cannot fall into the hands of the enemy.

There are human troops... we could see soldiers on Daibas Ship

To be exact, the Kushan casters are ordered to kill the remaining Daka and Pishacha, they're not committing suicide. Also, while there's a few human soldiers on the ship as well as some slaves to row, that doesn't mean soldiers took part in the attack. We haven't seen any in the streets, so I think they were left to guard and man the ship. There are probably some casters still left in the city, but they're not capable of doing anything save for controlling supernatural troops as far as we know, so they're useless. That being said, there's still this mysterious land general that could arrive, and the last YA (#17, without Berserk) announced that there would be a big battle between the Hawks and the Kushans, so that confirms what we (I, at least) thought. Not to mention that Miura also recently hinted at a big army making an appearance.

it would be logical that the bond with the Astral would be stronger on the open seas...

Actually, not necessarily. The effect on Guts was very strong on the beach, I don't see how being in the middle of the ocean instead of at its shore could change anything to what happened to him. And apart from the armor, the ocean in itself will probably not have a huge impact on the group.

Maybe Beast would materialize  :chomp: , or Moonlight Child encounter again (for it seems attracted to the Ocean), or something even more odd (like old Hawks talking to Guts in a dream, or something like that....). So just to point out that I don't think it would be a " long and monotonous Ocean journey "

I doubt the Beast will materialize (appearing to Guts like it's done in the past however, that I could see), nor the Moonlight Boy appear. Even apart from what CnC said, you guys seem to forget about all the peculiar events on the beach. Like how Zodd was there, and how the boy went away by mysteriously climbing on the cliff (he didn't return to the water, rather he went the opposite direction). I won't outright say he's related to Griffith, but... Yeah. Because we first saw him with his feet in the water doesn't mean he spawned from the sea, nor that he's affiliated with it. As a matter of fact, he might have just been waiting for Casca there. Sure, it's possible that places where the connexion between the astral and material worlds is strong are favorable to his appearance, but that's speculation at best. Remember what his name is, too. Not the Ocean Boy. The moon as a this kind of factor seems a more likely possibility right now.

The dead Hawks appearing to Guts while at sea is an interesting idea, I've thought about him having an experience like this in Elfhelm or during some kind of mystical introspection to come face to face with the Beast. That subject has already been touched upon in the PS2 game though, so I'm not sure Miura intends to take things that far in the manga. Plus the Hawks should be part of the Vortex of Souls, and thus are probably unable to do anything at all. They might not even have any individuality left, having all "become one." As for the long and monotonous journey, it will be no matter what. Even if they have like 10 encounters (which is a lot), there will still be weeks, probably months of plain sailing. That's the reality of sea trips. Of course, we won't be seeing it (thanks to a convenient time ellipsis like when Guts was wounded after the fight at Flora's mansion, plus some time spent on Griffith's side).

we know Ganishka has dangerous creatures on his side residing in the water, no doubt he is pissed about losing the battle and probably up for a bit of revenge.

Not sure he'll have time to waste with Guts. His naval troops won't be too much to deal with his main enemies. Pursuing a ship that's heading for an unknown location with on its board people that have already slaughtered his troops once doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Especially since he knows that these guys have no interest in him and just fought him because they were attacked.

In addition Skully has told Guts if he continues on his journey he will come across more Apostles under Griffith. He may have meant further into the journey, but this sea traveling seems like a big part of the adventure, so it would be far from a surprise to see any Apostles as they travel by sea.

As Walter said, he's already met Griffith's apostles. Like for Ganishka, I don't think Griffith will have time to waste sending troops against a ship in the middle of the sea, and I'm not even sure he could. Apostles are monsters but they're still primarily based on humans. It's probable only few could survive in the middle of the ocean by themselves (the sea based ones? And even then that's not sure). Besides, he's still in denial toward Guts, not to mention it's mommy and daddy's boat we're talking about here. Nothing says he wants to kill them, otherwise he could (and should) do it right now, as they're still near the coast. It'd be stupid to wait.

the Dark Hawk Prophecy

Just a slight correction: it's the Hawk (or Falcon) of Darkness, not the Dark Hawk. There's a difference, and it's important to use correct terms to talk about it. Just like the Hawk of Light and the White Hawk don't refer to the same thing.

With her knowledge of the prophecy coupled with the re-intorduction of Azan, and potentially his knowledge of a different perspective of the prophecy could potentially equate to the revealing of more about it possibly pointing towards a hint at something that lay in wait for them down the road.  So with what Farnese had said about the painting and how Guts laying out with the sun rising resembling said painting it could be the fore-shadowing of something related to the prophecy

I'm afraid that painting stuff is irrelevant here man, like you've been told. I'd also like to stress what Walter said about the fact Schierke most likely knows more about the prophecy than Farnese, Serpico or Azan, and certainly understands it better than them. And really, what is there more to say about the prophecy? It's not like it's a great mystery over which we ponder day and night. It basically says that Femto is the Hawk of Darkness and that he's a bad guy, that'll be the king of humans and the master of the apostles, plus some hints at where to look for him. That's really all there is to it. So unless there are more paragraphs that we don't know of (which I don't think is likely), the matter's been settled long ago (at least for us readers).

Griffith while in his current physical form doesn't have all his GodHand powers - or does he?!?

Who can precisely tell? But I think it's clear he's got a lot of power and hasn't shown a tenth of what he can do. Schierke comments on how dangerous it is to approach him in her astral form in volume 22, because of the monstrous field of power surrounding him. We know that he can't be harmed by normal means, and he can take up the form of the Hawk of Light, which appeared in the dreams of everybody in Midland and can really affect people (see Zodd or the former king of Midland). And the souls of his dead soldiers gathered around him in volume 23. That's got to count for something. And while the question of whether he's stronger, equally strong, or weaker than the other God Hand members can't be answered for now, keep in mind that being incarnated wasn't a demotion. He's truly unique in the world now like "Griffith No More!" said, and even though he's got limits, I don't expect him to be resouceless, far from it. Remember how the Moonlight Boy dealt with Guts? Whoops, here I go again using unproven connexions. :void:

I don't think that would do good to get people under his name, including the Holy Iron Chain Knight's and their respective group.

Hmm, the H.I.C.K. are dead man. I imagine you just meant the Holy See. :guts:

I agree. Even though it's obviously Azan, we can never be completely sure it's him with the mask on. Even if it's not for the reader to be surprised, it could simply be to create shock and confusion for the characters after seeing a stumpy masked man in the boat.

Of course we can be sure it's him. I'm ready to bet anything you want on it. Everything hints at him, his actions, his armor, his weapon, his manner of speech, etc. There's zero doubt. And while it'll surely be a surprise for the characters, some of them have already seen him once. Puck, Isidro and Schierke were on the pier with him so it's going to be more of a "you again!" factor for them, with only some surprise after Isidro finds out it's Azan and he's introduced to Schierke. Add to this that Puck seemed to half-recognize him at the time, and that Guts was nearby watching the scene too. I think the biggest surprise will be for Farnese and Serpico, his former comrades. In any case, the fact he's been starving and keeping a very low profile is related to what happened after he went his own way in volume 21, I doubt it's merely to surprise the readers/characters.

Anyone else think those pirates that azan chased away during the brief arc with sonja and schierke will make a return? it would be a good way for Azan to reintroduce himself.

Who knows about the pirates. But Azan will introduce himself soon enough; he'll probably wake up as the band gets on the ship. Doesn't need them.

the ability to apparently make people do what he wants regardless of their own will (example .... Mule).

It's a tad more subtle than that. He didn't force Mule to do his bidding, rather Mule felt compelled to pledge his sword to him without knowing why. It's not mind-control or anything like that, and in fact we don't even know if Griffith did it consciously or if it just happened because of his overwhelming charisma, or Causality, etc.

As the skullknight said. There isnt a single being in the living world who can challenge him. Its not like the holy see can do much about it even if they gave Griffith the finger. SO i just have to wonder why he does it at all? better yet why does he even need the army?

Keep in mind "in this world" excludes people that are in the Interstice, so SK, Guts, magic users, Ganishka & co. He's not completely invincible. Concerning the Holy See alliance, well they could refuse to ally with him or even fight him. He'd lose troops and resources, albeit probably few, and most importantly it would soil his image, something which he apparently doesn't want. We don't know what his goals are so let's not assume too much here. Same for the army, why not have one? Do you think he should rather kill 50,000 soldiers himself, single handedly? Let's be reasonable.

Also, Elfhelm is on an island called Skellig.  They may have to do some exploring on the islane before they find the uh, town? city? village? ... hovel? they're looking for.  I doubt they'll see elves flying around the island from a distance  :guts:

That's an interesting idea, the exploration and all, but to be honest I don't expect them to have trouble finding Elfhelm itself once they arrive on the island.

Yeah for shure we are all used to see Guts giving up his fight, that's right he has always fainted right in the middle :)

Boy oh boy, what a comely fellow. Calling people jerks while being ridiculously wrong, and trying to be sarcastic while missing every point of the discussion. I think you should put a little more effort into your post in the future sir, else they might not be around long enough for people to reply to them. Now, your nonsense was already addressed in details, admittedly more than what it's worth, but I'll still comment on a few things. [Just to confirm: his right eye didn't open, it's just the left that closed as he lost consciousness and his head rolled on the side. Maybe you should open your eyes or something...]

It's the first time ever (2nd with the fight at Flora's ?) that Guts cancels/leaves/forfeit  a fight... Knowing that Griffith was here

How about the end of volume 21? You know, when Guts had Griffith naked in front of him, and didn't attack him because of Casca? Yeah, right. It's been a big theme of the manga over the past ten volumes that Guts would have to choose between protecting Casca and fighting to get his revenge against Griffith. He has systematically chosen Casca since volume 17, no reason for it to change now.

(he has already took much harder hit in the past withtout armor/beast -maybe he is getting old..)

No, he's not taken "much harder hits" in the past. He's at an all-time low right now. He's been badly wounded astrally and physically for a month, he's exhausted, he's lost weight, wearing the armor is taking its toll on him, and the recent fights have seen him receiving even more damage, first from a Makara which severely punctured his chest, then electrocuted to quasi-death by Ganishka. He fainted because his condition is worse than ever before. I don't think you know what you're talking about if you think otherwise.

So yes it is deeper because he gave up chasing Griffith EVEN with Griff just around...

No, it's not. You fail. Besides, Serpico had to intervene to stop him and Guts didn't have any strength left and knew it, doesn't that suffice you? It should.

We should speculate on this because without Guts the neo-hawks would not have managed to get rid of the pisacha, mainly because they would not have managed to defeat Ganishka

That's just your assumption. Zodd couldn't defeat Ganishka alone, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have been able to do anything at all against him. And Guts couldn't possibly defeat Ganishka without Zodd, so that hardly makes him stronger than Griffith's lieutenants. If anything, the DS and Schierke were the keys to success here, not Guts. It was simply good team work.

Assuming Griffith knows this (and obviously he knows it or he is not Griffith..), he regained some worth upon his eyes. Now it's true that we have to wait until Griffith acts to see if it was a 'prey-look' or something else...

Once again, you're just assuming things here. Griffith's look is very calm in that panel, I don't see any aggressiveness in it. What he may be thinking is impossible to know just from that scene. And I'll repeat something I often say: don't underestimate the importance of the child's feelings within him.

Well, Sonia met with Schierke and even recognised her to be a witch. As far as Guts' presence is concerned she hinted at it through that premonition she gave to Zodd just before he left for battle.

She didn't tell anybody about Schierke being a witch as far as we know. And she didn't tell Zodd about Guts directly as Judo pointed out, neither did she seem to know who was concerned herself. It was relatively vague from the characters' point of view.

Offline Uriel

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #230 on: September 06, 2006, 10:49:03 AM »
Haha, you finally got round to it, eh? :serpico:

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #231 on: September 06, 2006, 12:17:48 PM »
Haha, you finally got round to it, eh? :serpico:

No way, look what he says to Lith...

Reply coming later, no time right now.

See, all that was just Aaz procrastinating! =)

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #232 on: September 06, 2006, 01:40:36 PM »
Haha, you finally got round to it, eh? :serpico:

Yep, almost. Some small part is left as Griff pointed out, but I already feel better having posted it. :guts:

Offline xbigvmanx

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #233 on: September 10, 2006, 06:09:47 PM »
I wonder if Guts and company were never present in Vritannis do you guys think  Zodd and company would have been capable in handling Ganishka's forces on their own?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #234 on: September 10, 2006, 07:39:10 PM »
I wonder if Guts and company were never present in Vritannis do you guys think  Zodd and company would have been capable in handling Ganishka's forces on their own?

They would have had no problem dealing with the Daka and Pishacha, as a matter of fact they took out quite a bit of them from what we've seen. The Makara would have been tougher but still no match for apostles, especially with Zodd leading them. Daiba and the Kundalini on the other hand were on another level so a few apostles would have probably died, but once again I don't think they could have held back 20 apostles including Zodd.

The only real unknown is Ganishka himself in his fog form, since he killed a lot of them and severely damaged the others. They might have been forced to retreat (probably would have?) if Guts and Schierke hadn't been there.

Offline xbigvmanx

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2006, 09:15:07 PM »
Daiba and the Kundalini on the other hand were on another level so a few apostles would have probably died, but once again I don't think they could have held back 20 apostles including Zodd.

Zodd and company would definitely have a tougher time with Daiba and the Kundalini. I would imagine Daiba would use his powers to push Zodd and company back and allow the Kundalini to shoot its powerful "water beam".  Zodd  would have to use his apostles as guinea pigs to distract Daiba in order to get to the Kundalini snake or Daiba.

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Re: Episode 278
« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2006, 09:26:55 PM »
I would imagine Daiba would use his powers to push Zodd and company back and allow the Kundalini to shoot its powerful "water beam".

Daiba's so-called powers were just him borrowing the Kundalini's abilities in the fact place, and Zodd and the others being airborne, I don't think his water columns would have done much against them. Not to mention that the giant water snake wouldn't have been a problem for Zodd, I'm sure he could have just crashed through it, killing both the snake and Daiba. I could see some apostles being killed by the water beam, but overall I don't think they would have had enough time to do too much damage.