Author Topic: Episode 187  (Read 17672 times)

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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2001, 07:01:14 PM »
Quote

Technically Guts doesn't exist as far as God Hand is concerned (he's griffith's sacrfice)...


Well... Maybe, maybe not...
We've already seen that the Causality isn't an unfailing plan (the Count didn't sacrifice his daughter), so I'd think that the God Hands' masterplan keeps changing, according to the events. Slan even talks about "different destinies", so it looks like there isn't only _one_ path for the God Hands to achieve their goal.
Guts having survived may not have been planned (and we're not even 100% sure about that), but I'd think the God Hands took that into account and slightly changed their plans...

Griffith was reborn through Casca's child... was she really supposed to survive in the first place?
Griffith's incarnation happened because Guts and Casca, two sacrificed humans, were in Albion at the same time: that's how all those specters appeared. Even the Egg-Apostle said that Luca taking care of Casca and taking her to Albion wasn't a coincidence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2001, 07:03:42 PM »
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course, he could never join god hand. his beherit is only green, right?


There won't be another Occultation until 214 years from now, so I _really_ don't think Guts could become a God Hand anyway. ^_^;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Churn

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2001, 07:46:50 PM »
Well i don't think Guts would become an apostle i mean thats what he is fighting against. Isnt it his dream to kill them all i mean he has shown he has some very stron will power i dont think he will just give in and become one of the "bad guys" and if he did what would happen to the story, of course thats unless he somehow changes into something like the Skullknight although we dont really know what he is...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2001, 09:29:50 PM »
The Beast in this issue:

I don’t think his size or appearance has anything to do with a loss in power.  The Gambino thing sounds really good, but only because so many parallels already exist between the two, I don’t think Gambino’s dog was the key to…well, anything, except that Gambino cared for it much more than Guts.  I think the beast was a dog primarily because at that moment he wasn’t trying to look very powerful or threatening, quite the contrary.  The beast was trying to persuade Guts, so he took the form of something innocent and harmless, even friendly; a little yappy dog, talking in Guts ear like a devil on his shoulder, but as if he’s only looking out for his “master’s” best interests.  Only when the beast attacks Casca does it revert back to it’s true form, and keep in mind Guts did nothing to stop him.

Random crap about the Beast:

The beast has always appeared differently each time, first in a ‘physical’ form if you could call it that, then he appears more metaphorically when it’s shown surrounding Guts but it really isn’t there in the physical sense of the word, but he’s ALWAYS there. That was just me randomly babbling about the beast, because I think he’s cool.

The Beherit:

This has been on my mind for a long time.  I really want to see Guts activate his Beherit (not nessasarilly intentionally) and be put in Griffith’s position at the eclipse (relatively).  I want to see him tempted by God Hand directly (he’d resist in the end of course, unless Miura REALLY wanted to surprise us), plus, the beast would probably make a big appearance if this were to happen.

-Griffith

P.S. Like I’ve mentioned before, I really want to see Guts fight the beast of shadow, could potentially be the best fight in the series thus far.

*imagines the beast turning into many different monsters in a lengthy battle with Guts, then finally turning into Guts, remarking  that he is the most monstrous of them all*

Hell yeah, cheeserific fun! ;D

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2001, 01:28:12 AM »
Yeah, I don't think Guts will turn apostle either, but that don't mean he can't get tempted? The fact that both he and Casca is branded... well, since Griffith is back among the living, that sacrifice might have become null and void now? The Count couldn't sacrifice Guts because he didn't love and care about him, I'm not sure the brand neccesarily had anything to do with it...

Weird thought: What if the fact that Guts and Casca survived was the only thing that enabled Griffith to go back to 'human'. Since the sacrifice was not complete, then he was able to keep part of his humanity as the falcon of light, not to mention the fact that he twisted Casca's child to prepare for his return. Could there have been some sort of backup plan for Griffith, betting that at least Guts could survive anything the God Hand had to throw against him, thus enabling him to get reborn at some time since he had not lost his human soul fully? I know this is VERY speculative since Griffith most likely didn't have a clue what he was getting into, but it's nice to think that the master of sneaky plans might not have been completely without instincts regarding himself... Intentional or not.

I think the 'little' beast was there to show support for Guts, as had earlier been said. And I really DO think that it eventually will try to tempt him to become an apostle to overcome Griffith. To tell him that he needs the power if he ever shoudl have a hope of beating him. Temptation... wnad who was to say what Guts would do if he ever ended up in Griffith's situation? Maimed and hurt too badly for even him to continue? Memories of what Gambino turned into when he was maimed might drive him over the edge...

I am not thinking that this will happen, however I think that it will be a spectre that will haunt Guts in the future, quite possibly ending up in more understanding over what the hell Griffith went through.... And I think it's safe to say now that Guts has a LOT of complicated feelings for Griffith, not just simple hate. Perhaps the beast is right, that keeping Casca so close is a way for Guts to remind himself what atrocities Griffith has done to them... because I think that now that Griffith is back in the flesh he don't know what to do anymore. Safer to concentrate on Casca for now. Safer to fight for someone else than for himself.

Gah, I'm rambling  ;D But I really love this issue!!!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Anchella

Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2001, 03:26:46 AM »
Excellent chapter Walter, thanks a lot for scanning it. I'm gonna have to tell my friend in japan to go buy a copy of YA this month ^_^
I just love Guts and Casca stuff... Guts himself is so interesting to me and I've been wondering for a long time how long he can deal with Casca in this state without starting to crack... I have no doubt that he loves her but he's only human... I love the way the Beast always speaks out what seems to be the darkest thoughts in Guts' heart...
This chapter made me miss the old Casca VERY much, I dunno about you guys, but... I get all sniffly... poor Casca  :'( Here's hoping that the elves'll know of some way to bring her back or SOMEthing... I just want her back! I miss her...!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2001, 03:45:14 AM »

Quote
I just want her back! I miss her...!


You're not the only one... and since we are seeing more of how her current state affects Guts I think that she might actually get her mind back at the end of this (no doubt quite long) story arc. But not until the point of what she has become has been hammered into Guts enough... I mean, most of the time ebfore he was just away and didn't even see her, so this must be getting quite hard on him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Walter

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2001, 05:18:04 AM »
Food for thought: What if 'Elfhelm' no longer exists by the time Guts and Puck get there. Directly after the eclipse was the 'time of darkness' wasnt it?
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2001, 06:58:33 AM »
Quote

The Gambino thing sounds really good, but only because so many parallels already exist between the two, I don’t think Gambino’s dog was the key to…well, anything, except that Gambino cared for it much more than Guts.


I don't know, Gambino even called the dog "Sis"... Also, in Guts' nightmare, after his first defeat against Griffith, the dog had Sis' head...

Quote

well, since Griffith is back among the living, that sacrifice might have become null and void now?


Specters still attack them every night, so I'd say there isn't any change...
I think they're "doomed", actually. As long as the Idea of Evil and the God Hands exist...  :-/

Quote
The Count couldn't sacrifice Guts because he didn't love and care about him, I'm not sure the brand neccesarily had anything to do with it...


No, Conrad said that it's impossible because Guts has already been sacrificed.

Offline Fishbomb

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2001, 08:09:59 AM »

Quote

No, Conrad said that it's impossible because Guts has already been sacrificed.


Ah, there goes that theory out the window...  ;D

Not that it was really likely in the first place, just something that popped into my head...

Elfhelm destroyed? But time of darkness or no... wasn't places where the elves powers were strong protected against things like that?

Of course things might have changed a lot since Puck's perhaps not so truthful account of what went on...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline eintrigga

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2001, 08:16:25 AM »
regarding gambino's dog:
this condition is (i bet we all know) is a emotional displacement- like how gambino ignored guts and rest of his life (and everything important) by focusing on the dog, guts has done the same by giving into hatred and slaughterfest. therefore, the beast takes on the shape of a creature symbolic to guts' psyche. like father, like son they say.

coincidence? the beast bites Casca on the neck? same spot as where guts kills gambino?  let's not forget that guts also tried to strangle Casca when he had that flashback about gambino and donovan.

has the mandragora tree happen yet? it very well could have.
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2001, 08:21:22 AM »
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let's not forget that guts also tried to strangle Casca when he had that flashback about gambino and donovan.


And now, there's episode 188. ^^;

Quote
has the mandragora tree happen yet? it very well could have.


Hard to tell...
The season seems to be the same as when they left Godo's house... There was no snow in the Dreamcast game, I think?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2001, 09:32:54 AM »
there wasn't, although it was getting very close to winter, i think. i'm going to have to rewatch the final cinematic to be sure, but i'm pretty sure there's no snow. i'm leaning towards the idea that it's already happened, actually. unless miura wants to wait a REALLY long time before incorporating it into the plot. especially since there's a definate possibility that Casca's going to die soon...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2001, 09:52:16 AM »
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i'm leaning towards the idea that it's already happened, actually.


But how?
Winter -> not winter (fall? ^^; ) -> winter again? ^^;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2001, 09:53:49 AM »
could it have happened on the way to godo's mine? fall in the game--> winter in the last few issues
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline White Hawk

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2001, 10:04:28 AM »
I think the mandragora stuff will be left out...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2001, 10:06:26 AM »
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could it have happened on the way to godo's mine? fall in the game--> winter in the last few issues


No, I don't think so. Casca's outfit, Guts and Zoddo's conversation...

Besides, Miura said that Guts, Casca and Puck were heading towards Elfhelm back when the game was released, in an interview.
And a few episodes ago (when Griffith appeared in Shet), he also said something like "what will happen in a while is linked with the events of the Dreamcast game".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2001, 10:07:30 AM »
Quote

I think the mandragora stuff will be left out...


I doubt it will be made into manga, but it looks like Miura still consider it as a part of the story.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2001, 10:21:20 AM »
that's cool... i guess it also means that Casca will survive in the immediate future, so that's a plus.
also, i guess that means it could just be that the game takes place closer to a more temperate climate, like Elfhelm/elfhelm/elfville/micheal jackson's house (har har). it is supposed to be near the ocean, so that would make a bit of sense, what with water's high specific heat & all. then the game could take place after the current events, but before yet another year has passed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2001, 10:25:20 AM »
Dont forget what Guts asks Zodd about Griffith: "Trying to raise an army of monsters..?!" (is that even close Olivier?) Regardless of the accuracy of the translation, by the time of the game Guts has apparently already encountered Schierke, the witch girl. How else could Guts have known about Griffiths current activities?

Makes sense to me...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2001, 10:39:11 AM »
Quote

Dont forget what Guts asks Zodd about Griffith: "Trying to raise an army of monsters..?!" (is that even close Olivier?)


That's correct. ^^

Quote
Regardless of the accuracy of the translation, by the time of the game Guts has apparently already encountered Schierke, the witch girl.


Maybe, I don't know...

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How else could Guts have known about Griffiths current activities?


He could have guessed? After all, Griffith did say that he was going to conquer his own country, he had an armor (with the Hawk Soldiers emblem on it), Zoddo was serving him...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2001, 10:45:24 AM »
I personally dont think thats plausible...First of all, Guts isnt really the brightest star this side of the boat if you know what I mean... Making such an assumption would be blatant bullshit. It makes more sense if Schierke would talk to him about this, since she 'spied' on the whole event, and I think it can be safely assumed that she will be on Guts side on all of this..

However, there is no proof of EITHER explanation...We will have to wait for a while to realize when the game takes place. I personally however, am voting for much later. Directly before Elfhelm in my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2001, 11:01:28 AM »
Quote

It makes more sense if Schierke would talk to him about this, since she 'spied' on the whole event, and I think it can be safely assumed that she will be on Guts side on all of this..


But that would mean that Schierke pulled a Skull Knight?
"Hello, I'm a witch, I have to tell you some important things about the plot... [...] OK, bye now."
Those mysterious characters are _so_ busy.  ;D

Besides, Zoddo said that he came to see if Niko was worthy of serving Griffith... I think Guts guessed because of that, myself...

Quote
We will have to wait for a while to realize when the game takes place. I personally however, am voting for much later. Directly before Elfhelm in my opinion.


I wouldn't say "directly"... Elfhelm is an island, it seems, and I don't think Guts was on that island in the game...
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Offline Ger24

Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2001, 11:17:41 AM »

Quote



Besides, Zoddo said that he came to see if Niko was worthy of serving Griffith... I think Guts guessed because of that, myself...





Whoa! Zoddo said that in the game!! The U.S. translation was way off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Chapter 187 mk. III
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2001, 11:24:27 AM »
Quote

The U.S. translation was way off.


What was it, in the US version?
What did Zoddo say, just before Guts talked about an "army of monsters"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »