Author Topic: 1000 year incarnation ritual  (Read 7681 times)

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Offline Dekant

1000 year incarnation ritual
« on: October 30, 2006, 05:33:47 PM »
Ok, as far as I understand(and searched), every 1000 years, there is a ritual of incarnation, to bring a God Hand member into the ordinary material world. The only person mentioned at all in the searches as far as that 1000 year thing goes is SK . He's mentioned frequently in that time line. (Perhaps Void came to replace him on the GH? Though I am not betting that)

Does this mean that they cycle through GH members? If one is incarnated, as Griffith is, do they replace them? As this ritual happens every 1000 years, I take it this has happened several times. This leads me to believe that the members of the God Hand ARE NOT the original members of The Godhand.

The problem with my cycle members out theory is that Griffith was the newest, and he got incarnated. Could this be just because he had more reason to need a body of flesh?

Slann was able to make an appearance in Qliphoth, but that's simply because of the thinning barrier between worlds, and it is her 'womb" so manifesting a form for herself in a place to connected to her is not surprising.

Looks like the 1000 year ritual happened before, renewing the Godhand. But something must happen to the previous GH, they can't just have beings that powerful roaming about. Awhile ago, I read some speculation that Ganishka may have been a previous GH(we definately ahve nothing in the manga to base this on) But, he is being placed before Griffith. Perhaps that's one way to get rid of the old ones.

Again, I have no idea. I'm just tossing this thing I've been wondering out, in case someone has more updated info, read an interview, or has a similar theory, or different understanding of it.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 05:57:04 PM »
Hey there Dekant, here are some comments on what you said:

The only person mentioned at all in the searches as far as that 1000 year thing goes is SK . He's mentioned frequently in that time line. (Perhaps Void came to replace him on the GH? Though I am not betting that)

Void replacing who? SK? It's pretty far-fetched to imagine that Skull Knight was a member of the God Hand in the past, and it's almost a certitude that it wasn't the case. Gaiseric's time is said to be a thousand years ago though, so that places him around that time. But then again, the oldest member of the current God Hand is only 864 years old.

Does this mean that they cycle through GH members? [...] This leads me to believe that the members of the God Hand ARE NOT the original members of The Godhand.

That's a possibility, although nothing is sure.

If one is incarnated, as Griffith is, do they replace them?

This is where the problem is: it doesn't make sense when put together with the rest. Femto's incarnation started to change the world, its layers are merging. There are wars breaking out, plagues, the world is about to change radically. In fact it's already changing. And there isn't a missing member, as far as we know Griffith is still part of the God Hand, he just has a material body now. He's kind of leading the charge and opening the way for the others for all we know. The God Hand was completed when Femto was born, and now they're executing some kind of sinister plan. This doesn't go well with the idea that God Hand members "die" or are replaced. It could be that they've always failed/been defeated in the past and until now, but that's also relatively unlikely. Anyway, with our current knowledge on the subject we just can't answer these interrogations. We'll need to wait until more is revealed before we can be sure.

Griffith was the newest, and he got incarnated. Could this be just because he had more reason to need a body of flesh?

Yes, that could definitely be the reason. I'd even say it's probably the reason. Not only did he need it more, but he'll probably make better use of it in regard to their collective cause. I doubt there was a lottery to decide who would be incarnated, or that the others are jealous or anything like that.

Slann was able to make an appearance in Qliphoth, but that's simply because of the thinning barrier between worlds, and it is her 'womb" so manifesting a form for herself in a place to connected to her is not surprising.

Well, yeah.

Looks like the 1000 year ritual happened before, renewing the Godhand.

That ritual doesn't renew anything. I mean it just gives one of them a body of flesh. It allows them to exist durably in the material world; it's a promotion, not a demotion. Also, it might have happened before (Gaiseric's capital?), but nothing is sure about that.

Awhile ago, I read some speculation that Ganishka may have been a previous GH(we definately ahve nothing in the manga to base this on) But, he is being placed before Griffith. Perhaps that's one way to get rid of the old ones.

That's just far-fetched, and pretty ludicrous honestly. Ganishka isn't a previous member of the God Hand. He's just an apostle. Really, there's absolutely no reason to think otherwise.

Offline Dekant

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 01:50:12 AM »
Thanks. That's really all I wanted. I thought maybe you heard something else by now via an interview, or a magazine, or a Japanese friend of yours who is a cousin to someone who works on Berserk.

I'm not really trying to sell the idea that Ganishka was a God Hand, or that Skull Knight was either. Those are just the two most likely candidates for having anything to do with it thus far.

Here is where I get the renewing concept. I understand Miura doesn't take things directly from mythology, but it's a Hindu belief that the world, even the Gods need to be renewed every so often. I believe aspects of this also got carried over to Buddhism. Unlike the Elemental Kings, who to me, seem far less individualized than the God Hand, much more Occidental than the general abilities shown by the Godhand and Apostles till now. But I'm getting off track.

Miura clearly has some level of knowledge on the subject, using Garuda, Kundalini, having Daiba use Tantra hand seals and so on. I did not think it would be far off to think that the concept of renewing the world, and things occuring in cycles(fairly prevelant themes in mysticism) would leak it's way into the Berserk world, especially having things like "every 1000 years.." Sounds like a cycle to me.

I'm not trying to push this, it's just the direction I'm leaning towards at the moment. If I was a Berserk scholar like you, Aaz, or Walter, I could probably come up with some more solid speculation.

I'm just trying to get the whole every 1000 years there's a ritual thing. Of yet there's no proof a previous GH has incarnated, but since this happens every 1000 years, one would expect it happened before. The question is, who?

Anyway, thanks. I don't know anyone else who reads Berserk, or has even seen the anime, and I hadda ramble at someone.





Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 02:10:54 AM »
If I was a Berserk scholar like you, Aaz, or Walter, I could probably come up with some more solid speculation.
I dunno about that. We both often have trouble selling even each other on our own ideas.  :carcus:

Quote
I'm just trying to get the whole every 1000 years there's a ritual thing. Of yet there's no proof a previous GH has incarnated, but since this happens every 1000 years, one would expect it happened before. The question is, who?
That doesn't mean it's happened before. This could be the first time ifor the 1000 year ritual, which lends credibility to the possibility everything "began" God Hand wise, around Gaiseric's reign; something I've been tossing around my head for a while.

Anyway, don't hesitate to ask questions in the future. That's what we're here for, and we always love a good discussion.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Dekant

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 02:38:34 AM »

That doesn't mean it's happened before. This could be the first time ifor the 1000 year ritual, which lends credibility to the possibility everything "began" God Hand wise, around Gaiseric's reign; something I've been tossing around my head for a while.

-if- this is the first time, then something still has to happen to the current set of God Hand members. While things are begining to lean things towards  a total merger of worlds, one would think that there is no need for another ritual, all of the GH will be stopping by soon anyway, check Slann's cameo with Qliphoth. I doubt she could have done that a few years ago. If this started long ago, they were replacing a previous God Hand. If this just started, thinking that in the future, there will be another ritual, something needs to happen to the current set. Maybe in 216 years we'll see if there's a need for a new member to replace Griffith/Femto.

Again, all speculation. There's not much credability to my guessing, care to elaborate on your theory a bit?

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 02:51:32 AM »
one would think that there is no need for another ritual, all of the GH will be stopping by soon anyway, check Slann's cameo with Qliphoth. I doubt she could have done that a few years ago.
Clearly. However, I don't think we've seen the end of Occultation-type ceremonies. They seem to resonate throughout the story (which isn't much of an argument, more of a feeling).
Quote
If this just started, thinking that in the future, there will be another ritual, something needs to happen to the current set. Maybe in 216 years we'll see if there's a need for a new member to replace Griffith/Femto.
I don't think so. Like Aaz said, I think Griffith is the God Hand's "point man." They're relying on him to merge the worlds. In a few more years, I don't think another ceremony will be necessary for them to take physical form. Again, just a hunch, based on the merging of the worlds. Right now we can only wonder what the God Hand's ultimate plan is, after the five were gathered.

That's not to say another ceremony, for whatever purpose (Idea materialization?! ) won't take place.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2006, 07:25:46 AM »
since this happens every 1000 years, one would expect it happened before.

what page in what volume was it that said every 1000 years? maybe it's an issue with the translation and it didn't say "every 1000 years" but "after 1000 years" or something.

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2006, 05:20:59 PM »
what page in what volume was it that said every 1000 years? maybe it's an issue with the translation and it didn't say "every 1000 years" but "after 1000 years" or something.
It's towards the end of volume 18, as told by Skull Knight, and it's not a mistranslation.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2006, 02:12:05 PM »
are you sure it's at the end of volume 18? what page?
the only thing i see is Skullknight talking to Guts about an Eclipse happening. but an eclipse that may be different. he doesn't sound very sure or specific himself.

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2006, 02:43:37 PM »
are you sure it's at the end of volume 18? what page?
the only thing i see is Skullknight talking to Guts about an Eclipse happening. but an eclipse that may be different. he doesn't sound very sure or specific himself.
Skull Knight doesn't sound very sure? :ganishka:

Check page 199, the page with the burning hawk. The 1000 year remark is on the lower-right panel.
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Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 02:46:34 PM »
ok i see it now. so what does it mean that the Godhand "recieve a body"? does it mean all of them get a body or just one body to share among them? every 1000 years, the Godhand gets a body... then, a new set of 5 Godhands begins?

let's say they only get one body (and Femto recieve it), how about this theory:

3 years ago, Femto was made 5th Godhand
219 years ago, Slann was made 4th Godhand
435 years ago, Ubik was made 3rd Godhand
651 years ago, Conrad was made 2nd Godhand
867 years ago, the new set of Godhands began with Void, and Gaiseric's kingdom fell.
1000 years ago, Gaiseric appear in the land after the previous Godhand recieved a body, and the one who got to use the body was Gaiseric. thus, like Griffith, he conquered the land and united it for 133 years (there is 133 years before the birth of Void) and that year, 867 years ago, i'm thinking Gaiseric, the reborn Godhand, is taken out by 4 angels (according to Legend) and these 4 Angels are none other than the other 4 Godhands of that time that took him out for some reason. he'd remain a conqueror for 133 years before the "Wise man" (Void) summoned the other Godhands to stop Gaiseric. the Wise man must have had an awesome or twisted intellect to be able to turn the other Godhands against their reborn Godhand, and it earned him the position of the first Godhand to a whole new set of them. (the other Godhand members died in the war against Gaiseric.) Gaiseric realized that he was used by fate (Griffith will most likely have to face something similair) and went against everything he worked for to get revenge on Void, the Wise man. he became Skullknight.

note that i don't think the previous set of Godhand was as dark and evil as the current 5, because i think the idea of evil gets more and more twisted each 1000 years, because it's not a circle but a spiral.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 02:51:24 PM by A.C »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2006, 03:30:01 PM »
I thought maybe you heard something else by now via an interview, or a magazine, or a Japanese friend of yours who is a cousin to someone who works on Berserk.

