The old Band of the Hawk returneth

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Remember in vol 15 when guts fought the dead children by the camp fire?
The very same children he had killed before in Jills hometown in the barn fire?

Do you think he will see the band of the hawk and fight them one night or are they all in the vortex?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
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Jaze1618 said:
Do you think he will see the band of the hawk and fight them one night or are they all in the vortex?

They're all in the Vortex of Souls. They're not coming back. The children had died recently so they still lingered in the Astral World at the time, that's how they could appear to haunt Guts (who had killed them).
 
Do you have to have dies recently do linger in the astral world?

and do all souls go into the vortex or just the souls of ones who get involved with demons?
Sacrifices, apostlesm, not sure what else.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Jaze1618 said:
Do you have to have dies recently do linger in the astral world?

Well from what Flora said, some spirits remain there for a while after they have died, but eventually they're all supposed to move beyond.

Jaze1618 said:
and do all souls go into the vortex or just the souls of ones who get involved with demons?

Apparently not everybody ends up in the Vortex of Souls, but a lot of people do. Vargas did and he wasn't all that bad. Branded people invariably do as well, plus of course apostles and generally speaking people that are "bad." It seems innocent and fundamentally good people can escape it, but the conditions are hard to define, we just don't know enough about it at this point. The non-horrible counterpart to the Vortex has yet to be clearly mentioned or shown.
 
I know Aaz already answered the main question, but I'd just like to interject on this - no offense to Jaze1618 - but say for whatever reason the old Band of the Hawk did return, would we reallly want to see them become "enemies" (or spectral antagonists, or phantasms, or what have you) of Guts and crew? Honestly, I would think that would be a disservice to the memory a lot of us have for the characters. A small flashback, yeah, that'd be nice, but nothing more.

Besides, does anyone want to see Judeau (Or Pippen or whoever was your personal favorite) coming back evil? That'd be a real pisser.
 

Aazealh

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Staff member
Darquenaut said:
say for whatever reason the old Band of the Hawk did return, would we reallly want to see them become "enemies" (or spectral antagonists, or phantasms, or what have you) of Guts and crew? Honestly, I would think that would be a disservice to the memory a lot of us have for the characters. [...] Besides, does anyone want to see Judeau (Or Pippin or whoever was your personal favorite) coming back evil? That'd be a real pisser.

Since when does what readers want matter though? Ignoring the fact that it's just not going to happen, or that specters don't have much in the way of personality and aren't very valuable enemies/characters when taken individually, having the captains of the old Band of the Hawk come back "changed" wouldn't be a big deal assuming it was done for a good reason and not just out of the blue. In fact it's already been done through a twist in the PS2 game (which makes it all the more unlikely to ever be featured in the manga), it's the focus of the non-canon part that was added specifically for the game (the side story with Charles).
 
Aazealh said:
Since when does what readers want matter though? Ignoring the fact that it's just not going to happen, or that specters don't have much in the way of personality and aren't very valuable enemies/characters when taken individually, having the captains of the old Band of the Hawk come back "changed" wouldn't be a big deal assuming it was done for a good reason and not just out of the blue. In fact it's already been done through a twist in the PS2 game (which makes it all the more unlikely to ever be featured in the manga), it's the focus of the non-canon part that was added specifically for the game (the side story with Charles).

It was a hypothetical situation Aaz- I really don't think having the Hawks return as specters (or whatever) would serve any purpose, I was just merely speculating and seeing if we could get any more input on the thread topic.

Also, sadly, I never got a chance to play either the Dreamcast or the PS2 games, so I wasn't even aware of any of the "events" that transpired within.

But back on the topic/speculation on hand, and again heavy on the speculation here, even if the Band of the Hawk were to return as enemies/ specters/ whatever and haunted Guts for, let's say, an episode (and yes, I know how fan-ficcy that sounds, hence why it'll never happen, but regardless)- how much emotional gravitas would that even have anymore? I mean, for the reader, sure, but what of Gut's perspective? I wouldn't believe he would forget about his former comrades, but would their presence even give him a moment's hesitation? He's been living through a constant hellish state for years now and being attacked by everything from possessed trees to wagon wheels to demon dogs to even a damn goat-man. Would the sight of a ghostly Gaston even give him pause? Again, I doubt that would even happen, and even if it did I honestly think it, if anything, would just piss Guts off.
 
Darquenaut said:
But back on the topic/speculation on hand, and again heavy on the speculation here, even if the Band of the Hawk were to return as enemies/ specters/ whatever and haunted Guts for, let's say, an episode (and yes, I know how fan-ficcy that sounds, hence why it'll never happen, but regardless)- how much emotional gravitas would that even have anymore? I mean, for the reader, sure, but what of Guts perspective? I wouldn't believe he would forget about his former comrades, but would their presence even give him a moment's hesitation? He's been living through a constant hellish state for years now and being attacked by everything from possessed trees to wagon wheels to demon dogs to even a damn goat-man. Would the sight of a ghostly Gaston even give him pause? Again, I doubt that would even happen, and even if it did I honestly think it, if anything, would just piss Guts off.

That's a good question. I think seeing them wouldn't leave him unaffected, I think he might pause for even an instant but nothing more. In my most humble of opinions, I think he has seen too much shit to care about something as insignificant as the spectres of his fallen comrades too much.

As to if he were to see them while under the influence, well... :chomp:

But the real question is, when Guts and the gang reaches the island, will he find his former Hawk comrades alive and well?! I smell a Griffith gang bang of epic proportions! :troll:
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Captain Napalm said:
But the real question is, when Guts and the gang reaches the island, will he find his former Hawk comrades alive and well?!

Not sure if you're kidding, but I doubt very much that Guts will arrive on Skellig to find his former comrades alive and well.  They're in the Vortex of Souls, as Aazealh already pointed out, and from what we've seen so far, there's no way to return from there.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Darquenaut said:
It was a hypothetical situation Aaz- I really don't think having the Hawks return as specters (or whatever) would serve any purpose, I was just merely speculating and seeing if we could get any more input on the thread topic.

Not sure the thread needed much more input after Jaze1618's questions were answered, but anyway, were you really speculating on something other than the thread's topic? I mean, I was under the impression you just argued that the Hawks shouldn't come back "evil" because it'd ruin the memories of them the readers have, which I didn't find very convincing. That's what I was replying to. I'm aware anything involving the old members of the Band of the Hawks not being dead is hypothetical, don't worry.

Darquenaut said:
even if the Band of the Hawk were to return as enemies/ specters/ whatever and haunted Guts for, let's say, an episode (and yes, I know how fan-ficcy that sounds, hence why it'll never happen, but regardless)- how much emotional gravitas would that even have anymore?

You'd know if you had played the PS2 game. :carcus:

Darquenaut said:
what of Guts perspective? [...] Again, I doubt that would even happen, and even if it did I honestly think it, if anything, would just piss Guts off.
Captain Napalm said:
I think seeing them wouldn't leave him unaffected, I think he might pause for even an instant but nothing more. In my most humble of opinions, I think he has seen too much shit to care about something as insignificant as the spectres of his fallen comrades too much.

The events in the PS2 game prove you both wrong here. Guts is shown as quite affected by their sudden appearance, and distraught at their aggressiveness toward him. Of course the whole thing is told through a twist as an apostle is using Guts' mind and fears/guilt against him through illusions, but since that's the only official context in which these events will ever occur it might as well be our reference, especially since it focuses on Guts' feelings. Really, if you're going to pursue this discussion I think playing through the PS2 game (or at least watching the relevant parts) is in order. Although, at this point Darquenaut is right, if the conversation keeps going it might as well be called fan fiction and moved to Creation Station.

Captain Napalm said:
But the real question is, when Guts and the gang reaches the island, will he find his former Hawk comrades alive and well?!

In 2003, Miura very clearly expressed his view on such a hypothetical event (reviving the dead members of the Band of the Hawk) by saying it would be "lame." I hope that answers your question.
 
Aazealh said:
In 2003, Miura very clearly expressed his view on such a hypothetical event (reviving the dead members of the Band of the Hawk) by saying it would be "lame." I hope that answers your question.

I agree with him, it'd be very lame... I was just joking about them returning.
 
Aazealh said:
Not sure the thread needed much more input after Jaze1618's questions were answered, but anyway, were you really speculating on something other than the thread's topic? I mean, I was under the impression you just argued that the Hawks shouldn't come back "evil" because it'd ruin the memories of them the readers have, which I didn't find very convincing. That's what I was replying to. I'm aware anything involving the old members of the Band of the Hawks not being dead is hypothetical, don't worry.


No, I just meant the Band of the Hawk coming back, period. Having them come back "evil" was only simply implied by Jaze's commenting on them (the Hawks) coming back and Guts fighting them. When I mentioned them coming back and ruining the memories of the fans, I meant merely their presence alone (and them becoming nothing more than a simple baddie and/or plot device) would be a disservice to the fans and the characters.

For an outside example, when in the X-Men comics they initially killed off Jean Grey/ Phoenix, it was a HUGE ordeal. Then when she just came back (albeit a very long, convoluted explanation), the character's death became trivial -- and then essentially a joke after the third or fourth death/resurrection. Thankfully, I trust Miura will leave the jokes primarily to Puck and Ishidro.

Now back to the PS2 game -- first of all, sound slike I just may have to purchase myself an imported PS2 and the game. Second, I suppose one could debate the difference between an actual return of the characters in specter form, or a dream/ illusion caused by an Apostle's manipulation, but it's all just splitting hairs when it gets down to that.

The Old Band of the Hawk aren't coming back. Period. May they find a warm and cushy spot in the Vortex of Souls for all eternity.
 

berserker88

The Raging Demon
I hope they dont come back. Its a memory of what Guts lost and what Griffith did. Even if they did come back evil it would ruin the way we see such respected characters like Judeau or Pippin and regardless if there evil or not, it would be lame just like the Death and Return of Superman which was purely done for sales.
 
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