Author Topic: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?  (Read 2518 times)

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Offline puella

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Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« on: August 03, 2002, 09:10:06 PM »
To begin with, I'd make one thing clear that I don't defend Griffith and I also think he should get paid for his betrayal.
What I want to talk about is that we should deliberate "the way of being paid for the betrayal",in other words, the way Guts takes revenge on Griffith and "relationship between Griffith and Hawk members" MUCH FURTHER AND NOT SHORTSIGHTEDLY.
The former part has been dealt with too enough so I'd talk about the latter.

Hawk members always wanted to realize their dreams via Griffith. Griffith was the only one who could make it happen.
They would worship and respect Griffith forever as long as he stands in the state much higher than them at everything.
They could have some kind of ambitions which they even hadn't thought about before met Griffith.
Then what would you think they did to ruined Griffith?
Do you remember when Wild showed his almost dead body to all the Hawk members? They were totally disappointed and judging from their reaction, many of them would leave Griffith if there was no eclipse just like some Hawk members had already left him when he was in the dungeon. It means they also might betray Griffith when they could get nothing from him any more.
If they had left Griffith at his worst in his life, it could be the most cruel betrayal.
Therefore I'd say Griffith and hawk members were tools to the each other. They used each other.
So when either of them thinks I don't need the tools anymore, one can leave the other, which is what we call "betrayal"
But the problems are how far their betrayal can go and who betrays first.
Both depend on the law of causality, I think.

** sorry for bad English and in case this kind of topic already existed before.

Drachenfels

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2002, 09:34:56 PM »
Griffith let them have their own small ambitions, as long as they don't became too big and would question his absolute authority over them - like in Guts' case.
Yes, he gave them something they might not have had in their usual life - a future perspective, some goal they could live for. But I don't think they were "using" him. They depend on him, not the other way round.

On the other hand, I think Griffith felt betrayed because his soldiers didn't save him earlier. Although it's not said in the Manga, I think he wanted to blame someone for the hell he was going trough one year, and that would be Guts and the Hawks.

In some way, he was morally right to sacrifise them: nobody of them had gone trough all the torment he had endured. If they hadn't betrayed him(recued him before he was crippled), he wouldn't have sacrifised them.
Or maybe he had. Hope you get my point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline crazyCelt

Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2002, 04:50:50 PM »
Quote

It means they also might betray Griffith when they could get nothing from him any more.
If they had left Griffith at his worst in his life, it could be the most cruel betrayal.
Therefore I'd say Griffith and hawk members were tools to the each other. They used each other.
So when either of them thinks I don't need the tools anymore, one can leave the other, which is what we call "betrayal"

I'm not sure "betrayal" is the right word for this relationship the more I think about it. The Hawks were mercenaries and Griffith was their employer. I think this mundanely explains the reason for those who left after his imprisonment. They were being hunted like animals in the forest and were no longer a profitable group to be with, not to mention they fell out of favor with royalty. The ones who stayed with him to the end saw him as much more than a boss but they never really knew the man. Griffith's existence brings about extraordinary circumstances but the loyal Hawks didn't recognize events could sway in the exact opposite direction i.e. the Eclipse. For that matter, I don't think Griffith is in control of what he did/does, including the Eclipse. So in that sense I would say the Hawks and Griffith are tools, but not of each other; they are tools of causality and Griffith got the more interesting (not necessarily better) deal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline All_4_Yume

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2002, 09:27:05 AM »
 I don't think the Hawks betrayed Griffith as most probably thought of him just as an employer or a boss.  Not everybody got close enough to him to feel his influence so they probably wouldn't consider him a friend.  These are the folks who probably jumped ship soon as times got hard.  However those who stayed were "Hawk to the bone" as Judeau said and probably directly felt the charismatic presence of Griffith.  However I don't think Griffith blames them, only Guts.  How many times did Griffith go out of his way to save Guts's life?  When he needed Guts the most he was gone and Griffith had a long, painful time to let that thought sink in.  The speech Griffith told Guts at the well was really his feelings for the Hawks ("you belong to me, and I will choose the place you will die for me") and in reality it didn't apply to Guts.  The only person Griffith really gave a shit about left him hangin' and that fucked him up.  And thus when it comes time to choose he picks the one thing that's always been true to him and the rest is history.  

 That's another theme that Berserk touches on, the theme of fighting for somebody else's cause.  Soldiers fight for other people's beliefs and reasons.  If you're lucky you find a cause that you believe is worth fighting for but there is good chance you just got caught up in the tide of war.  However, any decent soldier knows he may give his life for a greater good or some greater cause.                    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
"I can't live simply because I was born."
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Offline Kuroi-san

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2002, 11:06:24 AM »
:o

Too deep... too complicated... cannot reply...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »
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Offline *Gyom*

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2002, 11:13:21 AM »
that's what you've just done ...

anyway the problem with these posts is they are not clear and spaced : just a big block of writing ( i'm talking specially to Nadiaska, All4Yume, Crazy Celt... ) anyway, that doesn't imply what you're writing into your posts...
it is just that if you write clearer, we will appreciate more !^^
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline puella

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2002, 06:08:54 PM »
Once our Griffith(Gurifisu I call sometimes ^^) and me were discussing if we could call "Guts leaving Griffith and Casca" a betrayal. it was so confusing matter(you know ARGHHHHHHH~)
That time, Griffith said "yes" but me "no".
The reason why I thought so is that there was no clue Guts used Griffith but the case of the Hawk members is sorta different.
I'd say "think about it comparing with relationship between Guts and Griffith."
According to your opinion that it was not betrayal, it was not a betrayal that Griffith sacrificed the Hawks, either.
For example, if this logic---Hawk members are some kind of employees so they can leave their employer whenever they want--- could be accepted,  this one---Griffith can use and dump his employees whenever he wants as their employer----also should be taken, shouldn't it?
Besides, "use" and "dump" can mean "death" considering the fact they were mercenaries who could die for their money or something payable.
You guys would point out the fact that Griffith made all of them slaughtered but it doesn't make any difference for basic conception of their betrayals.
"use" and "betrayal" are surely not right words for their whole relationship but in a way, the relationship between the two, Griffith and hawk members who had already left or would leave him at the time of the eclipse, had some property of using and betraying each other in my opinion.
All opinions are welcome but no just a provoking one without any ground ;)

Offline Kuroi-san

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Re: Griffith and Hawk members used each other?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2002, 02:33:07 AM »
Well, I can see where you're coming from, Puella. It is very obvious the the Hawks were willing to lay down their lives for Griffith, even in a seemingly hopeless situation (such as the siege of Doldrey). I think the Hawks were fine doing that, just as long as Griffith was there to keep moral high.

But the fact of the Eclipse was (somehow) different. It was like... it was like if Griffith had sent the Hawks to lay siege to Doldrey without him there and with no plan of attack. Then they'd probably be slaughtered.

"Oh, OK, see that big castle over there? Yeah, that one. You go and capture it and I'll sit here for a while."

Another example is if a corrupt employer fires all his employees and embellishes the money from the company. You see what I mean? The Hawks were willing to lay down their lives for him, but there was an unwritten contract between the two.

"We'll fight, but you have to fight as well."

You understand? I know its a bit complicated but... I hope you guys understand. I've been pondering this non-stop for a few days now.
You die first, get it? Your friends might get me in a rush but not before I turn your head into a canoe. What's it gonna be?