Author Topic: Episode 199  (Read 22096 times)

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Offline angelene

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2002, 05:48:37 AM »
hello everybody.

I'm kinda new to this board (been lurking for a few days actually) and relatively new to berserk as well --  I know the storyline mainly from a friend, been watching some of the anime, read volumes 5 and 13 in full and catched from vols. 19 to 22 (well, part of it, anyway), currently trying to get a hold of the previous volumes as they're being re-issued in their translated format.

I've been peeping at posts regarding the young animal chapters because I'm damn curious for a start and it would take months to get them here anyway. I wonder, if I get all gawky and thrilled from simply reading summaries and translations, I cannot imagine how good the real thing'd be.

basically, my intention behind this post is to thank you for sharing all the informations/summaries/translations.

and um, just to keep a little bit more on-the-topic, I too cannot see what/why'd it be wrong with wizards and fire-breathing dragons assembled in berserk. I always thought berserk was a 'fantasy' product of sort for a start. I don't think the introduction of such 'more traditional magic elements' would do any wrong to the original, complex structure of the manga. beside, as it's been already mentioned, the 'new world' the 'new griffith' is carrying along does (is meant to) remarkably recall that of a fairytale -- the wicked, unabridged version, that is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2002, 10:08:02 AM »
The world of Berserk becoming more and more a "fantasy" world isn't exactly new, and was planned by Miura for a long time.
I mean, just read the first pages of the Millennium Falcon part. "The children were the first to grow aware of it". I guess some guys on this board were the last ones. ^^;
Anyway, Miura knows what he's doing, and he's _obviously_ on track. He's the author, remember?
I guess you main concern is that "fantasy is for sissies"... -__-;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline BOB

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;DRe: Episode 199
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2002, 10:15:33 AM »
welcome to the board you've always dreamt of  ;D


(Don't mind all the neurotics around here you'll get used to it)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline crazyCelt

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2002, 02:43:39 PM »
Quote
Guts isn’t involved in the last few chapters?

I didn't say or imply that. Guts' not being involved is part of the reason why these chapters are strange. If Griffith is indeed indirectly responsible for all this, fine. He not only has the power to evade several arrows but he can also summon the stereotypes of every fantasy story.  :-X

Quote
What/Why?!

I said why in the same sentence.

Quote
I guess you main concern is that "fantasy is for sissies"... -__-;

No, not even close. Miura is suppose to be creative isn't he? Apostles and God Hand members aren't without their influences (i.e. Cenobites) but I find them to have the originality of Miura. On the other hand, Schierke looks like one out of every twenty trick-or-treaters.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline testaccount

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2002, 04:38:24 PM »
Quote
The world of Berserk becoming more and more a "fantasy" world isn't exactly new, and was planned by Miura for a long time.


Apostles, God Hand, and fairies were well-established in the world of Berserk since the beginning.  Trolls, witches, and so forth have not.  So there does seem to be a problem with consistency.  When I first saw the witch I thought she looked ridiculous; she looks like she jumped out of one of those "magical girl" anime.  But like I mentioned before, I haven't seen anything past vol 22.  So who knows; I might change my mind once I read them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline DFInc

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2002, 06:48:38 PM »
    Actually, the witches and trolls and such fits in rather well in my opinion.  First of all, unlike the real world, the Church in Berserk actually do have some basis for heretic/witch hunting, since supernatural creatures obviously exists.  Sure, they are mostly in hiding and such, so you wouldn't see them much.  Their existence and occaisional sightings would explain the church's activities despite the lack of specific doctrine/political motives(things that miura didn't mention) to prosecute women and non-believers.  Think about it, Inquisitions that we saw in BErserk only happens if:  1 there's a specific divine order for it; 2 There are political motives that the church wants to exploit; 3 these things actually exists.  All that witch burning Farnese did had to have some basis.

  Also, if faeries can hang out like Puck does, an actual troll is not out of place at all.  being established form the beginning or not, faeries and trolls together in one setting makes more sense than faeries only.  Most of the problems people have is that Schierke or whatever her name is looks and acts sorta magical girlish.  But you have to remember, the magical girl stereotypes were created with the question: 'how would a young girl with magic act?'.  Just because its a stereotype, doesn't mean that its not an unreasonable one....and if Miura just made a young witch, she'd act that way 9 out of 10 times.   :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2002, 11:53:24 PM »
IMO, Berserk has always been a "fantasy" story, just not a traditional one.

Apostles served well as goblins, dragons, and other more traditional fantasy monsters, despite bearing little resembalance to the kind you'd see in an Anne Rice novel, or in Lord of the Rings (cept for Zodd, and his Minotaur/Balrog-iness.)

Sorcery too, isn't exactly a new element (Beherit=socery, Void's casting of the brand = socery, and so on and so forth) they were just different types than the kind we're used to seeing.

I will admit though, that this was a big part of why I liked Berserk. With the inclusion of Schierke and these trolls and such, the Berserk world does seem a tad "dirtied". But regardless, Miura is the author here. He has a plan, and most likely will work out, in the end.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Mage

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2002, 12:25:06 AM »
Maybe this sort of material would better lend itself to an anime transition? (speculation/wishful thinking).  At the moment, I'm wondering how the beast will be portrayed again... (maybe with 3 heads?   ;) )
-

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2002, 02:56:51 AM »
Quote

No, not even close. Miura is suppose to be creative isn't he? Apostles and God Hand members aren't without their influences (i.e. Cenobites) but I find them to have the originality of Miura. On the other hand, Schierke looks like one out of every twenty trick-or-treaters.

And Puck looks like Tinkerbell. He even has "fairy powder"/"pixie dust".

Quote

Apostles, God Hand, and fairies were well-established in the world of Berserk since the beginning.  Trolls, witches, and so forth have not.

So Elves aren't a problem, but other fantasy elements are? We knew that there was more to "fairies" than Miura showed us. Puck isn't the only Elf on Earth, so if there are other Elves "somewhere else", there could be other fantasy creatures as well.
For example, the fairies/dwarves of Godot's cave.
And don't forget that fortune teller in volume 12. She wasn't exactly an Aostle, was she? ^^;

They were there, they just became more and more apparent (reappeared?) with Griffith's return. I mean... It's _said_ in the very first episode of the Millennium Falcon part! ^^;;

Offline BOB

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2002, 04:33:54 AM »
En plus with more of these fantasy characters on the good side the whole theme of the manga, struggling for independance and fight fate is somehow picked up again with a character like Schierke who, similar to guts is not just a helpless victim.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline testaccount

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2002, 06:02:25 AM »
Quote
They were there, they just became more and more apparent (reappeared?) with Griffith's return. I mean... It's _said_ in the very first episode of the Millennium Falcon part! ^^;;


People keep bringing this up and I don't see a point to it.  It's a not a very good justification.  Let's just say this wasn't Berserk, and was some other manga instead.  

For example:  The manga is a horror-themed and is about vampires.  After 13 years of being about vampires and other similar creatures, unicorns suddenly pop out.  To justify it, it says, "Unicorns have always existed.  It's just that they were shy and didn't want to show up (and not because I just suddenly thought of it to fill up more vols and delay the ending)."

Doesn't really work, does it?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Miura has his reasons, so I'll shut up about this now.  It's hard not to be skeptical though since long running manga such as Berserk usually have a drop in quality at some point, or the author might go on a completely different tangent.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2002, 06:29:21 AM »
Quote


People keep bringing this up and I don't see a point to it.  It's a not a very good justification.  


I think youre missing the point. The quote is significant because it confirms that Miura intends to change things. Its not a random element.

To add to this conversation, I despired Schierke when I first saw her, and I still do, HOWEVER Im not going to say that Miura is "off his track". Thats just plain absurd. The man knows what hes doing. We just dont yet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Negative_Earth

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2002, 11:36:58 AM »
Well, considering there's a large portion of posters here that havn't read the english translations (or even the manga) for this chapter, i think it best to reserve judgement.

It's not like the idea of a witch is too farfetched.  after all, it's got two elves (which aren't supposed to be around), plenty of strange apostle/god hand goons.  And besides, all we know about the trolls is that they're big, hairy, and called trolls.  Miura will address them, somehow.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Namirrha

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2002, 12:21:11 PM »
Hi,

As as been mentioned previously, Berserk has always been a fantasy.  The issue, if there is one, seems to be over just what sort of fantasy Berserk is.  

On my own web-site, I describe Berserk as a 'dark' fantasy, which is probably as good as description as any; though I doubt whether it is necessary or desirable to sub-classify the fantastic.  Anyway, despite the perceived changes, I can't see that I would now go back and change that description.  Elves, trolls, dragons etc are not necessarily bright, fluffy or lame.  In fact, the first two mentioned feature prominantly in Poul Anderson's classic THE BROKEN SWORD, and there's not too many darker tales than that.  Besides it's not as though this is the first change that Berserk has went through - the Black Swordsman/Retribution tales (very much Sword and Sorcery) are of a significantly different tone than those set around Guts's time with the Hawks.

Just as a matter of curiosity, to what extent is 'Witchy-Poo' responsible for this perceived undesirable change in tone!?  Personally, I don't know what to make of her.  But, I'm certainly more than happy to sit back and see just how Miura develops her.  Beyond that, I'm also interested to see just what her magic involves.  From what Olivier has already pointed out, it looks as though Miura might have been doing a bit of research on The Golden Dawn.

Anyway, I doubt that I've added anything of any significance to the conversation, so...

Namirrha    

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline roberto999

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2002, 02:19:00 PM »
Quote
Quick sum-up...



They rescue an old man called Morgan.
Morgan explains that even if there were a lot of legends in this region, nobody believed them... until Trolls attacked the village a while ago (probably when Griffith reappeared?). In order to fight the Trolls, they decided to rely on another legend, and to ask for "the witch"'s help (Schierke, of course).



What this really means? That Schierke and the trolls didn't exist before and they suddenly appeared out of the blue because some legends mentioned them ? Weird!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2002, 03:21:16 PM »
Quote


What this really means? That Schierke and the trolls didn't exist before and they suddenly appeared out of the blue because some legends mentioned them ? Weird!


*quick pop in* Now that's an intriguing thought...

What is reality really is being remade? What if what we are seing here is the last gathering of the supernatural?

Has Miura ever read Moorcock's VonBek novels?

Too many weird thoughts here, too few facts and too little time.

Love you guys. Will be back later.

And as always... Griffith, I agree with you completely  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Vampire_Hunter_Bob

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2002, 06:30:28 PM »
Quote


*quick pop in* Now that's an intriguing thought...

What is reality really is being remade? What if what we are seing here is the last gathering of the supernatural?


hmmm i have my little on idea, [prepairs for a Jacobs Ladder ripoff] well i think that Guts was killed after being hit by that arrow [when he was a kid] and up to this point everything was his imagination,  like in Jacobs ladder [at the end] every thing starts to change [and the demons appear more] so Trolls and Golems are just Guts inner demons [like paradise lost but not as evil].

Vampire Hunter Bob



Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2002, 06:34:27 PM »
Quote


hmmm i have my little on idea, [prepairs for a Jacobs Ladder ripoff] well i think that Guts was killed after being hit by that arrow [when he was a kid] and up to this point everything was his imagination,  like in Jacobs ladder [at the end] every thing starts to change [and the demons appear more] so Trolls and Golems are just Guts inner demons [like paradise lost but not as evil].

Vampire Hunter Bob



A cool idea. Its similar to something I was thinking when I first started watching the series. That scene preceding the wolves is very... surreal. Even now.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline MarkedSwordsman

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2002, 10:04:46 PM »
I'd never thought about Guts actually being dead...that's a really good theory.  But to me the entire situation of being shot in the arrow, waking up in the water, fighting the wolves, etc. was just another dire situation for Guts. I personally believe it all still has something to do with his birth, where he 'should have died' so to speak, and then he 'should have died' when he got shot by the arrow, then he 'should have died' when he fought Zodd, on and on.  Guts' power is immense, and as long as he keeps fighting I don't think he can die. We'll have to wait, but a lot more could be going with the series than we imagine.

Anyway, I never thought about him dying from the arrow and the fall, but when I watch that part again, and look at in the manga, it certainly is very odd.  That "feel" has not been in the manga since.  Great theory.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2002, 11:31:46 PM »
I’ve always thought it would be cool to see Guts get “killed”, only to drag himself back up from the ground, surprised himself that he still lives…though, I’d only really dig it if it was a revelation made at the 11th hour.

Cool shit Bob

-Griffith

P.S. Hey Fish, don’t be a stranger, we can always use more people that agree with me around here. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Frogacuda

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2002, 12:11:18 AM »
Quote

Yeah you know, cuz Zodd, the God Hand, Puck, fairy powder, the Skull Knight. I miss all that. I want all those non-fantasy elements back.


It's not that it's fantasy, it's that it's traditional fantasy. I HATE Schierke and these golems and crap. One of the things I always loved about Berserk is that it did something in the medieval fantasy genre that was wholly seperate from the JRRR Tolkein and Dungeons and Dragons steryotypes I hate so much. It was still fantasy, but it had its own world, it's own mythology and its own monsters and they were unlike anything else. Miura seems to be throwing this ideal out the window here, and I'm really bothered by it. Maybe it was his intention all along, but I, for one, feel let down. Berserk has been many things but I never saw it as derivitive. Now it's pushing it.

If Miura puts a Dragon in Berserk I'm gonna kill someone.

Offline Ahmed

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2002, 01:04:09 AM »
"If Miura puts a Dragon in Berserk I'm gonna kill someone."

do u remember the time when godo was telling the story of making the dragon slayer? he sayed that some how a dragon was killed by a the dragon slayer so,  there was already dragons in the Berserk world (Based on the transilations I read of  volume 14)
Soon the one who we waited for him so long will come

Offline *Gyom*

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2002, 01:17:01 AM »
Quote

On my own web-site, I describe Berserk as a 'dark' fantasy, which is probably as good as description as any; though I doubt whether it is necessary or desirable to sub-classify the fantastic.


it's not by mean, but i would like to precise that fantasy and fantastic are not the same : fantastic is about strange events in a normal world, with fantasy the décor is modeled too.
thats all :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline testaccount

Re: Episode 199
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2002, 02:23:21 AM »
Quote
he sayed that some how a dragon was killed by a the dragon slayer so,  there was already dragons in the Berserk world (Based on the transilations I read of  volume 14


It was probably a crappy translation.  The whole reason y the Dragon Slayer was gathering dust till Guts picked it up was cuz there were no dragons in the Berserk world.

I can't remember the exact words, but someone asks Godo, "Can this really kill a dragon?"  

Godo replies, "Probably, if dragons actually exited.  But of course they don't."

So far, there hasn't been anything in Berserk that implies the existence of dragons.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline *Gyom*

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Re: Episode 199
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2002, 02:34:15 AM »
Indeed, Godo never believed in dragons and of course all of the monsters that guts is killin till he met one of 'em.
he said something about that...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »