Author Topic: Episode 186  (Read 28328 times)

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Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2001, 08:12:46 AM »
Quote

Well... wasn't the Bakiraka sent to kill Griffith from the beginning? By the king of Midland?


5 Bakiraka were, but that's just a part of the whole clan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2001, 11:14:12 AM »
Hmmmm, I’m starting to wonder if Griffith would even want someone as “weak” as Silat in his army? It looks like you need supernatural powers to get in.

About Silat, I find the fact that he STILL tried to seize Griffith after seeing what happened with the arrows very strange.  I suppose Silat can’t get past the fact that this guy he was supposed to kill/capture for years continues to elude and humiliate him.  What a proud, stubborn, hateful bastard; I like him more than ever, now!!

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2001, 11:47:05 AM »
Quote
I suppose Silat can’t get past the fact that this guy he was supposed to kill/capture for years continues to elude and humiliate him.


Like I said, I don't think Sirat was ever supposed to kill Griffith...
I think he needs Griffith for the sake of his clan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2001, 12:16:58 PM »
Quote

Like I said, I don't think Sirat was ever supposed to kill Griffith...
I think he needs Griffith for the sake of his clan.

I mentioned the killing because originally the Bakiraka were sent to assassinate Griffith (without Silat, yes, but it was the clan he leads). Anyway, why would Silat still need Griffith for his clan?  If Silat’s problem is the Kushan then he and Griffith share a common enemy.  Silat just watched Griffith and his men take out a legion of Kushan troops like it was nothing, he’s being quite foolish in not offering to join him.  He may not be able to see past Griffith as simply his target, I think it’s a matter of pride to him now. Otherwise, shouldn’t he have joined Griffith?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2001, 01:29:37 PM »
Quote

I mentioned the killing because originally the Bakiraka were sent to assassinate Griffith (without Silat, yes, but it was the clan he leads).


Bakiraka have been used by _many_ kingdoms. The 5 Bakiraka who tried to kill Griffith were already in Midland, it seems, so they probably were "the Bakiraka of Midland", nothing more. I guess they were the King's "slaves", in a way...
Does Sirat even know what happened on that night? And if he does, why would he want revenge? They got killed "in duty"...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2001, 01:53:05 PM »
still, griffith's question is valid... why wouldn't silat? join griffith? it makes no sense, really.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2001, 02:18:30 PM »
so, um, i may have missed something here but, why didnt Griffith kill Silat? is he going to use him in some "political" way?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Ger24

Re: Episode 186
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2001, 07:15:26 PM »
Maybe Griffith wants to use the Bakiraka as his army because the soldiers that are just joining won't be enough he will need a larger army.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Wereallmad

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2001, 09:12:55 PM »
Silat wasn't supposed to kill Griffith, though he was supposed to wipe out the Taka no dan. I don't recall if the king of midland wanted it that way, or if he was just involved in some random mercinary raid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Cronus

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2001, 09:48:17 PM »
Griffith has no reason to really want to kill Silatt...what has he done to Griffith?  Not much...Silatt just wants/wanted to capture Griffith to aid his clansmen...this was in I think 174...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
All is within the flow of causality.

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2001, 12:52:47 AM »
Fletch, thank you.  Everyone else, you either have A.D.D. or you hate me with a passion (probably the latter).  Or you have both, so most of the time you can’t focus on hating me with a passion and I assume everything’s okay.

This thread aggravates me to no end!  Why are we arguing semantics and other garbage from my post that are irrelevant to the point of my query!??

Example:

Me: :) “Hey guys, do you think Casca slipped on that banana peel by accident?  Or was she subconsciously yearning to get her mind back and she thought a blow to the head would do it?” (That’s on par with my usual nonsense)

Someone who isn’t me: ::) “You used incorrect grammar in your post, rather than ‘by accident’ it should have been ‘on accident’.  Griffith, you are such a weenie!”

Me: :-/ “Uhhh…thank you?”

Now, while I may be a weenie I hope I made a point.  And for you wisenheimers out there, my point isn’t that I’m a weenie!

Okay, so answer me this!

WHY THE FUCK DOES SILAT NEED TO CAPTURE GRIFFITH FOR THE KUSHAN’S TO HELP HIS CLAN WHEN HE COULD JUST JOIN GRIFFITH (WHO SHOULDN’T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST HIM SINCE IT’S BEEN MADE SO PAINFULLY FUCKING CLEAR THAT SILAT NEVER EVER TRIED TO OFF GRIFFITH HIMSELF) AND HELP DESTROY THE KUSHANS, ESPECIALLY SINCE ALL SIGNS SHOULD INDICATE TO SILAT THAT GRIFFITH WILL BE RULING THE WORLD SOON ANYWAY AND THAT REMAINING ON THE SIDE OF THE KUSHANS IS SUICIDE, THEREFORE, VERY VERY FUCKIN’ BAD FOR HIS CLAN!!! SO, I JUST WANT SOME IDEAS FROM EVERYONE AS TO WHY!!??

I think it could be a matter of pride for him.  That’s all I’ve wanted to say.

Good day,

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline The Perineum Falcon

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2001, 01:17:59 AM »
im sorry, you lost me with the first part of your post...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
We often went to the cinema, the screen would light up and we would tremble, but also, increasingly often, Madeleine and I were disappointed. The images had dated, they jittered, and Marilyn Monroe had gotten terribly old. We were sad, this wasn't the film we had dreamed of, this wasn't the total film that we all carried around inside us, this film that we would have wanted to make, or, more secretly, no doubt, that we would have wanted to live.

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2001, 01:48:20 AM »
Quote

WHY THE FUCK DOES SILAT NEED TO CAPTURE GRIFFITH FOR THE KUSHAN’S TO HELP HIS CLAN


"For the Kushan"?
Sirat _doesn't want_ to capture Griffith for the Kushan, in my humble opinion...

The Kushan general made it clear that even if they succeded in their mission, that wouldn't change anything about them being slaves. It also looks like the Bakiraka lost their lands and their freedom _to the Kushan_, centuries ago.

But remember what he said to his men at the end of volume 21...
He told them that the Bakiraka may regain their lost glory by capturing Griffith.
He told them to remember about their history of grief, and how they were deprived of their lands.
He told them that it was a "golden opportunity" to seize Griffith, _before the main Kushan army comes_.

So, why did he say all that? Maybe he just wanted to galvanize them... But would Sirat _lie_ to his men?
And how was that a "golden opportunity" to capture Griffith? What about Zoddo?? Would Sirat be _that_ scared by the humiliation of not having seized Griffith yet in front of his masters? Knowing that he would remain a slave even if he did well?

I think that he just didn't want Griffith to fall in the Kushan's hands.

Anyway, I think that Sirat needs Griffith, and surrendering during the battle (because they're Kushan, as far as Griffith and his "Falcon Soldiers" are concerned) wouldn't really help the Bakiraka... Even if Griffith let them live...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2001, 01:53:00 AM »
That's the stuff I want to hear!!! ;D  So, what do you think Silat needs Griffith for?

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2001, 02:11:02 AM »
Actually, I wonder what Sirat and the Kushan knew about the "Falcon of Light"...
According to the Kushan general, the Kushan wanted to _capture_ Griffith as well, not to kill him (we knew that Sirat wanted to seize him, but that didn't necessarily mean that it was his orders).
Why?
Power, I guess? And lands, in Sirat's case?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2001, 02:22:58 AM »
Quote

Power, I guess? And lands, in Sirat's case?

How will Silat get the power to get his lands back by capturing Griffith?  Wouldn’t Silat have a better chance by trying to join Griffith, getting their lands in return for the Bakiraka’s service?  The idea of capturing Griffith seems pretty futile.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2001, 02:25:24 AM »
I'd like to add that there could be another interpretation for the Kushan general's words...

The Kushan general said that even if the Bakiraka were allowed to return in Kushan territories, there will be nothing for them, there. At first, I thought that "to return to the country" (literally) simply meant "to return (once your duty is over)".

But that may mean that the Bakiraka _always_ were slaves, but were actually _bannished_ from Kushan territories after that succession war, centuries ago. And if they do well this time, they will be allowed to return... but remain slaves anyway.

In that was the case (and it's totally possible, actually?), I guess that would explain Sirat's words at the end of volume 21...

So, you may be right about Sirat, actually, Griffith.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2001, 02:35:27 AM »
Yeah, that's probably what happened. I guess I was mistaken about the Bakiraka's status.  :-[

But I don't know, I can't really picture them as being mere slaves _even before_ these succession wars, centuries ago...
They look like proud warriors, Sirat seems to be their leader, there's some kind of "tradition" in their clan... Oh, well?  :-/

Quote

The idea of capturing Griffith seems pretty futile.


But the Kushan also wanted to capture him... Why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2001, 03:10:42 AM »
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They look like proud warriors, Sirat seems to be their leader, there's some kind of "tradition" in their clan... Oh, well?  :-/

That was my thinking when I said Silat might be too proud to join Griffith.  He’d be joining someone he intended to capture, a target of the Bakiraka, I think he might view that as a kind admission of total weakness. Even slaves can be very proud people.
Quote

But the Kushan also wanted to capture him... Why?

I think they  wanted to get him because they thought something similar to the events of 184, 185 and 186 would happen if they didn’t.  

-Griffith

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2001, 03:32:16 AM »
Quote

I think they  wanted to get him because they thought something exactly similar to the events 184, 185 and 186 would happen if they didn’t.


"Exactly similar"?  :-/
Griffith attacked the Kushan because they invaded Midland.
And the Kushan invaded Midland because of that oracle about the "Falcon of Light".

Maybe "Griffith, King of Midland" would have attacked the Kushan eventually, of course, but...  :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2001, 03:43:15 AM »
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[...] I guess that would explain Sirat's words at the end of volume 21...


I just remembered something and I looked in the Visal & Story File at the "Bakiraka" entry... It does say that even if they're part of the invading Kushan army, it also looks like they have their own schedule...
Maybe they're just talking about their mission to find the Falcon of Light, but...
Well, I don't know what to think anymore.  :P

(but I'm glad to see that I had some reasons to think that Sirat wanted te betray the Kushan, at least!  ;D )

Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2001, 04:10:25 AM »
Quote

"Exactly similar"?  :-/

Funny, that’s almost EXACTLY SIMILAR to my example of silly grammar arguments earlier in this thread!! I haven’t slept in about 36 hours and I’m a bit punchy, I was either trying to say “…exactly like the events of…” or “…similar to the events of…” but I combined them instead. Anyhoo, it’s fixed now so let’s move on.

I’m standing by my theory that Silat didn’t join Griffith as a matter of Bakiraka pride.  Mostly because I’m too tired to think of anything better based on the new (and much appreciated by the way) information you just brought to light.

I’m getting some sleep now.

-Griffith
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Olivier Hague

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2001, 04:20:12 AM »
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Funny, that’s almost EXACTLY SIMILAR to my example of silly grammar arguments earlier in this thread!!


I wasn't making fun about your choice fo words, you know?  ::)
It's just that had the Kushan not invaded Midland, who knows if they would have been attacked by Griffith any time soon?

Quote

I’m standing by my theory that Silat didn’t join Griffith as a matter of Bakiraka pride.


But as far as we know, he never had to kill him, and we don't know for how long he's been looking for him... I'd say "maybe months", not "years"...

Quote
Mostly because I’m too tired to think of anything better based on the new (and much appreciated by the way) information you just brought to light.


Appreciated? Well, thank you, but I still don't know what to think about all that, myself...  :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Fletch

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2001, 01:45:11 PM »
you know, i always just assumed that if, going from the original theory of the bakiraka having become slaves after having had lands of their own, those lands still existed, & the kushan now ruled them, that those lands would still be peopled. the bakiraka can't be a clan of mercenaries alone. surely there are women & children & farmers & the like on the lands somewhere. clans are family units, not like guilds who would recruit from the strong warriors of the lands. you're born into them, thus there must be families of bakiraka somewhere. thus, the kushan are probably using those lands, & the people inhabiting them, as hostages, thus the "nothing for them to return to" bit. as for capturing griffith, maybe they want to force griffith to help them regain their lands? or maybe they think an exchange will get them freedom? i dunno, seems plausible anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 186
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2001, 10:08:06 PM »
Chapter 186 = tomorrow night

P.S.: Hopefully....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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