Author Topic: Episode 287  (Read 49106 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2007, 04:23:30 PM »
I don't thing Schierke has come to terms with it, either.  They just have different ways of going about it.

Well she's come near enough that she could have handled hearing the obvious had Farnese not suddenly gone back to her body.

Also worth mentioning is that none present, aside from Guts himself, knew Casca before the Eclipse - all they've seen is her current, broken self.

Yeah, this is what will make their introduction to each other interesting. She's all so familiar to them, I mean Farnese has been washing her everyday, Isidro has saved her life several times, etc. Yet they don't really know her, and she doesn't know them at all. Guts himself isn't the man he was in volume 13 anymore.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2007, 04:36:43 PM »
Well she's come near enough that she could have handled hearing the obvious had Farnese not suddenly gone back to her body.
Is that what that panel was about, with Schierke clutching her staff and visibly trembling?

Quote
Yeah, this is what will make their introduction to each other interesting. She's all so familiar to them, I mean Farnese has been washing her everyday, Isidro has saved her life several times, etc. Yet they don't really know her, and she doesn't know them at all. Guts himself isn't the man he was in volume 13 anymore.
Yeah, good point. I think I like the man Guts has become even more than his superstardom days. Wonder how Casca will take it though. Who could turn Guts down?

Anyway, as many have before me, I wonder if when Casca awakens if it'll be effectively be a "restart" for her memories, or she'll retain some of her experiences since the Eclipse.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2007, 04:40:28 PM »
Is that what that panel was about, with Schierke clutching her staff and visibly trembling?

Clutching her staff yes, trembling no. Way to miss my point though.

Anyway, as many have before me, I wonder if when Casca awakens if it'll be effectively be a "restart" for her memories, or she'll retain some of her experiences since the Eclipse.

I often wonder about that, or even if she could just become completely amnesic while regaining her sanity. Wait & see I guess.

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2007, 04:57:13 PM »
Clutching her staff yes, trembling no. Way to miss my point though.

I don't think he did.  The narrative focus was on Farnese not wanting to hear it, snapping back to her body in a "losing her concentration"-type of way.  Just because Schierke is able to maintain her astral form doesn't necessarily mean she can somehow cope with the information much better.  In fact, I'm pretty sure thats why Miura inserted that panel.

We'll find out eventually as to how Casca deals with regained sanity I suppose.  I have this hunch that even with her mind back, she'll have some instinctual fear/aggression left over from her current state.  Perhaps to further speculate on that thought the Guts/Farnese/Schierke situation would be advanced by some big rejection of Guts by Casca.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2007, 05:01:50 PM »
Just because Schierke is able to maintain her astral form doesn't necessarily mean she can somehow cope with the information much better.

Doesn't it? Seems to me that it didn't affect her as badly. Her clutching her staff shows she's uneasy about it, but not as emotionally unstable as Farnese.

Perhaps to further speculate on that thought the Guts/Farnese/Schierke situation would be advanced by some big rejection of Guts by Casca.

I don't know about that, Guts doesn't seem to really have any romantic interest in either of them, while Casca's basically been the beacon of light that has kept him from darkness. I don't think he could just throw himself in the arms of another woman were she to reject him. In fact he's more than ever going to need her and the peace she can bring him.

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2007, 05:08:47 PM »
Doesn't it? Seems to me that it didn't affect her as badly. Her clutching her staff shows she's uneasy about it, but not as emotionally unstable as Farnese.

No I don't think it does.  This was the first time for Farnese, Schierke's able to stay out of body in very stressful situations.  Without bringing this debate to who "Whos more stable"-line of thought, that panel where Schierke clutches her staff had to be inserted to show that emotion.
I don't think theres enough here to prove who's more comfortable with the reality of Guts' feelings, as ridiculous as the argument is.  Seriously, I almost miss the "Guts iron arm is alive just like the DS"-debate...  :schierke:
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Offline MaN

Re: Episode 287
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2007, 05:10:51 PM »
Thanks Saiyi.

I hope the head honcho elfo can do something about the superficial scarring on Guts body. I am sure its very time consuming for Miura :miura: to have to draw all those burn marks (?) in every panel.... Of course Guts could be in the armor all the time which would solve that. However its the armor that made him look like that in the first place (Catch 22  :beast:)

Nice nostaligic episode although the shot of Guts with the amputated arm made me crack up for some sick reason and reminded me of Slan in Qliphoth ?!

Edit: Casca's hair make it seem like she is smiling when she is falling down.
When there is nothing left to burn... you must set yourself on Fire

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2007, 05:15:47 PM »
This was the first time for Farnese, Schierke's able to stay out of body in very stressful situations.

Not wanting to hear it isn't just a stressful situation though, it's refusal and denial.

Without bringing this debate to who "Whos more stable"-line of thought

Well yeah, because I think we can agree that Farnese is the least stable.

I don't think theres enough here to prove who's more comfortable with the reality of Guts' feelings, as ridiculous as the argument is.

No, but all the previous scenes shown in the manga in that regard can help us guess.

I am sure its very time consuming for Miura :miura: to have to draw all those burn marks (?) in every panel.... Of course Guts could be in the armor all the time which would solve that. However its the armor that made him look like that in the first place (Catch 22  :beast:)

The burn marks are because Schierke invoked the Blaze Wheel on the DS though, it's not really because of the armor.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2007, 05:16:54 PM »
If Casca does somehow regain her sanity and can recall all that's happened to her since the eclipse, how do you think she'll feel about the memory of Guts attacking her?  Guts could explain what happened, but she may still feel uneasy around him for a while.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2007, 05:20:19 PM »
If Casca does somehow regain her sanity and can recall all that's happened to her since the eclipse, how do you think she'll feel about the memory of Guts attacking her?  Guts could explain what happened, but she may still feel uneasy around him for a while.

Well she'd also remember all the times he saved her risking his own life so... Remember these brief scenes in volume 23 were we saw him letting her eat his share of their food and all that? That's basically what their daily life has been since the beginning of their journey.

Offline Walter

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2007, 05:23:00 PM »
If Casca does somehow regain her sanity and can recall all that's happened to her since the eclipse, how do you think she'll feel about the memory of Guts attacking her?  Guts could explain what happened, but she may still feel uneasy around him for a while.
Yeah, like Aaz said, I can't imagine she'd just remember the bad and not the good aspects of the duration of her mental retardation. Even if she did, she'd really have to sympathize with all Guts has been through after the eclipse... I'm not condoning rape, but I believe there's some leeway with such mitigating circumstances.
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Offline jackson_hurley

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2007, 05:25:23 PM »
If Casca does somehow regain her sanity and can recall all that's happened to her since the eclipse, how do you think she'll feel about the memory of Guts attacking her?  Guts could explain what happened, but she may still feel uneasy around him for a while.

well i figure that if she forgave him the time they made love together for the first time (when he choked her) that she might be able to forgive him again (that is if she remembers some of her past time before the eclipse and or after)

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2007, 05:27:19 PM »
Not wanting to hear it isn't just a stressful situation though, it's refusal and denial.

Unlike imminent death, which is a cake-walk  :schierke:

Well yeah, because I think we can agree that Farnese is the least stable.

No, but all the previous scenes shown in the manga in that regard can help us guess.

Yea yea...  you've twisted this conversation up nicely.  Rather than fall into the pitfall of arguing that Farnese is somehow more stable than Schierke, which is both what I said we should try to avoid as a stupid argument and not really what the point was, I think we should stick to your original assertion that Schierke is somehow "more resigned with the truth".  I'm saying this set of events doesn't prove that.

I suppose we can go to "Well, (insert argument about the definition of 'resigned')" here...  :schierke:
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Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2007, 05:38:29 PM »
Well she'd also remember all the times he saved her risking his own life so... Remember these brief scenes in volume 23 were we saw him letting her eat his share of their food and all that? That's basically what their daily life has been since the beginning of their journey.

Yeah, that's true.  There were many more good times than bad.  I think in the end, she'd understand the situation, like Wally said, with all that Guts went through during and after the eclipse.  That and demon possession isn't all that out there, with all the shit they've seen during their journey.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2007, 06:34:17 PM »
Unlike imminent death, which is a cake-walk  :schierke:

What's the relation? Having been in threatening situations makes you emotionally resistant or something? What a comparison... And how can you tell which part of her going back to her body was her (more or less unconscious) desire not to know and which part was loss of concentration due to stress? Because you've been saying she's not stable enough to have been able to keep her concentration. *twist*

I think we should stick to your original assertion that Schierke is somehow "more resigned with the truth".  I'm saying this set of events doesn't prove that.

Yeah and like I told you, "all the previous scenes shown in the manga in that regard can help us guess." It's not just about that particular set of events but her attitude in general. But yeah, maybe Schierke's always hoping Guts will come bed her one night or something, she's already twelve after all. :schierke:

In the end, I think even her clutching her staff is up to interpretation, it could denote a variety of feelings (of varying intensity) and not just the equivalent of Farnese' rather violent reaction. Anyway, because you seem to disappreciate the discussion I'll agree to disagree with you on that matter and I propose we move on.

Yeah, that's true.  There were many more good times than bad.  I think in the end, she'd understand the situation, like Wally said, with all that Guts went through during and after the eclipse.  That and demon possession isn't all that out there, with all the shit they've seen during their journey.

Yup, and actually there's really only one time for which Guts can be held accountable. The time he strangled her while possessed doesn't count because he basically took the hit for her and then didn't control himself, the real deal was when he found her after she killed those thugs and forcibly kissed her, then bit her nipple hard enough to draw blood. That was an honest to goodness moment of madness, and it's really what he should be apologizing for. It all comes down to the fact that Casca is probably the only thing that can cure him of the Beast of Darkness, which also makes you think back on how she was always the Beast's first target and object of temptation.

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2007, 06:47:56 PM »
it could denote a variety of feelings (of varying intensity) and not just the equivalent of Farnese' rather violent reaction.

And its that variety that makes nothing about Schierke's ability to handle the news definitive.  My stance from the beginning, mind you.

and I propose we move on.

I accept the concession.  Move on we shall!  :troll:

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Offline Griffith

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2007, 07:12:47 PM »
I think Schierke was bothered more by what Guts was saying and the tension Farnese's feelings pose than any astral protocol that may have been broken (but I am a sexist pig). Lets see if she berates Farnese about it in the future (she technically never explained how to come down =).

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2007, 07:18:47 PM »
That was an honest to goodness moment of madness, and it's really what she should be apologizing for.

Why do you think Casca should apologize for it?  Or is that a typo?

It all comes down to the fact that Casca is probably the only thing that can cure him of the Beast of Darkness, which also makes you think back on how she was always the Beast's first target and object of temptation.

It's not surprising that the Beast doesn't want to be cured, so it makes sense that it would go after Casca first.  Or can we even think of the Beast in that way?  Can it be considered a conscious entity separate from Guts?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2007, 07:29:51 PM »
And its that variety that makes nothing about Schierke's ability to handle the news definitive.  My stance from the beginning, mind you.

Still ignoring all the previous character development here, not to mention the fundamental differences between the characters themselves.

Why do you think Casca should apologize for it?  Or is that a typo?

Whoops, yeah I meant "he", obviously.

It's not surprising that the Beast doesn't want to be cured, so it makes sense that it would go after Casca first.  Or can we even think of the Beast in that way?  Can it be considered a conscious entity separate from Guts?

Well it's personified so it's hard not to think of it as a character of its own. However it's true it's really "just" a part of Guts' psyche, though its creation still remains mysterious to this day.

Offline puella

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2007, 07:37:56 PM »
I read some discussion about the possibility of Guts eventually losing his eyesight. It would really be dramatically sad if it happened while Casca reversely regained herself at last. Then she'd have to take care of him. Of course I hope it won't happen, but the kind of dramatic possibilities that are left open amaze me.

By the way, I love Roderick with his hair untied. He's sexy!! :guts:
And I do hope Miura won't leave Guts with tons of scars forever. :miura:

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2007, 08:03:26 PM »
I read some discussion about the possibility of Guts eventually losing his eyesight. It would really be dramatically sad if it happened while Casca reversely regained herself at last. Then she'd have to take care of him. Of course I hope it won't happen, but the kind of dramatic possibilities that are left open amaze me.

I honestly don't see how Guts can go much longer with the armor.  Between the ridiculous amount of scarring, and the loss of the senses the cons have got to outweigh the pros.
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Offline Baldulf

Re: Episode 287
« Reply #121 on: July 13, 2007, 10:07:38 PM »
What a wonderful episode! So metaphoric! (thanks for the scans Saiya!)


One thing is sure,even if Casca regain her mind it's not going to be nice to Guts.

And I always wondered (now that you are talking about Guts forcing Casca) why Casca reminds clearly being raped by the apostles but not being raped by Griffith.

Is she going to forget about Femto/Griffith raping her but she won't forget (or forgive) Guts trying to do the same?

Poor old Guts.Being tortured by fate is not a great deal.
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Offline Mista_B

Re: Episode 287
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2007, 10:15:23 PM »
I honestly don't see how Guts can go much longer with the armor.  Between the ridiculous amount of scarring, and the loss of the senses the cons have got to outweigh the pros.

On the other hand, not wearing the armor seens to lead inevitably to him and his friends being easily slaughtered by Apostles. Either way, he's fucked unless the elf king can help him out somehow.

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 287
« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2007, 10:16:39 PM »
And I always wondered (now that you are talking about Guts forcing Casca) why Casca reminds clearly being raped by the apostles but not being raped by Griffith.

She wasn't raped by any Apostles, from what I remember.  Just Femto.

Offline Baldulf

Re: Episode 287
« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2007, 10:20:30 PM »
Well,"forced" instead,if you like.

But you know what I'm talking about.(Her only memory seems to be the bunch of apostles closing around her,so in the end is almost the same)
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