Author Topic: Guts' Goal / Motivations  (Read 7943 times)

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Offline the_golden_gunman

Guts' Goal / Motivations
« on: March 12, 2007, 07:45:59 AM »
Hi, I've been lurking around these forums for a long time, but this is my first post.

I've read Berserk twice now from start to it's current episode, and I have a few questions regarding Guts' overal goal in the series. If anyone could point me to relevant episodes in the manga to answer my questions, that would be great.

Essentially my broad question is this: What is Guts' goal in Berserk? He hates Griffith, and wants him dead. But is revenge his ultimate goal, or does he also want to destroy the Godhand too? I ask because I can't think of a specific episode where Guts actually signals his intentions to destroy the Godhand. I assume that it is Skull Knight's ambition to destroy the God Hand, but I cannot make the same assumption for Guts.

Further to this, does his ambition lie strictly with death and destruction, or does Guts want something more. In "Sparks" Guts talks about how he feels at home on the battlefield, and that swinging his sword makes him feel at ease. However, he is presently on his quest to try to cure Casca, he has effectively created his own Band of Followers and is clearly a good leader. I can't help but speculate that in time Guts' ambition will change to wanting something more than cutting a swathe of destruction on the battlefield. Is there anything in the manga to support this theory, or is it just pure speculation?

Finally, somewhat off topic, but at the same time, somewhat relevant. I have an issue with Guts' role in Causality. Causality is a major them in Berserk, and it appears that Guts is following SK's role in Causality. SK we assume to be Gaeseric, an emperor of a mighty kingdom. However, if anything, one could argue that Griffith could also be fulfilling this role. He seems on his way to becoming King of Midland. I assume that Causality is not exact, IE, circumstances may change, but the idea of Causality in Berserk is the spiral effect of someone going against the wishes of the Godhand and surviving whilst being offered as a sacrifice / being branded. But at the same time, as far as I can remember this is not specified anywhere, hence my confusion to the exact nature of Causality. I have searched through the board and found some useful threads, but if someone could offer me an explanation, that would be great.

I am aware that most of the questions I have asked in this post do not as yet have answers, but if anyone knows of the top of the head areas in the manga that cover these issues in more detail, I would be very appreciative.

Offline Blues

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2007, 04:08:03 PM »
Hi, I've been lurking around these forums for a long time, but this is my first post.
Same deal with my lurking and joining recently, so welcome. Aazealh and Walter are much more knowledgeable than me, but I'll try to answer what I know myself.
Essentially my broad question is this: What is Guts' goal in Berserk? He hates Griffith, and wants him dead. But is revenge his ultimate goal, or does he also want to destroy the Godhand too?
Personally, I go with what Guts himself said, namely his chase of Femto/Griffith and God Hand being "aimless". If you notice in Volume 3, his first and only "target" (at least the only one he is ABLE to "attack" to no avail) is Femto. I do believe (bad memory) Femto taunts Guts and Guts was able to talk back/shout/yell and consider other situations other than gurgling "KILL FEMTO!!!!" non stop. Well, Guts wasn't in the best condition either, but again, -in my opinion-, he wasn't beyond talking, maybe he was just confirming for himself that Femto was still Griffith and thus assuring his ambition, or maybe he just wanted a "why" etc. In the (Re?)incarnation Ceremony, Guts attacks the forms of God Hand that appear.

After that in the Qliphoth (spelling) Slan shows an interest in Guts, yet Guts immediate action is to strike at her/attempt to kill, not reason with her or just find out where Femto/Griffith is. So I think Guts "instinct" is simply to kill, but at this moment (just my opinion) he's unsure of what it will really "solve" or how he will really go about it. In the last Episode he saw Griffith (or rather, notified of his arrival) his instinct was again his rage, but with Serpico's intervention, he conceded to it, leaving me to believe Guts is not -completely- void of reason, though I doubt this means he'll spare so much as at least become a little more "realistic" other than his previous aimless hunts (his vengeance also extended to apostles and still does to my knowledge).

I ask because I can't think of a specific episode where Guts actually signals his intentions to destroy the Godhand. I assume that it is Skull Knight's ambition to destroy the God Hand, but I cannot make the same assumption for Guts.
Imo, I think its a bigger assumption to say Skull Knight wants to "destroy" the God Hand with his..SWORD OF RESONANCE!!!! so much as seal them away. Guts imo is "blindly" following an unsure ambition, where as Skull Knight (again, to me) Seems to have made a clear resolution that's he's been following for quite some time.
I can't help but speculate that in time Guts' ambition will change to wanting something more than cutting a swathe of destruction on the battlefield. Is there anything in the manga to support this theory, or is it just pure speculation?
imo, a little bit of A and B. Guts is clearly a warrior, yet he's obviously gone out of his way to enjoy other aspects of life (Again, he's saved lives, he fell in love/made love to Casca, he's not just a one track mind...well...)In other words I think like you there are several aspects of Guts, not just a killing machine (HE'S JUST A LOVE MACHINE!)

As for Causality, obvious as you said a major theme in Berserk, but I doubt I could be of much help to you here. Again, even God Hand and Skull Knight note Guts being the fish swimming upstream but unable to change the flow of the river (check quotes for me). I don't think causality itself can change "Entirely", ...I wouldn't say its the same as "destiny" or "fate", causality is a system of cause and effects (dur moment), and I'm pretty sure it includes variables, but regardless it involves A(the cause) and B (the effect),  so in order for B to occur, A has to be there as well. There are probably countless other conditions and variables, But eh, you're better off asking another board member or looking up in dictionaries what Causality all implies, there are probably counter theories, but I don't know myself.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 04:21:09 PM by Manji »

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2007, 12:48:51 AM »
Welcome to the forums  :guts: We don't have a DIRECT answer to your main question because Guts' motivations havn't been addressed formally since volume 17. However, I can shed some light on scenes where they've been addressed since then, indirectly or briefly.

Anyway it's not like Miura's kept us in the dark on Guts' motivations - he makes logical decisions, and as readers, we know Guts so well it's not hard to cognitively understand his motivations.

I ask because I can't think of a specific episode where Guts actually signals his intentions to destroy the Godhand.
At the end of episode 203 he says that one day he will defeat them. Besides, I think him going into a crazy bloodlust everytime he sees a member, or even a shadow of a member, is evidence enough of his intentions.  :beast:

For further answers to your question, I think you should look carefully at volume 17, specifically when Guts is alone in Godot's cave and changes his direction - discovering he's been selfish for so many years.

Ever since that moment, his goals have been pretty pragmatic, without any overarching "dream." But after the final scene in episode 221: "Companions," I think it's safe to say his new friends have made their way into his heart and future. Especially since he clearly went out of his way to reclaim Serpico as part of the group in the two part "Duel."

I don't really care to speculate further than that, because whatever we say, it'll be crude in light of what ultimately happens. Clearly retribution will be had in some form, whether it be by the dull edge of the Dragon Slayer or the folly of Griffith's dream, who knows...

Quote
Causality is a major them in Berserk, and it appears that Guts is following SK's role in Causality. SK we assume to be Gaeseric, an emperor of a mighty kingdom. However, if anything, one could argue that Griffith could also be fulfilling this role. He seems on his way to becoming King of Midland. I assume that Causality is not exact, IE, circumstances may change,
Yeah, Flora's line about causality being a spiral, not a circle, implies events won't occur exactly like they have in the past, regardless of recurring or similar events.

As for Griffith/Guts/Gaiseric, there's no reason to assume the reflection of Gaiseric's past is mutually exclusive to one person. I'll be a little naughty and say, without any evidence of course, that Gaiseric's path had qualities that both Guts and Griffith inherited in a roundabout way. 


Quote
but the idea of Causality in Berserk is the spiral effect of someone going against the wishes of the Godhand and surviving whilst being offered as a sacrifice / being branded.
Huh? Causality is just the law of cause and effect, specifically in Berserk as the "force" and chain of events orchestrated by the Idea of Evil.

For more information on random tidbits like this, I suggest the Encyclopedia's glossary: http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/newgloss.php
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Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 04:06:53 AM »
After that in the Qliphoth (spelling) Slan shows an interest in Guts, yet Guts immediate action is to strike at her/attempt to kill, not reason with her or just find out where Femto/Griffith is. So I think Guts "instinct" is simply to kill, but at this moment (just my opinion) he's unsure of what it will really "solve" or how he will really go about it.
I just want to comment on this part but... I think anyone who knows who/what the God Hand are will be trying to kill them/escape if they were in the same situation. Guts knows that Slann isn't there to bake him a pretty cake so he needs to do the only thing he knows how which is to strike out at her. Also he knows that they can't be talked out of what they want to do. (well really doesn't know but come on you cant deny it!)
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Offline Blues

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2007, 11:58:13 PM »
I just want to comment on this part but... I think anyone who knows who/what the God Hand are will be trying to kill them/escape if they were in the same situation. Guts knows that Slann isn't there to bake him a pretty cake so he needs to do the only thing he knows how which is to strike out at her. Also he knows that they can't be talked out of what they want to do. (well really doesn't know but come on you cant deny it!)
I agree he would obviously want to defend himself, but his instinct to me seemed more "God Hand!? KILL" than "Oh shi-, I'm in for it!" Again, I think it was his carnal Berserk-revenge trigger going off versus a logical approach or a  fight or flight mechanism, he just wanted to kill some God Hand, just like he did at the tower when the forms of God Hand materialized. And I don't mean to imply he would have reasoned with them/her so much as just giving into that urge.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 01:49:56 AM »
I agree he would obviously want to defend himself, but his instinct to me seemed more "God Hand!? KILL" than "Oh shi-, I'm in for it!" Again, I think it was his carnal Berserk-revenge trigger going off versus a logical approach or a  fight or flight mechanism, he just wanted to kill some God Hand, just like he did at the tower when the forms of God Hand materialized. And I don't mean to imply he would have reasoned with them/her so much as just giving into that urge.
May I ask what logical approach would there be when confronted by a God Hand?
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Offline Blues

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 04:31:51 AM »
May I ask what logical approach would there be when confronted by a God Hand?
You're taking things out of context a bit much. Again, I don't see what you're arguing with me about. Guts attacks Slan out of his God Hand vengeance, if that includes self defense so be it but that's not the carnal reasoning at work, neither was it at the tower or when he attacks Femto during the episode with the Count. Its his revenge in motion, and there's a difference between acting on that and trying to find some other methods of dealing with them that aren't quite as brash or impulsive, see Skull Knight.

Offline the_golden_gunman

Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 07:17:29 AM »
Thank you very much for your replies. After reading the suggested areas of the manga again, you do indeed see Guts mention he intends to destroy the Godhand, so thank you Walter.

Are there any sticky threads in the forum that deal specifically with Causality? I have searched thriugh several threads and found some useful information, but is there a "Causality 101 - What you need to know" thread, or something akin to that?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 07:47:10 AM by the_golden_gunman »

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2007, 08:27:01 AM »
Are there any sticky threads in the forum that deal specifically with Causality? I have searched thriugh several threads and found some useful information, but is there a "Causality 101 - What you need to know" thread, or something akin to that?
http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/newgloss.php

Pull up the Causality entry, there are some additional entries it mentions that should help.
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Offline Kalie Ma

Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2007, 02:18:14 PM »
http://skullknight.net/encyclopedia/glossary/newgloss.php

Pull up the Causality entry, there are some additional entries it mentions that should help.
That Jumping Fish entry seems a little off to me. Slan doesn't say Skull Knight is "swimming" against Causality specifically.  She says "Even if a fish jumps
that cannot change the flow of the river..." "And that flow has begun. The Fifth Angel has been born, so... The Time of Darkness shall visit us."

I also think that entry is a little presumptuous to put in something called an Encyclopedia.

Offline Walter

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Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2007, 10:11:52 PM »
That Jumping Fish entry seems a little off to me. Slan doesn't say Skull Knight is "swimming" against Causality specifically.  She says "Even if a fish jumps
that cannot change the flow of the river..." "And that flow has begun. The Fifth Angel has been born, so... The Time of Darkness shall visit us."

I also think that entry is a little presumptuous to put in something called an Encyclopedia.
Yeah, it needed some correcting. Good call. But you have to understand I was trying to both explain the fact and a popular theory in the same entry. It's a difficult beam to balance.

Anyway, Aazealh was actually pestering me about that entry just the other day, asking me to change it. So, you were too late! :ganishka: I do appreciate the heads-up though. I'm always trying to perfect the Encyclopedia.

Due to my ignorance, he was able to put together a better entry. So thanks go to him for wording a more accurate entry. Check it out in the glossary.
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Offline Kalie Ma

Re: Guts' Goal / Motivations
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2007, 07:29:05 PM »
I didn't mean to sound mean. I just want to make the encyclopaedia perfect! The new addition is good.

Have you considered changing the name of it though? It's really more of a Berserk Guide. I like the approach the glossary takes by including everyone/thing into one giant list. That's more of an encyclopaedia.  The other sections like timeline are like addendums.