Author Topic: Guts opening up finally?  (Read 7634 times)

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Offline Kalie Ma

Guts opening up finally?
« on: March 17, 2007, 07:13:48 PM »
Since the eclipse Guts has closed his heart to almost everyone. He slowly began opening back up after his encounter in Godo's cave in volume 17. Over time, he's allowed others to share the burden of his journey and now he's gotten to the point of trust that he relies on them in combat. I think it's high time his "companions" are due an explanation of how Guts came to be in the position he's in now, who Griffith is to him, how Casca got this way, AND that he's carrying around a potentially catastrophic living creature: the Beherit!

Of course, the beherit activates itself, so it's not like Isidro will go pilfering through the bag one day looking for cheese and accidentally bleed on it  :isidro: (I actually thought that might happen, but a search proved me wrong. cool feature.) Still, it's a powerful object/creature that will surely play a huge role in the future. It would sure be awkward for it to activate itself before everyone knew what it was. (Guts: "OH yeah, that. Sorry guys this thing opens a gateway to the demon world in a time of someone's utmost desperation. Serpico, put it down. ok?").

I feel kind of redundant saying so, because others have said on the forum (mostly in recent episodes) that Guts could tell them about his past on their journey across the ocean. Still I don't think anyone's elaborated on why this has been irresponsible of Guts to not clue them in prior to now.

Offline relmneiko

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 07:45:11 PM »
I really doubt that Guts will say anything about his past unless circumstances force him to. He never seemed all that willing to tell members of Band of the Hawk about himself, and considering the level of crappiness that he experienced during the eclipse... he's going to keep his mouth shut, and understandably so.

He might drop some hints if pushed, but I think the other characters have too much respect for his privacy to needle him (except for perhaps Isidro... yeah, I could see Isidro pestering Guts to tell him about his past, and not really knowing what he's asking). :isidro:
"As my duty as an immortal, I've prepared a brand-new world view for mankind. When I temporarily linked with U-DO, I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools. But a nice guy would tell them the truth, would he not? 'Hello! You've got it all wrong!'"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 08:05:22 PM »
I feel kind of redundant saying so, because others have said on the forum

Yes, it's often been brought up. I'm not sure a dedicated thread was needed though.

Still I don't think anyone's elaborated on why this has been irresponsible of Guts to not clue them in prior to now.

Irresponsible? How so? Did Isidro tell the group about his past? Did Schierke? Did Serpico or Farnese? Did Puck, or even Ivalera? No. None of them revealed anything much. Guts' life story isn't simple, it's full of tragedy, and it's not until recently that the bonds between his group became really strong. Not too long ago Farnese was still thinking of leaving the group and Serpico of killing Guts himself. The time wasn't proper, and the situation didn't require that Guts tell them anything at all.

It should however become necessary to tell them in the future as their journey to Elfhelm is reaching its end, and that's probably what he'll do. The sea trip will provide a good opportunity, so we'll see what happens.

I really doubt that Guts will say anything about his past unless circumstances force him to. He never seemed all that willing to tell members of Band of the Hawk about himself, and considering the level of crappiness that he experienced during the eclipse... he's going to keep his mouth shut, and understandably so.

He wasn't as close to the Hawks as he is now with his companions though, and a lot of things happened since. I don't think you should be so categoric about it. I think he'll tell them eventually, of course not a detailed, day-by-day account of his life, but a good overview, including the Hawks and the Eclipse.

Offline Kalie Ma

Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 08:19:41 PM »
Irresponsible? How so? Did Isidro tell the group about his past? Did Schierke? Did Serpico or Farnese? Did Puck, or even Ivalera?
I only meant it's irresponsible to be carrying around something like the beherit without informing his friends about it and its potential. It's an object that could and very likely will affect the group in the future.

As for the others, in their own brief way they've informed us of their past when it was brought in front of everyone. See Schierke and her background with Flora, or Farnese and her background with her family. Guts however ignored the opportunity to explain anything about his tragedy to Schierke even after she became intimate with his "soul." The most he's said was that he fought in the 100-years war.

I do understand his reluctance to say he was part of the Hawks or even go out of his way to take credit for having played such a crucial role in the war. However, as the thread title goes, I think it's time he, as a friend, opened up.

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I think he'll tell them eventually, of course not a detailed, day-by-day account of his life, but a good overview, including the Hawks and the Eclipse.
Oh so do I. I'm not expecting a complete recounting. That'd be pretty cheesy for one. Also knowing the way Guts words things it'll probably all be within 2-3 speech bubbles  :serpico:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 08:24:25 PM »
I only meant it's irresponsible to be carrying around something like the beherit without informing his friends about it and its potential. It's an object that could and very likely will affect the group in the future.

