Author Topic: Belief  (Read 1729 times)

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Offline Torwyn

Belief
« on: July 01, 2002, 08:17:58 PM »
The info Miura's given us lately has given me a few ideas.  I'm still thinking them through, so i thought i'd post them here and hopefully get some feedback.

First, we know that the mind plays an important role in the world.  Idea came into existence solely through people's belief that something must be responsible for their suffering.  Elves and fairies are able to interact with the mortal world because they're believed in.

So here's my first theory: Apostles create themselves.  The God Hand give them the opportunity to become Apostles, but what truly transforms them is their betrayal of what they value most in exchange for power.  They become monsters in heart and mind, and their body changes to reflect that.
Griffith's ascendance seemed to involve an active effort from the God Hand, but that is understandable.  It makes sense that the rituals wouldn't be exactly the same, because Apostles are very different from God Hand( the two exist in different planes of reality, God Hand have power over fate, etc. ).

Based on that first theory, my second: Guts was very close to being changed himself, and is still in some danger now.  If he had continued following the path he took after the Eclipse, he would've become something other than human.  That is what the Beast represents: the potential monster inside him, what he would be if he gave in completely.

Now, the third and last theory: what almost happened to Guts is what happened to Zodd.  We've had hints that he's different from the regular Apostles( wasn't with the God Hand at the Eclipse, seemed uneasy about serving Griffith after the rebirth, helped Guts against Boscogne, and killed Wyld ).  I think Zodd was like Guts once, but threw away everything in search of the Ultimate Strong One, the way Guts abandoned everything to hunt for Griffith after the Eclipse.  Zodd gave in to his own Beast, and became something very much like an Apostle.
That would explain Zodd's erratic behavior very well.  He's not a direct servant of the God Hand, so he acts on his own most of the times.  But he knows that he's powerless against them and their ability to control causality, so he serves them when they demand it.  He also sees himself in Guts, which is why he sometimes goes out of his way to help him.


Well, that's it.  Again, i haven't had much time to really develop these theories.  Opinions, ideas, flames?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Offline Chris

Re: Belief
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2002, 09:31:29 PM »
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Idea came into existence solely through people's belief that something must be responsible for their suffering.

hmm. I always thought that the Idea came into existence because people wished something "to direct" (to weave) their destiny, which is actually its role. Suffering may be only a consequence of Idea's decisions over people's lives, not its real goal. Nevertheless I may be wrong here...

EDIT: And so I was   -_-;;;;
I just re-checked Olivier's translation of chapter 83
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I: Humans
I: desired reasons
I: Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness
I: Reasons for life
I: Reasons for death
I: Why were their lives filled with suffering? Why were their deaths absurd?
I: They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge

So the Idea was actually born from people's need for reasons, concerning their lives and deaths.



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Now, the third and last theory: what almost happened to Guts is what happened to Zodd.  We've had hints that he's different from the regular Apostles( wasn't with the God Hand at the Eclipse, seemed uneasy about serving Griffith after the rebirth, helped Guts against Boscogne, and killed Wyld ).  I think Zodd was like Guts once, but threw away everything in search of the Ultimate Strong One, the way Guts abandoned everything to hunt for Griffith after the Eclipse.  Zodd gave in to his own Beast, and became something very much like an Apostle.

Never thought about that, but I like that theory.
It reminds me somehow of the dream Guts had in the sewer after Yurius' assassination (see vol. 6), where Zoddo's face actually revealed Guts' one.
Anyway, just plain speculations :)

Offline Walter

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Re: Belief
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2002, 10:54:12 PM »
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First, we know that the mind plays an important role in the world.  Idea came into existence solely through people's belief that something must be responsible for their suffering.

I think its more that the mind, in combination with a very influential world (originally, 1000 years ago or more) brought about the Idea. Based on the 'leaked theory', the world was not as divided as it is now, that would give thoughts and the power of the mind more influence. But I'm just adding to your theory, so I agree.
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Griffith's ascendance seemed to involve an active effort from the God Hand, but that is understandable.  It makes sense that the rituals wouldn't be exactly the same, because Apostles are very different from God Hand( the two exist in different planes of reality, God Hand have power over fate, etc. ).

Try not to think of God Hand as active role players in causality. There's been nothing to allude that their actions are independant of the laws of causality. They obey Idea, and carry out essentially (speculatively) the essense of the will of the people. Then again, it could also be argued that we don't know shit about God Hand, not a damned thing worth mentioning. But who wants to walk around with a blindfold and a flashlight?  8)
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Based on that first theory, my second: Guts was very close to being changed himself, and is still in some danger now.  If he had continued following the path he took after the Eclipse, he would've become something other than human.  That is what the Beast represents: the potential monster inside him, what he would be if he gave in completely.

Thats a theory? I mean, I don't mean to knock you but its more of a restatement of facts, isn't it? When we first saw the beast in volume 16, ghosts were saying he would turn into something like his 'friend' (griffith), i fhe walked his current path. And after Godo spelled out Guts inner struggle to us, and then with the large one full page shot of the Beast in volume 17... it seemed pretty obvious.
Quote

Now, the third and last theory: what almost happened to Guts is what happened to Zodd.  We've had hints that he's different from the regular Apostles( wasn't with the God Hand at the Eclipse, seemed uneasy about serving Griffith after the rebirth, helped Guts against Boscogne, and killed Wyld ).  I think Zodd was like Guts once, but threw away everything in search of the Ultimate Strong One, the way Guts abandoned everything to hunt for Griffith after the Eclipse.  Zodd gave in to his own Beast, and became something very much like an Apostle.

Don't you think Zodd seems a little more in control, and sane than what we've seen of the Beast? Plus, what would the human form of the Beast be? Guts with a large unibrow (aka Zodd)?
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That would explain Zodd's erratic behavior very well.  He's not a direct servant of the God Hand, so he acts on his own most of the times.

Well, sorry but he is officially an apostle. Volume 12, page 220, bottom, far-left (thanks to Cronus for the following translation):

Wild: Nozomu mama o tarau... sore ga oretachi shito no yuuitsu no kairitsu no hazu da"

Rough Trans: " 'Do as you will', that is the only law that we, apostles have to follow."
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline shiz

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Re: Belief
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2002, 09:21:29 AM »
Maybe he became a apostle by given in to his inne beast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »

Drachenfels

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Re: Belief
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2002, 08:55:32 AM »
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Maybe he became a apostle by given in to his inne beast.


Maybe.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 11:00:00 PM by 1031209200 »