Traditional and non-traditional mythology

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
I recently started reading a number of books on Viking era mythology. In my quest to search for better descriptions of the creatures, artifacts, and places surrounding these myths, I ended up learning about the origins of some of these myths, and learning that there really is no end to it all.

For instance, In a book by Thomas Keightley (The world Guide to Gnomes, fairies, Elves, and Other Little People), I learned that fairies and elves date back not to Scandinavia or even Europe as I had always thought, but pre-historic Mesopotamia, and creatures in whom the author feels the word "fairy" is rooted from can be found in both Zoroastrianism and Vedic religions.

I was hoping that some people here had books they could recommend on mythology, general or specific, especially those that attempt to reveal the origins of not only words associated with ancient myths, but concepts surrounding them (for instance, when did the idea of pointed ears get attributed to elves?). It doesn't have to be limited to conventional mythology, Indo-Persian, East Asian, African, they are all welcome.

I figure this would be a pretty good thread to discuss Miura's interpretation of mythological concepts as well. So far we've had dozens of discussions of mythology scattered throughout other threads, but if people feel, they could treat this thread as a place to centralize said discussions. I only ask that people cite sources, especially literary ones.
 

Aazealh

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I'm sorry, the only books I know that I could recommend you are in French. It's an interesting topic though, I'm glad some people are reading up on it. I always found that Miura's interpretation of these old concepts was exceptional, but unfortunately not many people can even understand that.
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
Aazealh said:
I'm sorry, the only books I know that I could recommend you are in French. It's an interesting topic though, I'm glad some people are reading up on it. I always found that Miura's interpretation of these old concepts was exceptional, but unfortunately not many people can even understand that.

I'd be happy to check them out anyway. If I know the titles and/or authors I might be able to find English translations of some.
 

Walter

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I'm getting ahead of myself, but could we as a group compile a kind of creature/bestiary with the llikely cultural origins of creatures that have appeared in Berserk? That'd be pretty fucking awesome. Furthermore, a breakdown of the different races of fairies that appear in Berserk and their "real-world" counterparts would be interesting as well (Piskies, "dwarves" etc)

I guess what I'm saying is, could we start with, say... Miura's representation of the Kelpie? Based on some of the designs I've seen via the internet, the creature seems to have European, specifically Scottish, origins. Though, that's only the name's origin. Miura's use of it seems quite different.

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/scots_folk/kelpie.html

Forgive my lame source, I'm heading to the state library tomorrow to see if I can come up with something more reliable and indepth.
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
There isn't much that I know about the Kelpie, aside from the it being a spirit that each lake apparently has, similar to a water Nymph. Also similar is that it can change its shape at will. Though unlike the Nymph, it seems distinctly malevolent.

In terms of Dwarves, I know in Norse mythology they seem to correspond to the same sort of creatures as in Tolkien's myths, save for the fact that they are not described as particularly stout. In some descriptions the term Dwarf or Troll or even Dark elf are used interchangeably, but the author of the book I mentioned earlier suggests this to be a translation error, and feels that there is indeed a distinction.

In regards to Miura's usage of the word "elf", or "elven", it seems that this author would use the word "Fey" (though romanized differently) creatures, or "Fairie" much the same way. Perhaps "fairfolk" might also be accurate. In terms of the origin of the word, there is a lengthy introduction at the beginning which discusses maybe 10 or more different theories on that very subject, but the one which he seems to put stock in is that the word dates back to the indo-persian word "Peri". The creatures described in the short tale are not dissimilar to that of Arabian Jinn or Greek Nymphs, or Tolkien's elves in some respects, but there isn't enough info to get a real description of what they were like.

The word itself "Elf" is thought to originate from the Norse word "Alfar", but I know very little about the Norse Elves aside from them being divided into light and dark kinds.
 

sarahofborg

goodbye assholes
Actually this reminds me of the time I was wondering about the demon that led the pagan cult, the one with the goat head and legs but a human torso. I noticed that the demon was not an original creation of Miura's but is actually a common symbol I've seen on many things dealing with magic (wicca), including Tarot Cards.
Heh, one day I was actually wandering around Salem, MA which is nearly where I live, and I saw the exact same demon on a t-shirt in a shop that sold unusual things. Salem is known for being like a Wiccan mecca. I saw the shirt and thought "what the hell? A Berserk t-shirt here?" Although that was just my first impression :D Later I figured out it's actually this guy, who sometimes symbolizes fertility, but is also best known for being accused of being a satanic symbol. Seems he's been used in a lot of things to represent different ideas. Sorry I just have a wiki article but if you follow it's sources you'll probably find something.

