The Walking Dead

Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Oburi said:
Because he didn't know he was going be to be rescued? For all he knew he was going to be stuck up there until those zombies broke through the door.
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Such rationalizations will only make my critique's sharper and crankier.
I thought it went without saying that he could have rescued himself by cutting through the cuffs, which he even mentioned before he and the black guy conveniently forgot all about it when the key got dropped (another scenario that wasn't such hot writing either). Maybe they'll explain why later, but I haven't seen a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Every episode has been saddled with these poorly contrived setups and lazy writing that adversely affects the rest of the show, especially the believability of the characters, as well as my investment and enjoyment. I didn't think this payoff was worth the effort anyway since it was about the most obvious modern cliche they could toss in there.
Where I watched it, the room derisively murmured "Saw" at the ending, though I'm more old school and was thinking "Mad Max" all the way. =)
 
Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
About the end of the episode
What I want to know is, why didn't he cut off his thumb or the best idea BREAK his thumb? You could slide them off at any one of those times.

Griffith said:
I thought it went without saying that he could have rescued himself by cutting through the cuffs, which he even mentioned before he and the black guy conveniently forgot all about it when the key got dropped (another scenario that wasn't such hot writing either). Maybe they'll explain why later, but I haven't seen a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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There's nothing in the show to back it up, but I think it's safe to assume Murrel sawed off his hand because there's less chances of it breaking the blade. You have to keep in mind there's a big difference between them having that conversation when it was just them, and Murrel sitting up on the roof with the zombies trying to push through the door.
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Olivier Hague said:
I guess putting the chains back on that door wasn't just pointless but also pretty difficult, with just one hand.
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I actually took it that he found another way off the roof. Not that he'd somehow broken through the chains and put them back. That just sounds stupid.
And I'm pretty sure he went for his hand because he's fucking insane. That's ... kind of what made it interesting to me. And there's a strong chance he's already a zombie anyway.

Anyway, again, I'm not going to defend the quality of the show. I was the first to criticize it. I just enjoyed the hook at the end of the episode and look forward to seeing that subplot run its course.

Again I'll reiterate, anyone that complains about the show, but is intrigued by the core of what's here, you should be reading the comics.
 
Olivier_Hague

Olivier_Hague

Walter said:
I actually took it that he found another way off the roof. Not that he'd somehow broken through the chains and put them back. That just sounds stupid.
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(That was the joke...)
I'm just wondering how he disappeared (everybody seemed pretty sure that door was the only way for the zombies to get on the roof, so what other way would there be to get off the roof? did he pull a Die Hard right after severing his own hand?). And where all those zombies went.
I guess the next episode might have a decent explanation as to how situation A turned into situation B after all, but considering the contrived lengths the show went to in order to get to situation A in the first place, I must say I'm a bit skeptical...
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Olivier Hague said:
(That was the joke...)
I'm just wondering how he disappeared (everybody seemed pretty sure that door was the only way for the zombies to get on the roof, so what other way would there be to get off the roof? did he pull a Die Hard right after severing his own hand?). And where all those zombies went.
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I'm not bothering to speculate because I'm sure they'll come up with something.
"He made that jump?!" Doesn't really matter, either. He's off the roof, and if he were dead, they probably would have established that in this episode instead of leaving us wondering the fate of the character everyone hates.

I guess the next episode might have a decent explanation as to how situation A turned into situation B after all, but considering the contrived lengths the show went to in order to get to situation A in the first place, I must say I'm a bit skeptical...
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Yes, the bag-o-guns with walkie talkies was a completely contrived plot vehicle to get them back to the city. As should already be evident, none of this exists in the comic.

Also, I have to admit, this new, ooey-gooey TV Rick is really getting on my nerves. I felt like Lori must have felt this episode: "Is this really the man I fell in love with?" :casca: I also hope that T-DAWG doesn't turn out to be Tyrese, but I fear at this point that it's pretty conclusive...

While I'm at it, let me plug the comic one more time. The first 8 volumes are collected in this edition for $37: http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Dead-Compendium-One/dp/1607060760/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289930690&sr=8-1-spell There isn't a second edition yet, because there haven't been another 8 volumes yet. The next TPB is vol 13, so itll be another 3 volumes before another edition like this. Just something to keep in mind if you want to have them appear uniform on your bookcase.
 
Oburi

Oburi

All praise Grail
Griffith said:
Such rationalizations will only make my critique's sharper and crankier.
I thought it went without saying that he could have rescued himself by cutting through the cuffs, which he even mentioned before he and the black guy conveniently forgot all about it when the key got dropped (another scenario that wasn't such hot writing either). Maybe they'll explain why later, but I haven't seen a reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Every episode has been saddled with these poorly contrived setups and lazy writing that adversely affects the rest of the show, especially the believability of the characters, as well as my investment and enjoyment. I didn't think this payoff was worth the effort anyway since it was about the most obvious modern cliche they could toss in there.
Where I watched it, the room derisively murmured "Saw" at the ending, though I'm more old school and was thinking "Mad Max" all the way. =)
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:schierke: I think you're right, it's just crankiness at this point.
Personally I thought payoff (being the end when we see that he cut off his own hand) was well worth it. I'm with Walter, I thought it was a great scene and really showed you how fucked up and unstable this guy is. Maybe he really is just that crazy, Rooker sure is playing this character perfectly (Henry, portrait of a serial killer anyone?). And can you really blame the show for reminding YOU of something like Saw? Please, people were cutting their hands off long before Saw. Of all the cliches the show is guilty of using, Saw? No way. That's just you. And to say "saddled with these poorly contrived setups and lazy writing", I can understand that kind of talk in a Lost thread, but really? You think this show is "saddled"?

I don't mean to be a smart ass but seriously, I can't understand why the show is under such harsh criticisms. It's a zombie show on AMC based on a comic, and it's only on episode 3. What's with the magnifying glass? Most of the complaints so far are so ridiculous it gives me a headache to think of what kind of show people would rather see.

Walter said:
I just enjoyed the hook at the end of the episode and look forward to seeing that subplot run its course.
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Yea, it was awesome.
 
Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
About the end of the episode
What I want to know is, why didn't he cut off his thumb or the best idea BREAK his thumb? You could slide them off at any one of those times.
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A great point, that would have been the fastet way out.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
There's nothing in the show to back it up, but I think it's safe to assume Murrel sawed off his hand because there's less chances of it breaking the blade. You have to keep in mind there's a big difference between them having that conversation when it was just them, and Murrel sitting up on the roof with the zombies trying to push through the door.
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I'd still be more concerned about my HAND and how losing it would effect my chances of survival anyway (including just surviving the process). I mean, it's not like what he did was really a quick fix anyway when you consider the physical and pschological roadblocks as opposed to sawing a chain. Anyway, if the saw broke, see your own point above. The problem here is they weren't over thinking this stuff, not the other way around.

Olivier Hague said:
And where all those zombies went.
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To the next scene requiring throngs of zombies, before they're no longer needed and mysteriously disappear.

Walter said:
And I'm pretty sure he went for his hand because he's fucking insane. That's ... kind of what made it interesting to me.
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That's a forgiving interpretation. He was an asshole, but not batshit crazy or incompetently stupid, he was even kind of cunning and charismatic while trying to convince T-Dawg to release him (where he already showed he thought of cutting the cuffs with the saw). I guess we could say he went insane with fear, but... kaman.

Walter said:
Anyway, again, I'm not going to defend the quality of the show. I was the first to criticize it. I just enjoyed the hook at the end of the episode and look forward to seeing that subplot run its course.
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I would guess that he has the bag of guns, but I don't know what good they'd do him in his current condition.

Oburi said:
:schierke: I think you're right, it's just crankiness at this point.
Personally I thought payoff (being the end when we see that he cut off his own hand) was well worth it. I'm with Walter, I thought it was a great scene and really showed you how fucked up and unstable this guy is. Maybe he really is just that crazy, Rooker sure is playing this character perfectly (Henry, portrait of a serial killer anyone?). And can you really blame the show for reminding YOU of something like Saw? Please, people were cutting their hands off long before Saw. Of all the cliches the show is guilty of using, Saw? No way. That's just you. And to say "saddled with these poorly contrived setups and lazy writing", I can understand that kind of talk in a Lost thread, but really? You think this show is "saddled"?
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I said it was others making that reference. I don't mean to be a smartass, but apparently your ability to critique my posts isn't any better than your ability to critique the show. Anyway, my criticisms are valid, while your apologies are not. You're also not doing the show a service by lecturing me on how to enjoy just how stock its cliches really are. I would have enjoyed the payoff had it been setup properly, which is what I mean when the show is saddled with contrivances that undermine it. Actually, the basic fuck ups here have me admiring Lost's advanced, graduate-level bullshit. They also did drama better in their sleep, even when just phoning it in. I don't see why I should ignore that here if I was so hard on that show. If you don't care anyway, fine, I was content making this little observation in the beginning, you're the one that couldn't leave it at that.

