Author Topic: 1000 year incarnation ritual  (Read 7693 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2006, 08:02:25 PM »
i didn't intend to write a fanfic so to speak, or come up with something completely solid so the rest of you wouldn't have to think, because then it would be hard to avoid the "flawless ground" i attempted to establish with the direction of my idea.

The problem here is that your theory has practically no solid ground at all, you see? That's why it's not very strong itself. If it was fan fiction it'd be perfectly Ok. And like CnC justly pointed out, it's all stuff that's been discussed and theorized again and again in the past. In any case, as you can see the "flawless ground" wasn't attained here. I'm sorry but I'm going to extensively quote you again, for clarity's sake about the various points and what I have to say about them. Don't hesitate to just respond to my post as a whole if you want though.

i'm assuming SK is Gaiseric, and the wise man is Void.

Alright. But then, you have to consider that everything about SK in the manga goes against the idea that he's some kind of fallen member of the God Hand. Assuming otherwise decredibilizes your suppositions from the start, and rewording them won't change anything in that regard. I'm not going to keep repeating this if you don't want to hear it, but much like "Griffith no More!" I fail to see the interest in pursuing unlikely scenarios, especially if your intent was originally to make others think about possibilities (as this is all old news). The rest of my comments on your ideas is secondary to this fact, and could even be ruled out as nitpicking on details since this part about SK is so problematic to begin with.

from doing the math we come to the conclusion that Void became a Godhand (the first) 867 years ago

Yes, but as likely as it is, that's still only an assumption (that Void was the wiseman and the first member of the current God Hand).

from Charlotte's story we learn that a man named Gaiseric the conqueror appeared in what is a story that is "around 1000 years old". even if the story starts around 1000 years ago (and she clearly starts with Gaiseric appearing) then that doesn't necessarily mean the entire story takes place in the same year.

I'm sorry but you're again relying on shaky logic here (as well as your interpretation of the English wording in whatever translation you're using). She says the story itself is around a thousand years old. Not the events in it. The story obligatorily appeared after the events it depicts, therefore what you're saying isn't possible.

to be able to live over 100 years Gaiseric had to have been something special, like a Godhand.

Flora wasn't a member of the God Hand, and she's lived far longer. So this doesn't really mean anything, especially since SK's a pretty special character any way you look at it.

also, i don't know why you think -1083 years would be closer to Charlotte's estimation of the story.

I just meant it's closer as far as the gap goes, only 83 years away. It's not really important here.

now, for the "angels". i'm pretty sure that they were only 4 because otherwise Miura wouldn't have had Judeau confuse the story by commenting on it. i think the illustration is bull, and just symbolize what Charlotte and the others are visualizing in their head, or how some artist interpreted the story in a book that Charlotte read. whatever. it's not really accurate.

Well you may be "pretty sure," but that doesn't change what I said. Why Miura wouldn't have "confused" the story? I mean the fact we're still wondering about it so many years after this part of the story was published seems a pretty good reason for him to do it, don't you think? And it's not so much confusing than leaving doors open for more possibilities. Besides if he didn't want it to be confusing, he would have made it so Charlotte said a number without Judo reacting to it. It's alright if you think that illustration's wrong, but in themselves your doubts don't constitute a proof of anything. If Charlotte's recollection about that part is wrong, everything else could also be, and once again, she's by far the most educated on the matter.

the story tells that Gaiseric's capital disappeared in a single night under clouds and thunder, which pretty much seals the deal that it was the intervention of Godhand.

How does it seal anything exactly? Take a look at Griffith's occultation ceremony. The sun was clearly visible in the sky, even during the solar eclipse. There were some clouds, but the sky was mostly clear. Then there's the tornado. These two descriptions don't strike me as very resembling. Anyway, didn't you just say that this description was bullshit? It works for one thing but not for another, eh?

now, i have decided to scrap the "evil gets stronger over time" idea and that Idea has a plan. i don't think Idea has a plan. instead i will focus on causality, and history as a spiral.

But the Idea of Evil does have a plan of some sort from what we can tell, it's not just doing things randomly. And It manipulates causality, so one can't go without the other. Also, causality doesn't equal history.

i think that every 1000 years the Godhand of that time recieves a body and the following years they feast on the world. it happened when Gaiseric ruled.

"They" feast on it? You mean the God Hand as a whole has fun, basically? But then they'd have no reason to try to kill Gaiseric or vice versa, since they all profit from that time, right? Also, how do they feast if they don't have material bodies? And from what we know of Gaiseric's time, he did more good than bad. He united a lot of different factions and put an end to constant wars, and apparently tried to build things, i.e. his capital. After his death, things returned to their previous situation and wars resumed.

however, this period always ends at some point, and the world reverts back to it's former state.

Why? For what reason, and caused by what? If it's recurring, and it "always" ended before, then there's been a super wiseman everytime?

at the end of volume 13 the Apostles/Godhand says that "later people shall call this the age of darkness." i emphasize on "later" because it seemed to suggest that the age of darkness will pass and that the Apostles/Godhand already know it, because it's what always happens every 1000 years.

It's Slan that says so, and that doesn't necessarily imply that age will end. By the way, why haven't we heard of a past age of darkness? Aren't they supposed to be recurring? Because we've never heard of it before, not even in Gaiseric's legend.

the wise man, moved to the capital by Gaiseric, was finally going to be put to death when the unsuspected happened. Gaiseric's red Beherit, proudly worn around his neck, fell off and into the hands of the wise man. this process triggered the summoning of the Godhand at the hands of the wise man, who sacrificed the only thing dear to him, Gaiseric's people (not Gaiseric himself). this was within the flow of causality and the sacrifice was granted, but Gaiseric himself was put off by this. suddenly his kindom was destroyed by his own kinsmen. he was overcome with rage and killed them all off, only to be stripped of his Godhand status because of it. the Age of Darkness was over, but Gaiseric would not accept it. he refused to perish in favor of the new generation of Godhand and instead started opposing Godhand by joining with the forces of good and became the friend of Flora. he was human again, and he doesn't like causality very much.

Hahaha, now this is what I call fan fiction. So the wiseman was moved from Albion to the capital, right? That directly contradicts what Mozgus told Farnese about it. Also, Gaiseric still had his beherit? That's very strange, because Griffith lost his during the Eclipse, and haven't had it since. Not that he would have needed it as Femto anyway. I don't see how Gaiseric could possibly have had a beherit at that time according to your theory. You're also once again saying that there were 6 members of the God Hand. Being incarnated doesn't mean you're out of the club, it's not a demotion. If Void became a member then he was the sixth, since Gaiseric was the fifth. This doesn't make sense. Anyway, we're told by the legend that Gaiseric's capital was destroyed by the elements. So alright, the people died, but why the city? And everybody in the city died? That makes a lot of people. Now, you're talking about a kingdom being destroyed. First off, Gaiseric was an emperor, not a king. Second, it's only the capital he had built that was destroyed, or are you suggesting it was otherwise? In that case it would contradict the legend as well as historical evidence in general.

Now, the part about some members of the God Hand attacking their comrade still doesn't make sense, and never will I'm afraid. Same about how he killed them all by himself after they destroyed the city, but spared the newest member for some unknown reason. I'd also like to know how he was "stripped" of his status, since he just did as he wanted. That's the rule, right? And why would he be stripped of his power since he just defended himself anyway? He's not the one that fucked up here. Also, once again, that "age of darkness" during Gaiseric's reign isn't mentioned anywhere. Rather, his rule put an end to constant wars, and there was "feasting" and all that if I'm following you. Apart from that, are the "forces of good" supposed to be idiots? Why would they allow one as evil as that guy in their ranks (assuming they have ranks or exist at all as a coherent group)? Also, Flora's story with SK seems to have begun early from what he told Guts and Schierke, not after 150 years and an end of the world. He even compares the two of them with Guts and Schierke. That doesn't really support what you're saying. And it's still extremely unlikely that Flora would ally herself with an ex-member of the God Hand, no matter what happened to him. Lastly, why would SK hate causality? It's not like it's a living entity or something, and he talks about it in completely different terms from what you seem to imply. That makes your whole argument look dubious in regard to what's in the manga.

note that i think in terms of scale an Occultation could be possible since Griffith's occultation happened over a huge lake, and a city would easily fit within the same Tornado.

That's tornado huge, but it doesn't look like it englobed the whole lake. Nevertheless, I disagree about the capital of an empire spanning a whole continent "easily fitting" inside it. Also, that once again contradicts the legend, both the illustration and the description of what happened. And in terms of human scale, a few dozen soldiers can't compare with thousands of people.

as for God, the Holy See don't know it, but they are worshipping Godhand by looking up to:
1. the Hawk

That symbol represents Griffith at best, not the God Hand itself. And it was around long before Griffith was born. Anyway, that doesn't equal to worshipping the God Hand at all. They worship a fictitious God, like I said, and from all the indications we have it's a monotheist religion. So no, they don't worship the God Hand, no matter how you look at it.

2. the "angels" that punished Gaiseric

Who said they worship these angels? Mozgus just mentions it as a story about the tower, nothing more. The angels in question aren't defined, and we're not even sure those that destroyed Gaiseric's capital were the God Hand anyway. Are you justifying assumptions with other assumptions here? What's sure is that the 4 elemental kings are in their scriptures. This can't be said of the God Hand.

3. ignoring/condemning witches and good magic.

They condemn witches, but then again Flora told Farnese she never took the life of a real witch. And their scriptures actually mention elemental beings (magic), only under different names. As far as good magic goes, that's also debatable. Trolls aren't what I'd call good magic, nor Ganishka's displays of sorcery. In an effort to protect themselves, out of fear and such, they could have gotten to condemn any kind of magic over time. And does that benefit the God Hand? Slan fuels heretic cults (which the Holy See pursues restlessly, and which is where they get their "witches") and seems pretty familiar with trolls are ogres.

did Gaiseric's generation have "the brand of the Skull" on their victim's?

No they didn't. That doesn't really support your theory. It doesn't really make sense either anyway. The Brand is the Brand, there's only one. And it was already like that before Void became part of the God Hand, still following what you say. The branded skulls at the bottom of the pit are the proof.

depending on which, we could determine Griffith's role as part of a spiral, or as the coming of age that Godhand has always wished for. there is no basis that he is anything special beyond the other generations of Godhand though, especially if we consider the possibility of the "brand of the Skull".

Well, the "brand of the skull" is not really a valid possibility anyway. All of this has already been discussed in the past.

also, you said that when someone is made a Godhand their soul is destroyed in the process.

Uhhh no, I didn't.

the Godhand, of course, is a different deal but i still think their souls are corrupt rather than destroyed. look at the current Griffith protecting Casca and Charlotte for example.

If their souls were destroyed then they wouldn't exist. I think you're a bit confused here. Also, "Griffith" protected Casca because the Demon Child in him made him do it. He was surprised at his own actions, and suddenly decided to leave after it happened. It's not like good old Femto in there saved her life out of sympathy. Also, for all we know he took Charlotte with him because she's a useful tool to become king, we have yet to see what he'll do with her in the future. This all doesn't prove anything in particular, except that Griffith's story is pretty spicy.

ok, if Gaiseric isn't a previous Godhand then the theory would have to be rewritten in several places, and alot of problems will appear.

Well yeah, that's why it's hard to come up with a solid theory on what happened.

if Gaiseric wasn't a Godhand, then he wouldn't have lived for 130 years

He could have lived long for another reason. And similarly, we don't know for sure that an incarnated member of the God Hand can live longer than a normal man.

Gaiseric would have been a war celebrating bastard, who had all the love for suffering of an Apostle, while living in an age of Darkness and plagues but still being a human.

Ok, I think I forgot to point this out in my previous post (or not?), but you're basing yourself on mistranslations here. Gaiseric wasn't a "war celebrating bastard," what does that even mean? In the legend it's said that there are no documents left mentioning his past, and that he was called "the emperor who brought death" because he was merciless to his enemies (What general isn't? Oh yeah, the new Griffith, the eternal exception.), but also because he always wore a skull helmet in battle. That's all. And his reign brought an end to the fighting, so after that there's no talk of plagues, of "love for suffering," or of an "age of darkness." As far as we know, the only bad thing about him was the heavy taxes and the torture of the wiseman (assuming the wiseman didn't deserve it). The city was apparently decadent, but that's nothing out of the ordinary for normal men.

until his capital becomes the sacrifice of a wise man he imprisoned in the tower

I'm still wondering about that wiseman's reason for loving that city so much though. Maybe he was its architect or something? The city only being collateral damage to the execution of thousands of citizens seems strange to me. Whatever though.

something happened to these 4 Godhands but they couldn't have been killed by a human Gaiseric. the wise man, presumably, became a Godhand. who recieved the body? how did they perish? why didn't they put their plan into action if they were now 5 and had gotten rid of Gaiseric (who would have been the Ganishka of that time, except only human) suddenly we have more questions than we started out with.

Pretty much. And the fact SK is most probably not an ex-member of the God Hand makes it all the more complicated.

which line? what is the correct translation for "Invocation of Doom"?

I'm going to quote myself out of laziness here:

Its meaning literally is "Ceremony of Calling Down Evil," which can also be translated as "Ceremony of Calling Evil" or "Ceremony of Invoking Evil." There's the word ceremony in it which isn't in Dark Horse's translation for some reason, and the kanji used for evil is "魔" and just means evil, devil, demon, etc but not "doom." So to answer your question, there's no connotation in Japanese that could lead someone to translate it like that.

As for where it appears, it's the line Walter's avatar speaks in volume 12. Look for that picture. Void also says so in volume 3, after Femto blasts Guts in a wall.

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2006, 02:19:59 PM »
before any decent theory can be formulated, there's some things we should agree on first. and i think we can agree on a few things.

first, the point is that before 867 years ago, none of the current members of the Godhand existed. yet we are still told several times that Godhand has been in existence far longer than it's current members. if it weren't for the comment that every 216 years, the birth of a demon lord occur, then the easy guess would have been that it happens every 1000 years or something. now we are forced to come to the conclusion that either the Godhand existed (without members) for thousands of years, or there were previous members but they disappeared somehow.

now, is there any hint to any previous members of the Godhand?

yes there is. the 4 angels in the story about Gaiseric.

it seems that you don't agree that this is a solid hint. but i'm pretty convinced that it is. here are the 3 different possibilities, and please let me know if any other comes to mind that i didn't bring up.

1. the angels that destroyed Gaiseric's capital was members of the Godhand. if you believe this then you must acknowledge that they were a previous generation of some kind. you would also be aware that for them to have a reason to appear there must have been a sacrifice/occultation. if it was a sacrifice then there must only have been 4 members, because otherwise there wouldn't be room for a fifth one to rise. if, on the other hand, it wasn't an occultation, but some kind of destructive plan the Godhand decided for themselves, then what were those branded corpses at the bottom of the tower? they must have been sacrificed by Gaiseric himself then, making him a member of the Godhand. if you don't believe that he was ever a Godhand, then what destroyed his empire was an Occultation and the birth of the Fifth member of that time.

2. the angels that destroyed Gaiseric's capital was the Elemental Kings. again, they must only have been 4 angels if this was the case. however, the angels being the Elemental Kings seems extremely unlikely because, firstly, it wouldn't explain the corpses. unless they were sacrificed by Gaiseric, making him a member of the Godhand (which you clearly don't subscribe to.) and, secondly, why would Gaiseric seek revenge on the Godhand if his capital was destroyed by something else? even worse, why would he ally himself with these very forces and Flora if it was that type of magic that destroyed his capital?

3. the angels that destroyed Gaiseric's capital was something else. again that doesn't explain why there are branded corpses in the tower, or why Gaiseric would seek revenge on the Godhand if something else destroyed his capital? unless, you know, he was a member of the Godhand in the first place.

i think that at some point, whether or not we believe Gaiseric to be a former Godhand or not, that we should at least agree that the 4 angels were former members of the Godhand. to me it has been pretty clear that this is the case for quite a while, and i was never "still wondering about it so many years after this part of the story was published"... infact, i'd say that the reason Miura put in the story about the 4 angels just 2 volumes before the eclipse makes me think that it was meant to be foreshadowing until we learn what the real Angels are like when we see them in this very ceremony during vol 12/13.

that's also the reason i think why Miura hasn't touched on this subject since that volume. because we should already have gotten the hint.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2006, 07:59:19 PM »
we are still told several times that Godhand has been in existence far longer than it's current members.

Are we? I don't think so. It's never explicitly said.

Godhand existed (without members) for thousands of years

Well that's not really possible. I mean without members there's just no God Hand...

yes there is. the 4 angels in the story about Gaiseric.

Dude, I don't think you should keep insisting on this "4 members" thing. We're told they're 5, with a doubt that they have may been 4. Possibly. However, by all means the default assumption should be 5. Charlotte's history books seem a more reliable source of information than a tale Judo heard from some guy once. Now, if you want a semi-plausible reason for the different versions about the number of angels in the tale, it could be because they were 4 at the beginning of the event and 5 at the end (assuming it'd be an occultation ceremony). That's far-fetched, but better than what you came up with so far.

1. the angels that destroyed Gaiseric's capital was members of the Godhand. if you believe this then you must acknowledge that they were a previous generation of some kind.

Yeah. That's a likely possibility. Not sure, but likely. In any case, some things remain strange and unexplained, even with that hypothesis.

you would also be aware that for them to have a reason to appear there must have been a sacrifice/occultation. [...] if, on the other hand, it wasn't an occultation, but some kind of destructive plan the Godhand decided for themselves, then what were those branded corpses at the bottom of the tower?

A sacrifice doesn't necessarily require an Eclipse. Apostles need sacrifices too. Anyway, it's all a question of point of view. Who knows what the GH will be capable of in the future, with the layers of the world merging? You use the word "must" a little too much. And following your hypothesis, it happened before, right? Then that could have been what happened, assuming the 5 angels of the legend refer to a completed God Hand. I don't believe a fifth member appearing at that time would make sense with the numbers (still following your theory), so I'll leave it at that. Concerning the branded corpses, there are a few problems with them no matter how you look at it, that seem to hint at a situation different from those we've witnessed so far. I'll detail that later since you often refer to it.

they must have been sacrificed by Gaiseric himself then, making him a member of the Godhand.

Why? It could have been anyone, and if you want to be extreme, it could have been anterior or posterior to the capital's destruction (or even simultaneous but unrelated). By the way, it seems strange that none of those that went down the pit to explore it ever came back, don't you think?

if you don't believe that he was ever a Godhand, then what destroyed his empire was an Occultation and the birth of the Fifth member of that time.

But the description of the event doesn't sound like an occultation. Also, that's supposed to have happened in -867, right? Because then, if that God Hand was later destroyed, we'd currently only have 4 members.

2. the angels that destroyed Gaiseric's capital was the Elemental Kings. again, they must only have been 4 angels if this was the case. however, the angels being the Elemental Kings seems extremely unlikely because, firstly, it wouldn't explain the corpses.

Then again, an Occultation like Griffith's wouldn't explain the corpses either. Why are they all branded on the forehead? The Brand strikes any part of the body from what we've seen, with no particular preference. That means these bodies were branded differently. And why are they intact, and appear to have died because of the city's destruction? There were no apostles to eat them it seems. Also, why's the city underground? When an Eclipse occurs, people are brought to another dimension, how come the whole city would have collapsed as a result then? Besides that doesn't really match the description the legend gives (which sounds a bit more like what happened during Femto's incarnation). Interesting to remember that this hole has been there for very long, too.

unless they were sacrificed by Gaiseric, making him a member of the Godhand (which you clearly don't subscribe to.)

Well it's not a matter of what I subscribe to or not. It's just very unlikely no matter how you look at it. I'm only giving you stuff to think about here, I'm not the one trying to solve the great mystery. :void: Anyway, why unless they were sacrificed by Gaiseric? They could have been sacrificed by someone else. Besides in what year would that be, according to your theory? This seems to pose a problem.

and, secondly, why would Gaiseric seek revenge on the Godhand if his capital was destroyed by something else? even worse, why would he ally himself with these very forces and Flora if it was that type of magic that destroyed his capital?

Who said SK seeks revenge on the God Hand? All we know is that he opposes them. The closest to that statement would be that he has "a grudge on inhuman beings." And considering all the material we have in the manga on that question, if he were to be seeking revenge, the most logical reason would be the same than Guts. Not that ex-member of God Hand thing. Now again, it's not like the details of that destruction or its motives are very clear, it's evident there's more to it than what we know. And what about the "forces of good?" We've yet to see a coherent group worthy of that name, it's just a vague denomination that doesn't appear in the manga. Who said SK is the ally of the 4 elemental kings anyway? They're elemental beings, I don't think they care much about human matters. Apparently they'll intervene if someone summons them, plain and simple (unlike the God Hand). It's the caster invoking them that'd be responsible for his (mis)use of their power. Still following that line of thought, you should consider the possibility that Gaiseric may have already been Flora's friend before he became emperor. Magic was probably more present back then, and more people could use it. That also works if we consider an unknown group of other creatures responsible.

i think that at some point, whether or not we believe Gaiseric to be a former Godhand or not, that we should at least agree that the 4 angels were former members of the Godhand. to me it has been pretty clear that this is the case for quite a while, and i was never "still wondering about it so many years after this part of the story was published"... infact, i'd say that the reason Miura put in the story about the 4 angels just 2 volumes before the eclipse makes me think that it was meant to be foreshadowing until we learn what the real Angels are like when we see them in this very ceremony during vol 12/13.

You know, it's not a matter of agreeing on anything here, it's all about being sure or not, and relying on something as a definite proof when it's not. It's currently quite likely that Gaiseric became SK, and that SK wasn't part of the God Hand. It's also not clear what the angels of the legend were, or whether that legend is accurate in the first place. Because it says things happened one way it doesn't mean they really did, it's pretty risky to take it as a verbatim and objective account of these events. What about Mozgus' story for example? He told Farnese it happened in Albion while a wiseman was tortured, that's quite a contradiction. Also, we're still wondering whether there were 4 or 5 angels, that's what I was talking about. So of course it's a likely possibility, but it's not sure beyond the shadow of a doubt. And at the same time, your insistance to consider them 4 and not 5 is unfounded and based on uncertainty. What you're saying is that it's possible they were 4, because Judo heard a different version of this story (from a source we can easily assume is less reliable). So in the same vein, it's possible they weren't the God Hand.

As for seeing what the "angels" are like, I'd like to remind you that we already did see the God Hand very clearly, in volume 3. We knew the Eclipse would happen, and we knew that they were 5. Like a hand, you know, with 5 fingers. Like the angels in the tale, too. And we also saw them again appearing to Griffith earlier in volume 10. Apart from that anyway, what happened to Gaiseric's capital, the reasons given, and the form in which it was supposedly executed, don't really correspond with what happened during Griffith's ascension as Femto. Nobody was punished, and while people were branded and eaten, nothing was destroyed since it was happening in another dimension. At the bottom of the tower we can see corpses that are intact (i.e. not eaten, meaning no apostles were there), and that apparently died because the city was destroyed, massively crushed by buildings, etc. It doesn't fit. If the God Hand had punished Gaiseric at the request of someone, he would have been sacrificed himself. That's their style, they're not hitmen. Miura's illustration of the destruction also represents it as clearly not being the God Hand's work, while he could have left it ambiguous if he wanted to. This isn't insignificant.

All of this spells one word: uncertainty. And uncertainty doesn't prove theories right.

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2006, 09:59:14 AM »
All of this spells one word: uncertainty. And uncertainty doesn't prove theories right.

i'm not trying to prove my theory right, you misunderstand. rather, i'm in the process of formulating a hypothesis that takes all the info revealed so far into account and then attempt to fill in the rest with a possible scenario.

it's never explicitly said that Godhand has been in existence far longer than 867 years but there are hints, like Skullknight's comment that every 1000 years the Godhand recieve a body.

Well that's not really possible. I mean without members there's just no God Hand...

well, the members are actually called the Guardian Angels of the God Hand which seems to suggest that the members are not it's actual body. there's that giant hand that appeared during the Eclipse too... and Idea.

Dude, I don't think you should keep insisting on this "4 members" thing. We're told they're 5, with a doubt that they have may been 4. Possibly.

since we at least agree that it is a possibility, i'm going to assume that they were 4 or 5, and that they were guardian angels of the Godhand. i don't have proof, but i'm sticking with this for my theory because it doesn't contradict the manga and it isn't that far-fetched either. i might actually stick with the number 5 if i manage to flesh out the Incarnation idea.

Now, if you want a semi-plausible reason for the different versions about the number of angels in the tale, it could be because they were 4 at the beginning of the event and 5 at the end (assuming it'd be an occultation ceremony). That's far-fetched, but better than what you came up with so far.

yeah, that's not bad actually. mind if i work with this idea in my theory? if i'm going to move away from the "Gaiseric is a God Hand" idea then this theory would fall in line with my other idea.

now here is another reason why i believe in the previous generation of the God Hand idea; in volume 24 Guts asks Flora if she know of the Beherit and she replies that "anyone who has aspired to, or has researched magic thoroughly should know of it." and goes on to say that "With this, you can call the five Angels".

now, apart from resonating with the story/quote about the wise man calling some Angels and the 5 Angels in Charlotte's story, we know for sure that the current Guardians have not been "five" for more than 3 years. now, if everyone who studied magic before learned of five, and Flora learned of five, then they most certainly have been five before.

A sacrifice doesn't necessarily require an Eclipse. Apostles need sacrifices too.

well, the story seems more grandiose than a mere Apostle's sacrifice. i think an Occultation is still possible, but it could also have been something special we have not yet witnessed. in the case of an Incarnation ceremony, for some reason, i don't see an Egg Beherit sacrificing the world everytime a God Hand is Incarnated so everything could have been different. i'm thinking that while the Egg Beherit sacrificed the world, something back then sacrificed Gaiseric's capital.

By the way, it seems strange that none of those that went down the pit to explore it ever came back, don't you think?

yes, it could be that, in the case of an Incarnation ceremony, such ghosts (like those that swallowed the tower) are still lurking around down there. or the previous members of the Godhand, or the one who was incarnated could still reign down there. the entire capital is supposed to be down there.

But the description of the event doesn't sound like an occultation. Also, that's supposed to have happened in -867, right? Because then, if that God Hand was later destroyed, we'd currently only have 4 members.

right now i'm leaning towards the Incarnation hypothesis and therefore this happened in -1000.

Because it says things happened one way it doesn't mean they really did, it's pretty risky to take it as a verbatim and objective account of these events. What about Mozgus' story for example? He told Farnese it happened in Albion while a wiseman was tortured, that's quite a contradiction.

he didn't say that it happened in Albion. only that the wise man was in Albion when he prayed to God. i'm thinking he was in Albion, while the Angels appeared in Midland. how some people would come to connect the appearance of Angels in Midland to the prayer of a man locked in a tower in Albion remains a mystery though.

it's hard to make sense out of all this. another strange thing is the nature of the God Hand. at once they were all human, according to Flora, but for that they sure look messed up. especially Conrad and Ubik. i'm thinking Skullknight has witnessed all of their birth's, and if we ever learn anything about them it will be through stories told by Skullknight. maybe we can figure something out based on their themes. you know, almost every character has a theme in Berserk;

Femto, theme: Hawk (past: Griffith)
Guts, theme: Dog (present: The Beast)
Gaiseric, theme: Skull (present: Skullknight)
Void, theme: Brain (past: a Wise man?)
Slan, theme: Angel (past: a Good or Holy person?)
Ubik, theme: Turtle (past: Slow person nicknamed "the turtle" lost all his limbs?)
Conrad, theme: Lobster (past: Fisherman drowned in the sea and eaten by Lobster?)

you see how wierd it gets when you get to the last two? i think Miura will do the easy thing and leave their pasts in the dark...
« Last Edit: November 10, 2006, 08:36:25 PM by A.C »

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2006, 08:22:51 PM »
A.C., you're really starting to pull things out of your ass at this point. The earth is not flat, trust me.

I'm not going to do a quote fest. I'll just point out errors I've caught while reading through your recent post. Please try to keep up and read carefully.

The 1000 year incarnation ceremony, as told by Skull Knight, is not limited to members of the God Hand. It is for "beings of heavenly spheres." If he meant only God Hand, he would have said so.

Your argument about the God Hand being protectors of a giant hand is pure semantics. They are the guardian angels - the God Hand. Clearly they revolve around the Idea of evil, so you could say that's what they're "guarding." But it's really reaching to say they're "guarding" the God Hand...

As for Flora saying "with that, you can call the five angels," she very likely said so because of all the characters in the series, she is one of the most "in-the-know." She even knew Guts was sacrificed by Griffith... It's not like she's pulling from her history lessons when she says there's 5 God Hand. That's proving her current knowledge.

The alleged previous God Hand would not be lurking around at the bottom of the Tower as ghosts do... they're higher beings, with souls of a completely different nature than average humans.

Also, the Beast doesn't simply have dog features. It's an amalgamation of many creatures, including a shark, a wolf, and... VENOM  :chomp:  Your theme paragraph is really off the wall. These characters can't be simplified to an animal or abstract concept you know. Void's theme is a brain? Slan's an angel? Gross  :miura:
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2006, 08:55:03 PM »
The 1000 year incarnation ceremony, as told by Skull Knight, is not limited to members of the God Hand. It is for "beings of heavenly spheres." If he meant only God Hand, he would have said so.

this is news to me, and not what it says in the bubble on page 199 of vol. 18 that you refered me to earlier.

the fantranslated quote i have is: "When the strong thought exceeds the boundary, the beings that belong to God Hand... can only get a body once every 1000 years..."

since the members of the God Hand are the ones performing the ritual, i don't see how they would grant this privilege to other "beings of heavenly spheres" (whatever those are.) either way, we are still in the dark of what recieved a body when Gaiseric's capital fell.

and the Beast is a Shark? isn't that just as gross as any of my suggestions. ok, so he isn't a Dog exactly, but his theme is the Beast. Void's theme is his mind and Slan's theme is an Angel, that's very apparent. the Turtle/Lobster thing was mostly a joke though.

Offline CnC

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2006, 09:26:48 PM »
and the Beast is a Shark? isn't that just as gross as any of my suggestions. ok, so he isn't a Dog exactly, but his theme is the Beast. Void's theme is his mind and Slan's theme is an Angel, that's very apparent. the Turtle/Lobster thing was mostly a joke though.

What about Venom?  That's less gross?  I think you're missing the point.

You're speculating on speculations.  Its really long-winded and ultimately leads nowhere.
Apparently your original speculations are based on bad translations, which make any subsequent long-winded speculation likely false.

This topic should have ended after Aaz and Walter answered Dekant, its been dragged out way too long based on your not having a good translation.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2006, 01:44:28 AM »
i'm not trying to prove my theory right, you misunderstand. rather, i'm in the process of formulating a hypothesis that takes all the info revealed so far into account and then attempt to fill in the rest with a possible scenario.

Oh, I'm aware you're not trying to prove your former theory right, I'm just telling you that based on the information available we can't ascertain the truth of a possibility over another. There's no need for such long posts to sum up the little information we have, you know, and it's not like it's never been done before either.

well, the members are actually called the Guardian Angels of the God Hand which seems to suggest that the members are not it's actual body. there's that giant hand that appeared during the Eclipse too... and Idea.

They're called the Guardian Angels of Desire. And the members themselves form the God Hand. It's like an organisation if you want. As you can see in volume 3, they reside in a weird dimension where no actual hand is present, it's simply a metaphor. They are the "hand" of God (the Idea of Evil), its agents. What we see during the Eclipse is merely a stylish pedestal for them to stand on (or an altar if you want, whatever), it serves no other purpose that we can see in the manga. This is all pretty clear if you pay attention to the story of course, they are the God Hand. As for the Idea of Evil, I have no idea why you're mentioning it in this case. Are you suggesting the Idea of Evil is the God Hand or something? It seems you've really got a problem with translations if stuff like this has to be explained. Besides, you've been calling each member a "God Hand" so far, individually, so why this sudden change?

since we at least agree that it is a possibility, i'm going to assume that they were 4 or 5, and that they were guardian angels of the Godhand. i don't have proof, but i'm sticking with this for my theory because it doesn't contradict the manga and it isn't that far-fetched either. i might actually stick with the number 5 if i manage to flesh out the Incarnation idea.

Sure, whatever floats your boat. It's a possibility of course, and a well-worn one at that. Nothing new here.

yeah, that's not bad actually. mind if i work with this idea in my theory?

Be my guest.

well, the story seems more grandiose than a mere Apostle's sacrifice.

Yeah, obviously. I was just pointing out to you the fact that "sacrifice" isn't a synonym of "occultation."

in the case of an Incarnation ceremony, for some reason, i don't see an Egg Beherit sacrificing the world everytime a God Hand is Incarnated so everything could have been different. i'm thinking that while the Egg Beherit sacrificed the world, something back then sacrificed Gaiseric's capital.

It's possible that someone sacrificed something in a similar fashion, that's a good point. You should know that the Beherit-Apostle says he sacrificed the "world around him" if you want to be specific, though. That's a case that could have realistically applied to Gaiseric's capital. Maybe it was the wiseman? He called the angels, just like the Beherit-Apostle did. But then that would mean the wiseman himself played only a limited part, he couldn't be Void.

yes, it could be that, in the case of an Incarnation ceremony, such ghosts (like those that swallowed the tower) are still lurking around down there. or the previous members of the Godhand, or the one who was incarnated could still reign down there.

Ghosts are likely. Maybe even an apostle or two, why not. It's pretty unlikely that it'd be former members of the God Hand though. It's not like they'd be trapped in there or something, that doesn't work.

right now i'm leaning towards the Incarnation hypothesis and therefore this happened in -1000.

Ok.

he didn't say that it happened in Albion. only that the wise man was in Albion when he prayed to God. i'm thinking he was in Albion, while the Angels appeared in Midland. how some people would come to connect the appearance of Angels in Midland to the prayer of a man locked in a tower in Albion remains a mystery though.

Yeah, and I don't see why they'd appear in another place. That doesn't make sense in regard to what we've seen so far. Such a thing never happened basically, they always come to the one that invokes them. Or rather, the one that invokes them is brought to them by his beherit.

it's hard to make sense out of all this. another strange thing is the nature of the God Hand. at once they were all human, according to Flora, but for that they sure look messed up. especially Conrad and Ubik.

Well I don't think there's a reason to doubt their former humanity. We've seen the rise of Griffith/Femto, it's safe to assume the others had a similar fate. Other than that, I don't think Conrad and Ubik are particularly more messed up than the others. They're all a bunch of freaks.

maybe we can figure something out based on their themes. you know, almost every character has a theme in Berserk;

Femto, theme: Hawk (past: Griffith)
Guts, theme: Dog (present: The Beast)
Gaiseric, theme: Skull (present: Skullknight)
Void, theme: Brain (past: a Wise man?)
Slan, theme: Angel (past: a Good or Holy person?)
Ubik, theme: Turtle (past: Slow person eaten by a turtle?)
Conrad, theme: Lobster (past: Fisherman drowned in the sea and eaten by Lobster?)

you see how crappy it gets when you get to the last two? i think Miura will do the easy thing and leave their pasts in the dark...

I don't think "almost every character" in Berserk has a theme, I don't think your themes are particularly well chosen, and I don't think we can really learn something pertinent from them. Guts has the Beast, but that's not really a theme or a symbol (though it might become one eventually if he keeps wearing the armor with the helmet on). Skull Knight's main feature is his skull helmet, alright, but that's also not his emblem (the rose and thorns?). And is Femto's "theme" a Hawk? It definitely is Griffith's emblem, but does Femto himself look like a Hawk, physically? Hardly. I don't think we'd be able to say "Hawk" for sure if we didn't already know it. So now what about Void? He's got a big brain, Ok, but what about the rest? He also has incredibly long arms and 12 fingers, does that make him a pianist or something (just like in Gattaca!)? And what about his face or his weird collar? That brain theme idea seems simplistic, not to mention that having a hypertrophied brain doesn't make people wiser. Next there's Slan. She's more like a succubus than an angel, by far. And she has tendrils for hair. That's pretty much the opposite of "holy" (and let's not start about her personality or affiliations).

As for Ubik and Conrad, don't draw conclusions based on your lack of inspiration please... I don't see how they're supposed to be resembling a turtle or a lobster (and actually Conrad would be more of a turtle than Ubik, but whatever, let's just say it was a joke), and I don't think Miura will leave their past in the dark because it's easy or whatever. If you want defining characteristics, what about Ubik's constant grin and his sunglasses-like eyes? And his floating and ability to see and show the past? Not to mention his size, he's not shaped like a normal man. As for Conrad, his open mouth, 4 fingers and weird body shape are strange too. Because they look peculiar doesn't mean they're unimportant or that Miura's clueless about them. If anything that only makes them more mysterious and interesting to me. Anyway, I'm not sure what help this "theme" speculation could bring to the matter at hand. Especially considering how little we know about the God Hand.

not what it says in the bubble on page 199 of vol. 18 that you refered me to earlier.

What did I tell you about translations? The words "God Hand" (or "ゴッド・ハンド" if you prefer) aren't in that particular bubble. Not that I think it matters much personally, but you shouldn't try to argue about the choice of words if you don't have reliable source material.

and the Beast is a Shark? isn't that just as gross as any of my suggestions.

Well actually no, it isn't. The Beast of Darkness clearly has shark-like features, and some of the imagery in the manga makes it pretty obvious, like when Guts' helmet crawls on his back under his cape like a shark under the surface of the sea.

Void's theme is his mind and Slan's theme is an Angel, that's very apparent.

Sorry, but I don't think it is.

Offline A.C

Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2006, 11:00:12 AM »
This topic should have ended after Aaz and Walter answered Dekant, its been dragged out way too long based on your not having a good translation.

lol,ok yeah.. but Walter said that we shouldn't hesitate to ask questions and that you guys always love a good discussion.

They're called the Guardian Angels of Desire. And the members themselves form the God Hand. It's like an organisation if you want.

thanks. that makes sense. it was the Guardian thing that confused me.

Yeah, and I don't see why they'd appear in another place. [....] the one that invokes them is brought to them by his beherit.

so then, we can assume that the wiseman was brought to the Guardian Angels of Desire, then something happened (basically a sacrifice) and then the Angels appeared in the physical world and destroyed Gaiseric's capital in one night.

I don't think Conrad and Ubik are particularly more messed up than the others. They're all a bunch of freaks.

freaks, yes. but i don't see an equal "messed up" factor here. first, out of the five, Slan looks almost normal... with only her hair and wings bugging me. but that's demon for you. otherwise she looks pretty healthy with a normal physique and showing alot of intact flesh.

secondly, Femto looks pretty normal too, with restored physique albeit maybe not made of flesh but exoskeleton and wings, same as Slan.

then, Void, who looks really messed up but still has the appearance of a humanoid, although his arms are extened and he now has more fingers.

then, Conrad and Ubik who no longer have a humanoid appearance but look more like "creatures" with a humanoid face.

And is Femto's "theme" a Hawk? It definitely is Griffith's emblem, but does Femto himself look like a Hawk, physically? Hardly. I don't think we'd be able to say "Hawk" for sure if we didn't already know it.

i think i would. the helmet is a dead give away. the wings are your basic demon design (which should therefor be ignored) but suggests a "winged" creature like a Hawk none the less. he is the dark Hawk.

So now what about Void? He's got a big brain, Ok, but what about the rest?

the rest is irrelevant. that's why it's mostly covered by his cloak and the fact that there may not be anything more under it, apart from arms. the collar is designed like a plate to display his enormous brain: his most prominent feature.

Next there's Slan. She's more like a succubus than an angel, by far. And she has tendrils for hair. That's pretty much the opposite of "holy" (and let's not start about her personality or affiliations).

right now she does look like a succubus, but don't let that decieve you. the pale skin and black leather looking exoskeleton thing is the basic "God hand member design" and doesn't have much to do with her human theme unless it has a specific form. she has wings, but unlike Femto she doesn't have a bird theme. rather, she has goddess theme and the feathery wings that you see when she first appeared during the eclipse and her appearance during the heretics orgy suggests an Angel theme.

As for Ubik and Conrad, don't draw conclusions based on your lack of inspiration please...

right, but if i'm going to be more serious here, i'm thinking they are inspired by some japanese mythology theme.

and, no... this doesn't help us figure out what the Godhand is, but it could give some interesting clues to their previous human nature. for example, Slan's flesh and human body is mostly intact... making me think her "fall" from an angel to demon was mostly psychological... while Void was heavily tortured as a wise man, and Conrad and Ubik's human nature could possibly be deciphered from japanese mythology (or even pop-culture) material.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2006, 11:59:47 AM by A.C »

Offline Walter

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2006, 11:25:41 AM »
Straws... grasping... you.

While I did say anyone's welcome to ask questions, you essentially haven't asked us a question since page 1. You've been answering your own unanswerable questions with a conviction that sounds like you're convinced of their absolute truth. I mean, you were really insisting that God Hand were the guardians of the God Hand a few hours ago. I'm not trying to rub it in that you were wrong, but a little less ASSUREDNESS in the future would smooth things over, I think.

And as CnC and others have said, speculations on speculations don't qualify for GOOD discussion; it's just talking in circles.
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: 1000 year incarnation ritual
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2006, 02:24:30 PM »
so then, we can assume that the wiseman was brought to the Guardian Angels of Desire, then something happened (basically a sacrifice) and then the Angels appeared in the physical world and destroyed Gaiseric's capital in one night.

But when a normal sacrifice occurs, the God Hand are unable to appear in the real world. That's why an incarnation is such a big deal. What happened with the Beherit-Apostle is that he made his sacrifice, and nothing happened besides his own transformation. Then, later on, the incarnation ceremony occurred in the place he had sacrificed which is also where he was all that time. We can assume a lot of things, but in this case they're not supported by what's in the manga (assuming things are supposed to follow the same pattern). Basically the problem is the vagueness of the legend and the contradictions that exist with Mozgus' tale. There are a lot of possible solutions to this problem, notably that part of what we've been told could simply be wrong or inaccurate.

Conrad and Ubik who no longer have a humanoid appearance but look more like "creatures" with a humanoid face.

Same for Void. Except his face is far more messed up than theirs. Ubik's hands are more normal than his in fact. And Femto only looks "normal" if you see him in the dark from a mile away. He has a humanoid form with 2 legs and 2 arms but he's still pretty much a monster. He's not made of flesh, and have you seen his feet? Not to mention the double-face thing isn't so charming either (since the "helmet" is part of him now, it's alive and all). In the end I don't think this means much to be honest, especially if we just go by personal bias and opinions. None of them is really "normal."

i think i would. the helmet is a dead give away. the wings are your basic demon design (which should therefor be ignored) but suggests a "winged" creature like a Hawk none the less. he is the dark Hawk.

Well that's an easy thing to say now. Why's the helmet a dead give-away? It doesn't actually look like the head of a Hawk, it's just vaguely and grotesquely birdish as far as helmets go. It doesn't point to a specific bird more than to another either. And he's not "the Dark Hawk," if you refer to the prophecy he's called the Hawk of Darkness. The difference matters.

the rest is irrelevant. that's why it's mostly covered by his cloak and the fact that there may not be anything more under it, apart from arms. the collar is designed like a plate to display his enormous brain: his most prominent feature.

So you're discarding features as irrelevant based on pretty much nothing. Basically it's irrelevant because you think it is. And so, from the features you've arbitrarily chosen to consider important over those you've discarded as irrelevant, you'll define what the past life of that mysterious character was? Seems an awfully unreliable process to me.

right now she does look like a succubus, but don't let that decieve you. [...] rather, she has goddess theme and the feathery wings that you see when she first appeared during the eclipse and her appearance during the heretics orgy suggests an Angel theme.

This is bullshit. I shouldn't let her real appearance deceive me and concentrate on illusionary ones instead? Where have you been, do you realize what character you're talking about? Her personality, all that? Anyway this theme thing isn't going anywhere, honestly I think you should just drop it. Things aren't nearly as simplistic as you make them to be.

right, but if i'm going to be more serious here, i'm thinking they are inspired by some japanese mythology theme.

Hahah, alright, and what theme would that be?

and, no... this doesn't help us figure out what the Godhand is, but it could give some interesting clues to their previous human nature. for example, Slan's flesh and human body is mostly intact... making me think her "fall" from an angel to demon was mostly psychological... while Void was heavily tortured as a wise man, and Conrad and Ubik's human nature could possibly be deciphered from japanese mythology (or even pop-culture) material.

I hope you know that what you're saying here isn't based on anything at all, and even beyond that, falls into the realm of the extremely obvious that's been discussed hundreds of times before. So Void's face is fucked up, he must have been tortured! Wow man, we sure needed to analyze his "brain theme" to find this out! While we're at it, big brain = smart, guy must be a genius with such a huge brain! And Slan's body is mostly intact! Let's not take into account the fact that her current body is what she wanted it to be and that she could have decided to heal any kind of gross injury for all we know! And by the way, same goes for Void and the rest of them. Femto's a good example here. Does he look like he was tortured? Nope, even his face was perfectly restored. But he actually was. Honestly we're kind of getting off-topic here, and I don't think we're learning anything new. This is really just the same old stuff man, and while I've replied in detail there was no real need for it. We don't need to find themes or to analyze anything to guess simple things from apparent character traits, and we can't move beyond superficial observations without more tangible elements. These are questions we'll have to wait to know more to be able to answer.