Just how big is the Dragonslayer?

Have we ever been told the dimensions? I once tried to puzzle out how much it would weigh with some rough guesses at measurements, but I'm interested if there are any specifics that I've magically forgotten.

It's been discussed several times in the past, more recently here:

http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=6201.msg117617#msg117617

There aren't any concrete measurements though.

PS: Please try to keep threads in their correct sections. The DS isn't a character

Sorry, I just stuck it there because it bore relevance to Guts - I was intending to attempt to theorise the relative muscle density he must possess in order to weild it properly.
That, and I didn't think to stick it in misc. My bad.

Ok, using those measurements as a guide, the Dragonslayer would weigh in at around 199.7 kilos. That's assuming it were made of solid Iron, as is stated a couple of times in the first book. For those who didn't know, the highest class in existence in competitive weightlifting is 105kg+... so basically, it's a physical impossibility. Someone of Guts physique couldn't even LIFT the sword, however dense their muscle tissue.

I don't know, this guy is able to lift three times his body weight



I'm just kidding, well not about this guy but about any human wielding the Dragon Slayer! It's fantasy, Guts does it because he can that's at least how I'd sum it up.
Also check out this thread
http://www.skullknight.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=4645.0
(especially Aazealh's reply roughly round the half of the first page )

bastard_swordsman said:

Sorry, I just stuck it there because it bore relevance to Guts - I was intending to attempt to theorise the relative muscle density he must possess in order to weild it properly.

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No offense, but unless you're a specialist in that field I don't think your calculations will be reliable enough to be pertinent. That kind of extrapolation requires more than Calculus 101, and there's no serious data on which to base oneself to calculate it anyway.

bastard_swordsman said:

Ok, using those measurements as a guide, the Dragonslayer would weigh in at around 199.7 kilos. That's assuming it were made of solid Iron, as is stated a couple of times in the first book.

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If you consider what the DS goes through in the manga it's a physical impossibility that it's made of pure iron, based on iron's properties. It's just not a good enough material and the sword would be beyond impractical, so we can already discard the whole thing. It has to be an alloy, but of course we don't know what kind. Have you taken the variations in size of the blade into account for your calculations (sharpened parts, etc)? And what about the middle part of the sword? It looks like a fuller in some shots. That should be considered.

bastard_swordsman said:

so basically, it's a physical impossibility. Someone of Guts physique couldn't even LIFT the sword, however dense their muscle tissue.

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Ahh, the many impossible things Guts does. You know, such calculations have already been done times and times again, and the conclusion that Guts does impossible things has been reached by many individuals for many years as well. In the end though, it's not really better than any other estimation, because it's not done rigorously.

I'm almost tempted to pick on the fact that you argue against half of my message with realism...

Aazealh said:

If you consider what the DS goes through in the manga it's a physical impossibility that it's made of pure iron, based on iron's properties. It's just not a good enough material and the sword would be beyond impractical, so we can already discard the whole thing. It has to be an alloy, but of course we don't know what kind. Have you taken the variations in size of the blade into account for your calculations (sharpened parts, etc)? And what about the middle part of the sword? It looks like a fuller in some shots. That should be considered.

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And then the other part with fiction...

Aazealh said:

Ahh, the many impossible things Guts does. You know, such calculations have already been done times and times again, and the conclusion that Guts does impossible things has been reached by many individuals for many years as well. In the end though, it's not really better than any other estimation, because it's not done rigorously.

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But that seems a tad childish to me. Anyway, I tried to bear in mind every dimension of the sword possible, including the weighted part at the base of the blade, and the pommel. If you just use the measurements linked above, the weight works out around 200kg. On a final note, I worked with the assumption of pure Iron because the weight of an alloy can vary wildly, whereas pure Iron has a fixed density. If we're trying to make it more realistic, it'd probably use Damascus steel, seeing as it's considerably lighter and stronger than most other kinds of Iron alloy.

bastard_swordsman said:

I'm almost tempted to pick on the fact that you argue against half of my message with realism...And then the other part with fiction...

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And what is there to pick on exactly? Your attempt is flawed both in its end and means, that's what I'm telling you. It's pointless whether you consider it in a realistic or fantastical way, and most of all it's redundant because of the dozen of others that undertook the same fanciful task before you. Do you realize this? Also, what's "fictional" about telling you there's no rigour in your working process because it's not based on any actual fact, nor following a strictly defined procedure? Or that other people preceded you and reached the same obvious conclusions before?

I mean, calculating Guts' muscle density? Am I supposed to take this seriously? What are your credentials? Are you an authoritative source on the subject? If so please say it, that would be interesting. You didn't even post the detail of your calculations, that limits the interest of the thread for others.

bastard_swordsman said:

If you just use the measurements linked above, the weight works out around 200kg.

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You mean those I gave Chiba after his initial estimation? I thought you had added more variables, like the pommel and all that? And what about the fuller, I'm curious at the difference it'd make, did you take it into account it?

bastard_swordsman said:

On a final note, I worked with the assumption of pure Iron because the weight of an alloy can vary wildly, whereas pure Iron has a fixed density.

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Wasn't that one of the points I made in my previous post? I think so. As well as the fact that if you wanted to be realistic about it, which seemed to be your intention, then it should be noted that the DS couldn't possibly be made of pure iron. Conclusion: no actual relevance or novelty arose from this thread.

bastard_swordsman said:

If we're trying to make it more realistic, it'd probably use Damascus steel, seeing as it's considerably lighter and stronger than most other kinds of Iron alloy.

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Blades made of Damascus steel have a patterned texture on their surface which the DS lacks. So I don't see the interest of doing that. How do you calculate the mass of damascus steel by the way? Nobody knows how to make it anymore, so if you have information I'm interested.

Why does the alloy have to have a real-world coorelation? It's already known that Godot's mine had an elven aura from centuries ago. I think that clearly that plays a role in the power of the sword, and offsets any attempt to rationally debate the feasibility of wielding it.

Personally I think that the DS isn't as heavy as everyone thinks.

Depends on if you mean the DS Lite or "Fatty."


Ahem, anyway. It looks like bastard_swordsman deleted his account for whatever reason. I kind of liked the guy - much better than the average new SKnet user. I guess he took our responses too harshly, but I personally had no problem with him at all.

Walter said:

Ahem, anyway. It looks like bastard_swordsman deleted his account for whatever reason. I kind of liked the guy - much better than the average new SKnet user. I guess he took our responses too harshly, but I personally had no problem with him at all.

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Yeah, seriously. People delete their account far too easily nowadays, it's regrettable. This is an Internet forum and members aren't supposed to always agree with each other, that shouldn't be enough of a reason to delete one's account.

Looks like I'm too late to this topic. Had I seen this earlier I could have drawn upon my vast years of experience and boldly stated, "Its a fictional story!" - and there would have been peace and prosperity throughout the land!

Alas, missed opportunities...

Walter said:

Why does the alloy have to have a real-world coorelation? It's already known that Godot's mine had an elven aura from centuries ago. I think that clearly that plays a role in the power of the sword, and offsets any attempt to rationally debate the feasibility of wielding it.

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Wow, I never considered the elven mine as a factor in the sword's power before. Nice observation, Walter! I apologize if you've stated this before in another thread and I totally missed it. It's a pretty cool detail.

But suffice it to say: Dragon Slayer= Big Ass Sword only Guts can wield.

Remember what Aaz taught us, every time you try to apply real world physics to fantasy, a cat girl dies!

Aazealh said:

Yeah, seriously. People delete their account far too easily nowadays, it's regrettable. This is an Internet forum and members aren't supposed to always agree with each other, that shouldn't be enough of a reason to delete one's account.

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It's worth mentioning that I lol'd when I saw your new Avatar in this thread Aazealh.

Rhombaad said:

Wow, I never considered the elven mine as a factor in the sword's power before. Nice observation, Walter! I apologize if you've stated this before in another thread and I totally missed it.

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The problem is that Godot forged the DS before he came to live near that mine.

Aazealh said:

The problem is that Godot forged the DS before he came to live near that mine.

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BLAST!!!

Aazealh said:

The problem is that Godot forged the DS before he came to live near that mine.