Well it's not like any of them is going to use it. I don't see what's irresponsible about it at all to be honest. Even if one of them were to use it, it'd have been planned since before their birth anyway (or not, but you see my point). And since they've been fighting against apostles, familiars and even Ganishka's magic, the risk the beherit represents isn't all that much, really. I mean, they were in the Qliphoth when Slan appeared...

As for the others, in their own brief way they've informed us of their past when it was brought in front of everyone. See Schierke and her background with Flora, or Farnese and her background with her family. Guts however ignored the opportunity to explain anything about his tragedy to Schierke even after she became intimate with his "soul." The most he's said was that he fought in the 100-years war.

Because we know something doesn't mean the characters do. Again, they haven't revealed anything much about themselves, just vague things akin to Guts telling them he was once a mercenary. Of course he's been through bigger things, but that doesn't change the fact they haven't been very talkative about their past themselves.

Offline relmneiko

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2007, 05:28:18 AM »
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He wasn't as close to the Hawks as he is now with his companions though, and a lot of things happened since.

Exactly. If Guts was reluctant to talk about himself before, now that so much has happened to him and he has even more crap on his plate, it seems to me like he'd be even less willing to talk about his past.

I don't know about saying that he's closer to his current company than he was to the Hawks, though. Closer to them than he was to Pippin, Judeau, etc., but Griffith and Casca? That's more than a bit fuzzy. It's a different set of relationships, and aren't easily graded.

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I don't think you should be so categoric about it. I think he'll tell them eventually, of course not a detailed, day-by-day account of his life, but a good overview, including the Hawks and the Eclipse.

Eventually, definitely. But I don't think it's going to happen in the near future, as the OP suggested. My point is that he's not going to volunteer the information; circumstances would have to lead towards it.
"As my duty as an immortal, I've prepared a brand-new world view for mankind. When I temporarily linked with U-DO, I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools. But a nice guy would tell them the truth, would he not? 'Hello! You've got it all wrong!'"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2007, 10:21:20 AM »
Exactly. If Guts was reluctant to talk about himself before, now that so much has happened to him and he has even more crap on his plate, it seems to me like he'd be even less willing to talk about his past.

That's not what I meant. He's lived more things with these people and is closer to them. And he went through a lot of experiences that changed his views on life since he first met the Hawks. He's not just a mercenary not knowing what to do with his life anymore. He's relying on his companions and sticking up for them. He went out of his way for them, has saved them, been saved and cared for by them. It's not just fellow captains in an army, they're a small, tight-knit group. While in the Hawks, Guts felt he wasn't part of the group. That he was just warming himself by the fire of their dreams. It's not the case here.

Rather, all that he went through makes the burden of keeping his past secret heavier and as time goes by it'll become impossible.

Eventually, definitely. But I don't think it's going to happen in the near future, as the OP suggested. My point is that he's not going to volunteer the information; circumstances would have to lead towards it.

And aren't the circumstances leading toward it already? They've already got clues about his past life (Puck in particular knows practically everything about his adult life), and a lot of things must be intriguing to them and require an explanation. Furthermore, as I already said they're reaching the end of their journey. After that, if they're to remain with Guts they'll have to know about his past and his goals for the future. If they were to ask him right now I don't think he would refuse. And then there's always Casca. They're going to Elfhelm for her, and now that there's a tangible possibility that she'll be brought back to normal, it's hard to imagine that her own past and relationship with Guts will be kept secret as well.

It's just inevitable in the end, and I don't see it happening after Elfhelm. Even without Guts, all it would take for them to puzzle things together is to put their knowledge in common. Schierke knows about the Occultation and the God Hand, she's seen Griffith and knows what he is. Farnese, Serpico, Azan and Isidro were there when he was incarnated into a new body. Farnese, Serpico and Azan saw the red lake where the Occultation occurred, and they followed Guts' trail afterwards. They now know about apostles, they know Guts hates them, they know he and Casca are branded and what it entails. Serpico has a good knowledge of armies, Isidro knows about Guts' exploits as a mercenary. Etcetera. And that's not counting Puck.

Offline relmneiko

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 08:07:01 PM »
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It's not just fellow captains in an army, they're a small, tight-knit group. While in the Hawks, Guts felt he wasn't part of the group. That he was just warming himself by the fire of their dreams. It's not the case here.

...Okay, I think you're right there. I hate being convinced. ><

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Even without Guts, all it would take for them to puzzle things together is to put their knowledge in common.

...Which is what I think is going to happen, rather than Guts simply stating anything about himself. If anything, reaching Elfhelm and healing Casca will shed light on Guts' past, not Guts coming clean.

And of course, then there's the question of exactly how long it will take to reach Elfhelm, which I'm not going to try to guess.
"As my duty as an immortal, I've prepared a brand-new world view for mankind. When I temporarily linked with U-DO, I climbed the ladder of evolution, and saw the leaning tower of culture that humans have struggled to construct. It's not even a tower, really, it's a scaffold of rotting wood, built with meager knowledge and pitiful tools. But a nice guy would tell them the truth, would he not? 'Hello! You've got it all wrong!'"

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2007, 10:38:49 PM »
...Which is what I think is going to happen, rather than Guts simply stating anything about himself. If anything, reaching Elfhelm and healing Casca will shed light on Guts' past, not Guts coming clean.

Well it's not like he's going to start talking about it out of the blue, but I have a hard time imagining him refusing to talk if they asked him with a little insistence. The situation lends itself to it, and I think it'd be absurd for him to keep silent while they pieced it all together. He might be reluctant, but it's going to be necessary at some point and he probably knows it. I guess we'll see soon enough how it'll go anyway.

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2007, 10:48:33 PM »
I imagine when it happens it will happen in a similar fashion to when Guts told Rickert about the eclipse. I can't imagine it will make any significant change to the group or their intentions, so while it might be interesting to see their reactions I don't think its very significant.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2007, 10:59:49 PM »
I can't imagine it will make any significant change to the group or their intentions, so while it might be interesting to see their reactions I don't think its very significant.

I think by shedding light on Guts' history and personality it'll generate more empathy toward him from his companions. And I believe that might be important in the future if they are to stay together even after their journey to Elfhelm.

Offline Evarella

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2007, 02:00:53 AM »
I'm sure the situation will eventually call for his past to be revealed, but I believe it will have more to do with the group fitting the pieces together with what little hints Guts eventually will give in the future (most likely, in my opinion, during or right after Casca's 'healing'), rather than him all-out opening up to them and verbally spilling his soul out.

Though I do disagree on Guts being more close to this group than he was to the Hawks.  In a sense, I feel that was an unfair comparision.  However, Guts has grown.  His relationship(s) with the Hawks taught him many things, and he no longer is the man he once was.   He's not unrecognizable by any means, but he's had a gradual change in the way he deals with his trust issues.  When leaving the Hawks to find his own dream, he returns to them only to realize how he had taken them for granted, and it was with them that he truly felt he belonged.  He states and acknowledges that he only realizes what he's had right after he's lost it.  After the Black Swordsman Arc, and after the trauma of the Eclipse has settled in and subsided partially, Guts is able to revert back to a more matured form of himself, especially due to the influence of the new people in his life.  He's becoming a man from the boy he once was, and, in a sense, becoming more of a Father figure. 

While Griffith regressed after losing everything he had and had taken for granted (mostly Guts' and his love/friendship for him), blaming and loathing, Guts has turned it into a situation where he has a new set of companions and knows better this time around to not just wander when he needs to find himself.  Though, admittedly, Griffith's and Guts' situations aren't very much fair to compare (post-Eclipse Griffith, at least), but there are a few parallels.

I agree with what was said above by A, though.  Guts doesn't need to spill his guts (apologies for the redundancy and lame pun) any more than the rest of the group does.  They know they are in immediate danger while following Guts, but they risk it for a greater cause: And that's to get to know themselves and what they want in life more and more.  They are all maturing together and when the time comes that the pieces of Guts' and Casca's pasts are put together for them, they will all handle it maturely and not make a huge ordeal of it, I'm sure.

First post, btw.  :judo: Hopefully I can make at least five before I start looking foolish.
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Offline Blues

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2007, 04:09:11 AM »
Welcome Eva, and a pretty solid first post if I've seen one.

However, I do think (from my perspective) things are quite different. Just as with Aazealh, I believe Guts is in tune/closer to his new companions than he was with his war buddies, as to me, its just that. He's found people he can depend on him to not only fight by his side, but share other aspects of his being as well.

I don't think Guts was "reverting" when he accepted his new friends so much as just doing that, "accepting". His Black Swordsman days (in my book at least) weren't a reversion to anything, not the time between Gambino to Griffith or from Griffith to the Eclipse. He was avenging that loss, as you pointed out, the place/people he finally belonged with. It wasn't him de-maturing so much as tuning out everything as he shifted it to his one and only focus. However, once he reviews the results of him "Shutting Out" said things, such as his irresponsibility of Casca and how it turns into a burden later on (till he starts making the party with his companions after Albion) he realizes he needs (from my perspective) to take a wider look at his situation and more importantly, the people he values.

Offline Evarella

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 05:50:56 AM »
Hm, perhaps I worded what I said wrong.  Or, if you interpreted correctly, then I retract what I said about the Black Swordsman Arc.  I definitely hadn't meant to say that he was reverting, moreso that he was regressing (which is natural from trauma). 

And as for his new companions, I am in half-agreeance.  He can depend on them and rely on them for what they have to offer him as friends and as people he can share things with, but his war buddies weren't just war buddies.  I am not one of those fans that are just stuck in the Golden Age by any means, so don't get me wrong  :guts: His war buddies had taught him the lesson, however, not to take things for granted (Or Griffith, mostly, taught him that unintentionally).  Guts was irrevocably changed by them.  He became comfortable with them and, as his memories have shown in his subconscious, he shared many great times with them. 

I think him not opening up to them (or at least Judeau and Griffith) had more to do with the fact that he was younger and not had yet learned the lessons and experiences he would be put through, therefore he was more guarded and mistrusting.  Now, he is more adult and this is his 'second' time around.  So in a sense, you guys definitely are right.  He's more open (I wouldn't say closer, but open) with the new group he is currently travelling with.  However, rather than the actual group dynamics (which are my favorite aspect of the series right now, by the way), I'd chalk it more up to Guts having learned his lesson and being more wise and more of a man this time around.

His new bonds and old bonds are equal to each other in the sense that they all accumulate to effect and shape the amazing hero we have for this series. 

I also have my own theory (that I bet has been recycled here and already debated and thought of like, one hundred times on these boards..but whatever, I will pretend I am original and unique just for this moment ), or analysis, actually, that Guts had transferred all of his feelings and complex about Gambino into Griffith, which was also another reason their friendship was so complicated.  He always had to seek the same approval, and in the end he had someone who looked out for him and cared for him that ended up secretly loathing (debatable) and 'selling' (er, sacrificing) him. 

I think Guts just contemplates things in retrospect more than the average person, and he learns from his mistakes.  The new group has the pleasure of getting to know a wiser and more mature Guts.  If Guts had met the Hawks and, well, reforged half of his past relationships with the ingredients he had that makes him what he is in present-time in the series, I believe he'd have been a lot more open with people like Judeau and Griffith and them. Alas, that would ultimately make no sense, since it is those people who make him able to  :???: bond in such a way with the new group.

Wow, I am rambling and probably tired.  Anyways, I basically agree, as long as the importance of what he's been through with his old friends is acknowledged in part of helping his new bonds.   :carcus:

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 12:12:18 PM »
Hey there Evarella, welcome to SK.net. :SK:

Though I do disagree on Guts being more close to this group than he was to the Hawks.  In a sense, I feel that was an unfair comparision.  However, Guts has grown.  His relationship(s) with the Hawks taught him many things, and he no longer is the man he once was.   He's not unrecognizable by any means, but he's had a gradual change in the way he deals with his trust issues.

How's that unfair? It's a simple observation, not a contest making one group better than the other. Like I already said a lot of things happened to Guts since the time he was forced to enlist in the Band of the Hawk, and the fact he's evolved, grown and such doesn't change anything to the validity of that comparison. On the contrary, it lends it credibility. Guts is more mature now, and his group is closer to and more focused around him.

When leaving the Hawks to find his own dream, he returns to them only to realize how he had taken them for granted, and it was with them that he truly felt he belonged.

Yet he still planned to leave after rescuing Griffith. He didn't intend to stay with them. And the raiders, the men he commanded, can be argued to have been closer to him than the captains of the Hawks. Gaston in particular. They're the ones that wanted to go with him rather than stay with Griffith and the rest of the Hawks.

They are all maturing together

Yeah, bringing them closer together. :guts:

His war buddies had taught him the lesson, however, not to take things for granted (Or Griffith, mostly, taught him that unintentionally).

Yet Guts reproduced the exact same mistake than when he left the Hawks after the Eclipse (leaving Casca), and it's only in volume 17 that he truly understood the error of his ways and decided he'd never do it again. So I wouldn't say he really learned a lesson from what happened then.

Now, he is more adult and this is his 'second' time around.  So in a sense, you guys definitely are right.  He's more open (I wouldn't say closer, but open) with the new group he is currently travelling with.  However, rather than the actual group dynamics (which are my favorite aspect of the series right now, by the way), I'd chalk it more up to Guts having learned his lesson and being more wise and more of a man this time around.

It's really the two things. He's more mature and has lived more things but the group dynamics also play a big role in this situation and in the fact they're close together. Not to mention the context it's taking place in. Which is what I've been saying since the beginning, really. The two things can't go without one another, as Guts has also evolved and progressively opened himself more and more at the contact of his new group (thanks to them). I think you're lying to yourself if you believe it's just Guts being more social in general and that he's not especially close to those particular people. That seems pretty incoherent. You said yourself he's a father figure (to Isidro), that alone makes all the difference.

His new bonds and old bonds are equal to each other in the sense that they all accumulate to effect and shape the amazing hero we have for this series.

That's an artificial comparison in the current case though. Yes, they accumulate themselves and affect Guts, that much is obvious. However that's not what the point is here.

Guts had transferred all of his feelings and complex about Gambino into Griffith, which was also another reason their friendship was so complicated.  He always had to seek the same approval, and in the end he had someone who looked out for him and cared for him that ended up secretly loathing (debatable) and 'selling' (er, sacrificing) him.

I don't think that's really comparable. For one thing he wasn't seeking the same kind of approval, and the two relationships were different. You can see a vague (and ironic) pattern in these events, but I wouldn't say Guts transferred his feelings about Gambino to Griffith. Otherwise you can be sure it'd be hinted on in the manga anyway. On the contrary he kept his past locked deeply down, and while it doubtlessly affected his behavior, it didn't consciously come back until the time Casca exorcised it.

If Guts had met the Hawks and, well, reforged half of his past relationships with the ingredients he had that makes him what he is in present-time in the series, I believe he'd have been a lot more open with people like Judeau and Griffith and them.

Are you sure? Guts wouldn't be a father figure to Rickert, who was always very close to Pippin. And he wouldn't be protecting them or depending on them in the same way at all. Who would have a relationship with him like the one he has with Schierke? Or with Farnese? Or with Puck? The context is completely different and I don't see how it could be pertinent. Griffith was always exerting himself to be as cold and detached as possible, so how exactly would he and Guts have been closer? Griffith is the one that refused to acknowledge the importance Guts had, and even refused to call him a friend, though that's not something he told him to his face. And how would he have been closer to Carcus, who didn't like him? As for Judo or Pippin, I don't see how their relationship could have been improved. They were good friends and talked and everything, but that's about it. The context within the Hawks didn't and couldn't possibly have lent itself to relationships like those Guts has developed and is still developing with his current companions. The Band of the Hawk was gathered together because of Griffith, Guts' friends are together because of him.

Anyways, I basically agree, as long as the importance of what he's been through with his old friends is acknowledged in part of helping his new bonds.   :carcus:

His whole life is important. Isn't that obvious though? But that doesn't change the basic premise that he's now closer to his companions that he was to fellow mercenaries in his youth, and will become even closer to them as time goes by. It doesn't make the characters involved better or worse, it's just a different time and a different context.

Offline iamdani

Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2009, 02:11:24 AM »
I've been thinking about this recently. I was hoping to see Guts open up a bit more during the sea voyage, but I think we're past any opportunities for it now. The next logical occasion I can think of would be when he meets the Elf King. If Guts wants to help Casca then he will have to explain what has happened to her. Maybe he'll take the opportunity to explain the situation in more detail, especially since the merging of the worlds seems to properly changed the entire world.

I think his companions, even the Elf King, would appreciate knowing who's behind it all and his reasons. I don't think the group really need more reasons for going after Griffith (whenever that will happen) other than him during directly responsible for all the spirits, ghosts, magical creatures and the whole dark age, but if Guts did tell them about what happened, I think it'd seal the deal over the closeness of the group, especially with their attachment and caring for Casca. They'd be out for his head and rightly so.
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Offline Walter

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Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 02:22:45 AM »
I've been thinking about this recently. I was hoping to see Guts open up a bit more during the sea voyage, but I think we're past any opportunities for it now.
He did open up a bit to Roderick, when he was asked how he feels about Casca.
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Offline Lara Skadi

Re: Guts opening up finally?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 09:39:23 PM »
I know Aaz already said that, but I'm still going with Casca's come back clarifying a few things. I don't know if she or Guts would open heartily tell them anything, but some of their talks (or fights, we never know  :casca:) might give them some additional tips that'd put what they already know together.
I can't wait to see their reactions  :guts: