Any other programmers here?

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
I'm almost certain there's at least a couple, seeing as this forum seems to be crowded with intelligent adults.

If I'm the only one, that just sucks 'cause that means I must be a mechanerd. D:
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Dirty Dog said:
I'm almost certain there's at least a couple, seeing as this forum seems to be crowded with intelligent adults.

If I'm the only one, that just sucks 'cause that means I must be a mechanerd. D:
Define programmer. I'm a journalist by career, but I had to learn basic code to run this joint. Does that count?

If so, I don't know how you guys do it... Coding has always been a huge headache to me. My personality just really isn't suited for it. Most programming languages have so little room for error and creative input. Follow the rules! Stay within the lines! That APOSTROPHE DOESN'T GO THERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR.33333333333333333 :troll:

Admittedly, I learned PHP, HTML and some java by piecemeal implementation, and not from the ground up. So most of my knowledge is from trial and error.
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Walter said:
Define programmer. I'm a journalist by career, but I had to learn basic code to run this joint. Does that count?
Not exactly what I meant, but at least you know basic stuff.

If so, I don't know how you guys do it... Coding has always been a huge headache to me. My personality just really isn't suited for it. Most programming languages have so little room for error and creative input. Follow the rules! Stay within the lines! That APOSTROPHE DOESN'T GO THERRORERRORERRORERRORERROR.33333333333333333 :troll:
It's a headache for me when I'm learning something new. You seem intelligent, I think if you had stuck with it you'd find it easy enough. But yeah, programming languages don't like errors.

Admittedly, I learned PHP, HTML and some java by piecemeal implementation, and not from the ground up. So most of my knowledge is from trial and error.
I learned PHP and HTML through trial and error myself. Had to create a webpage for this personal project I ended up abandoning.
Java's a bit harder than both of those languages, and although I learned it for a year (in high school) I dislike it, mainly because it runs on a virtual machine. Virtual machines have their benifits (better runtime debugging, cross-platforming) but they don't currently outweigh their failures (slower programs, requires the virtual machine to run). I made a very entertaining 2D game in Java, but that was over 3 years ago.

My primary knowledge is in C++, which is also my favorite language. I like being close to the hardware, and I love using OO because it makes it much easier to develop large applications.
 

Majin_Tenshi

The can opener went bye-bye...
I graduate with a Computer Information Science degree(focused in programming) in December, and am the department's sole tutor, which mostly amounts to programming help. Does that count? :guts:

I've hardly ever touched any web programming stuff. Most of the classes at my university are tough with Java, so I'm rather familiar with that. I've got a 1/2 inch thick C++ printout from a game I wrote last spring though. An art professor forced me to work in flash for a bit and I hope I never have to touch it again. I'll be taking a PHP class in the fall so I should be proficient with it by the end of the year.

No creativity in programing? You're just not looking in the right places. Sure programming isn't very forgiving of syntactical errors (the flash "compiler" I used wasn't and I couldn't stand it) but thats like saying English isn't forgiving of how you draw your letters. The creativity comes in what you actually do with the code. At this point, I can think of several ways to do just about anything I actually know enough to do. Some of them are more efficient, some are easier to read, some are sneaky (and usually hard to read and efficient). I like the sneaky ones. This isn't allways a good thing though, in the back of my mind, theres a D&D combat runner I want to program, but I don't have the experience to pick an effective approach. I know that by the time I'm far enough in to determine an approach is bad, I'll have pages of wasted code. :judo:
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
I remember making some crappy little interactive story using this turtle type programing language in High School. it was pretty nifty and I wanted to be a programmer when I decided I was going into the Marines but they gave me Networking instead. I am glad that I changed, the programmers got phased out and ended up being web page monkey's.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Majin Tenshi said:
No creativity in programing? You're just not looking in the right places. Sure programming isn't very forgiving of syntactical errors (the flash "compiler" I used wasn't and I couldn't stand it) but thats like saying English isn't forgiving of how you draw your letters.
Well, I understand there have to be rules, but my qualm is when something is coded "perfectly" but has a misplaced , where it should be a ,; or some bullshit, and it won't operate at all ... it's just pretty frustrating for a novice like myself. In the English language however, if you misplace a comma or an apostrophe, you' may be regarded as one of the uneducated masses, but people will still UNDERSTAND what you're writing, generally speaking.
 

Serpico

Farnese is the bomb diggity
I am a CS major so I program, although it is really more of a math degree. I've done the programming logic and design courses; in fall I'll take C++ then advanced C++ in the spring. Right now I use Python, C++, actionscript, and PHP. I am more interested in things like advancing physics engines and simulations, or working in AI than punching out code for software though.
 

Majin_Tenshi

The can opener went bye-bye...
Walter said:
Well, I understand there have to be rules, but my qualm is when something is coded "perfectly" but has a misplaced , where it should be a ,; or some bullshit, and it won't operate at all ... it's just pretty frustrating for a novice like myself. In the English language however, if you misplace a comma or an apostrophe, you' may be regarded as one of the uneducated masses, but people will still UNDERSTAND what you're writing, generally speaking.
Well, I've never touched PHP so I can't say... HTML probably doesn't tell you when you've got errors much since its scripting, but anything that compiles should tell you most of the time when theres a syntax error and at least what line its on. That should take care of the outright not working problem usually. Theres still the occasional error like:

while(x<100); //the semicolon ends the loop body so it loops forever cause x can never change (assumeing single threaded)

but you learn to see those sorts of mistakes after you make them a handful of times.
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Walter said:
Well, I understand there have to be rules, but my qualm is when something is coded "perfectly" but has a misplaced , where it should be a ,; or some bullshit, and it won't operate at all ... it's just pretty frustrating for a novice like myself. In the English language however, if you misplace a comma or an apostrophe, you' may be regarded as one of the uneducated masses, but people will still UNDERSTAND what you're writing, generally speaking.

Well, the reason compilers don't do that as well is because it'd take forever to compile. But if someone really wanted to make a compiler for novices, they could. It'd just make compiling a chore because it'd take so damn long.

@Serpico: Interesting, you're a CS major? o_O
I didn't bother wasting my parents' (or my future) money, I wouldn't even have gotten a degree because I wouldn't have taken any unrelated classes. So I'm almost completely self-taught, though I've been learning some stuff from an old school x86 programmer.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
My first, and likely LAST PHP project coded entirely by myself (I've "borrowed" code from other SMF forums to make ours look spiffy):

http://www.skullknight.net/roster/

This thing's a mess. You should see the code. But hey, it works! Maybe I should post portions of it here so you pros can debunk it :guts:

... please? :judo:
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Walter said:
My first, and likely LAST PHP project coded entirely by myself (I've "borrowed" code from other SMF forums to make ours look spiffy):

http://www.skullknight.net/roster/

This thing's a mess. You should see the code. But hey, it works! Maybe I should post portions of it here so you pros can debunk it :guts:

... please? :judo:

...
Warning: mysql_num_rows(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/walter/public_html/encyclopedia/appendix/roster.php on line 146

Warning: mysql_fetch_array(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/walter/public_html/encyclopedia/appendix/roster.php on line 151

Yeah, may be a good idea, lol.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Well, that's if you don't select any boxes at all and are going out of your way to point out my script's glaring flaws :puck: ... :ganishka:

So, you're saying I should have another script run to provide an answer when someone chooses nothing, something redundant like: "Puny human, are you trying to outwit a demi-god? I can clearly see you failed to choose any relevant information to search for. Prepare to suffer the consequences." Right?
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Walter said:
Well, that's if you don't select any boxes at all and are going out of your way to point out my script's glaring flaws :puck: ... :ganishka:
Well, feel free to post it I guess, or maybe just PM it to someone.
btw, the images at the top of the result page are dead links to me. o_O


anyway, seems I've finally made a topic people wanna post on :troll:
Re: Any other programmers here? by Dirty Dog (Shootin' the Breeze) Today at 09:06:37 PM
Re: Any other programmers here? by Walter (Shootin' the Breeze) Today at 08:52:07 PM
Re: Any other programmers here? by Dirty Dog (Shootin' the Breeze) Today at 08:27:40 PM
Re: Any other programmers here? by Walter (Shootin' the Breeze) Today at 08:03:35 PM
Re: Any other programmers here? by Dirty Dog (Shootin' the Breeze) Today at 07:56:21 PM
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Dirty Dog said:
Well, feel free to post it I guess, or maybe just PM it to someone.
btw, the images at the top of the result page are dead links to me. o_O
I'll grab some of the code and post it here later tonight when I get off work. The broken images just need to be updated, since I changed several image locations during the server change. Easily remedied, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.

anyway, seems I've finally made a topic people wanna post on :troll:
Yeah, well, you and me anyway :carcus:
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Walter said:
I'll grab some of the code and post it here later tonight when I get off work. The broken images just need to be updated, since I changed several image locations during the server change. Easily remedied, but thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Alright, I'll probably be going for a nice midnight walk soon.. summers are great for that.
Maybe I can check it out when I get back, althought PHP isn't exactly my primary language.
Yeah, well, you and me anyway :carcus:
Serpico and Tenshi, too. :p

anyway, since it seems we've got 3 C-syntax programmers here, maybe we could do something. Maybe a 2d Berserk game for SK.net? :troll:
Though I guess we ought to find out how many SK.net members use Unix/Linux or mac before we get to work on that...
 

RealHarlekin

Me hungry!
Talking about programmers... I've got an Honours degree in software engineering and am just about finishing my thesis for the second degree in computer science and therefore "speaking" all C-dialects, Java, PHP, Perl, ... As I am kind of a lazy writer, I did not join the thread earlier, but this comment hit my spot:

Dirty Dog said:
anyway, since it seems we've got 3 C-syntax programmers here, maybe we could do something. Maybe a 2d Berserk game for SK.net? :troll:
Though I guess we ought to find out how many SK.net members use Unix/Linux or mac before we get to work on that...

But why 2D? I think 3D would be easier (sounds strange in first place). For 2D you need a lot of sprites, meaning a lot of drawing effort. As part of my project in the last year of my software eng studies was coding a 3D game I can say, that it is not that hard (after getting used to it). I used the open source graphics engine Ogre3d, making it quite easy to create a small C++ startup programm and being independent of the OS. I created graphical content using Blender (open source as well) and if I wasn't so busy with my thesis, I would have improved the "game" (for now its only collision detection, pushing blocks, 3rd person camera and a blender generated room to move around and demonstrate collision).

I have seen Grayscale beeing firm with 3D-models (http://skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=7877.0). Mixed with the couple of artists (Photoshoppers) that could provide textures and some programmers (us) we could give it a try (after my thesis)!

(This idea is lurking at the back of my head for some time now :carcus: )
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
If you guys really want to make Berserk games then I'd highly recommend using Flash and sticking to small projects at first. Incredibly less complicated to make and potentially as entertaining provided a little imagination is thrown in the mix. Also, it would actually have a chance of being finished and functional, as opposed to a bigger project. Ah and also people could play it directly from SK.net without having to bother themselves.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
RealHarlekin said:
But why 2D? I think 3D would be easier (sounds strange in first place).

Not true. Its a decision of where your talent lies combined with the kind of game you're creating.

Like aaz said, if you were to create a game, start with something smaller in scope (Flash is a good example).
 

Serpico

Farnese is the bomb diggity
Dirty Dog said:
@Serpico: Interesting, you're a CS major? o_O
I didn't bother wasting my parents' (or my future) money, I wouldn't even have gotten a degree because I wouldn't have taken any unrelated classes. So I'm almost completely self-taught, though I've been learning some stuff from an old school x86 programmer.

Yup, and trust me it is worth it and the only way to do the things I want to do, but thus far I have not spent any money, and hopefully I can keep it that way. Between grants and scholarships I have a net gain each semester. If you are implying a CS degree is not worthwhile you should look here

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Bachelor_of_Science_(BS)_in_Computer_Science/Salary

Entry level salary is around 60k in any major city and easily goes up to double that. I am not down on being self taught, but CS is not just programming or learning things one can teach themselves too easily. You need something like 4 calculus classes, advanced trig and algebra, a few computer maths, a few physics courses, and depending on your focus varied amounts of electrical engineering and programming. Sure, a CS grad CAN be a software engineer, sysAdmin, or IT guy, OR they can be the person who builds the tools and develops the principles that those folks operate with, and for that you really do need all that math. I have more interest in advancing things rather than just working with what is already there. All in all its an extremely versatile degree that goes beyond any single area of technology.



On the matter of 2D or 3D, I think that primarily depends whether you have a 2D or 3D artist available who has the time to push out content. Here is the experimental flash I started but I am a little busy with summer session at the moment
http://www.ninetenths.org/cleaned_game.html
I still need change the mapping to use an array, and set up some spawning rules and AI for enemies. After that it should be easy to allow anyone who want to to make tiles, characters, and content for it. After spring I should be able to code 3D stuff and I am sure I will, however just as Aaz and CnC say Flash is still really far more practical as far as actually completing something. Not that some 3D berserk demos wouldn't totally kick ass though.
 

RealHarlekin

Me hungry!
CnC said:
Not true. Its a decision of where your talent lies combined with the kind of game you're creating.
That's why I supposed 3D as my artistic dispositions tend to zero...

I haven't laid hands on flash yet, so I can't give a qualified statement about it. But still it involves some skills in drawing... And that's more the job of guys like this one: :miura:
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
RealHarlekin said:
That's why I supposed 3D as my artistic dispositions tend to zero...

Well if your artistic dispositions are truly inexistent then 3D or 2D wouldn't change anything, I mean an ugly 3D model isn't better than an ugly 2D drawing.

But really, if you guys seriously (and not just for the next 2 days) want to make Berserk games, I'll be very willing to give you ideas for games that'd be simple, fun and addictive.
 

Dirty Dog

Avatar by CnC ^^
Aazealh said:
If you guys really want to make Berserk games then I'd highly recommend using Flash and sticking to small projects at first. Incredibly less complicated to make and potentially as entertaining provided a little imagination is thrown in the mix. Also, it would actually have a chance of being finished and functional, as opposed to a bigger project. Ah and also people could play it directly from SK.net without having to bother themselves.

Because I don't know Flash/ActionScript and don't really have any intention of learning. I like C++ plz. >=(

RealHarlekin said:
Talking about programmers... I've got an Honours degree in software engineering and am just about finishing my thesis for the second degree in computer science and therefore "speaking" all C-dialects, Java, PHP, Perl, ... As I am kind of a lazy writer, I did not join the thread earlier, but this comment hit my spot:

But why 2D? I think 3D would be easier (sounds strange in first place). For 2D you need a lot of sprites, meaning a lot of drawing effort. As part of my project in the last year of my software eng studies was coding a 3D game I can say, that it is not that hard (after getting used to it). I used the open source graphics engine Ogre3d, making it quite easy to create a small C++ startup programm and being independent of the OS. I created graphical content using Blender (open source as well) and if I wasn't so busy with my thesis, I would have improved the "game" (for now its only collision detection, pushing blocks, 3rd person camera and a blender generated room to move around and demonstrate collision).

I have seen Grayscale beeing firm with 3D-models (http://skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=7877.0). Mixed with the couple of artists (Photoshoppers) that could provide textures and some programmers (us) we could give it a try (after my thesis)!

(This idea is lurking at the back of my head for some time now :carcus: )
Why 2D instead of 3D? Because it isn't a matter of graphics work, that's something I could do myself if necissary.
I would've suggest 3D if it weren't for the fact that I've never done any 3D graphics programming, and believe that either simply using Windows GDI or setting up an orthographic projection in OpenGL would likely be much easier to develop (not to mention run much better on the average computer) than a 3D game in OpenGL or DirectX.
Beyond that, I find working in 3D space confusing (it's why I failed advanced pre-calculus in high school), while working in 2D space is simple.

Serpico said:
Yup, and trust me it is worth it and the only way to do the things I want to do, but thus far I have not spent any money, and hopefully I can keep it that way. Between grants and scholarships I have a net gain each semester. If you are implying a CS degree is not worthwhile you should look here

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Bachelor_of_Science_(BS)_in_Computer_Science/Salary

Entry level salary is around 60k in any major city and easily goes up to double that. I am not down on being self taught, but CS is not just programming or learning things one can teach themselves too easily. You need something like 4 calculus classes, advanced trig and algebra, a few computer maths, a few physics courses, and depending on your focus varied amounts of electrical engineering and programming. Sure, a CS grad CAN be a software engineer, sysAdmin, or IT guy, OR they can be the person who builds the tools and develops the principles that those folks operate with, and for that you really do need all that math. I have more interest in advancing things rather than just working with what is already there. All in all its an extremely versatile degree that goes beyond any single area of technology.
And now you assume I care about how much money I make. I hate money (although I know it's necissary for daily life within our current social structure >.>), and to be honest never intend to make much any more than my parents did while I was growing up (they were both factory workers til I was about 12 or so, then my dad became a letter carrier and my mom became a home health aid).
Anyway, I've been learning to program to meet my own personal goals, not for profit or for anyone else.
Also, I dunno what school you go to, but all the schools I checked out required more credit hours between english and social science classes than they did in computer science. (for an associate's, anyway).

On the matter of 2D or 3D, I think that primarily depends whether you have a 2D or 3D artist available who has the time to push out content. Here is the experimental flash I started but I am a little busy with summer session at the moment
http://www.ninetenths.org/cleaned_game.html
I still need change the mapping to use an array, and set up some spawning rules and AI for enemies. After that it should be easy to allow anyone who want to to make tiles, characters, and content for it. After spring I should be able to code 3D stuff and I am sure I will, however just as Aaz and CnC say Flash is still really far more practical as far as actually completing something. Not that some 3D berserk demos wouldn't totally kick ass though.
If we're going for dev speed, we may as well just make it a DHTLM / JScript game (believe me, I've seen some good ones). :|
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Dirty Dog said:
Because I don't know Flash/ActionScript and don't really have any intention of learning. I like C++ plz. >=(

Well I wasn't asking a question, just giving advice.
 

Majin_Tenshi

The can opener went bye-bye...
From what I've read about you lot wanting to make a Berserk game, I'd suggest you take the approach I've taken with all my major programming projects: Work in stages of functionality. Start out with simple goals, but design those goals so that they can be advanced upon. WIth something like flash, I think you'll hit a wall at some point, I recomend C++.

My last 3d project was with openGL, and I've always had a good head for "spatial reasoning," so a 3d game doesn't sound too bad. I'm vaguely competent1 with 3d graphics , but I've always done movie level poly counts rather then game level.

The biggest problem I see is I don't know the math for 3d collisions with rotations. I've considered it some and haven't been able to devise an effective approach myself. I think that means its either annoyingly simple or mind-numbingly complex (or maybe in a way, both). I imagine its something that wouldn't be too hard to look up, but I consider not being able to effectively solve one of the fundamental problems of the project myself to be a bad sign.

If you're tallent pool doesn't have a head for it though, I s'pose its a bad idea.

From what I can tell, we've got a wide variety of skill levels here. Unless I misread, we've got novice, college, and career level programmers. Now I've never really worked on a group project2, but the varying skill levels in this group seem like an extra complication in addition to the normal dificulties.

Anyways, even after saying all that... I don't have the attention span for this project. :troll:

1 I've come a bit since my golem, but there are some very skilled people around that put me in the dust
2 Isn't it widely accepted that if possible, its better to have one person write the whole program?
 

Serpico

Farnese is the bomb diggity
Dirty Dog said:
Also, I dunno what school you go to, but all the schools I checked out required more credit hours between english and social science classes than they did in computer science. (for an associate's, anyway).
If we're going for dev speed, we may as well just make it a DHTLM / JScript game (believe me, I've seen some good ones). :|

That is because a real degree usually requires at least a year and a half worth of genEd stuff so if you are talking about an associates which is a 2 year degree, the genEd portion will dominate it. If you want short termed focused studies then you would be better off doing certifications; it is advisable in many cases really. It does not take a CS major to be your average network or system Admin. Those kinds of certifications take 6 months to a year.


What development tools are you guys using for C++? I have DevC++ and Borland Builder at the moment. Not sure yet what my class will use in the fall though.
 
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