Baphomet
 

Femto the Raven

The location of agony? The human soul.
http://www.fairiesworld.com/myths-mythology/folklore-names.shtml

This is a fairly extensive reference site for faireies, including but not limited to Trolls, Trows, Elves, and Rakshas, but I wish it where more detailed. Just something to get started.

A Berserk Mytholgocial reference guide would be awesome Walter! I hope it comes through.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Tolkien-Bestiary-David-Day/dp/0517120771

Not really the 'definitive' (i hope i spelt that right) resource but worth a look if your into mythical creatures.

As for an encyclopedia of beserk monsters and their origins go for it :) would be good to see all of the comparisons between tolkein/warhammer/beserk/mythology/fairy tale/various other writers.
 

Wereallmad

I love YaBB 1 Gold!
zooty said:
http://www.amazon.com/Tolkien-Bestiary-David-Day/dp/0517120771

Not really the 'definitive' (i hope i spelt that right) resource but worth a look if your into mythical creatures.

As for an encyclopedia of beserk monsters and their origins go for it :) would be good to see all of the comparisons between tolkein/warhammer/beserk/mythology/fairy tale/various other writers.

Personally, I don't know that I would consider Tolkien's work 'mythology'. Certainly it's probably fairly influential to Berserk, and draws on many other sources of classical mythology, but I classify it as popular fiction of the fantasy genre. Certainly many myths began as such in their own day, but I don't think many people would call Anne Rice's novels 'vampire mythology' for instance.

Maybe this thread should be expanded beyond mere mythology to general Berserk influences, but I feel that would make things too disorganized.
 

sarahofborg

goodbye assholes
I think it might have been intended to be about the origins of the myths that Berserk seems to be influenced by, not just any other series using them.
*clicks link* but I admit that's some gorgeous art there, and some one has spent a serious part of their entire lives making up fictional histories for creatures some one else imagined. Wow.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
I really have no time to reply to this thread in the depth I'd like to, but I want to say this:

Wereallmad said:
Personally, I don't know that I would consider Tolkien's work 'mythology'. Certainly it's probably fairly influential to Berserk, and draws on many other sources of classical mythology, but I classify it as popular fiction of the fantasy genre.

I agree that Tolkien's work is definitely not mythology, it's just modern fiction. Tolkien was himself inspired by mythology (among other things) just like Miura is, and I don't feel Tolkien's work has any more legitimacy than Berserk does in that regard. I also don't think, and don't see how, Tolkien's work is supposed to have had any particular influence on Berserk at all. Both works are just fantasy with roots in classic legends, folklore and mythology. And I personally find Miura's reference to classic mythology at the same time as faithful and more unique than what Tolkien did.

Which brings me to the fact that I don't think a Tolkien bestiary would be such a good resource in the present case, because it's very specific. It'd only indirectly be interesting/useful.
 
Aazealh said:
I really have no time to reply to this thread in the depth I'd like to, but I want to say this:

And I personally find Miura's reference to classic mythology at the same time as faithful and more unique than what Tolkien did.

I agree with you on both accounts. Though I think it is hard to judge the uniqueness of Tolkien's stories, when a large amount of modern fantasy (by no means all, nor am I specifying a majority) has been derived in whole or in part from his works. So Tolkien's work may have been quite unique for it's time but does not look very unique under in a retroactive sense.
 

Aazealh

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jepn30 said:
So Tolkien's work may have been quite unique for it's time but does not look very unique under in a retroactive sense.

Well it was one of the first modern high fantasy novels, and it can't be denied that his works strongly influenced western fantasy culture, especially RPGs. I was talking more in terms of his relation to classic mythology and folklore, from which Tolkien admittedly heavily drew. Miura puts a certain Berserk spin to all of what he includes in his series, which makes them integral and natural parts of the Berserk universe; in fact practically original creatures, but while still being references to old tales. Think about it, if trolls, ogres, kelpies, etc. were named differently in Berserk, how many people would link them to their mythological counterparts? The link would be pretty vague.
 

sarahofborg

goodbye assholes
Does anyone know why he calls them elves and not fairies? Can anyone explain this to me? I always thought elves were just little people with pointed ears, and never had wings because that's what a fairy has. I thought for a while maybe the male ones are elves but that clearly wasn't the case with misty valley.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
sarahofborg said:
Does anyone know why he calls them elves and not fairies? Can anyone explain this to me? I always thought elves were just little people with pointed ears, and never had wings because that's what a fairy has.

The term's meaning has had many variations over time but also depending on countries, too many to list here I'm afraid. "Elf" and "fairy" used to be synonyms in English (along with other words like "sprite"), and in fact are still defined as such by some dictionaries. In Berserk the word "elf" refers to various creatures and isn't limited to the likes of Puck (i.e. it's a relatively generic term). Dwarves are also a race of elves. As for Puck, to be exact he's a pisky (alternate spelling of "pixie" originating from Cornwall). It might also be useful to note for those that don't know it that "elf" is only used as furigana for the Japanese word "妖精" which is itself relatively generic too.

We'll probably learn more about elves in Berserk once Guts and his friends get to Elfhelm. In any case, keep in mind that these references are just that, and don't have (nor are meant) to be strictly identical to their mythological counterparts.

sarahofborg said:
I thought for a while maybe the male ones are elves but that clearly wasn't the case with misty valley.

The creatures of Misty Valley weren't really elves, they were quasi-apostles. Anyway, Ivalera is an elf too, it's got nothing to do with gender.

PS: There's a full lunar eclipse going on over here right now, mischief is in the air!! :puck:
 
Sorry to be bringing up old threads but its title seemed appropriate. Im taking Latin American Art History Class and while studying came across an article on the Fifth World Myth. I know Wikipedia isnt that reliable but I think that what it says may have some similarities on how Femto's Incarnation* played out, could Miura have been influenced by this meso-american myth?

The coming Fifth World (where our present World is presented as the Fourth) is said to arrive following a cycle in nature affecting our entire Solar System, where our Earth births an egg (Mystery Egg, Hidden Egg) and then moves "up" within our system to reach its crowning place. All of the Earth's life is then said to be "raised" to its perfected-eternal form. Some tribes refer to this period of change as "Purification Time." During this period of purification, time is said to change where we must choose between the natural Time we have now upon our Earth (meant for us) and an unnatural time structure which removes us from nature and our opportunity to reach the Fifth World. It is told that everyone will have to choose between the two time frames—one leading to the Fifth World with our Earth, and the other (which will be very alluring, deceiving many) which will remove us from our Earth, taking us to oblivion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_World_%28Native_American_mythology%29

*thnx Aaz
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I see some similarities, but not in a similar context to Berserk.

Basically in this, the earth produces an egg that somehow (it's pretty vague in Wiki, but we're talking about ancient myths here, so...) transmutes life to a perfected form. The time/choice stuff at the end doesn't really apply to Berserk, at least not yet. Unless you consider Griffith an analog to the unnatural time structure.

If you look strictly at the key elements: egg, perfect world, deceptive alluring negative force, you could maybe say it has Berserk parallels, or just be a coincidence. All we really have to go on is what Miura has said about his influences, and meso-American myths aren't among them.
 
yeah i guess what i was trying to say was that it has parallels

i was also thinking about the parallel between 5th world and the fifth member of the godhand (though the other four weren't reborn..) and that the natural time and the unnatural time could be the earthly realm and the astral realm
though thats really stretching it..

mann and here i was excited that Miura might have taken interest in what my heritage had to offer, heh heh

thanks for the reply
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
mega_devastation said:
Griffith's Rebirth

You mean Femto's incarnation.

Walter said:
If you look strictly at the key elements: egg, perfect world, deceptive alluring negative force, you could maybe say it has Berserk parallels, or just be a coincidence. All we really have to go on is what Miura has said about his influences, and meso-American myths aren't among them.

It's just like for the Gani-tree. Those concepts can be found in a lot of myths all over the world. I don't believe there is any specific connexion.
 
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