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That's not to say Godot's HAMMER may not have imbued the Dragon Slayer with some of the elven aura when he reforged it in vol 17

*appologies for my overreaction to the criticism of my posts, but I'm back now*
Just because Godo didn't own the mine at the time he forged the Dragonslayer doesn't mean he didn't have access to it - it could be the case that he acquired the mine because of it's prior use by him.
Also, I thought up another thing - it could be that the sword simply does weigh a few hundred kilos, but Guts is able to weild it because he is no longer in the plain old human world like we are. His sword before the Eclipse could at least be *lifted* by a human... Maybe the process of slipping into the border between realms is the factor that enables him to carry out such a superhuman feat?

bastard_swordsman said:

*appologies for my overreaction to the criticism of my posts, but I'm back now*

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Hey, welcome back.

That new avatar disturbs me.

bastard_swordsman said:

Just because Godo didn't own the mine at the time he forged the Dragonslayer doesn't mean he didn't have access to it - it could be the case that he acquired the mine because of it's prior use by him.

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Yeah, that's possible of course, but also a little unlikely IMO. I mean this mine is remote and he apparently lived in a relatively distant kingdom before that, it would seem a little useless/far-fetched to go out of his way to get ore from there when he had resources available where he previously lived. It'd cost much money, take a long time, and basically be a waste of energy. Not to mention that nothing indicates he knew of that place beforehand (and he didn't know about the elves, so why bother with that mine in particular?).

Furthermore, the DS never appeared to have any elfin aura to it. You'd think Puck would have commented on it had it been the case, like he did for SK. And none of Godot's other weapons were ever touted at having special characteristics aside from being masterfully forged. For example, nobody ever said the DS was light for a weapon of its size, and when Isidro attempted to stole it he was unable to lift it. 2 members of the HICKs were needed to carry it as well, and it took a lot of effort from Isidro and Magnifico to carry it inside the rowboat at the end of episode 278.

All of this tends to prove that the sword is considerably heavy, and that it's Guts who's incredibly strong (also backed up by other feats Guts has done so far). However, in the end, there's just no way to say for sure that a special alloy wasn't used, one who could be specific to the Berserk world and not have any equivalent in our own. It's just one of the things that can't be accurately specified nor ascertained, and isn't meant to be.

bastard_swordsman said:

Also, I thought up another thing - it could be that the sword simply does weigh a few hundred kilos, but Guts is able to weild it because he is no longer in the plain old human world like we are. His sword before the Eclipse could at least be *lifted* by a human... Maybe the process of slipping into the border between realms is the factor that enables him to carry out such a superhuman feat?

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That's not a bad point, and of course it's been brought up before, but there's a problem. From what we know about the effects of being in the Interstice (from Schierke), it would take a long time for the spiritual part of someone to start influencing the material one. It's something that could reasonably happen now (after years of living in the Interstice and fighting monsters), but not back in volume 14.

Although that might seem cheesy to some, I think the simplest explanation is that Guts' strength is superhuman. And really, when looking at what he was pulling off in volume 4, is there any doubt to be had? He was 15, his sword was already bigger than him, and he could wield it amazingly fast. Not only that, his strength was depicted as equal if not superior to that of full grown adults. I could take more examples, but basically at some point we have to accept that the character is meant to be beyond normal humans. The first man to wound Zodd that badly in 300 hundred years. If you look at things in that light, and consider the fact he's been shown using oversized swords ever since he could walk, his wielding of the Dragon Slayer only comes off as the last stage of a natural evolution. And I believe that is what the author wanted to show in the long flashback that is the Golden Age arc.

No matter how he does weild it, logical or otherwise, between swinging that sword and firing that cannon... he's going to have terrible arthritis if he ever lives to grow old!

bastard_swordsman said:

No matter how he does weild it, logical or otherwise, between swinging that sword and firing that cannon... he's going to have terrible arthritis if he ever lives to grow old!

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If thats all he has to deal with when/if he gets old, I think he will be more then happy to accept it.

bastard_swordsman said:

No matter how he does weild it, logical or otherwise, between swinging that sword and firing that cannon... he's going to have terrible arthritis if he ever lives to grow old!

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We're talking about the man that caught a falling mast ON FIRE with his sword (while having his lung pierced). Seriously, I wouldn't want to see x-rays of his spine right now.

Oh dandy! he's back:

"IT's A WORK OF FICTION!"

...there. I feel somewhat more whole now.



....awesome avatar, btw