Author Topic: Dark Horse Releases  (Read 335106 times)

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Offline cuthulu

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #525 on: November 01, 2006, 03:23:51 PM »
I wouldn't mind the SFX Boxes as long as they are kept in the gutters of the page. If you are going to make a compromise like that fine, but there is no need to actually cover up the art work.

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #526 on: November 03, 2006, 09:13:45 AM »
In the case of Berserk, there are often no gutters on a given page.  Pretty hard to cram SFX translations into blank white space that doesn't exist.

Offline Kagami

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #527 on: November 15, 2006, 11:07:57 PM »
Wow, it's a shame that this discussion has suddenly died after Chris stopped posting.

See what sfx has done?

On another note, I miss having the releases so much that I am seriously tempted to bite the bullet and just deal with the silly SFX boxes. Anyone else shamefully about to succumb like me?
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Offline Walter

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #528 on: November 15, 2006, 11:09:13 PM »
My interest in the localization personally died after this fiasco. I won't buy another DH volume until something is changed in the way they handle SFX.

Offline C

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #529 on: November 16, 2006, 12:38:52 AM »
I guess I am one of the few that like them. Oh well.   :puck:

Offline Funkmasta Zeph

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #530 on: November 16, 2006, 01:29:35 AM »
In the case of Berserk, there are often no gutters on a given page.  Pretty hard to cram SFX translations into blank white space that doesn't exist.

Its called a glossary. Common tactic used by other companies.

Offline Seņor Caudillo

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #531 on: November 22, 2006, 01:46:51 AM »
Its called a glossary. Common tactic used by other companies.

I recently checked out the new manga released by Dark Horse titled "Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service", and there was one there. So I dunno......




Anyways, Dark Horse has recently put up a sneak-preview for the upcoming volume 14. You can check it out here: http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=13-516

Also, notice something interesting about this particular one here. For the first time ever in 3 years, we've been spared those godawful "manga mosh-pits". Instead, in its place we have a nice little paragraph dedicated to Miura's "Berserk: The Prototype".

And take a look at the page 4 (panel 1) of the volume 14 preview
http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=13-516&p=4

Notice something strange? Yes, if you've been reading Berserk for quite some time now, you can see it too. As you know, whenever there's a male character appearing in Berserk manga (whether it's an adult man, a male apostle, or a little boy) without his shirt on, Kentarou Miura never draws in nipples on them. While all female characters have nipples in Berserk, males never do. Well, on this preview page however, you can clearly see some kinda dot drawn by a pencil on Guts' chest that clearly resembles a nipple. Moreover, when I compared that panel image to the one in the original Japanese tankoban that I own, I didn't see even a slight sign of Guts' "nipple" there whatsoever.

This is just friggin' confusing now. Is it just me, or did someone in Dark Horse thought that guys having no nipples is evil, and so they decided to add one in? ::)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 01:52:20 AM by BayJumper »

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #532 on: November 22, 2006, 01:53:01 AM »
Quote from: Funkmasta Zeph
Its called a glossary. Common tactic used by other companies.

Quote from: BayJumper
I recently checked out the new manga released by Dark Horse titled "Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service", and there was one there. So I dunno......

Oh, BayJumper, how I hate you.

Quote from: BayJumper
For the first time ever in 3 years, we've been spared those godawful "manga mosh-pits". Instead, in its place we have a nice little paragraph dedicated to Miura's "Berserk: The Prototype".

Great!

Quote from: BayJumper
This is just friggin' confusing now. Is it just me, or did someone in Dark Horse thought that guys having no nipples is evil, and so they decided to add one in? ::)

Bay, you goof, that's clearly a print error - a bit of crap on the art.  Hooray Dark Horse quality control.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #533 on: November 22, 2006, 02:34:35 AM »
I like where this thread is going!  :troll:
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Offline CnC

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #534 on: November 22, 2006, 11:05:43 AM »
Also, notice something interesting about this particular one here. For the first time ever in 3 years, we've been spared those godawful "manga mosh-pits". Instead, in its place we have a nice little paragraph dedicated to Miura's "Berserk: The Prototype".

Quote from: Volume 14 Summary
The once unbeatable Band of the Hawk is smashed ...
And his discovery of a gigantic, dragon-slaying sword might be just the ticket to deal out some king-sized payback!

Yea.  The level of writing has vastly improved  :schierke:

edit by Walter: added another shitty line to the DH summary
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Offline Funkmasta Zeph

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #535 on: November 23, 2006, 02:49:23 PM »
Eh, I got 13, and I'll be honest it didn't bother me that much.

Course, as usual it failed to deliver any kind of SFX affect, but I wasn't all that distracted.

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #536 on: November 24, 2006, 01:58:00 AM »
Man, people get bent out of shape so easily.   Just for the sake of presenting a variety of opinions, I thought I'd share mine (which I'm sure are in the minority)--

I thought the SFX were a bit over the top, but I prefer to know what the sounds are, to having no boxes at all.  I definitely would never look them up in an index, which is what I found so absurd about the newer release of, say, Nausicaa by Viz.  To me, I guess I'd prefer to see all the sounds re-drawn in English, if were feasible monetarily, as that provides (IMO) the nearest experience one can have to reading the original.

I didn't mind the first 11 volumes, but there were times I wish they had some sort of SFX.  And yet, there were times I wish there were fewer SFX in 13.  But I figure, I'm not editing these books, and I don't read Japanese-- I'm just happy they're being provided in English, and on a new bi-monthly schedule no less.

I mean, I think it's fine to complain, to email complaints and discuss the subject, but I'd never even considered for a moment that I would no longer buy any of the future volumes just because of the FX. 

But to each their own I suppose.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #537 on: November 24, 2006, 02:09:00 AM »
I thought the SFX were a bit over the top, but I prefer to know what the sounds are, to having no boxes at all.

Well, since you don't know what they are, guess you have no point here, right? Because "GPA", "BAZHM", "GACHING" or "HMMMM" aren't telling you anything more than the original Japanese kana do. In fact they're telling you less.

Offline QuestionMark

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #538 on: November 27, 2006, 02:24:51 PM »
Quote from: Aazealh
Well, since you don't know what they are, guess you have no point here, right? Because "GPA", "BAZHM", "GACHING" or "HMMMM" aren't telling you anything more than the original Japanese kana do. In fact they're telling you less.

I don't get your point here Aaz... How are you thinking the kana provides more info than a translation would?  An SFX box online provides a literal sound translation-- it doesn't have the graphic representation of the sound that he kana gets-- that's true-- but I don't see how they're telling you less.  Seemed to me that they're just telling you something different--or the same thing, but in a different way.  Or perhaps they're very badly translated sounds?  Is that your point?

Just looking for clarification, as your post seemed ambiguous.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #539 on: November 27, 2006, 04:10:45 PM »
It's simple, my point is that "ゴパ" in Japanese has a meaning, while "GPA" in English is utterly meaningless no matter how you look at it (and it's not really "translated" actually). In essence, whether one went through the trouble of learning Katakana for a week or not doesn't change that fact. Now, I'm confident you don't speak the mysterious gibberish tongue, right? Then that "GPA" is actually counter-productive, because at least without it you could always second-guess the meaning, but now you're just left to wonder what "GPA" could be the sound of. Good luck with that. In that regard it tells you less than nothing, because it induces you in error. That's what I meant, I can see how it confused you.

Offline CnC

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #540 on: November 27, 2006, 04:50:21 PM »
I challenge anyone to accurately describe the meaning of "GPA" without the context of the illustration to help.  Setting aside that the expressive illustration of the original kana almost completely negates the need for a literal translation, _actual_ meaning is better found outside the source material in an appendix.  If people HAVE to know what "GPA" is, a description of "The sound made when Guts slices through the head of a ghost" would be FAR more informative.

Damn am I sick of talking about it though.  The sheer amount of babbling in this thread about this subject is retarded, and evidence enough that something needs to be done to fix the problem.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 04:55:18 PM by CnC »
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Offline Funkmasta Zeph

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #541 on: November 27, 2006, 05:54:58 PM »
"GPA" Makes me think of the sound a person might make if they open thier mouthes dramatically.....
I'm sure thats not what it was though...

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #542 on: November 27, 2006, 06:29:15 PM »
"GPA" Makes me think of the sound a person might make if they open thier mouthes dramatically.....
I'm sure thats not what it was though...
I believe the word you're searching for is... "gape". Or perhaps, maybe even, "agape."
Now we need a pronunciation key for the gibberish.

And I believe you've just proven their point.

When I see "GPA" I generally think of my scores in school. But that's just me.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 06:35:10 PM by Slightly Green »
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Offline QuestionMark

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #543 on: November 28, 2006, 01:52:42 AM »
Well, yeah, if the sounds are mistranslated-- if the Japanese sound affect doesn't literally translate as the "GPA!" sound-- then that would be what I would call a mistake.  But, to me,if that's the sound in Japanese, then whether or not its a dumb sound, I'd like to know what it sounds like in English. Does it have meaning??  No, but the sounds are part of the reading experience.  I mean, there are all sorts of absurd sound effects in English language comics that have no real relationship to the actual action they are depicting-- "ker-pow", "smash", "blam", "swoosh".  What do any of these "mean"?  We know how to "read" them, but that's because of cultural history, not because the words are somehow directly related to a real-world equivalent of the moment they're depicting.  I guess my point is that if "GPA" or other sounds they're using are gibberish, that shouldn't matter-- unless they're not gibberish in Japanese-- which I can't tell from your example.  If they're mistranslating it-- then yes, you are completely correct.

As for "GPA" specifically-- if that happened to be the actual sound that was on the page, I'd prefer to have it translated (and to me, having it in an appendix absolutely breaks any flow in the reading experience enough to make it absurd-- don't even include an appendix at all, is my opinion).  And although I can infer from the graphics that this sound is a "powerful" noise, that one a soft one, this one perhaps the sound of the wind in trees, etc. etc.  I guess I'm the kind of person that prefers to know the sound the creator thought of, rather than inserting my own "interpretation" of the graphics in a language I don't know. 

Thank you, btw, Aaz for giving a more detailed reply.

It's cool that you all disagree-- I know I'm never going to convince you to agree with me.  I would love to know, though, what the Japanese sound really translates as-- is it a sound only?  Or does it have some "meaning" as you were suggesting?  If so, what's the meaning?  Are we talking about "Gush" or "Ka-ching" or something like that?  Just trying to wrap my brain around how they mistranslated the sound, as an example of some of your issues with the SFX in general.

Also, what about the "the sound of silence" SFX-- was it an actual "sound" in Japanese? Or literally "silence", written the way I'll sometimes see "blink, blink" as a FX?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #544 on: November 28, 2006, 09:51:51 AM »
Well, yeah, if the sounds are mistranslated-- if the Japanese sound affect doesn't literally translate as the "GPA!" sound-- then that would be what I would call a mistake.

A sound can't be translated. "Aaaa" is the same sound in every language. It's not even a matter of language, it's just a sound. We're talking about sound effects here. Onomatopoeia. Mimetic words that can represent anything from an actual sound, to an action, a situation or even an emotion (Japanese SFX are categorized, but I'm going to leave that aside for clarity's sake). That's a very important distinction, and it's both surprising and disappointing that you're not making it at this point in the thread since it was brought up in previous posts. A dog will bark the same way no matter what country he's in or what language his owners speak, but people have different sound effects for it in different languages. SFX aren't just sounds, especially in Asian languages. If you don't understand this then I don't think you should keep posting about it.

But, to me,if that's the sound in Japanese, then whether or not its a dumb sound, I'd like to know what it sounds like in English.

What do you think "Yami no Kemono" sounds like in English? It sounds like "Yami no Kemono." Is that sounding smart or dumb? I'm not sure how you tell. Now, what does it mean in English? That's a more interesting question, don't you think? What applies to real words also applies to SFX.

Does it have meaning??  No, but the sounds are part of the reading experience.  I mean, there are all sorts of absurd sound effects in English language comics that have no real relationship to the actual action they are depicting-- "ker-pow", "smash", "blam", "swoosh".  What do any of these "mean"?  We know how to "read" them, but that's because of cultural history, not because the words are somehow directly related to a real-world equivalent of the moment they're depicting.

You can't tell if it has meaning or not in your current situation. And once again, we're not talking about sounds here, but SFX. These aren't what you'd hear if what's in the manga happened in real life, and it's why I think this paragraph perfectly highlights your mistake. The sound effects you're describing aren't meaningless in English. You can tell what they mean, even if it's vague and not clearly defined. That's the nature of SFX, and the fact they're not particularly similar to the sound one action or another really makes in real life is totally irrelevant. Don't you understand? No word is directly related to what it depicts (well, save for ideograms I guess). The word "table" in itself doesn't evoke a table, you know what it means because you speak English. The same goes for SFX, both in English and in Japanese. "Gaching" doesn't evoke anything to you because you don't speak Japanese, but to a Japanese person it's "the sound of a hard surface hitting another hard surface" (usually metal). If you wanted to "translate" it in English, it could be something like "clank," "clunk," "clonk," "bonk," etc. Or in the case of apostles snapping their jaws shut while trying to eat Guts, maybe "clack" or something? That is an attempt at translating the SFX. Just writing "gaching" on the page isn't. Now in my mind there's no doubt that the easiest and clearest way to explain and detail stuff like this is through an appendix, as you can't just write whole sentences on the artwork for the sake of explicit SFX, but that's another discussion.

I guess my point is that if "GPA" or other sounds they're using are gibberish, that shouldn't matter-- unless they're not gibberish in Japanese-- which I can't tell from your example.

Well obviously they're not meaningless in Japanese. Obviously they're indicating something. Why include them otherwise? Just to take up space? Seriously, did you re-read that before posting, or even pay attention to what I said? And are you saying that it doesn't matter if the "English SFX" you like so much are complete gibberish and thus useless to you? Because that's not a very smart point.

(and to me, having it in an appendix absolutely breaks any flow in the reading experience enough to make it absurd-- don't even include an appendix at all, is my opinion).

I'm sorry but that's a pretty stupid opinion, I hope you realize that. It's not like an appendix would hinder your reading experience if you didn't want to use it. To include one or not wouldn't change anything in that case. It can only be beneficial no matter your stance on the subject. And the point wouldn't be to use it as you read, but after the reading, as an in-depth analysis kind of thing. Besides, if you made a minimal effort, it could even help you recognize and understand the original SFX all by yourself overtime. That's not really the question here though, don't think I'm trying to convince you.

I would love to know, though, what the Japanese sound really translates as-- is it a sound only?  Or does it have some "meaning" as you were suggesting?  If so, what's the meaning?  Are we talking about "Gush" or "Ka-ching" or something like that?  Just trying to wrap my brain around how they mistranslated the sound, as an example of some of your issues with the SFX in general.

Well, why do you think I suggested it in the first place? I think I've already explained enough about all this. It's not a question of mistranslation, it's about simply transcribing words instead of adapting them in English. Take "ドキドキ", I can tell you it's "Doki Doki," but that doesn't mean anything to you. I can also tell you it symbolizes a fast heartbeat, and then a scene of a guy seeing a girl he's got a crush on takes another dimension. There are hundreds, probably thousands of example like this, such as "gooooooo" representing a roaring fire or "go go go go go..." denoting a menacing atmosphere or a threatening situation. Talking about "ゴパ", it's actually a difficult one. Usually people use it when one makes a violent effort, which in this case would be Guts slashing at ghosts with SK's sword. In any case, it sure doesn't mean "GPA" in English, which doesn't mean anything at all.

Anyway, aside from that I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on the translator for problems like these. I said so before in this thread and I'll repeat it: translating SFX isn't an easy task. It's often hard to properly convey Japanese SFX in English, and sometimes impossible. Make that ten times harder when you also have to make it as short as possible so it doesn't completely cover the artwork (not mention it must feel "natural" to the reader too). Let's take the SFX of "dimming light" from volume 12. That's a clear explanation of what the SFX means, no problem here. Only it's practically a sentence instead of being a small word. Good thing there was a gutter they could use on that page. How about for "gaching" then? It's just the sound of "a hard surface hitting another hard surface," let's write that on the page along with 5 other SFX captions, it should only cover about a fifth of the picture! See the problem here? An appendix would make things so much easier in that regard.

Also, what about the "the sound of silence" SFX-- was it an actual "sound" in Japanese? Or literally "silence", written the way I'll sometimes see "blink, blink" as a FX?

It's a sound effect representing silence. It's not the word "silence" written there and it's not a sound you can hear, it's just a sound effect. Sound effects don't necessarily describe something audible, in spite of how paradoxal that may seem to you at first. You should have known all of this before posting... Anyway, if you're really interested by this stuff, I don't think SK.net is the best place to ask for more information to be honest. We're not SFX experts or anything like that. I recommend you to buy books on Japanese Onomatopoeia, I'm sure that'd answer any question you might have.

Offline CnC

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #545 on: November 28, 2006, 12:01:49 PM »
FX:  ZING!

Yeesh, when I asked people to find the meaning of "GPA", I should have included it was a trick question.  Perhaps it was too subtle.  :schierke:

Anyway, Aaz has reiterrated my earlier point (albeit no longer in a subtle way) that the SFX "translations" have no meaning.  They have no business covering the artwork.
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Offline Seņor Caudillo

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #546 on: December 07, 2006, 04:01:06 AM »
Well I'll be damned to hell. This is certainly not what I wanted to see when checking this out.

Looks like DH has already put up the profle for the upcoming release of of Berserk vol 17. But there's something that I was hoping that would be gone for good, has re-appeared. Yes, I'm taling about everyone's beloved blurbs that have appear on the back of the Dark Horse's edition of Berserk. Wanna know what kind of "manga mosh pit" that is in store for us (no pun intended) this time?

Here we go:

Quote from: Back of the upcoming Berserk vol 17
Created by Kentarou Miura, Berserk is an out-of-control manga flashfire, a searing epic of blazing action, blasphemous horror, and black humor that has left scorched earth and toasted readers in its fiery wake. Burn, baby, burn!

"Burn, baby, burn!"?! What the is that supposed to mean?! Does this even has anything to do with Berserk?! And what about "toasted readers"?! It seems like Dark Horse is really out of control now. This is just  great. Last time, we were served up with "Speak, hands for me!" that was supposed to be a reference to a Shakespeare play. But now, we get a disco tune. This is really getting on my nerves now. Since vol 14 and 16 do not feature those "manga mosh pits", why does this has to return?  

« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 04:05:16 AM by BayJumper »

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #547 on: December 07, 2006, 05:40:33 AM »
"Burn, baby, burn!"?! What the fuck is that supposed to mean?! Does this garbage even has anything to do with Berserk?! And what about "toasted readers"?! My God, it seems like Dark Horse is really out of control now. This is just fucking great. Last time, we were served up with "Speak, hands for me!" bullshit that was supposed to be a reference to a Shakespeare play. But now, we get a disco tune. This is really getting on my nerves now. Since vol 14 and 16 do not feature those "manga mosh pits", why does this shit has to return? Now I'm thinking that DH has been intentionally putting this shit up just to piss us off.

Wow, they've really outdone themselves.  This is so ridiculous it doesn't even make me angry (although it should...).  Maybe this is the real reason behind the current Berserk hiatus.  That whole statement about putting more detail into the coming episodes was all a ruse, when in reality Miura got a peak at this little summary and hasn't recovered yet. :SK:

Offline Lithrael

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Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #548 on: December 07, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »
Now I'm thinking that DH has been intentionally putting this shit up just to piss us off. 

Now why would they do something like that?  You know they love the fans so much, they'll put fan-pleasing FX boxes all over the art when a humble reader such as yourself sends them some letters.

You just need to write them some more letters telling them how to fix the book, Bay.  Then all will be well.

Offline kuroikagesoku

Re: Dark Horse Releases
« Reply #549 on: December 08, 2006, 12:32:10 AM »
Now I know im sort of new to this thread, and ive read pretty much all of the whole FX fiasco and up from there. My question would be "IF" we somehow managed to get them to remove FX boxes from the art in say vol 18 or somthing.( I know this is hoping for a bit too much) would they go back and take them out of the previous volumes that had them and republish a bunch
(not as many but enough) so that previous readers that kicked the DH version to the curb would buy that? I mean it cant be that hard to do and that would get me to start buying them again. I dont know maybe I'm trying to hope for to much.... but in any case a "Collectors edition" or a non FX version would be a most exelent idea