If Guts uses his beherit

mpd_psycho said:

if the branded Guts can uses beherit, maybe he will actually use the beherit in the final confrontation with griffith to give him extra power to match Griffith&his army?....who do you think will be the sacrifice? (exclude Casca, coz she is already branded)
what do you think?

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Can a Sacrifice use a behelit? That would interesting. The Behelit hasnt' left him yet so Guts just might very well be the new owner. If he ever does activate it then most likely his sacrifices will be his new companians. He's already got his apostle form already which is the Beast of Darkness. Of course this might not happen since its only speculation. But then that is what's threatening Guts going down the Path of Darkness to become a monster like Griffith.

xbigvmanx said:

The Beherit hasnt' left him yet so Guts just might very well be the new owner.

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There's like no chance of it ever happening though. From a storytelling point of view it makes no sense at all, and it goes directly against the character's mentality.

xbigvmanx said:

If he ever does activate it then most likely his sacrifices will be his new companians.

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It'd be Casca, who can't be sacrificed a second time.

xbigvmanx said:

He's already got his apostle form already which is the Beast of Darkness. Of course this might not happen since its only speculation. But then that is what's threatening Guts going down the Path of Darkness to become a monster like Griffith.

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One could argue the threat of becoming a monster is already there for him in the form of the Beast of Darkness, which represents all that is bad in him. Becoming an apostle isn't necessary; look at what happened with the Berserk's armor.

Aazealh said:

There's like no chance of it ever happening though. From a storytelling point of view it makes no sense at all, and it goes directly against the character's mentality.

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How can it not make sense at all? He's got the Behelit, he wants to use it which can potientially lead him to the Darkside. How can it go against his mentality when he's being tempted to seek revenge vice saving Casca's condition. Sure it may not go that way in future stories but the threat of him succumbing to his dark nature is still there.

It'd be Casca, who can't be sacrificed a second time.

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I agree with you that Casca can't be sacrificed a second time but Gut is already attached to his new companions. So why can't they be not considered potiential sacrifices? They are just as valuable to him as Casca or valuable enough to be consider close to him.

xbigvmanx said:

How can it not make sense at all? He's got the Beherit, he wants to use it which can potientially lead him to the Darkside. How can it go against his mentality when he's being tempted to seek revenge vice saving Casca's condition. Sure it may not go that way in future stories but the threat of him succumbing to his dark nature is still there.

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Think. First off, he doesn't actually want to use the beherit, he was only taunted about it by Slan (the Beast of Darkness tells him to kill Casca in volume 23, but not to use the beherit). Second, what would using it bring him? Apostle powers (what you call the "Darkside" I guess)? The same apostles whose strength he can match simply using his armor? And once he's an apostle, then he can serve Griffith like all the other apostles, right? Oh and what about all of his character development, was it for nothing? Finally he'll do just what Griffith did, only on a far lesser scale, and in the end he'll have even less chances to take him on than before. Sounds like a plan alright.

And seeking revenge has nothing to do with using the beherit. It's just about chasing Griffith and trying to kill him. He hates the God Hand, he hates apostles, so why would he want to become one? That'd be completely against his principles, see how he reacts to Grunberd's speech in volume 26 or to what Ganishka tells him during their fight in Vritannis. The risk that he kills his friends at some point is still there, but it's not directly related to a possible use of the beherit. He certainly doesn't need that to kill people, and he's already come close to killing them without it.

xbigvmanx said:

They are just as valuable to him as Casca or valuable enough to be consider close to him.

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No, I don't think that is the case. If it had to be someone, anyone, then I am convinced that it'd be Casca.

Aazealh said:

Think. First off, he doesn't actually want to use the beherit....

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Well then try to explain to me that in volume 24, on Guts asking Flora how to use the Behelit, if I am not mistaken he wants to use the Behelit for revenge or didn't she state this when she asked Guts on why he wants to use it for? Also he's been warned by both Flora and Godo if he continues to walk this path it can destroy him and the things he cares about

Second, what would using it bring him? Apostle powers (what you call the "Darkside" I guess)?

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Most likely to fight them head on. Wasn't that the reason why he kept it in the first place when he fought the Count in volume 3? Was to be on the same playing field?

And seeking revenge has nothing to do with using the beherit. It's just about chasing Griffith and trying to kill him. He hates the God Hand, he hates apostles, so why would he want to become one? That'd be completely against his principles....If it had to be someone, anyone, then I am convinced that it'd be Casca.

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This is where I strongly disagree seeking revenge has a lot to do with using that Behelit. Its like what Flora said, Behelit gives the owner what he or most desires. Guts might not necessarily wants their power to become one of them but like I said earlier he wants to kill them on the same ground that they are on. Whose to say that this really is against Guts principles? The Beast of Darkness is as much a part of his personality. If the Beast took over its still Guts even though its not the Guts we know and love you really can't say its not Guts. As for Casca, I am still befuddle by what your saying because a sacrifice already branded can't be used as a sacrifice again you said this yourself when you refered to volume 3.

xbigvmanx said:

Well then try to explain to me that in volume 24, on Guts asking Flora how to use the Beherit, if I am not mistaken he wants to use the Beherit for revenge or didn't she state this when she asked Guts on why he wants to use it for? Also he's been warned by both Flora and Godo if he continues to walk this path it can destroy him and the things he cares about

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In a way he did want to use the Beherit for revenge, just not in the way you seem to be thinking. He didn't want any power enhancement that comes with using one, he didn't care about fighting the God Hand on their level, his goal was to summon the God Hand to him so he could kill them right there, with his own power. Flora explained that a Beherit couldn't be used like that, it wasn't a key that could be used by just anyone, and would only be activated if in the hands of someone who desired something enough to sacrifice those precious to them (which rules Guts straight out, especially since he has already given up a chance to chase Griffith in favor of caring for Casca). You are also using Flora and Godo's comments inappropriately, as it has nothing to do with the Beherit. If anyone walks a path solely bent on revenge, it takes a heavy toll, both to oneself and those close to you. This goes for anyone, and encompasses the real world as well.

xbigvmanx said:

Well then try to explain to me that in volume 24, on Guts asking Flora how to use the Beherit, if I am not mistaken he wants to use the Beherit for revenge or didn't she state this when she asked Guts on why he wants to use it for?

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As Scorpio already explained his plan was to summon the God Hand, then to attack them. However Flora told him it was basically impossible, which he accepted and then proceeded to say he didn't intend to keep the beherit anyway (Puck then intervened and snatched it away). He never planned to become an apostle.

xbigvmanx said:

Most likely to fight them head on. Wasn't that the reason why he kept it in the first place when he fought the Count in volume 3? Was to be on the same playing field?

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He kept it because it's a powerful object, and because he thought he might use it to be able to attain them. Which isn't the case, as Flora told him. The God Hand dwell very deep within the astral world, and back then a beherit was the only way to get to them that Guts was aware of. Now that Griffith has been incarnated, it isn't his concern nearly as much.

xbigvmanx said:

This is where I strongly disagree seeking revenge has a lot to do with using that Beherit. Its like what Flora said, Beherit gives the owner what he or most desires. Guts might not necessarily wants their power to become one of them but like I said earlier he wants to kill them on the same ground that they are on. Whose to say that this really is against Guts principles?

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You're taking a simple analogy way too far. In actuality, by using a beherit and then sacrificing someone to the God Hand you become an apostle. That's really the only thing you can do. Guts couldn't summon the God Hand and then ask for power but without becoming an apostle. I can guarantee you that this will never happen. And yeah, begging his sworn enemies for power in order to try and destroy them afterwards? Not only this sounds extremely naive, but I'd indeed say that it goes against Guts' personality.

xbigvmanx said:

The Beast of Darkness is as much a part of his personality. If the Beast took over its still Guts even though its not the Guts we know and love you really can't say its not Guts.

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The Beast of Darkness never manifested any desire to use a beherit to sacrifice someone in order to become an apostle.

xbigvmanx said:

As for Casca, I am still befuddle by what your saying because a sacrifice already branded can't be used as a sacrifice again you said this yourself when you refered to volume 3.

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Yes. Casca can't be sacrificed again. And she's the one Guts would have to sacrifice in order to become an apostle. Which is yet another reason why he'll never become one.

Just to pile on here...

If Guts used the beherit it would go against a central theme, starting with volume 1, of a human going up against impossible monsters. I mean, he uses his humanity as an extra middle finger when he cuts down these apostles, and they're all, 'what? you're human? but I'm an apostle!' Guts becoming an apostle to fight Griffith and the Godhand...we've seen it before. 'Oh noz, I've become the very thing i'm trying to destroy.' That's waaay too literal and cliche for this caliber of storytelling.

This is probably off topic but, I recall Flora saying that she herself could not remove the brand due to it being very powerful. Does this imply that there is potentially someway for the brand to be removed?

But at the same token if the brand is removed from either or potentially at some point, I feel that it would cheapen the plot and potentially the central theme of the series.

But still in general the use of the beherit that guts found is one of the major X factors in the plot.

I also think another valid question is (I don't know if this was brought up in a previous thread) can a branded being such as use the beherit to sacrifice an unbranded being such as Farnese?

It would not surprise me in the least if does get her sanity back in Elfhelm, it would push her to the brink of desperation hence causing the beherit to be activated. But I sincerely hope that this is not the case. And more so ever, I'm hoping that casca is not being used as a plot device.

There is noone for Casca to sacrifice. Guts is out of the question as he is already branded and Farnese is not dear enough to Casca. If Casca even remembers Farnese, if Casca gets healed. Also it would require Casca to ask help from the Godhand who in a way raped her and killed her comrades. Im sure she'll remember some of that. What would she be desperate about to that extreme to activate a beherit. To get revenge. Desperate to escape memories. To not get revenge and stay on the isle. I don't know but it seems like a huge stretch. I don't think Casca will be mad if she gets her sanity back. She might even have to cooperate to come back. (If they have to dive into her consciuousness to get her back.) maybe.

Edit: I think Aazealh already answered this up above in a way.

bardoftheberserk said:

This is probably off topic but, I recall Flora saying that she herself could not remove the brand due to it being very powerful. Does this imply that there is potentially someway for the brand to be removed?

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No? It just means she can't remove it. Maybe it could theorically be removed, maybe not. But Flora's speech doesn't really imply anything other than her inability to do it.

bardoftheberserk said:

But at the same token if the brand is removed from either or potentially at some point, I feel that it would cheapen the plot and potentially the central theme of the series.

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It's doubtful that Guts will be freed of the Brand before the very end of the series, if he ever is. In my opinion, the only character who could remove it prematurely would be the Hanafubuku Oh anyway, so we'll see what the deal is soon enough.

bardoftheberserk said:

I also think another valid question is (I don't know if this was brought up in a previous thread) can a branded being such as use the beherit to sacrifice an unbranded being such as Farnese?

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Yes, it has been brought up in the past. Many, many times.

bardoftheberserk said:

It would not surprise me in the least if does get her sanity back in Elfhelm, it would push her to the brink of desperation hence causing the beherit to be activated. But I sincerely hope that this is not the case. And more so ever, I'm hoping that casca is not being used as a plot device.

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Well it certainly would surprise me. We've already seen what being heavily traumatized did for her, so if she gets over it and comes back to herself at last, I have a hard time imagining her using a beherit.

Forgive me for reviving a forgotten thread, but there was a thought here I think was missed:

feralotter said:

If Guts used the beherit it would go against a central theme . . . of a human going up against impossible monsters. I mean, he uses his humanity as an extra middle finger when he cuts down these apostles . . . Guts becoming an apostle to fight Griffith and the Godhand...we've seen it before. 'Oh noz, I've become the very thing i'm trying to destroy.'

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Although I think Guts is unlikely to use the Beherit, I think this is a legitimate danger posed by the Beast of Darkness. Coupled with the Berserker's Armor, it has made even Guts' companions think of him as a monster.

There's definitely danger with the Beast of Darkness and armor but it's future role I can't even begin to try and imagine. I get the feeling that a boat load of change is coming.

Something I failed to mention in my earlier post:

It's not necessarily Guts' beherit. When it is "needed," it will be in the hands of its true owner. The fact that Guts is still carrying it most likely means that someone he will eventually come into contact with is the true owner.

I'll put my money on Magnifico... until a more likely candidate shows up.

einherjar said:

Although I think Guts is unlikely to use the Beherit, I think this is a legitimate danger posed by the Beast of Darkness. Coupled with the Berserker's Armor, it has made even Guts' companions think of him as a monster.

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Not just his companions but himself as well. In fact I bet it's harder for him than for them to deal with it. They can dismiss it as the doing of the armor's insidious Od, but he has to face his own demons.

einherjar said:

Something I failed to mention in my earlier post:

It's not necessarily Guts' beherit. When it is "needed," it will be in the hands of its true owner. The fact that Guts is still carrying it most likely means that someone he will eventually come into contact with is the true owner.

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To be even more exact, beherits don't have "true owners" (unless you count the Idea of Evil, in which case they're all its property). They just come into the hands of the people that need them when the time is right. Some might keep theirs for a while, but in the end, beherits aren't simple objects and they don't belong to anyone in particular. The one Guts is carrying right now was used twice by the Count, and who knows what its history was before the fateful night where he discovered his wife's treachery?

einherjar said:

I'll put my money on Magnifico... until a more likely candidate shows up.

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The problem I see with this sort of speculation is: what would it bring to the story?

I think that, even if Guts, in a moment of extreme pain (and I would try to imagine a more painful moment than the Eclipse, maybe the loss of his party with Casca) would call the angels through beherit, I don't think it's a big possibility, for several reason:

If the eventual extreme pain is bound to the Casca's death or party, then who should be the the victim to offer? (maybe his son but at this rate we don't know almost anything about its true relationship with Griffith)

If Guts plans to offer Casca as we know she is branded already.

But even if Guts would offer the whole party, what would be the point?

I don't think that there will be a single being bound to evil that could really touch Griffith.
So I think that if Guts will surrender to evil, he will become like Ganishka. No big deal for Griffith.

However as Aaz said, the Beast of Darkness didn't manifest any desire to make Guts use his beherit. The evil spirits told to Guts that he will eventually become a monster that resemble a man, or a real monster like Griffith, but this is regardless the will of the Beast, because it is always Guts.

Moreover we have to consider that SK, weirdly, didn't ask to Guts to give him the beherit, since as we know he seeks for them.

Maybe SK knows already what will be the fate of Guts' beherit.