Causality's impact on Guts?

Hey everybody,

I started watching the Berserk anime last weekend (So bare with me if I don't know all of the names), and ended up finishing through all of the manga yesterday... The whole while, I've been thinking.

Do you think that Fate has no direct control over what happens to Guts? Here are some thoughts that might support this theory:

- During his first rise to power, no one defeated Griffith or could come even close to the impact that he had on peoples' actions and thought - except for Guts. Guts not only fought against him very well initially, but eventually people began to like him debatable just as much as Griffith.

- When the sacrifice occurred, he actually survived. He has to have been the only person, if not one of the only people, to do such a thing.

- Without his presence, all of his current party would be dead. Casca would have died in the Sacrifice; the boy would have been killed by those enemy troops; Farnese, her servant/half-brother/lover, and the mace-wielding lieutenant would have died during the second sacrifice; the young witch probably would have died in either the attack on her home or later on and she toted her witch-ability to heretic-hungry religious fanatics; everyone on the boat would have been killed in the raid on the Holy City.

- Also without his presence, the only people to oppose Griffith's ascension to the Midland throne would have died against those demon-tigers at the ball.

To me, it feels like he's the only one who can oppose fate's plan; the ones who should have been taken by fate are drawn to him much like everyone else is drawn to Griffith.

What do you guys think?

(On another note, is there a word filter on this site? Like half of the names I wrote down appear to have changed.)

Hi there. Welcome.

There are a few errors in your assessment

Jehu said:

- During his first rise to power, no one defeated Griffith or could come even close to the impact that he had on peoples' actions and thought - except for Guts. Guts not only fought against him very well initially, but eventually people began to like him debatable just as much as Griffith.

Click to expand...

Guts became famous at the time as the 100-man slayer. But his name has been lost to time (and the myth of how many people he killed has been blown out of proportion). Griffith as the leader of the hawks has had more of an impact on the mindset of the populace than Guts ever did.

Jehu said:

- When the sacrifice occurred, he actually survived. He has to have been the only person, if not one of the only people, to do such a thing.

Click to expand...

We've only really seen one eclipse. Whether or not other people have survived is not known. But if causality is cyclical like Skull Knight thought or spiral as Flora theorized, its not impossible to believe there have been others to have survived an eclipse.

Jehu said:

- Without his presence, all of his current party would be dead. Casca would have died in the Sacrifice; the boy would have been killed by those enemy troops; Farnese, her servant/half-brother/lover, and the mace-wielding lieutenant would have died during the second sacrifice; the young witch probably would have died in either the attack on her home or later on and she toted her witch-ability to heretic-hungry religious fanatics; everyone on the boat would have been killed in the raid on the Holy City.

- Also without his presence, the only people to oppose Griffith's ascension to the Midland throne would have died against those demon-tigers at the ball.

To me, it feels like he's the only one who can oppose fate's plan; the ones who should have been taken by fate are drawn to him much like everyone else is drawn to Griffith.

What do you guys think?

Click to expand...

Coulda woulda shoulda... What would have happened had Guts not been there is that we wouldn't really have a story. Other than that it is a bit of a stretch to speculate as to Guts' place in causality.

I see Aaz circling overhead so if theres anything I've missed he'll probably pick at the corpse a little.

Jehu said:

(On another note, is there a word filter on this site? Like half of the names I wrote down appear to have changed.)

Click to expand...

Incorrect spellings of names are automatically corrected to the official spellings.

Hi Jehu, welcome to SK.net!

Jehu said:

Do you think that Fate has no direct control over what happens to Guts?

Click to expand...

I think it does. Actually, I even know it's the case. Also, the notion of Fate with a big F isn't really appropriate here. In Berserk we talk about causality. There's a difference although it may not seem so to you at first. I recommend reading the score of older threads discussing this we have on this board, they should enlighten you and answer most of your questions on the subject. This idea you have is a really old misconception, so it's been addressed many times before. Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt to you, but I'm sure you understand that after some years we get to cut straight to the facts. Still, allow me to quickly show you some of the holes in your theory.

Jehu said:

During his first rise to power, no one defeated Griffith or could come even close to the impact that he had on peoples' actions and thought - except for Guts.

Click to expand...

Zodd did beat Griffith, and only let him live because he had his beherit. Griffith was also captured and tortured for a year, so these things don't really mean anything at all. Besides, there is a fatal flaw in what you're saying here: without Guts, Griffith could never have become Femto. Guts was a vital part of the events that led to this event, and thus he was indeed influenced by Causality.

Jehu said:

- When the sacrifice occurred, he actually survived. He has to have been the only person, if not one of the only people, to do such a thing.

Click to expand...

That's less than certain, really. For all we know, the Skull Knight could have done the same long before. And Guts only survived because SK came and saved him against all odds. Otherwise he'd be dead.

Jehu said:

Without his presence, all of his current party would be dead. Casca would have died in the Sacrifice; the boy would have been killed by those enemy troops; Farnese, her servant/half-brother/lover, and the mace-wielding lieutenant would have died during the second sacrifice; the young witch probably would have died in either the attack on her home or later on and she toted her witch-ability to heretic-hungry religious fanatics; everyone on the boat would have been killed in the raid on the Holy City.

Click to expand...

That isn't entirely true. Casca wasn't saved by Guts during the Occultation, it was the Skull Knight who did it. Similarly, Guts didn't save Azan during the incarnation ceremony at the tower of Albion. It is also interesting to note that without Puck, Guts himself would have died long ago, and that his comrades saved his life too (even recently when Roderick rescued him in the sea). In any case, this doesn't actually prove your point.

Jehu said:

Also without his presence, the only people to oppose Griffith's ascension to the Midland throne would have died against those demon-tigers at the ball.

Click to expand...

Well, these people aren't really opposing Griffith at the moment. They showed some discontent but that's pretty much it. Besides lacking the power to do anything about it, they don't even have a word to say since Charlotte has decided.

Jehu said:

To me, it feels like he's the only one who can oppose fate's plan; the ones who should have been taken by fate are drawn to him much like everyone else is drawn to Griffith.

Click to expand...

Like I said earlier, there's no mystical force called Fate in Berserk that tries to push an agenda. There is a God though, that remains very mysterious to this day and that is called the Idea of Evil. Look for information on it on the forum. This God manipulates causality to achieve its sinister ends. It's the entity that created the God Hand. Guts isn't immune to causality's ways and in fact it's doubtful anyone really is, but like SK he can sometimes change things a little. That's because he lives in the Interstice, as a result of being branded. Keep in mind I'm really simplifying things here. By re-reading the manga with care (and if possible, good translations), small details that highlight all of what I'm telling you should become evident. As you have read the series rather quickly and probably with inaccurate translations it isn't surprising that they've escaped you so far. Perusing the encyclopedia's glossary might also help with some terms. Anyway, to finish let me point out a funny fact: Guts is carrying a beherit with him, right? And beherits are agents of the God Hand and the Idea of Evil? So by carrying it around, isn't Guts somehow serving their interests? Who knows...

Jehu said:

(On another note, is there a word filter on this site? Like half of the names I wrote down appear to have changed.)

Click to expand...

There is actually a word filter on this website that changes incorrect name spellings to correct ones. I also took the liberty to change the title of your thread so it'd be correct, and changed a few words in your post in a similar fashion. I take it you have been reading scanlations, and you should know that they are far from being reliable as far as the translation is concerned, even for simple character names. For example, there is no Vatican in Berserk, it is called the Holy See. Also, in case you haven't read the Forum Rules yet, be aware that we don't like scanlations as a concept in general around here, we encourage people to purchase the original Japanese volumes and to read them with text translations.

I hope my response can help you understand things a little better, and I encourage you to read past discussions anyway since I'm sure they'd prove very informative.

CnC said:

if causality is cyclical like Skull Knight thought or spiral as Flora theorized

Click to expand...

I don't think Flora was theorizing about this...

Thanks guys. =D

I've never heard it called "Causality"... In all of the manga I've read and anime I've watched, it seems like it's mostly been referred to as fate. Thanks for pointing out where I was wrong on him being defeated, too - for some reason those two events never really clicked as I was thinking about it.

I do however, disagree with you on Griffith needing Guts to become Femto. I think that it would have occured regardless... obviously there's no proving it, but I think that Causality would have pulled through without Guts quite easily.

While thinking about the rescue during the sacrifice, another thought came to my mind that's probably also been discussed here, but just in case - do you think all of the people to be sacrificed must be sacrificed before Femto's power "becomes complete" or something to that effect? I mean, if the owner of the Beherit must sacrifice what he loves to gain the promised power, then can he really obtain this power when they have yet to be sacrificed?

Jehu said:

While thinking about the rescue during the sacrifice, another thought came to my mind that's probably also been discussed here, but just in case - do you think all of the people to be sacrificed must be sacrificed before Femto's power "becomes complete" or something to that effect? I mean, if the owner of the Beherit must sacrifice what he loves to gain the promised power, then can he really obtain this power when they have yet to be sacrificed?

Click to expand...

Well nothing has pointed to Femto having any diminished capabilities due to Casca and Guts surviving. And since Griffith still became Femto I don't think theres some beaker of evil somewhere that needs to be filled that would make the change possible.

Griffith did choose to sacrifice them all. Whether or not they survived the slaughter doesn't change that betrayal.

Jehu said:

I've never heard it called "Causality"... In all of the manga I've read and anime I've watched, it seems like it's mostly been referred to as fate.

Click to expand...

Hehe that's not surprising, but unfortunately those aren't references, they're quite often completely unreliable. Not to mention that the anime isn't canon at all in general (and if you skipped the parts of the manga that correspond to what is shown in the animated series I would advise you to reconsider it).

Jehu said:

I do however, disagree with you on Griffith needing Guts to become Femto. I think that it would have occured regardless... obviously there's no proving it, but I think that Causality would have pulled through without Guts quite easily.

Click to expand...

Hahaha, think about it for a while man, could it really have happened? It's when he saw Guts reaching to him that Griffith said he was sacrificing the Hawks. It's when Guts touched his shoulder that the Occultation ceremony started. And it's Guts that Griffith was obsessed with during the year of captivity and torture that led him on the brink of madness. Guts had a really strong impact on him. Oh and it's Guts that saved him from jail as well as Guts that led him to make the mistake that sent him to jail (which was a determinant event in leading to the sacrifice). And who made it possible for Griffith to reach such a high position in the first place? That's right, Guts, more than anybody else. The list goes on.

Jehu said:

do you think all of the people to be sacrificed must be sacrificed before Femto's power "becomes complete" or something to that effect?

Click to expand...

You're making a common mistake here too: the sacrifice isn't the death of the people, it's the branding. As long as they're branded, they've been sacrificed. So while the sacrifice is indeed likely to be an obligation, Guts and Casca have been sacrificed just like Pippin or Gaston and there's no problem with it. Though, since we're on the topic, I don't think one person being sacrificed or not matters much in the case of mass sacrifices like Griffith's, he doesn't really get his power from the sacrificed people themselves.

Welcome to the forums, Jehu.

Aazealh said:

Though, since we're on the topic, I don't think one person being sacrificed or not matters much in the case of mass sacrifices like Griffith's, he doesn't really get his power from the sacrificed people themselves.

Click to expand...

I dunno. I know where you're going with this Aaz, that Femto's form was truly created in the Abyss thanks to the Idea of Evil (or maybe shedding the last tear of his humanity acts as a form of gateway to the Idea to begin with...). However, a line from Slan during the Eclipse seems to imply that the continual struggle Guts displayed during the chaos of the Eclipse was a kind of fuel for Griffiths new form.

[quote author=Slan: Translation by Ranemaka13 (~2002)]
Slann:
That child (Guts) tries so hard...
However, it's cynical that the harder that child tries
the more his anguish goes on and on,
becoming the bread for that new existence of darkness.
[/quote]
It's such an old translation, and by an amateur translator, but I think the original text's meaning isn't lost here.

Of course, to take this line a step further, I don't think that transfer of energy applies to events outside the Eclipse (as if he has an umbilical cord attached to Femto now, feeding him as he struggles...). That's not to say I hadn't seriously considered this before though .....

Walter said:

Of course, to take this line a step further, I don't think that transfer of energy applies to events outside the Eclipse (as if he has an umbilical cord attached to Femto now, feeding him as he struggles...). That's not to say I hadn't seriously considered this before though .....

Click to expand...

Its possible. But would you say Femto is diminished by Guts and Casca's existence? Or would continued feeding off suffering make him stronger?

This is strange to speculate as "strength" and "power" don't seem to play into being a God Hand.

CnC said:

Its possible.

Click to expand...

I don't think so, I was just highlighting that possibility to strike it down before it was brought up.

This is strange to speculate as "strength" and "power" don't seem to play into being a God Hand.

Click to expand...

Yeah it wouldn't seem so at all. The nature of their being seems to be "power" enough. Of course, as always with these conversations, we know very little about such an extremely influential group.

Walter said:

I dunno. I know where you're going with this Aaz, that Femto's form was truly created in the Abyss thanks to the Idea of Evil (or maybe shedding the last tear of his humanity acts as a form of gateway to the Idea to begin with...). However, a line from Slan during the Eclipse seems to imply that the continual struggle Guts displayed during the chaos of the Eclipse was a kind of fuel for Griffiths new form.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I had considered that line when I posted, but I chose to ignore it over the other, more explicit material (and more likely possibility IMHO). Besides, that line doesn't necessarily apply only to the sacrificed people. If we go by what's shown in episode 83, Femto is created using the Vortex of Souls, so Slan could have been referring to the fact that all "negative" feelings in general would feed Femto, including Guts'.

Walter said:

Of course, to take this line a step further, I don't think that transfer of energy applies to events outside the Eclipse (as if he has an umbilical cord attached to Femto now, feeding him as he struggles...).

Click to expand...

Yeah, I really don't think that's how it works either. Aside from all the rest, it would just seem meaningless and unnecessary to me.

Do you guy's suppose that the energy of sacrifices is measured in calories? That would sure make sense.

Maybe because Guts and Casca weren't consumed, Femto and the Apostles are quite malnourished. It would certainly explain why Griffith was so scrawny at the rebirth ceremony, dude was skin and bones!

Walter said:

I don't think so, I was just highlighting that possibility to strike it down before it was brought up.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. I was just referring to a physical tie between Griffith and Guts/Casca (insert moonlight child speculation here) rather than some source of power/strength (which can't be measured, anyway).

Femto would have been able to bench 350, but without Guts and Casca he'll have to settle for 295.

Griffith No More! said:

Do you guy's suppose that the energy of sacrifices is measured in calories? That would sure make sense.

Maybe because Guts and Casca weren't consumed, Femto and the Apostles are quite malnourished. It would certainly explain why Griffith was so scrawny at the rebirth ceremony, dude was skin and bones!

Click to expand...

Mmmmm, so you're saying that our dear, voluptuous Slan basically omitted the main dish and went straight for dessert, during her creation? What a sweet scenario!

Um yeah, really don't see the umbilical chord thing. Pretty simply the band of the hawk along with Gut + Casca were already consumed/sacrificed as soon as they got the brand. The fact Griffith took Femto's form before they were actually eaten by the apostles is just coincidence and obviously not needed since he was able to become Femto anyhow. All it takes is one good sacrifice(Guts) to become an apostle anyhow and becoming a godhand does not indicate the rules change. Its still that 1 for 1 formula..think Full Metal Alchemist equivalent exchange...lol

Shadow67733 said:

Um yeah, really don't see the calorie thing or umbilical chord. Pretty simply the band of the hawk along with Gut + Casca were already consumed/sacrificed as soon as they got the brand. The fact Griffith took Femto's form before they were actually eaten by the apostles is just coincidence and obviously not needed since he was able to become Femto anyhow. All it takes is one good sacrifice(Guts) to become an apostle anyhow and becoming a godhand does not indicate the rules change. Its still that 1 for 1 formula..think Full Metal Alchemist equivalent exchange...lol

Click to expand...

I must disagree, you can't discount the importance of daily calories in one's diet, particularly creatures as large as Apostles; they must need and consume a lot of energy to keep going (we've heard Apostles lament their lack of nutrition several times), and don't get me started on the nutrition needed in the growing of an unborn child, let alone a fully grown demon king!

While we can't truly know the nature of the energy provided by sacrifices, in Griffith's case, since he's undergoing some sort of supernatural demon transformation, he's going to need a lot of calories, and I imagine those calories are turned into some other form of supernatural fuel that powers his transformation. Let's call this unit of energy femtowatts (or kilophempts if you're using the metric system). The question is how many femtowatts are needed to complete a healthy transformation, and did Griffith get them? Even if he got his recommended daily amount, you're going to want to get a lot of extra protein when building muscles, bone structure, and essentially a whole new demonoid body. Think of the sacrifices as that energy source, and the Apostles, whose bodies are connected to the astral world and the vortex of souls, as the blades of a blender grinding the sacrifices into a vortex shake, creating a healthy supernaturally evil flavored Metrix to power Griffith's workout.

Now, we can't say Griffith got all he needed, because we don't know what the results would have been had Guts and Casca been added to the giant protein shake of evil. Would he be taller, have additional mass and muscle definition? Who knows, and furthermore, there's evidence now that Griffith may not have all the energy he needs, requiring sweet cakes for additional energy.


Griffith's malnutrition and lack of a balanced diet could even result in long term health issues: diabetes, osteoporosis, and one he's already expressed concern about, heart disease, even complaining of serious symptoms such as a his blood and heart freezing; frankly, I'm worried about him. I hope he lives until the end of the series so he and Guts can make up and be friends again, and hopefully both live healthily ever after together.

Jesus, that's what I get for quoting a line from the manga.

Griffith No More! said:

I must disagree, you can't discount the importance of daily calories in one's diet, particularly creatures as large as Apostles; they must need and consume a lot of energy to keep going (we've heard Apostles lament their lack of nutrition several times), and don't get me started on the nutrition needed in the growing of an unborn child, let alone a fully grown demon king!

Click to expand...

Griffith No More! said:

Sweet fuel for evil, or something belying a more sinister problem (diabetes)?

Click to expand...

Walter said:

Jesus, that's what I get for quoting a line from the manga.

Click to expand...

Ain't speculation fun?

My vote for POST OF THE YEAR! C'mon he said "femtowatts".

Edit: I changed my mind, THREAD OF THE YEAR!
And I must say the resemblance between Snail Count and George Foreman is shocking.

CnC, is that a Wilford Brimley stache resting gracefully above Herr Griffith's supple lips?

Walter said:

CnC, is that a Wilford Brimley stache on Herr Griffith?

Click to expand...

What can I say? Griffith has Wilford Brimley hair

Thank you Griff for a good, healthy, laugh.
And CnC, I love the sacrifice symbol inside the grill. Does that mean you can sacrifice juicy steaks in stead of humans ? All that raw meat apostles usually eat can't be healthy.

Jehu said:

I do however, disagree with you on Griffith needing Guts to become Femto. I think that it would have occurred regardless... obviously there's no proving it, but I think that Causality would have pulled through without Guts quite easily.

Click to expand...

Here's another counter-argument to add to Aaz' list: In order to become an apostle or God Hand, you need to sacrifice something that is very dear to you. The Hawks were nothing but glorified tools to Griffith. Guts was his only equal, and thus his only true friend. See Volume 6 episode 6 for his reasoning. Griffith needed a friend, not tools, to sacrifice something of importance. Therefore, causality guided Guts to Griffith.

Also, I don't think that before the Eclipse, Guts had any way to step outside the flows of causality. He was just an ordinary human after all.

Ya, I agree with Pencil Knight. The Hawks were just tools Griffith was willing to sacrifice to "stack the bodies" to the castle. Guts was the only one he freaked out about losing, making him charge in to save him from Zodd earlier and leading him to break down when he left. Although Guts never considered himself and equal and became distraught after hearing Griffith speak to the princess on the hill of "what a true friend is", he was unaware Griffith was speaking of him. Even if Guts never considered himself equal the sacrifice required to become a apostle/god-hand requires you give up "someone so close its like losing part of your soul" in order to cut your last threads of humanity. The Hawks were sacrificed nonetheless but they weren't required, Guts was.

Shadow67733 said:

Pretty simply the band of the hawk along with Gut + Casca were already consumed/sacrificed as soon as they got the brand.

Click to expand...

They were sacrificed but not "consumed", at least not Guts and Casca. It's not really the same thing.

Shadow67733 said:

The fact Griffith took Femto's form before they were actually eaten by the apostles is just coincidence

Click to expand...

Why a coincidence? The transformation started once people were branded (meaning sacrificed). It's just that their deaths weren't needed per se.

Shadow67733 said:

All it takes is one good sacrifice(Guts) to become an apostle anyhow and becoming a godhand does not indicate the rules change.

Click to expand...

Yes it does indicate the rules change, and indeed they do. Griffith sacrificed his army, and Guts was simply a part of it. A very important part, and certainly the central element, but a piece among the others nevertheless. By no means can we say that Guts alone would have been enough of a sacrifice. This is definitely not how it's meant to be taken in the manga.

Shadow67733 said:

Its still that 1 for 1 formula..think Full Metal Alchemist equivalent exchange...lol

Click to expand...

Yeah well, not really.

Pencil-Knight said:

Here's another counter-argument to add to Aaz' list: In order to become an apostle or God Hand, you need to sacrifice something that is very dear to you. The Hawks were nothing but glorified tools to Griffith. Guts was his only equal, and thus his only true friend.

Click to expand...

You're mistaken. Until his year of torture, Griffith never considered Guts to be his equal and therefore not his friend either (and even after becoming obsessed with him while imprisoned, we still can't really affirm he saw him as an equal). That's why Guts left the Hawks... He didn't want to be viewed as a simple tool like the others. Griffith saw him as a most powerful tool, and he preferred to try to destroy him rather than to let him go away. In a way he didn't realize the importance Guts had for him until he had lost him. Also, the Hawks were Griffith's men, and while they were all tools in that regard (Guts as much as all the others in his eyes), they were the most precious thing Griffith had, what was supposed to allow him to become king.

Pencil-Knight said:

Griffith needed a friend, not tools, to sacrifice something of importance.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid that reasoning is wrong. If only Guts had been needed as a sacrifice then only him would have been sacrificed. There's no basis for your affirmation in the manga. If you read what is said during the Eclipse, the sacrifice refers to the Hawks as a whole.

Shadow67733 said:

The Hawks were just tools Griffith was willing to sacrifice to "stack the bodies" to the castle. Guts was the only one he freaked out about losing, making him charge in to save him from Zodd earlier and leading him to break down when he left.

Click to expand...

Griffith cared for his men even though he denied it. He cared even about simple soldiers. Guts was his most precious asset, a formidable warrior with an iron loyalty. Griffith cared for him most, yet he still viewed him as an asset for his army, like the others. Only he was not a loss he was willing to take, nor one that he could afford if he wanted to reach his dream.

Shadow67733 said:

Although Guts never considered himself and equal and became distraught after hearing Griffith speak to the princess on the hill of "what a true friend is", he was unaware Griffith was speaking of him.

Click to expand...

I don't think you understood that scene. Guts got what Griffith meant: that none of his men were his equal. Guts wasn't an exception.

Shadow67733 said:

Even if Guts never considered himself equal the sacrifice required to become a apostle/god-hand

Click to expand...

Why are you guys assuming there's no difference between apostles and members of the God Hand? I assure you there is...

Shadow67733 said:

The Hawks were sacrificed nonetheless but they weren't required, Guts was.

Click to expand...

WRONG. Seriously, I wonder what makes you think so.

Ah, another one of those long, informative posts.

I think it's safe to assume that Griff couldn't really afford to view anyone as his equal, because that would have meant that he acknowledges other peoples dreams and that's, i'm afraid, something he just wasn't capable of.
People who didn't exactly oppose him or who followed him were of almost no consequence for him directly, they were his tools and toys, as was said quite often enough. Yes, he cared for his subordinates, but not in a way that would put them on the same level as himself. His position, in life and dream, was always above everybody else.
So yes, even if Guts held a special place in Griffs heart, that doesn't make him an equal at all, he would still be a part of the "underlings", by Griffs point of view.

Hmmm, writing these lines reminds me why i hate that guy (Griff/Femto/ you name it) so much^^

Sigh...suppose I have more re-reading to do. I don't agree with all the answers I got although some I was wrong about are more clear to me now. It's obvious I interpreted some things much differently. Mostly because I saw Guts already fufilling what it took to be a "friend" of Griffith since he never depended on his dream, looked for his own reason to live, initially opposing him and also did later when he left the Hawks. Griffith may not have acknowledged it like you say but I still don't think breaking down like Griffith did obrt Guts departure is something he would do over a tool. Anyhow, thats how I came to my conclusions. Eve nreading it alot its easy to misinterpret things, although one of the reasons I do love this manga is how much it leaves to interpretation, for all the gore, swordplay and running around its not an unthinking series and has a lot of depth.