Well, no. Miura's pretty secretive with Berserk, he only ever reveals what he wants to, and that doesn't include stuff like this.

I'm not really trying to sell the idea that Ganishka was a God Hand, or that Skull Knight was either. Those are just the two most likely candidates for having anything to do with it thus far.

Depends on your point of view, really. Ganishka's an apostle, we know that for sure. He's also a sorcerer. Given these elements and his actions or the way he speaks about other apostles and the God Hand, it's pretty clear he's not a "former member" or anything of the sort. As for SK, there are currently a lot of elements going against this idea in the manga. It's also a really old theory, and it's been discussed plenty of times before. Feel free to search for previous posts on the issue if you're interested.

Miura clearly has some level of knowledge on the subject, using Garuda, Kundalini, having Daiba use Tantra hand seals and so on. I did not think it would be far off to think that the concept of renewing the world, and things occuring in cycles(fairly prevelant themes in mysticism) would leak it's way into the Berserk world, especially having things like "every 1000 years.." Sounds like a cycle to me.

The use of direct Buddhist or Hinduist references is limited to the Kushans though. There are Buddhist concepts used in Berserk but they're nothing as obvious as these, which by the way are all pretty "recent" in the story. Now, I'm not going to tell you the members of the God Hand haven't changed over time. It's a definite possibility. But even assuming it was the case, it didn't occur through a renewing process like what you're describing. When a member of the God Hand is incarnated he doesn't cease to be part of the club, and he doesn't disappear either. The God Hand currently still has 5 members, it's still complete. It's just that one of them has a corporeal body. Nobody's going to replace him, rather, his actions are leading the way for something (which we can reasonably suspect is part of a bigger scheme). The God Hand was waiting for this to happen, and now they're taking action, they're finally moving. The world's changing, was changed during that incarnation ceremony, but so far it doesn't look like a renewing process either. Rather, we're told its layers are merging together, that seems to be a drastic evolution that'll eventually have serious consequences (spiritual beings roaming freely in the material world?). It doesn't seem to be a "starting over" type of scenario so far, it's more like the God Hand is taking over the world.

You also have to keep in mind that this event is called an incarnation ceremony for a reason. Its goal (as far as we know) is simply for a member of the God Hand to be incarnated, not for the God Hand as a whole to be replaced (what purpose could that possibly serve?). The fact the world's being affected in the process is "just" a consequence. And I'm not sure the original line makes it sound so cyclic either, it's more like "once in a thousand years" than "every 1000 years." Anyway, my original point was just that the God Hand isn't being renewed in such a way. That's not what the ceremony does and I don't think it'd be correct to equate the two things.

I'm just trying to get the whole every 1000 years there's a ritual thing.

Well, you just need to read the rest of the dialogue in the scene for that.

-if- this is the first time, then something still has to happen to the current set of God Hand members. While things are begining to lean things towards  a total merger of worlds, one would think that there is no need for another ritual, all of the GH will be stopping by soon anyway, check Slann's cameo with Qliphoth. I doubt she could have done that a few years ago.

Why would something need to happen to them? It's not like a ritual MUST happen or something (I think that's the error in your reasoning here), I mean we don't have a clue about that. Like you said, one could think that another ceremony won't be necessary, and in that case we can assume it just wouldn't happen. As for Slan appearing in the Qliphoth, I think you should consider another way to view it. Maybe Slan could have appeared in the Qliphoth a few years ago, who knows? However, a few years ago the Qliphoth wouldn't have been accessible from a forest outside of Enoch, as it's a part of the astral world. See the nuance?

If this started long ago, they were replacing a previous God Hand. If this just started, thinking that in the future, there will be another ritual, something needs to happen to the current set.

You're not thinking correctly here. If this is the first time it happens, nothing says there will be a need for another ritual. Things could stay the way they're are and that'd be it. If it took place before, it means something happened to the previous God Hand, most likely that its members died. However that in itself doesn't tell us much about the cause of their disappearance. They could have been killed, anything. And it doesn't mean that the current God Hand will necessarily be killed either, or that what happened to the others will happen to them.



so what does it mean that the Godhand "recieve a body"?

It means that one guy (i.e. Femto) receives one body for himself. You know, just like what actually happened in the story. My God, is it so hard to understand? There's no body sharing and no new set of God Hand members.

how about this theory

Sorry but honestly your theory's pretty bad.

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2006, 05:30:11 PM »
Sorry but honestly your theory's pretty bad.
yet you can't really put your finger on why it's bad can you? because, odd as the theory may sound, it actually has no flaws.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2006, 05:35:59 PM »
yet you can't really put your finger on why it's bad can you? because, odd as the theory may sound, it actually has no flaws.

Sure I can buddy, it's full of flaws and if you were able to read the manga by yourself, without the need for other people to tell you on what page and in what bubble to look for dialogue, you'd know it. I'm just too lazy to lengthily explain it to you right now, and really, I'd prefer you to make the effort of thinking anyway. What do you say, how about you try to debunk your own theory? Think of it as an interesting exercise.

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 07:57:50 PM »
First off, this "theory" is nothing new. Many here have had this exact idea (well, maybe mine was a little better in my AMAZING fanfic "GAISERIC"), before tossing it out after thinking about it for a while.

1000 years ago, Gaiseric appear in the land after the previous Godhand recieved a body, and the one who got to use the body was Gaiseric. thus, like Griffith, he conquered the land
Quote
... because it's not a circle but a spiral.
Whoa whoa, I thought "it" was a spiral, not a circle. Why should Gaiseric's rise to power be just like Griffith's? That's kind of a lazy theory  :troll:

Quote
i'm thinking Gaiseric, the reborn Godhand, is taken out by 4 angels (according to Legend) and these 4 Angels are none other than the other 4 Godhands of that time that took him out for some reason. he'd remain a conqueror for 133 years before the "Wise man" (Void) summoned the other Godhands to stop Gaiseric. the Wise man must have had an awesome or twisted intellect to be able to turn the other Godhands against their reborn Godhand, and it earned him the position of the first Godhand to a whole new set of them.
I see your reasoning here in an ideal sense, but this is really a mess and I think you'll agree with me by the time I'm done. So, Void convinced the previous God Hand to let him be the head of the NEXT God Hand, ya know... after they die horribly in an inevitable failed coup? Truly he must have had a CUNNING intellect.

Quote
Gaiseric realized that he was used by fate (Griffith will most likely have to face something similair) and went against everything he worked for to get revenge on Void, the Wise man. he became Skullknight.
In theories such as these, where we have extremely little evidence, logical leaps are expected, however, this is a LARGE logical leap. So, Gaiseric survived the "war" but somehow didn't retain his God Hand status/abilities/evil nature? I really don't think there's an edit/undo when someone becomes a God Hand. Their soul undergoes a complete transformation, as we saw with Griffith during the eclipse. I don't think it's something Gaiseric could just walk away from after a little tussle.
Quote
note that i don't think the previous set of Godhand was as dark and evil as the current 5, because i think the idea of evil gets more and more twisted each 1000 years, because it's not a circle but a spiral.
What? Why? I have too many questions about how you came up with this conclusion, mostly I guess because there's absolutely NO evidence there was even a previous God Hand, much less evidence to support they were somehow less evil than the current 5. Flora's line about causality not being a circle but a spiral relates to events not repeating each other verbatim, not how progressively evil the Idea of evil becomes... You're transposing her meaning onto something wholly unrelated.

Honestly, you should really just come to the same conclusion I did. We can't prove this shit, so just write a fanfic to realize what likely will never be, and be done with it!  :guts:

I'm sure there's much more that could be disproved here, but this is just the chunk I wanted to point out as Skully's very close to my heart and I don't like people making lies up about his past  :badbone:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2006, 10:34:31 AM »
it's full of flaws and if you were able to read the manga by yourself, without the need for other people to tell you on what page and in what bubble to look for dialogue, you'd know it.

i have only read through the whole series 2 times so you'd have to expect my memory to be a little rusty. i think most of the details i actually picked up on this board, then confirmed them on my second read through (like the mentioning of a Wise man). anyway, i'll be sure to read through it again soon.

First off, this "theory" is nothing new. Many here have had this exact idea (well, maybe mine was a little better in my AMAZING fanfic "GAISERIC"), before tossing it out after thinking about it for a while.

right, i have seen variations of it. but nothing as roughly to the point as mine.

Whoa whoa, I thought "it" was a spiral, not a circle. Why should Gaiseric's rise to power be just like Griffith's? That's kind of a lazy theory  :troll:

yes, well i don't think it was exactly the same. Gaiseric had it much easier and he wasn't as evil as Griffith because the idea of evil hadn't manifested itself enough. i believe the Idea has become stronger over time. infact i think it was borned only 2000 years ago. we don't know how long the world has existed in BERSERK but if we compare it to our world (and this is like the dark ages) then i think humans have only existed a few thousand years. and correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the Idea mention something about humans creating it? if so, then that means Idea has only existed after humans came into existence and started hating eachother.

why does Idea get stronger/more evil over time? well, somehow i doubt the worlds were merging 1000 years ago like they are doing now. things seemed much more primitive back then as well. why was there 5 previous Godhands? because there where 4 "angels" that punished Gaiseric and nothing else in the BERSERK world has been refered to as "angel" other than members of the Godhand, and they are refered to it constantly.

so why only "4" angels, and not five? because one of the 5 had to recieve a body so it wouldn't be among them anymore.

why couldn't the 4 angels be Void, Conrad, Ubik and Slan? well, the invocation of doom, the birth of a kindred to the Godhand, supposedly happens every 216 years, which means there should be at least 9 Godhands present when Griffith was offered to become one of them. what happened to the other 5? we learn that there is only supposed to be 5, how do they know this? because it happened before, and the new Godhands are trying to do what the previous one couldn't.

how does Skullknight know that every 1000 years the Godhand recieve a body? i doubt he sat down and discussed the topic with Void and the others. no, i think Skullknight, or whoever he was back then, was present to witness it happen the last time (1000 years ago). i have always suspected that there will be a twist involving Skullknight. wouldn't it take away from Guts badass-ness if he was only the second generation of an even bigger badass? i'm pretty sure Guts is the original struggler, and i think a conflict will begin when Skullknight's true nature is revealed. remember that Slann called him "your majesty" in person. why would a member of the Godhand call a mere struggler, or anyone for that matter, "your majesty"? because he was previously one of them, and had the most important position before Griffith. for some reason, i don't see Skullknight ever having the brand. i doubt everyone would be as surprised of Guts if there has been strugglers before.

so, what happened to the previous 5 Godhands? they had to be taken out, but who could have taken out a Godhand? one of their own kind of course. Evil often destroys itself and i think that is a likely scenario for what happened last time. i think some sort of twist will happen when we learn of the past, and i'm sure Griffith will have more to worry about than Guts. Griffith is still a main character of the story and he'll be more than just "the last boss for Guts to take out" in the story. besides, the Godhand/Idea has always been Griffith's true enemy, the one that forced him through hardship and seduced him with evil. i don't see Guts ever fighting the Godhand and win as long as he's human, but i can see Griffith fight them realistically.

as for the Wise man that supposedly summoned the 4 "angels". i do think it was Void, but i'm not sure he did it to become a member of the Godhand. it could be that the other 4 Godhands were unsatisfied with Gaiseric, or that it was the idea of evil to always betray him because it was "fate" that he die and perish so that a new generation could rise. Idea could have used Gaiseric as a pawn for increasing the hatred in people so that it would grow stronger for the next generations. maybe the 4 previous Godhands made Void one before they perished. if the 4 previous angels weren't as powerful (and logically they shouldn't have been) then Gaiseric, the strongest of them, could probably have taken them out.

as for the problem of how Gaiseric could lose hos Godhand power, i think he still has it as Skullknight. how else could he have interfered with the Eclipse/Invocation of Doom? since a new generation of Godhand has arisen, his status has become invalid, but out of respect of the previous generation, Slann still calls him "majesty".

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 01:05:06 PM »
Ok I'm going to come back on your first post since you didn't really clarify what you said after Walter's reply, then address your response. Sorry if it's a long and boring quotefest but I tried to clarify as much as I could while not spending too much time on it. It's also not meant to bash your theory, just to explain why it's flawed.

every 1000 years, the Godhand gets a body... then, a new set of 5 Godhands begins?

Nothing tends to prove this, or even hints at it. There's no basis for that affirmation, and actually we can see that it's not the case in the manga: no new "set" of God Hand members has "begun" since Femto's incarnation. The GH is still complete, and it's still moving forward with its plans, what with the layers of the world merging, etc.

867 years ago, the new set of Godhands began with Void, and Gaiseric's kingdom fell.

If you're going to stick by the numbers, the fall of the capital of Gaiseric's empire is said to have occured 1000 years ago. And the wiseman that summoned the 5 angels is supposed to have lived at that time too.

1000 years ago, Gaiseric appear in the land after the previous Godhand recieved a body, and the one who got to use the body was Gaiseric.

But his empire already existed by then, and what happened 1000 years ago is supposed to be the destruction of his capital.

i'm thinking Gaiseric, the reborn Godhand, is taken out by 4 angels (according to Legend)

He wouldn't be reborn but incarnated. Also, according to the legend as told by Charlotte it's 5 angels. And if Gaiseric was taken out, why is he still alive, assuming he's SK?

and these 4 Angels are none other than the other 4 Godhands of that time that took him out for some reason.

Care to give that mysterious reason? Walter commented on it, but really, I'd like to know. There's no reason I could think of, nor anything in the manga you could base this assumption on.

the Wise man must have had an awesome or twisted intellect to be able to turn the other Godhands against their reborn Godhand

Yeah indeed, and the Idea of Evil was cool with it too. Man, what a guy that wiseman was. This feat sounds so incredible that I'd even say it's unlikely and far-fetched.

(the other Godhand members died in the war against Gaiseric.)

How convenient. They destroyed the capital of his empire in a single night, but still died in a war that not mentioned anywhere. How were they killed exactly?

Gaiseric realized that he was used by fate

"Fate" isn't an entity, so it doesn't use people. It's not a force in the Berserk world, just an abstract concept, much like in our world. If you refer to causality, then it's only a tool to the Idea of Evil.

(Griffith will most likely have to face something similair) and went against everything he worked for to get revenge on Void, the Wise man. he became Skullknight.

God Hand members are told to do what they want, if we go by episode 83. Whatever they do, and whatever the "masterplan" they're being knowingly and voluntarily used for is, it can only profit them as far as we know. There's hardly a reason for this to happen basically. Also, how exactly did this transformation occur? You didn't address Walter's comment on this.

note that i don't think the previous set of Godhand was as dark and evil as the current 5, because i think the idea of evil gets more and more twisted each 1000 years, because it's not a circle but a spiral.

What's "it" again? You're taking a quote out of its context (as Wally already remarked), so would you care to come back on this and explain it? Also, what are your bases for thinking so? This is all baseless conjecture.

i have only read through the whole series 2 times so you'd have to expect my memory to be a little rusty.

Well it's not just a matter of memory here, it's more about Berserk knowledge in general. No offense of course, but it'll take you more than reading the series once a year to elaborate "flawless" theories. There's simply too many things to take into account for that, not to mention all of what we ignore. And be careful about what you pick up in here, not every member posts reliable information.

Gaiseric had it much easier and he wasn't as evil as Griffith because the idea of evil hadn't manifested itself enough.

You don't know that, it's pure speculation, and not supported by anything. It's a complete assumption, and therefore not any better than fan fiction.

i believe the Idea has become stronger over time.

Complete assumption, not supported by anything.

infact i think it was borned only 2000 years ago.

Wow, now we're getting really precise here with the baseless assumptions.

we don't know how long the world has existed in BERSERK but if we compare it to our world (and this is like the dark ages) then i think humans have only existed a few thousand years.

Hahah, are you joking? Homo sapiens have been around for roughly 200,000 years. And their (our) ancesters were around for a long time before that. This is really preposterous man...

and correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the Idea mention something about humans creating it?

It didn't say it exactly like that, but it was created from mankind, yes.

if so, then that means Idea has only existed after humans came into existence and started hating eachother.

Yeah, although there's no specific need for them to hate themselves.

why does Idea get stronger/more evil over time? well, somehow i doubt the worlds were merging 1000 years ago like they are doing now.

Ok, now that doesn't justify anything dude. Alright, the layers of the world maybe didn't merge a thousand years ago. You're assuming they didn't. Why are they merging now? Because the God Hand is complete, and one of them has been incarnated. If the layers of the world didn't merge back then, the logical explanation is that the God Hand wasn't complete (or simply didn't exist at all) and that none of them was incarnated. Or, it could have happened, but the plan could have failed for some reason. Basically, you're trying to justify an assumption with a completely unrelated assumption that, even if it was true, wouldn't justify it anyway.

things seemed much more primitive back then as well.

Oh yeah? How much more primitive did they seem exactly? In the legend Charlotte tells (which as the legend it is, doesn't prove much) we see tribes and city-states fighting each other continuously, until one man united them all. They're depicted similarly to Greco-Romans, and if we stop at that, they don't look much more primitive than the Berserk world is today. Merely a different society. You could also consider the fact that back then, magic was much more present in the world, from what we know. People probably preferred to stay close to nature. At least until Gaiseric decided to build his capital.

why was there 5 previous Godhands? because there where 4 "angels" that punished Gaiseric and nothing else in the BERSERK world has been refered to as "angel" other than members of the Godhand, and they are refered to it constantly.

What about the 4 elemental kings? They've been called angels. Also, they're actually 4 and not 5.

so why only "4" angels, and not five? because one of the 5 had to recieve a body so it wouldn't be among them anymore.

Well, then again the legend mentions 5 angels, 4 is only a possibility and not the main version as told by Charlotte. Also, excuse me but why would 4 members of the God Hand attack the fifth? This just doesn't make sense. None at all. They have a common cause, and they serve the Idea of Evil. Fighting among themselves would simply be stupid, and would disserve them all. I'm also not sure that'd be possible at all. This is seriously weak and I don't see anything supporting that idea, just like for the rest of what you've said so far.

the invocation of doom

Ok now please, I'm asking you a favor: don't use these stupid terms. That doesn't mean anything, please stick to "occultation," or at least "eclipse." I know it's in the Dark Horse translation, but it's wrong and I'd rather not see it used here. Thanks in advance.

because it happened before, and the new Godhands are trying to do what the previous one couldn't.

Well, that's unproven. It's possible though, so that's a welcome statement, but it still doesn't lend any ground to your theory.

how does Skullknight know that every 1000 years the Godhand recieve a body?

He knows a lot of things without any explanation of how he knows them. If we start with that we're not finished.

no, i think Skullknight, or whoever he was back then, was present to witness it happen the last time (1000 years ago).

And how would that tell him it happens every 1000 years exactly? Being there when it happened would only have allowed him to know that it happened once. Not how frequently it happens. Also, you're saying the incarnation ceremony happened a thousand years ago and destroyed Gaiseric's capital, right? Because you know, I doubt Gaiseric himself received a physical body by destroying his own capital he had previously built. Or maybe he used a time machine or something? So Gaiseric conquered lands, united a lot of people together, created an empire, had a huge capital built for his empire, and then he appeared on earth? Sounds like there's a little problem here man. It doesn't make any sense, and I think I can safely say it's not what happened.

i have always suspected that there will be a twist involving Skullknight. wouldn't it take away from Guts badass-ness if he was only the second generation of an even bigger badass?

Well... No? Anyway, it's already pretty much clear that Guts is walking in SK's steps. I mean he's wearing an armor SK wore in the past, all that... And Flora and Zodd both commented on it. Just by the fact they're opposing the God Hand they're bound to be compared anyway, and SK's the older one. Oh yeah and he's saved Guts in critical situations. If he has to be less badass in your eyes, it should already be the case.

i'm pretty sure Guts is the original struggler

He sure is, since SK gave him that nickname. That doesn't really mean anything though. They still both "fight against evil," and SK's done it for far longer.

remember that Slann called him "your majesty" in person. why would a member of the Godhand call a mere struggler, or anyone for that matter, "your majesty"?

First off he's not "a mere struggler." Second she called him "王さま" because he was a fucking emperor dude. Not anyone, the first emperor that ever existed. "Your majesty" is only a translation, but "王" is used to refer to a king or an emperor. And she obviously said so ironically, to make fun of him. If anything, this only confirms that SK was most likely Gaiseric in the past. Once again, this isn't anything vague or open to doubt. It doesn't support your theory at all.

had the most important position before Griffith

Who's to say what the most important position is? Or that there's one? Griffith is in the spotlight right now, but I'd rather not make conclusions too hastily about the rest.

for some reason, i don't see Skullknight ever having the brand.

Well, we don't know whether he's branded or not. However, you're taking a serious risk by saying that, because it's far more likely to be true than your theory is.

who could have taken out a Godhand? one of their own kind of course. Evil often destroys itself and i think that is a likely scenario for what happened last time.

You'll excuse me but that's just ridiculous. "Evil often destroys itself?" Is this supposed to be your solid evidence that the God Hand would destroy itself for basically no reason? Like they were jealous of each other or something? It's a baseless assumption, it'd be a very stupid thing to do, the Idea of Evil wouldn't allow it, and most of all it's really far-fetched.

Griffith is still a main character of the story and he'll be more than just "the last boss for Guts to take out" in the story. besides, the Godhand/Idea has always been Griffith's true enemy, the one that forced him through hardship and seduced him with evil.

Seriously man, are you kidding me? My "Griffith fanboy" radar just exploded here. Griffith is the main villain of the story. He's part of the God Hand. The other members are his allies. They've helped him so far and will continue to do so. And I'm not sure you could say they're directly responsible for his hardships, since that was more likely the Idea of Evil's doing. Anyway, they're definitely not his enemies, there's no sense to this affirmation. They're a team, and as you said yourself he's an important part of it. Don't expect him to suddenly become the main character of the story and to fight evil, because it'll never happen. Berserk is about Guts and it'll remain so, I'll bet on it if you want. The Golden Age arc is over, and it's not coming back.

i don't see Guts ever fighting the Godhand and win as long as he's human, but i can see Griffith fight them realistically.

We'll see about Guts fighting them and winning, once again you're taking a big risk by saying so. Don't forget about his encounter with Slan in the Qliphoth, and all that is going to happen in the future, with Elfhelm and the rest. Now, Griffith fighting them? He simply has no reason to. Why would they fight each other all of a sudden after working together all along? It doesn't make sense. And nothing proves it possible or likely.

as for the Wise man that supposedly summoned the 4 "angels". i do think it was Void, but i'm not sure he did it to become a member of the Godhand.

Well, problem here anyway is that 1000 years ago wasn't the right time for an occultation ceremony to occur, if you want to strictly stick to the numbers. It was the right time for an incarnation ceremony, meaning one member of the God Hand coming to earth.

it could be that the other 4 Godhands were unsatisfied with Gaiseric

Hahah, so they were unsatisfied and just decided to get rid of him? This is far-fetched. How are they supposed to do that exactly? And where is it said that they get to decide? This isn't their role. Also, it's not like they wouldn't have known beforehand, it's always been more or less clear that they follow a plan of some sort.

it was the idea of evil to always betray him because it was "fate" that he die and perish so that a new generation could rise.

Even better. So the Idea of Evil wastes its time and resources to create a member of the God Hand, then makes it so he's the one being incarnated, and then destroys it for no reason instead of using him to merge the layers of the world and move the "masterplan" forward? Where's the logic in this? Where's the Idea of Evil's interest in doing so, or the GH's interest for that matter? It disserves them. And what's this "fate" joke? The Idea of Evil manipulates Causality so that things go as it pleases it, "fate" is an abstract concept that is here completely irrelevant, and honestly I don't see why "God" would randomly decide that it's "fate" to waste its efforts for no reason.

Idea could have used Gaiseric as a pawn for increasing the hatred in people so that it would grow stronger for the next generations.

Then there'd be no need to make him part of the God Hand, then have him be incarnated. Any human could do that. Or even an apostle, why not. Look at Ganishka or the Midland King, or anybody else. They're real pawns. It'd be stupid for the Idea of Evil to do what you describe.

maybe the 4 previous Godhands made Void one before they perished. if the 4 previous angels weren't as powerful (and logically they shouldn't have been) then Gaiseric, the strongest of them, could probably have taken them out.

What a mess... So the God Hand made Void a member in -864, right? And they destroyed Gaiseric's capital in -1000, still correct? But the wiseman that called the angels was Void, and that was around -1000. Hmmm. Also, where did you get that the 5th member was logically stronger than the others? What is this based on? Also, he was stronger than all 4 of them, but couldn't prevent his capital being destroyed despite the fact he slew them all? And he disappeared forever and his empire disintigrated itself? And he allowed new God Hand members to be created? And he can't kill the new members? And this was all what the Idea of Evil had planned? Of course, this is all unproven, but even beyond that, it's really illogical in many regards.

as for the problem of how Gaiseric could lose hos Godhand power, i think he still has it as Skullknight. how else could he have interfered with the Eclipse/Invocation of Doom?

He interfered by jumping in the giant tornado with his magical horse? Sounds pretty simple to me. Also, if he still has his God Hand powers, why would he fight with a sword and a shield, and why has he been collecting and swallowing beherits for the purpose of taking the GH on? And what about his armor? He wore the Berserk's armor in the past, but now he wears another one. And he has no visible flesh anymore. There'd be no need for this if he was a member of the God Hand with the corresponding powers. Also, he has an elfin aura about him that Puck noticed in volume 18. That fully contradict the hypothesis of him being a member of the God Hand, or having related powers. Or being evil. And he's friends with Flora, a very powerful witch that helped him in the past and probably lived as long as him. She was depicted as fundamentally good, and we have no reason to doubt she was. It really seems extremely unlikely that she would affiliate herself with a member of the God Hand, even a past one. On a side note, was SK's horse a member of the God Hand too? Because he seems to have powers as well as its master.

out of respect of the previous generation, Slann still calls him "majesty".

I already addressed this, but once again, it's wrong. And Slan wasn't really being respectful.

Ok, well I hope this will have been useful for you. I'm sure I forgot some things here and there, so other people are welcome to comment on them of course. In the end, we don't know enough about these events to be able to elaborate theories with any kind of certainty, especially since several elements directly contradict each other.

Offline vlad

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006, 02:52:18 PM »
Not really much left to add, even what I'm about to post was addressed but I'd like to put some more emphasis on it.
Quote
Idea could have used Gaiseric as a pawn for increasing the hatred in people so that it would grow stronger for the next generations.
You seem to be hung up on the notion that the Idea needs humans for it's growth (and that it in fact grows in power). IMHO that would be sort of unlikely, it was created from all the negative emotions and feelings of animosity etc. but it would seem that once things were set in motion it sort of transcended it's initial purpose. It has an Ego of it's own and plans that do not necessarily have humanity's best interests in mind, nor do they hinge on what people want. There are people in Berserk that are what we might call good (Luca for example, bless her heart) yet their actions do not seem to diminish Idea's power and they are affected by whats going on same as the rest of humanity. This whole situation of the worlds merging was started long ago, remember that Griffith's whole life was practically leading him towards this point and that it was the Idea's manipulations that made it so. With this being said it would IMHO follow that the Idea is very powerfull from the beginning in order for such a grand scheme to manifest itself.
Hope this helps a bit.

Offline Proj2501

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2006, 01:14:53 AM »
Ok I'm going to come back on your first post since you didn't really clarify what you said after Walter's reply, then address your response.

Hahahaha....ahhhh Aaz, you're crazy.

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 11:10:07 AM »
Nothing tends to prove this, or even hints at it. There's no basis for that affirmation, and actually we can see that it's not the case in the manga: no new "set" of God Hand members has "begun" since Femto's incarnation. The GH is still complete, and it's still moving forward with its plans, what with the layers of the world merging, etc.

there has not been any hints yet, but if we don't start to consider the possibilities we are never going to get very far with our theories. it's not like what hasn't been hinted still isn't possible. of course no new set of Godhand members have begun when it's only been roughly 3 years since they were completed, and not even one year since one of them recieved a body. last time, going by the numbers, it took 133 years before a new occultation/eclipse happened. now that the Godhand is complete, what will happen 213 years from now? not another occultation, right? because the set is complete. however, should they perish, another would probably happen... or? what do you think? since every 1000 years the Godhand recieve a body, what will happen a thousand years from now? will it be Slan's turn to recieve a body? or Void? or will their plan be executed so there won't be any need for one?

If you're going to stick by the numbers, the fall of the capital of Gaiseric's empire is said to have occured 1000 years ago. And the wiseman that summoned the 5 angels is supposed to have lived at that time too.

the numbers are never specified though, but using math we can come to the conclusion that Gaiseric's rule came to an end around 867 years ago. now, if the number of "angels" he summoned to destroy Gaiseric and his capital was 5, then doesn't that give even more credit to them being a previous set of Godhands? the element kings are only 4 so they're out. then again, Judeau corrects Charlotte and asks if it wasn't 4 because that's what he heard. also, Mozgus doesn't specify numbers so i don't know why you think it would be 5 exactly, his quote is:

"In this tower a wise man was once imprisoned by Gaiseric the qunqueror. They say that in the midst of all kinds of torture he continued to implore God to punish the crimes of the king, until finally some angels appeared."

God, in the BERSRK world, is the Godhand. the Godhand would respond to someone who wouldn't use magic. the fact that people have abandoned magic in favor of "God" is in favor of the Godhand. this supports my theory that the wise man, or Void, summoned the Godhand specifically. 

if Gaiseric wasn't a Godhand, then what happened to these previous 5 Godhands remains a mystery. Idea, causality, the wise man, or Gaiseric did something to them and they vanished. what they did, i do not know... why they did it, i don't know either.

How were they killed exactly?

Gaiseric speared them on his lance.

but serously, i never claimed to know all the answers. Miura will fill us in on it in due time.

God Hand members are told to do what they want, if we go by episode 83.

well, the previous 5 must have been composed of 5 different type of individuals and they could have messed up because they did what they wanted. this new set of Godhand is a different deal because they have Void, the "wise man" among them. Void will not allow them to screw up easily. Void has probably had a huge impact on the way Godhand operates since his birth. this time, evil is wise...

also, it seemed you welcomed the statement that the new Godhands are trying to do what the previous one couldn't. so then wouldn't that mean the previous one failed in some regards, possibly lacking the genius of Void?

What's "it" again? You're taking a quote out of its context (as Wally already remarked), so would you care to come back on this and explain it? Also, what are your bases for thinking so? This is all baseless conjecture.

i guess "it" would be causality, and my base for thinking that evil gets stronger over time is because the world wasn't drowned in evil 1000 years ago, like it seems to be headed now. the fact that Idea was born from humanity's dark side means it most likely derives it's strength and continued survival on it.

Wow, now we're getting really precise here with the baseless assumptions.

if i'm wrong here, then doesn't that mean that Godhand has existed as far back as 100,000 + years? if so, care to enlighten me why'd it take this long for them to get 5 members and a decent body to execute their plan and have the world's merging if they were as strong back then as they are now?

Ok, now that doesn't justify anything dude. Alright, the layers of the world maybe didn't merge a thousand years ago. You're assuming they didn't.

i find it hard to believe the worlds started to merge, only to stop and then un-merge... but maybe i'm missing something.

Why are they merging now? Because the God Hand is complete, and one of them has been incarnated. If the layers of the world didn't merge back then, the logical explanation is that the God Hand wasn't complete (or simply didn't exist at all) and that none of them was incarnated.

so are you saying that Skullknight was wrong when he said it happens every 1000 years? or are you saying they recieved a body, but they couldn't use it because they didn't exist back then, or they weren't complete? do you have any base for this assumption?

Or, it could have happened, but the plan could have failed for some reason.

isn't that what i have been suggesting all along?

You could also consider the fact that back then, magic was much more present in the world, from what we know. People probably preferred to stay close to nature. At least until Gaiseric decided to build his capital.

well, what does that tell you about Gaiseric? another parallel between him and Griffith getting rid of the ancient good magical powers?

Also, excuse me but why would 4 members of the God Hand attack the fifth? This just doesn't make sense.

that's why it's so intriguing. it would also add spice to Griffith's story.

Ok now please, I'm asking you a favor: don't use these stupid terms. That doesn't mean anything, please stick to "occultation," or at least "eclipse." I know it's in the Dark Horse translation, but it's wrong and I'd rather not see it used here. Thanks in advance.

i thought the translator established that Invocation of Doom actually was the correct translation however silly it sounds. but i can stick with "eclipse" if you want. i don't really care as long as people know what i'm refering to.

He knows a lot of things without any explanation of how he knows them. If we start with that we're not finished.

if he was a Godhand though, he could have gotten it straight from Idea. otherwise i'm lost as to how he could have the knowledge. i don't think he would have lengthy discussions with Void, although it seemed that Void had preached about causality in his presence, i doubt the Godhand would sit down with Skully and bring him up to date. he could have gotten the info from witches or fairies that has a longer lifespan and who could have kept tracks on these incarnations for generations, but then the question remains how could the Godhand have existed for so long and not executed their plan already, or at the very least, left a major mark in history.

Also, you're saying the incarnation ceremony happened a thousand years ago and destroyed Gaiseric's capital, right? Because you know, I doubt Gaiseric himself received a physical body by destroying his own capital he had previously built.

no, like the legend says, he appeared seemingly out of nowhere, like Griffith.

"Where was he from? What kind of soldier was he?"

that's a quote from volume 10. Charlotte also says that Gaiseric loved war, celebrating it even, and was called the king who brought death. sounds like an evil person, apostel or godhandish person, no?

note that Charlotte doesn't specify events as playing out a 1000 years ago exactly. she says the story is "probably a thousand year old story". also, Gaiseric didn't destroy his own kindom, the "angels" did.

it's already pretty much clear that Guts is walking in SK's steps. I mean he's wearing an armor SK wore in the past, all that... And Flora and Zodd both commented on it. Just by the fact they're opposing the God Hand they're bound to be compared anyway, and SK's the older one.

anything with a body could wear the armor though, doesn't rule out that he wasn't an incarnated Godhand.

He sure is, since SK gave him that nickname. That doesn't really mean anything though. They still both "fight against evil," and SK's done it for far longer.

how do we know Skullknight fights against evil though? if he's Gaiseric, then he loves war just like Zodd. for all we know he could be into all this for the kick of killing off anything, even his own kindred. we've seen Zodd do it do. "do as you please" remember?

You'll excuse me but that's just ridiculous. "Evil often destroys itself?" Is this supposed to be your solid evidence that the God Hand would destroy itself for basically no reason? Like they were jealous of each other or something? It's a baseless assumption, it'd be a very stupid thing to do, the Idea of Evil wouldn't allow it, and most of all it's really far-fetched.

yet Idea told them to "do as they please". it wouldn't be an idea of evil if it didn't get a kick out of killing anything, even it's own kind.

Seriously man, are you kidding me? My "Griffith fanboy" radar just exploded here. Griffith is the main villain of the story. He's part of the God Hand.

i'm not a Griffith fanboy by a long shot but i still think he's a more flexible and important character than you give him credit for. a sane Casca could unite them again, especially considering that Griffith is now also their child. and, no, the other members of the Godhand aren't his team. not exactly. evil "do as they please", they have no team. you could tell by the way Slan talked about the other members. sure they're "allies" for now, but that could change fast. we don't know how tight they are until we hear about the big plan.

We'll see about Guts fighting them and winning, once again you're taking a big risk by saying so. Don't forget about his encounter with Slan in the Qliphoth

he had no chance against Slan in the Qliphoth, and got a serious wound in the process. he pierced her body but it inflicted no damage whatsoever, infact she loved every second of it. it just doesn't look possible.

So the Idea of Evil wastes its time and resources to create a member of the God Hand, then makes it so he's the one being incarnated, and then destroys it for no reason instead of using him to merge the layers of the world and move the "masterplan" forward? Where's the logic in this?
you're not thinking evil enough. if the Idea/Godhand wasn't as strong before, like i've attempted to suggest, then it would need to fuel it by having a start/reset type scenario.

Then there'd be no need to make him part of the God Hand, then have him be incarnated. Any human could do that. Or even an apostle, why not. Look at Ganishka or the Midland King, or anybody else. They're real pawns.

why does "pawns" only stop at Ganishka or the Midland King? for all we know they're all pawns.

What a mess... So the God Hand made Void a member in -864, right? And they destroyed Gaiseric's capital in -1000, still correct?

no, they destroyed Gaiseric's capital around -867, coinciding with the birth of Void. the capital was created in -1000 and stood for roughly 130 years.

But the wiseman that called the angels was Void, and that was around -1000. Hmmm.

no, as i said, it was around -867. do the math.

Also, where did you get that the 5th member was logically stronger than the others? What is this based on?

he probably wasn't much stronger than the others.

Also, he was stronger than all 4 of them, but couldn't prevent his capital being destroyed despite the fact he slew them all?

Void could have helped him, to make sure everything went with Idea's plan.

And he disappeared forever and his empire disintigrated itself? And he allowed new God Hand members to be created? And he can't kill the new members?

he didn't disappear, but he wanted to kill even stronger enemies. he killed the Godhand's, his equals, and got a taste for it. he can't kill the new Godhand's because they're stronger as a result of the process Gaiseric's existence went through.

And this was all what the Idea of Evil had planned?

pretty much.

He interfered by jumping in the giant tornado with his magical horse? Sounds pretty simple to me.

the "magical" horse Skullknight rides gives more credit to him being a Godhand (the horse is part of his body) otherwise i'm completely lost for what the horse is.

Also, if he still has his God Hand powers, why would he fight with a sword and a shield

being of the previous generation, he doesn't have "Godhand powers" in the same sense as the current five. for him a sword and shield is sufficient.

And what about his armor? He wore the Berserk's armor in the past, but now he wears another one. And he has no visible flesh anymore.

that's because the armor ate away the "flesh" he had incarnated in.

Also, he has an elfin aura about him that Puck noticed in volume 18.

when you stick around a witch who lives with fairies you're bound to pick up a few new sents...

And he's friends with Flora, a very powerful witch that helped him in the past and probably lived as long as him. She was depicted as fundamentally good, and we have no reason to doubt she was. It really seems extremely unlikely that she would affiliate herself with a member of the God Hand, even a past one.

Why is it unlikely that she would affiliate herself with a member of the old Godhand? i don't think it's any more unlikely than Zodd affiliating himself with a little girl and killing his own kindred.

well I hope this will have been useful for you.

it has been helpful, and it has made me question my theory a little. but there's still not much else that makes as much sense to me as this theory. but, as you said, we don't know enough to elaborate theories with any kind of certainty.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006, 04:22:52 PM »
there has not been any hints yet, but if we don't start to consider the possibilities we are never going to get very far with our theories. it's not like what hasn't been hinted still isn't possible.

