Episode 287

CnC said:
jeez, Smith. Just, wow....

for the last time, the artificial arm DIDN'T grab Casca at ALL. Thats the fuckin' point.

Argh... You didnt know what i meant... fine...

OF COURSE for christ sake he wasnt expecting his fake arm to GRIP Casca hand, and that could explained his shocked face because he is using the WRONG hand...

just to clarify with Aaz in fact...

Anyway Snydrome I go with ur suggestion, guess he really forgot at that instant its a fake arm he is reaching out for her...

Case closed!
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Smith said:
OF COURSE for christ sake he wasnt expecting his fake arm to GRIP Casca hand, and that could explained his shocked face because he is using the WRONG hand...

"Wrong" isn't quite how I'd put it. its the only "hand" he could offer as the other was holding on to the rope. The look of "shock" as you put it was the realization that he CAN'T grab her. But honestly, this should be obvious.

Smith said:
Argh... You didnt know what i meant... fine... !

Glad to hear you've changed theories from the ridiculous (Guts' arm is imbued with the same "magic" as the DS) to the obvious. Glad you brought it up.
 
thesyndrome said:
and if you look through all his memories in this episode- whenever Casca is falling, he saves her with his left hand (i doubt this was a coincidence), so it was such a reflex to use his left hand that for a moment he forgot all about it being prosthetic, and then it came back to bite him in the ass.

i must admit, i am curious how guts can hold his sword/ close his fist (like when he was punching the iron chain knights in V16/17), but couldnt close it when Casca was falling? i guess you need to take the whole "magnet in his palm" thing with a pinch of salt...otherwise, every time he closed his fist, he would never be able to open it (its got enough power to keep his DS steady, so its gotta be a powerful magnet...)

Because Casca isn't a hulking piece of metal? :chomp: Nice observation on the left hand thing though, never noticed it myself.
 
yota821 said:
Because Casca isn't a hulking piece of metal? :chomp: Nice observation on the left hand thing though, never noticed it myself.

i was referring to how sometimes the hand is closed, but then a few pages later it is open, and then closed again? it implies that he has some control over whether it makes a fist (clenching) or open...but perhaps its clenched form isnt that tight and couldnt grip caska tight enough? like i said, a pinch of salt is needed when questioning a select few berserk events/items

(the fingers never separate unless he is taken over by the berserker armour, which i do think is very interesting...go take a look at some of his fights; for example when he grabs grunbelds cannon shield)
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
thesyndrome said:
i was referring to how sometimes the hand is closed, but then a few pages later it is open, and then closed again? it implies that he has some control over whether it makes a fist (clenching) or open...but perhaps its clenched form isnt that tight and couldnt grip Casca tight enough? like i said, a pinch of salt is needed when questioning a select few berserk events/items

(the fingers never separate unless he is taken over by the berserker armour, which i do think is very interesting...go take a look at some of his fights; for example when he grabs grunbelds cannon shield)

I believe that the spring on the back of the arm provides the tension needed to close the fingers. Guts hasn't ever really swung the sword just with the metal arm alone (but he has kinda held it on vol 19). An yea, the fingers don't spread. Anyways the exact specs of the arm arent really explained and are left to the imagination...
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Smith said:
Argh... You didnt know what i meant... fine...

You're the one at fault here Smith, so be nice and behave a little, Ok? You're the one not understanding simple scenes and not expressing yourself correctly, be thankful people even spend their time explaining these things to you.

thesyndrome said:
i guess you need to take the whole "magnet in his palm" thing with a pinch of salt...

Yes, it's one of those things for which you need to suspend disbelief. The way Miura makes it work is clever and I think most of the situations involving the artificial forearm are believable, but they're not all completely realistic, it's just not possible. Like yota821 said, the magnets give him a good grip on metallic objects but not on anything else, and as for opening and closing the hand itself, we can always imagine that he gives it a jolt when needed, or even that he sometimes opens/closes the fist off-screen with his valid hand. There's also the spring at the elbow that could play a role like CnC said, but its use isn't really clear. In any case it's useless to try to rationalize it too much.

thesyndrome said:
(the fingers never separate unless he is taken over by the berserker armour, which i do think is very interesting...go take a look at some of his fights; for example when he grabs grunbelds cannon shield)

On his artificial forearm the fingers can't even physically move in certain ways, it's a normal limitation for such an object. The Berserk's Armor is magical however, so he can move "its" hand freely without anything physically animating it.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Aazealh said:
Yes, it's one of those things for which you need to suspend disbelief. The way Miura makes it work is clever and I think most of the situations involving the artificial forearm are believable, but they're not all completely realistic, it's just not possible. Like yota821 said, the magnets give him a good grip on metallic objects but not on anything else, and as for opening and closing the hand itself, we can always imagine that he gives it a jolt when needed, or even that he sometimes opens/closes the fist off-screen with his valid hand. There's also the spring at the elbow that could play a role like CnC said, but its use isn't really clear. In any case it's useless to try to rationalize it too much.

Well, to go into rational speculation on the magnet; It might be possible for the fingers to be insulated. Or maybe the fingers are fitted with magnets arranged so that they meet the same polarity as the one in the palm, producing a repulsive force. Rickert was obviously pretty clever so I wouldn't be surprised if he thought a way around that problem.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
Well, to go into rational speculation on the magnet; It might be possible for the fingers to be insulated. Or maybe the fingers are fitted with magnets arranged so that they meet the same polarity as the one in the palm, producing a repulsive force.

But then how could the fist stay closed? And the artificial forearm wasn't created by Rickert, he just integrated the cannon into it. Both the forearm and the cannon were made by Godot.
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Aazealh said:
But then how could the fist stay closed? And the artificial forearm wasn't created by Rickert, he just integrated the cannon into it. Both the forearm and the cannon were made by Godot.

Due to the magnets in the fingers having enough force to counteract the magnet in the palm but not enough to affect the natural tension of the finger mechanisms. Didn't Rickert modify the Artificial Limb by adding the Magnet in the palm in the first place? it seems like a moot point to argue that he didn't modify it in other ways that explain how it could realistically do what is attributed to it. Or even that it didn't already have those design features.
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Forest Wraith said:
Due to the magnets in the fingers having enough force to counteract the magnet in the palm but not enough to affect the natural tension of the finger mechanisms. Didn't Rickert modify the Artificial Limb by adding the Magnet in the palm in the first place? it seems like a moot point to argue that he didn't modify it in other ways that explain how it could realistically do what is attributed to it. Or even that it already had those design features.

Dude, no. Just no. You're waaay over thinking this.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Forest Wraith said:
Due to the magnets in the fingers having enough force to counteract the magnet in the palm but not enough to affect the natural tension of the finger mechanisms.

But that still wouldn't explain the scenes that are our concern. And in a lot of cases the fingers don't seem to have any natural tension.

Forest Wraith said:
Didn't Rickert modify the Artificial Limb by adding the Magnet in the palm in the first place?

I don't think so, no. The hand was already like that, he just mounted it on the cannon. Besides, how was he supposed to add a magnet into the palm exactly? He didn't have any magnets and couldn't possibly "add" it to the hand anyway.
 
Hello all,
I am new to the forum.
I'm not really experienced in analyzing this genre of reading but I've gathered my own conclusions on the whole metal arm and Casca.
I think it represents the inner struggle that has been intensifying inside of Guts. Honestly I think what it will come down to is him choosing between her- the one thing he loves and his revenge (which in the pursuit of it has the armor consuming him).
Ummm, lol,,,,wasn't a very complex analysis but I think that is what it comes down to.

-OCK
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
Oddangelck said:
Hello all,
I am new to the forum.
I'm not really experienced in analyzing this genre of reading but I've gathered my own conclusions on the whole metal arm and Casca.
I think it represents the inner struggle that has been intensifying inside of Guts. Honestly I think what it will come down to is him choosing between her- the one thing he loves and his revenge (which in the pursuit of it has the armor consuming him).
Ummm, lol,,,,wasn't a very complex analysis but I think that is what it comes down to.

-OCK

Hey there, welcome to the board! I don't think that analysis is too shabby, actually. If she regains her sanity, Casca may not want Guts to go off traipsing after Griffith. I can see her not wanting Guts to risk his life by continuing to wear the Berserk's Armor and fighting Apostles (and eventually the Griffster himself), and at this point in time, the armor is the only thing we know of that will allow Guts the chance to contend with the legendary Apostles at Griffith's side (and we don't even know what powers Griffith himself has). The thought of Guts going up against those odds while slowly losing his humanity to the armor and the Beast of Darkness might be too much for her to handle. She may, as you say, force Guts to choose between his path of vengeance and living a quiet life on Elfhelm with her (that there's a quiet life to lead on Elfhelm is, of course, heavy speculation).
 

iamdani

Hobo
I think this episode is a reminder for Guts. He isn't all powerful, though he may be able to slay human, demons or apostles, the one thing he has only really gave a shit about, the woman he loves, he may not be able can't save her.

Try as he might, he was completely powerless to save Casca from the events of the Eclipse and that came from a time where he thought he could save her. He thought he save Griffith, and when he does he realises he has already lost what he ad and that the future will present him a differant path. Then it bit his ass again when his best friend betrayed him and stole Casca away from him.

Guts has rebuilt his life. He dropped his quest for revenge or has atleast put it aside, secondary to Casca. He has friends and companions. And now, Gut could literally be a few miles away from having it all, really. If Casca can get healed, atleast in some small way he will have beaten Griffith.

I think this episode opened his eyes to the real truth of his journey recently. He nearly has it all, this means, I think, that this is the time at which he has the greatest to loose. His new life is not safe and secure, it isn't going to be the happing ever after. He can't change what happened and despite him getting his head around his new life, there are things that are still beyond his control. He is still a prisnor to casuality and fate and he cannot risk getting comfortable with his current perceptions of being safe.

He over-estimated his own ability. He should have realised that he wouldn't be able survive in the water in his weakened state, he should have realised that Casca in her current form can't feel secure or trust Guts. He should he remembered that Casca is more able to relate to his companions and in this sort of sceanario, where there are no evil apostles to slay or monsters to kill, that he wasn't best suited to rescue her from a precarious ledge. Was he expecting to beat up the potential drop into the water, slay it like an monsterous foe?

Even if Casca is to be cured at their destination, this won't be his happy life he was denied first time around. Guts has awoken his inner demon and given it physical form through the manifestations of his armour. The beast threatens to kill Casca repeatly and yet he must rely on this beast to protect her from the evils in the world. But what about himself? His companion's ability to tame the beast is decreasing whilst his reliance on it is increasing. Guts must fear having Casca return to find the beast waiting for her. Fear her rejecting him and all that he has done.

Guts cannot let himself forget what he has lost and cannot replace, the risks are too high.

Maybe Guts was thinking like this as a coping mechanism to shield himself mentally from the trauma he has been through. Maybe it was an important mental safety net that he let himself get trapped in.

Will Guts change his actions based on his changed insight? Let's not forget, this moment has also served as a handy reminder of how important his companions are and more importantly that he needs them.

I also think it is important to look at the timing of this new insight. Guts has went through ordeal after ordeal recently, physically and mentally, one could argue that this has been one of his toughest periods of his life (after Gambino and the Eclipse), though admittingly this period has been more prolonged than the others. With the previous two events, they clouded his judgement and decided how Guts would think for a significant period afterwards (Gambino = loner period, Eclipse = revenge period) and with both events it took the actions of others to force Guts into a differant way of thinking.

This might have happened here again, on the possible verge of significant development in his life (Casca's return), one more the actions of others have forced a differant way of thinking onto Guts, except in this case Guts is embracing what he has, his companions and letting them figure into his new insight and possible future actions (with being a loner he shunted away everyone, whilst wanting revenge he even shunted away Casca herself). If this is the case, it means that as Guts life hits another milestone and he prepares for possible a new dynamic shift in his life, he actually has his head screwed on and isn't being self anymore.

=

I could be suffering from sleep deprivation here, haha, so I apologise is this sounds like bull.
 

puella

Berserk forever
Thinking about Guts' scars again, isn't it strange that while his whole body is scarred from burns, his hair remains intact? Maybe it's a good sign that his wounds aren't that serious... :badbone:
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
iamdani said:
He over-estimated his own ability. He should have realised that he wouldn't be able survive in the water in his weakened state, he should have realised that Casca in her current form can't feel secure or trust Guts. He should he remembered that Casca is more able to relate to his companions and in this sort of sceanario, where there are no evil apostles to slay or monsters to kill, that he wasn't best suited to rescue her from a precarious ledge. Was he expecting to beat up the potential drop into the water, slay it like an monsterous foe?

Actually, he was doing fine until he had his head knocked against the side of the Rescue-boat (At least I think that that's what happened). The main focus was on his not being able to catch her when she fell. That's made him face the fact that he's Sacrificed so much for power but he still can't quite be there for Casca in situations that don't involve Fighting.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Forest Wraith said:
Actually, he was doing fine until he had his head knocked against the side of the Rescue-boat (At least I think that that's what happened).

If he'd hit his head there'd be an overt reference to it, a specific panel or at least a sound effect, if not more (like the shot we get of his prosthetic and him saying it's sinking him). Plus, as is, I think it's supposed to be somewhat of an allegory for the entire situation; while Guts initially had the strength/will to swim with the weight of the arm and even the weight of a struggling Casca, once she was saved, he no longer had the strength/will to save himself.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
You know I just thought of something. Going back to the Farnese and Schierke situation. I am wondering if Maybe Schierke didn't hear what Guts said at the end but maybe telepathically, she heard what Farnese said in her mind thus catching her lying.

Also with the way Guts is feeling, i wonder if he will fall into the "woe-is me" type of situation and will become a hindrance if\when the shit hits the fan on the ship.

Maybe Guts would feel better if he could just find the best pair of "bitch tits" and just cry while being nestled in between them like from Fight Club! :guts:

Azan: We are men!
Guts: Yes, yes we are! :judo:
 
SaiyajinNoOuji-Trading Cards said:
You know I just thought of something. Going back to the Farnese and Schierke situation. I am wondering if Maybe Schierke didn't hear what Guts said at the end but maybe telepathically, she heard what Farnese said in her mind thus catching her lying.

Also with the way Guts is feeling, i wonder if he will fall into the "woe-is me" type of situation and will become a hindrance if\when the shit hits the fan on the ship.

Maybe Guts would feel better if he could just find the best pair of "bitch tits" and just cry while being nestled in between them like from Fight Club! :guts:

Azan: We are men!
Guts: Yes, yes we are! :judo:

LOL! That'd be awesome! Testicular cancer support groups on the ship. :serpico:
 

Forest Wraith

Evil is born when we lose power over ourselves.
Griffith No More! said:
If he'd hit his head there'd be an overt reference to it, a specific panel or at least a sound effect, if not more

Hmm . . . Like the ship being broken to pieces against his head?
 

CnC

Ad Oculos
Forest Wraith said:
Hmm . . . Like the ship being broken to pieces against his head?

no, like a panel where it shows his head being hit by the boat. The reason he's sinking isn't because he was hit by the boat, its because the arm was dragging him down and he didn't have the strength to swim against it. Hence the point of the entire episode.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Yeah, I was thinking more any suggestion of a collision actually taking place. =)

What's really interesting is Guts was actually holding on to the boat at the time (possibly to hit his head against it!!?), so even before it got down to sink or swim, he couldn't even hold on against the waves. I mean, have you ever thought of Guts as having failing arm strength? He's in worse condition than we thought.
 

SaiyajinNoOuji

I'm still better than you
Forest Wraith said:
Hmm . . . Like the ship being broken to pieces against his head?
Already beaten but yea... Im looking at the panel in question and his head doesn't hit the boat. The wave comes up and pulls him back down. When they recover him and he awakens, he doesn't even look to have the effects that one would have if their head were to hit the side of the boat.

He doesn't rub his head or make any notice of it. I think while he is looking better he is still in a weakened state thus holding on to Casca while they pull her back into the rescue about along with keep himself latched to the boat with his good hand sucked a good portion of energy away.

After that he couldn't keep his grip when the wave over took him.
 
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