Oburi said:
I don't mean to be a smart ass but seriously, I can't understand why the show is under such harsh criticisms. It's a zombie show on AMC based on a comic, and it's only on episode 3. What's with the magnifying glass? Most of the complaints so far are so ridiculous it gives me a headache to think of what kind of show people would rather see.
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Just one that makes sense and lives up to its potential. Also, when you say it's just an AMC Zombie show it sounds like you're the one with little respect for it. That's certainly not how they're presenting it, and that's what makes these flaws bothersome at all (we're not talking about something campy like True Blood here). I'm still on the fence with this show, but it sounds like you're in the bag for it now and don't want to hear an unkind word about it (when the other day you were potentially calling it a waste of time, okay).
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Griffith said:
That's a forgiving interpretation. He was an asshole, but not batshit crazy or incompetently stupid, he was even kind of cunning and charismatic while trying to convince T-Dawg to release him (where he already showed he thought of cutting the cuffs with the saw). I guess we could say he went insane with fear, but... kaman.
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I'm referring to the regression of his sanity in this episode, which is implied by the scene where he was talking to himself about his old Army days and enjoying watching a guy spit out his teeth and then staring up at the sun for several moments before breaking down and sobbing on the ground. With the looming zombies, I think his mind just broke.
 
Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Walter said:
I'm referring to the regression of his sanity in this episode, which is implied by the scene where he was talking to himself about his old Army days and enjoying watching a guy spit out his teeth and then staring up at the sun for several moments before breaking down and sobbing on the ground. With the looming zombies, I think his mind just broke.
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You're swaying me, I kind of didn't want him to become some ongoing antagonist but I'm back in "wait and see" mode with what they do with this.
The only thing that would have surprised me is if Merle was actually dead.

Olivier Hague said:
...
Nah.
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:ganishka:
 
Olivier_Hague

Olivier_Hague

How the Walking Dead dealt with it:

Soooo we need this bad guy to be left on the roof, but we also need to give him a way to eventually escape. But at the same time, we need the good guys to be good guys, so they can't just abandon him. They have to try and get him off the roof, and fail.
How do they fail? Maybe the zombies got inside and prevented them from reaching the roof? But if they did, they're going to kill our bad guy, and we can't have that. So, er...
I know! They go there but drop the key down a drain. Tough luck. And then, they have to leave. But how does our bad guy escape, then?
I know! Tools! They had tools, and they forgot them on the roof! But why didn't the bad guy used them before, then?
I know! We could have them drop the tools and the key right before leaving! But in order to have them leave in a hurry, we need to have some kind of impending danger, and our bad guy would be exposed.
I know! They leave some chains on that door!
OK, so it might be a bit contrived, but that's nothing some slow-motion can't solve.
Also, it wouldn't be so cool if the good guys went back to find the chains gone... Let's delay that reveal... Oh, and we find out he actually severed his own hand! Now, that's one hell of a reveal! I'm not sure it makes sense... but chances are viewers won't be sure it doesn't either, so let's do that!


How Lost would have dealt with it:

WhateverHappensDesmondxPenny
*****
Posts: 4578

And how exactly do you know that they didn't try and rescue him? For all you know, they did, but something went wrong, and they dropped the key down a drain or something. Just because we didn't see it happen, that doesn't mean it didn't. It's called an ellipsis, you morons, look it up. Once again, haters would like everything spoon-fed to them... Why don't you go and watch NCIS: Los Angeles or some stupid shit like that, and leave the finer works of literature to intelligent people?

"Boohoo, he's gone from the roof and yet the door is chained, that doesn't make sense, the writers are stupid!"
Of course they're stupid, that's why they make millions off their work and you're here complaining on the internet. Or maybe they're just much smarter than you, did you consider that?
And that doesn't make sense? Sorry, but... do zombies make sense? And yet I don't hear you whine about that. Funny how that works.

As for him cutting his own hand... After all the crazy stuff that's been going on, you still expect those characters to be sane? It's just realistic. Not that I'd expect you to be able to put yourselves in the shoes of those characters. Too complex, huh?

Sheesh.

Anyway, back on topic... When she found out he was still alive? Damn. I was just bawling at that point, and I swear Miss Tiger (my 4 weeks old kitty) was, too!
 
Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
I'm going to go ahead and blame Oburi for bringing up Lost, but after reading that, I'm not so annoyed with our little exchange. Yikes.
 
Olivier_Hague

Olivier_Hague

Basically, I completely agreed with you, Griffith... up to the point where you talked about admiring Lost in comparison. :ganishka:

I guess I just didn't expect contrivances like that only three episodes in...
The main character being the main character, he gets to say "next time, don't let the safety on" to a woman who really should have known how to use a gun at that point (or what was she doing there in the first place?), just like he gets to decide what happens to the van (never mind the fact he's this disoriented new guy who wasn't even around when the world collapsed).
Merle cut off his hand because... he snapped? I realize we barely know the character, but considering the guy survived a zombie apocalypse with his hunter of a brother for a while and volunteered to be part of a dangerous expedition, I'm not sure I'm on board, there... And it's not like the guy was too dumb to realize he could use that saw on the chain instead: he even brought that up last week.
If this were supposed to be some mindless, trashy zombie movie, I wouldn't really have a problem with stuff like that... But that's not how they're selling the show, is it?
 
Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Olivier Hague said:
If this were supposed to be some mindless, trashy zombie movie, I wouldn't really have a problem with stuff like that... But that's not how they're selling the show, is it?
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Yeah, it's being presented like a "Best Picture" candidate, transcendent of the genre and serious business. That's how it also finds itself in no man's land with me, because while it's still a superior production, it hasn't really been great yet save for a few moments in the first episode. I keep waiting for it to hit its stride, but right now it feels more like I'm adjusting my expectations for the show.
 
Ramen4ever

Ramen4ever

Walter said:
I think they made it pretty clear he didn't make the rational decision in what he did... :schierke:
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well yeah. lol
I can hardly wait to see how he got off the roof with one heavily bleeding arm... did he jump, was there a ladder. Why did the zombies leave the stairwell and why wasn't the place overflowing with zombies?. Did Merle make a ruckus and now he's trapped on/in another building that the zombies followed him to? Overall, the questions this episode left me with make me pretty curious to see the next episode.
 
Truder

Truder

"I frown at Griffith's nipples" -Aazealh
man, so many replies on this thread. makes me want to jump into the series too,

just feeling kinda lazy to start a new series, but i guess i will now. :void:
 
Walter

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Truder said:
man, so many replies on this thread. makes me want to jump into the series too,

just feeling kinda lazy to start a new series, but i guess i will now. :void:
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The first season is only going to be 6 episodes, so ... it won't be hard to catch up after the break.
 
Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
Proj2501 said:
MEXICANS!?!? This episode is cliche. Aw, they have good hearts. :schierke:
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What do you expect? They are only living there to protect their family that was abandoned, none of them were actually gang bangers.

So there was another way off the roof, and for whatever reason the alarms never went off at the campsite. Best question, why the fuck wasn't anyone left on guard during the night?

And now I can go sleep.
 
Griffith

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
The saw was too dull to cut through the cuffs! Ok.

I enjoyed this one a lot more, the writing continues to be senseless and sappy, but I've adjusted my expectations so that I can enjoy the ride.

...

... ...

:mozgus:

Still, I'm going to bitch endlessly about it. To whom it may concern, I'm sorry. :iva:

Olivier Hague said:
And where all those zombies went.
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Now we know, and just like I said, it was to the next scene that required a horde of zombies to very randomly show up.

The straight drama on this show is more science fiction than the zombies.
Like that fishing talk horseshit to start off. Blah blah blah forever and the payoff was daddy taught them totally differently because they're so different? Are you kidding me? I am now dumber for having heard that. And was it supposed to make me care that she got ett at the end? Same with the grave digging subplot which was obvious to anyone with half a brain (so our campers are definitely excluded), and the way it wrapped up at the end with that last line was just horridly lame too. Yucky.

Proj2501 said:
MEXICANS!?!? This episode is cliche. Aw, they have good hearts. :schierke:
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Episode title: VATOS! They even managed to play both the stereotypes they employed to extremes, I think Eastbound & Down was less racist this season and they were doing it intentionally (though I am learning valuable lessons about how we aren't so different! :serpico:). Anyway, I still enjoyed it, reminded me of home. After all, I'm sure all the guys behind this show are based in Los Angeles, so they wrote an episode basically set in TV Los Angeles. =)

What the fuck was Rick's plan though exactly, to get killed? The first thing I thought of at their impasse was to offer half the guns, which is what happened anyway, and if those guys actually weren't such hard-asses, we're they really going to leave their buddy with the guys that were going to chop off his feet when they were offering a fair trade? You'd think they'd be relieved rather than needlessly spilling blood and risking the whole place. Again, I didn't think the zombies were going to be the thing that made the most sense on this show.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
What do you expect? They are only living there to protect their family that was abandoned, none of them were actually gang bangers.
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Well, I think his point was it was all a little too cute. Speaking of, everyone on this show is sure cool with having guns pointed in their face.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
Best question, why the fuck wasn't anyone left on guard during the night?
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Nope, best question is
why did they leave the keys in the van? =)
 
Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
I really loved the ending to this episode, but that doesn't make up for the lazy writing and the "oh hey" moments the character's are having.

I'm guessing they want the audience to assume a lot of the things, like assuming the character's took the keys van and Merle hot wired the van, or assuming they never really checked the roof for another exit.

Honestly the camp really bugged me the most with this episode because, in context of the show they just had a zombie wander up there earlier that day and apparently they just brushed it off as not being a big deal. For a group of survivors they really seem to be more clueless than the main character.

Griffith said:
Well, I think his point was it was all a little too cute. Speaking of, everyone on this show is sure cool with having guns pointed in their face
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Eh I didn't mind it, also for people so concerned about being turned or killed by zombies they have little regard with being shot.

Nope, best question is
why did they leave the keys in the van? =)
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Because they didn't want to drop them down any drains.
 
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