No, but there's no factual evidence backing up what you're saying. It's all just conjecture based on your imagination (and misinterpretation of various elements). If you have nothing to base your theory on and that things actually stand against it in the manga, then it's not good for anything. The problem with your theory is the lack of hard facts supporting it.

of course no new set of Godhand members have begun when it's only been roughly 3 years since they were completed, and not even one year since one of them recieved a body. last time, going by the numbers, it took 133 years before a new occultation/eclipse happened.

No, going by the numbers the legend of Gaiseric's capital being destroyed is itself "around a thousand years old." That's what we're told. It doesn't fit with your calculations, or else you're taking relatively big liberties with them. Hell, -1083 years would be closer to her estimation than -867. Now, I'm not going to insist about it, but I hope you realize that it's a pretty large margin, and not exactly a model of accuracy.

now that the Godhand is complete, what will happen 213 years from now? not another occultation, right? because the set is complete.

Guess not.

since every 1000 years the Godhand recieve a body, what will happen a thousand years from now? will it be Slan's turn to recieve a body? or Void? or will their plan be executed so there won't be any need for one?

If their "plan" keeps going at this rate, they won't wait a thousand years for an event like this, no. Try to think about it a little, what's happening in the story right now? The world is already changing in fundamental ways, there are plagues, wars, great changes are on the way. Not to mention that the principles that rule the world are now different. All of this in such a short time, only a few years since Griffith became Femto. And you need to read what SK said besides that incarnations were possible once in a thousand years. It was exceptional, but now the world has changed. It's different. Who knows what could happen in this new world? The God Hand will surely gain a stronger grasp on the material world, and quickly.

the numbers are never specified though, but using math we can come to the conclusion that Gaiseric's rule came to an end around 867 years ago.

Like I said, that's a pretty big margin, and in itself that's quite a problem. And don't go thinking nobody's done these simple calculations before either, it's nothing new. The problem is the 100+ years gap here.

now, if the number of "angels" he summoned to destroy Gaiseric and his capital was 5, then doesn't that give even more credit to them being a previous set of Godhands?

That does give it more credit, but that also means Gaiseric wasn't an incarnated member of the God Hand then, proving your theory wrong.

the element kings are only 4 so they're out. then again, Judeau corrects Charlotte and asks if it wasn't 4 because that's what he heard. also, Mozgus doesn't specify numbers so i don't know why you think it would be 5 exactly

Who cares what Mozgus says? Charlotte is easily the most educated on the matter, being a princess of the country concerned with this event. And we're shown 5 angels in the only illustration of that event there is. Judo doesn't correct anything either, he's just asking out of incertitude. And please, try to refrain from quoting me translations like that, since you're not sure they're even correct. We've seen how it can lead to misunderstandings.

God, in the BERSRK world, is the Godhand.

Uhh no, sorry. God is the Idea of Evil, and that's not the god Mozgus refers to, his god is fictitious. Mozgus kept talking about god until his death, and it was made pretty clear it was all bullshit.

the Godhand would respond to someone who wouldn't use magic.

What? You don't know what the God Hand would do, and you don't know whether the mysterious wiseman knew magic or not. In any case the only way to come in contact with them that we know of is through a beherit. And for your information, I'll remind you that God Hand members can't materialize themselves in the physical world if an occultation isn't happening. Now, since the God Hand was already complete at the time with Gaiseric, according to your theory, how come could they have enthroned a new member (Void)? That'd have made them 6, so it's not possible. That's also why Femto's incarnation was such a big event. They just can't appear in the world as they want, or at least they couldn't until recently. You're saying that instead of an Eclipse occuring, Void just summoned the God Hand while it was already complete, and had them attack one of their members in another place. This just doesn't work.

the fact that people have abandoned magic in favor of "God" is in favor of the Godhand. this supports my theory that the wise man, or Void, summoned the Godhand specifically.

Jesus, what kind of logic is that? First off people didn't abandon magic in favor of "God," but over the years they slowly switched beliefs to the Holy See's teachings (and that's only people from a few countries we've seen, the world is vast), and that's not a process we know much about. That phenomenon was also brought about by the conglomeration of people in big cities. Consequently the use and acceptance of magic diminished, but that took hundreds of years to get where it is now. And people aren't worshipping the God Hand, I don't know where you're getting that from. The God Hand are only known to very few people, that is the apostles and powerful magic users such as Flora, plus some special people here and there. Equating the Holy See's "god" to the God Hand is completely baseless (of course) and doesn't make any sense that I can see. They're like, 5, and "God" is like, unique. Also, the 4 elemental kings are in the Holy See's scriptures as prominent entities, that kind of contradicts this eventuality. In any case this doesn't support your theory at all, and anyway, if that wiseman indeed summoned the God Hand while he was in Albion, how come it's the territory Wyndham stands on that was destroyed? They're pretty far away from each other, and you're saying the destruction happened when the wiseman became Void, so logically it happened just like for Griffith. Meaning the sacrificed people should have been there with him, not at the other end of the country. Else that'd have been a really big tornado, covering a whole country and all that.

if Gaiseric wasn't a Godhand, then what happened to these previous 5 Godhands remains a mystery. Idea, causality, the wise man, or Gaiseric did something to them and they vanished. what they did, i do not know... why they did it, i don't know either.

Well thanks, that really helps make things clearer. Of course it's only an assumption that there already was a God Hand at that time. Or that God Hand members can die. And I'm really convinced that SK was never a member of the God Hand, for quite a lot of reasons. Please note that I'm not blaming you, it's obvious you don't know and it really couldn't be otherwise. We can all invent reasons and twists and all that, but in the end it remains fan fiction in the absence of more concrete elements to base ourselves on.

Gaiseric speared them on his lance.

but serously, i never claimed to know all the answers. Miura will fill us in on it in due time.

I'm sorry but that's far too vague for something so important in your theory... It's not like it's a detail or something. Gaping holes like this are recurring in theories like yours, which is why I was a bit amused when you claimed it was flawless. Anyway, I don't see how one of them could have killed 4 others "just like that," especially after they destroyed his capital in a single night, unhindered. And anyway, there's no reason for them to have fought among themselves, especially not at the request of a mere mortal. This doesn't make sense.

well, the previous 5 must have been composed of 5 different type of individuals and they could have messed up because they did what they wanted. this new set of Godhand is a different deal because they have Void, the "wise man" among them. Void will not allow them to screw up easily.

Sorry but that's not true. Current God Hand members still do as they please. Slan does, Femto does. Void isn't their babysitter or something. Your claim is unfounded and everything in the manga tends to prove the opposite of what you're saying, down to the Idea of Evil telling Griffith to do as he wishes. Also, the Idea of Evil, through causality, makes it so what people want is what it wants them to want, therefore coinciding to move its plans forward. It's very unlikely it would have allowed such a thing to happen for no reason. What are you basing this assumption on anyway? I can't seem to give it any validity whatsoever.

Void has probably had a huge impact on the way Godhand operates since his birth.

Probably? Why? There's nothing to base this assumption on.

also, it seemed you welcomed the statement that the new Godhands are trying to do what the previous one couldn't. so then wouldn't that mean the previous one failed in some regards, possibly lacking the genius of Void?

Well, I welcomed it as a reasonable possibility. If there was a previous God Hand, it's logical to assume it failed at some point, for some reason. Now, who said Void's a genius? He's certainly not "smarter" or more "cunning" than the Idea of Evil, wouldn't you agree? Anyway, this isn't really what interests us in your theory. Void being the wiseman or not, and being the oldest member of the current God Hand or not, is another debate altogether.

i guess "it" would be causality

So it doesn't relate to what you were saying then, and your line of reasoning is invalidated.

and my base for thinking that evil gets stronger over time is because the world wasn't drowned in evil 1000 years ago, like it seems to be headed now.

How do you know? 1000 years ago there were constant wars, and aside from that we don't know anything about it. Well, except that Gaiseric built a huge city that was later completely annihilated, most likely killing a lot of people. Sounds pretty "evil" to me, and if there already was a God Hand like you say, with Gaiseric being like Griffith and uniting the land, also like you say, then it's basically the exact same thing.

the fact that Idea was born from humanity's dark side means it most likely derives it's strength and continued survival on it.

Sorry, I don't think it means that, and nothing implies it in the manga.

if i'm wrong here, then doesn't that mean that Godhand has existed as far back as 100,000 + years?

Not necessarily, no.

care to enlighten me why'd it take this long for them to get 5 members and a decent body to execute their plan and have the world's merging if they were as strong back then as they are now?

Well you tell me buddy, it's your theory. Nevertheless, nothing supports your numbers.

i find it hard to believe the worlds started to merge, only to stop and then un-merge... but maybe i'm missing something.

It's not any harder to believe than all of what you've said so far. I certainly find it MUCH harder to believe that the members of the God Hand would fight among themselves because a human told them to, resulting in their complete annihilation.

so are you saying that Skullknight was wrong when he said it happens every 1000 years? or are you saying they recieved a body, but they couldn't use it because they didn't exist back then, or they weren't complete? do you have any base for this assumption?

Well I'm not assuming anything, I'm using facts to produce a logical deduction, in turn using it to challenge your illogical reasoning. I see what you did here, but I'm afraid that fails. The fact SK said such thing could happen once in a thousand years doesn't necessarily mean it's happened before, although it more or less suggests it.

isn't that what i have been suggesting all along?

No, you said that the Idea of Evil had Gaiseric die because it was "fate." You also said the God Hand fought him and he killed them because some super cunning dude locked up in a tower asked them so. That's not "the plan failing," it's "the plan being stupid" and "there being no plan."

well, what does that tell you about Gaiseric? another parallel between him and Griffith getting rid of the ancient good magical powers?

The fact humans regrouping themselves in cities become less aware of spiritual matters over time (and the resulting supposition that it might have been the case with Gaiseric's capital) is hardly comparable to Griffith's witchhunt, and alleged wariness of magic users. Now, SK and Flora were good buddies, remember? And we're assuming that SK's Gaiseric here, so that doesn't make sense at all. Also, SK uses these "magical powers" for all we know (his armor), and we know for sure he's used them in the past (Berserk's Armor). So I'm afraid your assertion doesn't stand.

that's why it's so intriguing. it would also add spice to Griffith's story.

The fact it doesn't make sense may be intriguing to you, but its main characteristic remains that it doesn't make sense, and thus is unlikely to be the case. I'm also not sure it'd add spice to Griffith's story, but anyway since Berserk is the story of Guts, adding spice to Griffith's story may not really be necessary. All things considered, it's already pretty spicy and I'm sure already introduced elements such as the Moonlight Boy will spice it up even further down the line.

i thought the translator established that Invocation of Doom actually was the correct translation however silly it sounds.

Well I guess you thought wrong then. It sounds silly because it's pretty silly and incorrect. It's no big deal, but since we know the correct terms I'd prefer that we use them. Also it's not actually the translation for "occultation" but for another line.

if he was a Godhand though, he could have gotten it straight from Idea.

Well, Griffith didn't learn that from the Idea of Evil, at least not when he went there to become Femto.

otherwise i'm lost as to how he could have the knowledge. i don't think he would have lengthy discussions with Void, although it seemed that Void had preached about causality in his presence, i doubt the Godhand would sit down with Skully and bring him up to date. he could have gotten the info from witches or fairies that has a longer lifespan and who could have kept tracks on these incarnations for generations, but then the question remains how could the Godhand have existed for so long and not executed their plan already, or at the very least, left a major mark in history.

Yeah, it's all pretty mysterious. And that's not the only thing, SK's full of mysteries. That's why we love him! :badbone:

no, like the legend says, he appeared seemingly out of nowhere, like Griffith.

It just says there's no previous record of him, which isn't the case of Griffith. There are previous records of him, specifically his accomplishments during the hundred years warn his imprisonment, all that. In fact everybody's waiting for him right now because of the dream. Anyway, I don't think you're getting what I meant. Your numbers just don't correspond. Anyway, in terms of scale an incarnation ceremony looks more likely than a simple Occultation, I mean a huge town was destroyed apparently, sort of like what happened at Albion, while only a few dozens of people where branded for Griffith's Occultation. And the magnitude of the event also tends to disprove what you said about the God Hand or the Idea of Evil being less powerful, I mean the capital of the biggest empire of that time, that's quite something.

Charlotte also says that Gaiseric loved war, celebrating it even, and was called the king who brought death. sounds like an evil person, apostel or godhandish person, no?

No? You need to put that into the context of what Charlotte's saying. Also, this doesn't fit Griffith's description, so the only example of "God Handish" behavior we have directly contradicts this story.

note that Charlotte doesn't specify events as playing out a 1000 years ago exactly. she says the story is "probably a thousand year old story"

In fact she says "around" a thousand.

anything with a body could wear the armor though, doesn't rule out that he wasn't an incarnated Godhand.

You don't know if anyone could wear it. Maybe its Od wouldn't work on a being as powerful as a member of the God Hand. And he'd have had no need for that armor if he had been a member of the God Hand with the associated powers anyway. Especially in regard to his talk with Flora and Zodd on the matter. Honestly it pretty much disproves that possibility because it's made clear he paid a harsh price for it, and that's not compatible with what you're saying.

how do we know Skullknight fights against evil though?

Because he said so, and has done so until now from what we've seen.

if he's Gaiseric, then he loves war just like Zodd.

According to a thousand years old legend. A lot of stuff can happen in a thousand years.

for all we know he could be into all this for the kick of killing off anything

For all we know that's not the case. He's saved people he could have killed or ignored, and that didn't benefit him in any way.

yet Idea told them to "do as they please".

Yeah, only what they want is what it wants so that's kind of a trick, you see? Griffith chose to sacrifice his men, he did it willingly. Only all his life had been manipulated so he'd do it. Same for the rest.

it wouldn't be an idea of evil if it didn't get a kick out of killing anything, even it's own kind.

I'm sorry but I'm going to call bullshit on that one. This isn't going anywhere, you're just making things up. Also, the Idea of Evil doesn't have a "kind" as far as we know. It's unique.

i'm not a Griffith fanboy by a long shot but i still think he's a more flexible and important character than you give him credit for. a sane Casca could unite them again, especially considering that Griffith is now also their child.

Hahaha no, that's not going to happen. Casca uniting Guts and Griffith to fight against the evil God Hand and SK that were secret allies all along? This is bad fan fiction, and it really doesn't help credibilize your theory.

and, no, the other members of the Godhand aren't his team. not exactly. evil "do as they please", they have no team. you could tell by the way Slan talked about the other members. sure they're "allies" for now, but that could change fast. we don't know how tight they are until we hear about the big plan.

Sure they're a team. They're allies and I don't see how that could change, and I don't think you do either. What Slan said doesn't change this. Maybe you expected her to tell SK exactly what they were up to? Mark their locations on a map or something? Whatever you want to believe, they're all part of a plan, and that plan doesn't involve them destroying themselves pointlessly, because otherwise it'd be a pretty stupid plan. We've seen them working together so far, and there's no reason to assume it'll go differently from now on. They're all doing their own thing, Conrad spreads plagues, Slan fuels heretic cults, Griffith wages war (and Void instills a false religion in their hearts so they lose their roots with the spiritual realm??! :isidro:), but in the end, their goals share a common result. That's what we know and can guess from the manga.

he had no chance against Slan in the Qliphoth, and got a serious wound in the process. he pierced her body but it inflicted no damage whatsoever, infact she loved every second of it. it just doesn't look possible.

Told you, we'll see about that. There are lots of stuff that didn't look possible and that still happened.

you're not thinking evil enough. if the Idea/Godhand wasn't as strong before, like i've attempted to suggest, then it would need to fuel it by having a start/reset type scenario.

Sorry, but what you've attempted to suggest isn't supported by anything, and I don't see why a start/reset type scenario would be necessary. There's just no reason to think it would.

why does "pawns" only stop at Ganishka or the Midland King? for all we know they're all pawns.

The God Hand has more freedom, more understanding, and more to gain than others, so its members are clearly less pawnish than them. But you're missing the point here: there'd be no advantage in using a member of the God Hand for this when any insignificant guy could have been enough. Actually it'd be a waste of time and resources like I said, and it'd be useless.

no, they destroyed Gaiseric's capital around -867, coinciding with the birth of Void. the capital was created in -1000 and stood for roughly 130 years.

Yeah well, at least that's what you're supposing, but there's no basis for it.

he probably wasn't much stronger than the others.

Then he couldn't have killed them all, and your theory doesn't make sense.

Void could have helped him, to make sure everything went with Idea's plan.

It seems you're grasping at straws. So Void was tortured by Gaiseric, invoked the God Hand that destroyed his capital, then helped Gaiseric destroy them because that's the Idea of Evil's plan (isn't he supposed to do what he wants, and thus to take revenge on his supposed sworn enemy? And why aren't they allies anymore? And how did he know about the Idea of Evil's plan? It didn't tell Griffith about a plan when he went to see it). It's pretty far-fetched.

he didn't disappear, but he wanted to kill even stronger enemies. he killed the Godhand's, his equals, and got a taste for it. he can't kill the new Godhand's because they're stronger as a result of the process Gaiseric's existence went through.

Then if he didn't disappear, why didn't anybody hear about him after that? His capital was destroyed, but his empire was still there. In all logic he should have arisen, announced he'd have slain his enemies that destroyed his city, and built another one or just relocated his quarters. Also, Gaiseric isn't Zodd, and there's still no reason for him to want to kill them. Besides, wasn't the motive of their death the fact they destroyed his city at the request of the wiseman (and tried to kill him)? Weren't they the ones unhappy with him? You keep changing your version, but that theory completely contradicts itself now. And he killed 4 members of the God Hand, but now he can't kill even one of them? Or even Zodd?

pretty much.

Quite a stupid plan, then. Any reason for the plan to be this stupid?

the "magical" horse Skullknight rides gives more credit to him being a Godhand (the horse is part of his body) otherwise i'm completely lost for what the horse is.

No, the horse doesn't give more credit to the idea that he's part of the God Hand, it gives less credit. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Why would it mean he's an ex-member of the God Hand exactly? They don't have "horses that are part of their bodies." And SK's horse doesn't seem to be part of his body anyway. The good answer is that you're lost about what it is, just like you're lost about the rest.

being of the previous generation, he doesn't have "Godhand powers" in the same sense as the current five. for him a sword and shield is sufficient.

Uhh yeah, so basically he doesn't have powers at all, is that what you're saying? His power is that he has a magical armor and is a skilled warrior basically. Not very impressive for a member of the God Hand, the most powerful of his generation, all that. In fact it doesn't sounds like he's a member of the God Hand at all.

that's because the armor ate away the "flesh" he had incarnated in.

Oh yeah, alright. And why did he wear the armor anyway? He's a member of the God Hand! No need for magical armors, his powers are enough! Right? This isn't convincing man.

when you stick around a witch who lives with fairies you're bound to pick up a few new sents...

Way to make up stuff. So his incredible evil as a member of the God Hand, that should make Guts' brand explode everytimes he's nearby, is completely gone because he sticked with a witch that lived up with elves (they're called elves, not fairies). Honestly I'd take it as a joke if the context was different. You don't even know he sticked around a witch that lived with elves. And what Puck felt and how it was brought up in the story makes it pretty clear it's not something as trivial as having an elfin perfume.

Why is it unlikely that she would affiliate herself with a member of the old Godhand?

I don't know, because of her character, her ideals, her knowledge, what she stands for, etc? It seems pretty obvious to me. Actually it sounds terribly obvious, and I think you're just refusing to admit it. From what she tells Guts in volume 24, does it look like she's friends with someone from the God Hand? No, it doesn't.

i don't think it's any more unlikely than Zodd affiliating himself with a little girl and killing his own kindred.

Well then you're wrong, simply said. It's a lot more unlikely, to the point of being practically impossible. On the other hand, Zodd killing other apostles isn't surprising or unexpected, same with him serving Griffith along with other people, one of them being Sonia.

it has been helpful, and it has made me question my theory a little. but there's still not much else that makes as much sense to me as this theory. but, as you said, we don't know enough to elaborate theories with any kind of certainty.

I'm glad it's been so. Still, I don't think your theory's very coherent or that it really has solid bases. And because you can't think of anything better doesn't make this one right either. It was nice/courageous of you to reply to my line by line quoting, but not really needed as far as defending your theory goes IMHO.

If you want to keep arguing about it, I'd prefer you to stick to this last paragraph. We can ignore the rest of my post for conciseness' sake. Just consider the facts your theory relies on in the manga, and what it's constructed on. Your main premise, that Gaiseric (SK) was a member of the God Hand, is extremely shaky in regard to the material we find in the story so far. To base your theory around that sort of condemns it before you even begin. Sure, it's not 100% certain he isn't a fallen member of the God Hand, but same for him being a robot. It's really unlikely as it stands. Past details and technicalities, the rest of your theory is mostly just a collection of groundless suppositions that you don't mind modifying as new elements are brought to your attention, and that aren't very convincing all things considered. There's also the calculations for the dates of the Occultations, but that's in every theory on the subject anyway. The problem with these is the same now than 3 years ago: the gap between the assumed dates, and the vagueness of all these "thousand years" claims. All in all you have some interesting ideas (which others have also had in the past), but they can't support what you say at all. And honestly, you also have some pretty grotesque ideas in there. Not a big deal, we've all had weird ideas of course. Hell, you should read Walter's Gaiseric fan fiction, it's pretty... creative. :void: Anyway, if you want an earnest advice, try to rework your theory without Gaiseric being part of the God Hand, and it'll be more likely to be right.

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006, 05:57:02 PM »
Ugh, stop the bullshit already; we're up to our eyeballs. This was the topic of literally my first post at BSOM and the difference then was it was actually a still somewhat useful theory at the time. It's been obsolete for years now though (if you have a solid foundation in the story and a base understanding of current events).

That's not to say that it isn't possible, but probably not under the described conditions here, which require an almost a willing ignorance and perversion of facts (or just plain misunderstanding of them) to make it work, making it more fanfiction than speculation. Plus, it having been stated and results being so inconclusive, there's nothing to be learned by going further into probably erroneous speculation. Why not speculate on something fresh like Ganishka, or the possibilities at sea and Elfhelm? Skully is pretty well worn territory and recent info, especially parallels to Guts and his current situation as relating to Skully, really don't lend themselves to this type of theory in the story's current context. This was a fun theory to toss around 10 volumes (and almost that many years) ago.

Anyway, if there's nothing new to be learned from it, and it's just as or more likely to confuse and misinform, then what's the point?

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2006, 03:27:54 PM »
well, my intent with this theory was to spark up a discussion about the probabilities and possibilities. i didn't intend to write a fanfic so to speak, or come up with something completely solid so the rest of you wouldn't have to think, because then it would be hard to avoid the "flawless ground" i attempted to establish with the direction of my idea.

If you want to keep arguing about it, I'd prefer you to stick to this last paragraph. We can ignore the rest of my post for conciseness' sake. Just consider the facts your theory relies on in the manga, and what it's constructed on.

i'll attempt to do so. you can ignore my previous theory because i may contradict what i've said before. there are some things i need to have made clear before i think about this though.

i'm assuming SK is Gaiseric, and the wise man is Void.

First, the numbers. from doing the math we come to the conclusion that Void became a Godhand (the first) 867 years ago. from Charlotte's story we learn that a man named Gaiseric the conqueror appeared in what is a story that is "around 1000 years old". even if the story starts around 1000 years ago (and she clearly starts with Gaiseric appearing) then that doesn't necessarily mean the entire story takes place in the same year. i'd imagine it took a while between the appearance of Gaiseric, his rise to power, his rule as emperor, his imprisonment of the "wise man" to the end of his rule. roughly 130 years for his empire to exist before it's destroyed does not sound like a stretch to me. of course, to be able to live over 100 years Gaiseric had to have been something special, like a Godhand. but for him to be a mere human, and to appear out of nowhere, rule as a ruthless emperor and have his capital destroyed all in one year, exactly 1000 years ago, sounds pretty fantastic to me. it seems you're looking at my 130 years as a gap while i look at it as fleshed out information, making the numbers make sense.

also, i don't know why you think -1083 years would be closer to Charlotte's estimation of the story.

now, for the "angels". i'm pretty sure that they were only 4 because otherwise Miura wouldn't have had Judeau confuse the story by commenting on it. i think the illustration is bull, and just symbolize what Charlotte and the others are visualizing in their head, or how some artist interpreted the story in a book that Charlotte read. whatever. it's not really accurate.

the story tells that Gaiseric's capital disappeared in a single night under clouds and thunder, which pretty much seals the deal that it was the intervention of Godhand. it's also evidenced by the branded corpses at the bottom of the tower. i think we can forget about the elemental kings having anything to do with this.

now, i have decided to scrap the "evil gets stronger over time" idea and that Idea has a plan. i don't think Idea has a plan. instead i will focus on causality, and history as a spiral.

i think that every 1000 years the Godhand of that time recieves a body and the following years they feast on the world. it happened when Gaiseric ruled. however, this period always ends at some point, and the world reverts back to it's former state. at the end of volume 13 the Apostles/Godhand says that "later people shall call this the age of darkness." i emphasize on "later" because it seemed to suggest that the age of darkness will pass and that the Apostles/Godhand already know it, because it's what always happens every 1000 years.

so what happens at the end of the "Age of darkness"? what happened at the end of last time's "Age of Darkness"?

if Gaiseric was a Godhand then last time he, and his capital, and his "era of darkness" was destroyed by the other 4 members of the Godhand. so what would have been the most likely scenario for this to occur?

enter, the wise man.

the wise man, moved to the capital by Gaiseric, was finally going to be put to death when the unsuspected happened. Gaiseric's red Beherit, proudly worn around his neck, fell off and into the hands of the wise man. this process triggered the summoning of the Godhand at the hands of the wise man, who sacrificed the only thing dear to him, Gaiseric's people (not Gaiseric himself). this was within the flow of causality and the sacrifice was granted, but Gaiseric himself was put off by this. suddenly his kindom was destroyed by his own kinsmen. he was overcome with rage and killed them all off, only to be stripped of his Godhand status because of it. the Age of Darkness was over, but Gaiseric would not accept it. he refused to perish in favor of the new generation of Godhand and instead started opposing Godhand by joining with the forces of good and became the friend of Flora. he was human again, and he doesn't like causality very much. note that i think in terms of scale an Occultation could be possible since Griffith's occultation happened over a huge lake, and a city would easily fit within the same Tornado.

as for God, the Holy See don't know it, but they are worshipping Godhand by looking up to:
1. the Hawk
2. the "angels" that punished Gaiseric
3. ignoring/condemning witches and good magic.

i also subscribe to the theory that the Holy See symbol of the Hawk is the same symbol as the brand. the "brand of the hawk". did Gaiseric's generation have "the brand of the Skull" on their victim's? depending on which, we could determine Griffith's role as part of a spiral, or as the coming of age that Godhand has always wished for. there is no basis that he is anything special beyond the other generations of Godhand though, especially if we consider the possibility of the "brand of the Skull".

also, you said that when someone is made a Godhand their soul is destroyed in the process. i would like to state that i don't believe this to be the case. it's been made clear that Apostles still are capable of emotion and good deeds. the Godhand, of course, is a different deal but i still think their souls are corrupt rather than destroyed. look at the current Griffith protecting Casca and Charlotte for example.

Your main premise, that Gaiseric (SK) was a member of the God Hand, is extremely shaky in regard to the material we find in the story so far. To base your theory around that sort of condemns it before you even begin. Sure, it's not 100% certain he isn't a fallen member of the God Hand, but same for him being a robot. It's really unlikely as it stands.
[......]
Anyway, if you want an earnest advice, try to rework your theory without Gaiseric being part of the God Hand, and it'll be more likely to be right.

ok, if Gaiseric isn't a previous Godhand then the theory would have to be rewritten in several places, and alot of problems will appear.

First, the numbers again. from doing the math we come to the conclusion that Void became a Godhand (the first) 867 years ago. if Gaiseric wasn't a Godhand, then he wouldn't have lived for 130 years which means the wise man couldn't have been Void because it would mean that the wise man existed at the time of Gaiseric's rule which then would only have lasted for 1-50 years.

Gaiseric would have been a war celebrating bastard, who had all the love for suffering of an Apostle, while living in an age of Darkness and plagues but still being a human. quite the badass. until his capital becomes the sacrifice of a wise man he imprisoned in the tower, which wasn't Void, that put an end to his rule. something happened to these 4 Godhands but they couldn't have been killed by a human Gaiseric. the wise man, presumably, became a Godhand. who recieved the body? how did they perish? why didn't they put their plan into action if they were now 5 and had gotten rid of Gaiseric (who would have been the Ganishka of that time, except only human) suddenly we have more questions than we started out with.

Also it's not actually the translation for "occultation" but for another line.

which line? what is the correct translation for "Invocation of Doom"?

you should read Walter's Gaiseric fan fiction, it's pretty... creative. :void:

i'll give it a read. where can i find it?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 03:37:20 PM by A.C »

Offline CnC

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2006, 03:33:58 PM »
jeez. Get a room, you two.  Or someplace where you can carry out this sweet quoting love affair away from rolling eyes.

But that aside, there still isn't enough concrete evidence to advance any of these theories beyond (_very_ old )speculation.
I'm sick of following my dreams.  I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later...
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Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2006, 05:05:22 PM »
i'll give it a read. where can i find it?
Well, the original, huge, incomplete one is here: http://www.skullknight.net/fanfics/

The abridged, complete one is here: http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=3941.0

Any criticism on it I can assure you has already been made 10 fold by myself and others across the 6 years since it's been written  :guts:
:femto: :slan: :ubik: