Can apostles return to human?

puella

Berserk forever
Apostles are those who were predestined to have Beherit with evil spirit.
However if an apostle regrets choosing evil power,
can he take his humanity back? I mean "can he return to human?"
Once one gives up evil power, I think, he can regain his oldself.
Besides, when an apostle can't be real evil thing, his power is weakened.
I'd take snail apostle's case. He couldn't sacrifice his own daughter, Theresia. Finally he failed to get another power and taken to hell.
what if he didn't die?
He refused to sacrifice Theresia. then Godhand takes his life away for the punishment? ::) or....
and I want to think about Griffith's downfall in relation to it.
I think reborn Griffith is a mixture of human and evil.
What if Griffith can't be real evil to Guts? I mean I want to know if it can weaken Griffith that he's not real evil, especially to Guts.
or should Griffith be real evil to reach his dream just because he was reborn by evil power?
 

roberto999

The Black Chick of Darkness
What is a apostle Puella? A  human with supernatural powers, or the fusion of a evil spirit with a human like in Devilman of Nagai? In other words Phempt is Grifith or Grifith + something else that existed before Grifith and nedded him to take a material form ?
In the snail count case he was anyway doomed to hell, the sacrifice of Theresia will have simply postponed it. And do you remember what  Phempt said to him? He didn't seemed to me much compassionate. However not to be evil doesnt mean to be good. That is if you kill everyone you encounter except one person you are "good" to that person, but you have everyone else to answer for
 

puella

Berserk forever
However not to be evil doesnt mean to be good. That is if you kill everyone you encounter except one person you are "good" to that person, but you have everyone else to answer for
According to Godhand, one who is willing to be an apostle or evil thing should give up all his humanity. there shoud be no exception.
So what I said above means if reborn Griffith still has the humanity for Guts, he can't be qualified to be the absolute evil power born in 1000years.
I think Snail count is similar case. he couldn't give up all things to get evil power. So he was disqualified.
 

Vermillion

If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use
As far as feelings are concerned, I think they can regain some of thier humanity. The count and Roshinu proves that. Only because they were once good hearted. People like Wild and the Snake Baron are different though, they seem to be the imbodiment of evil, then again we dont know thier stories.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
As far as feelings are concerned, I think they can regain some of thier humanity. The count and Roshinu proves that. Only because they were once good hearted. People like Wild and the Snake Baron are different though, they seem to be the imbodiment of evil, then again we dont know thier stories.
Roshinu was 15, and had only been an apostle for a few years. Wild was an old man, and who knows how long he had been an apostle.

Regain humanity? ... If you say so. Sounds a little idealistic to me. THe most the count and Roshinu accomplished was to admit their sins.
 

Griffith

With the streak of a tear, Like morning dew
Regain humanity? ... If you say so. Sounds a little idealistic to me. THe most the count and Roshinu accomplished was to admit their sins.
Well, I'm going to get much more idealistic. Sacrificing one’s self out of love seems a little heavier than merely admitting past wrongdoings. In my opinion, the Count regained part his humanity or he never lost it, the important part of the equation being true love. A "fatal nick" in Gawd Hand's armor if you will. ;D

-Griffith
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Well, I'm going to get much more idealistic. Sacrificing one’s self out of love seems a little heavier than merely admitting past wrongdoings. In my opinion, the Count regained part his humanity or he never lost it, the important part of the equation being true love. A "fatal nick" in Gad Hand's armor if you will. ;D

-Griffith
I dont know about you but 'I would do anything for love, but I wont do that'.
 

puella

Berserk forever
As far as feelings are concerned, I think they can regain some of thier humanity. The count and Roshinu proves that. Only because they were once good hearted. People like Wild and the Snake Baron are different though, they seem to be the imbodiment of evil, then again we dont know thier stories.
Agree. but you missed Griffith who is not an apostle though: once good hearted
I think three of them had good and bad heart together.

Well, I'm going to get much more idealistic. Sacrificing one’s self out of love seems a little heavier than merely admitting past wrongdoings. In my opinion, the Count regained part his humanity or he never lost it, the important part of the equation being true love. A "fatal nick" in Gawd Hand's armor if you will. ;D

-Griffith
Agreeeeeeeee though I don't know you :p

The aboves prove that Griffith still has humanity.
So, can it be true form of Millenium Falcon, wings of the darkness, etc etc....eh?(my dumb brain can't work well)
Not pure evil?
How could the one who doesn't dump his humanity be king of evil?
 
D

Drachenfels

Guest
I think good hearted people who become apostles can keep some of their humanity, but it's impossible for a apostle to become human again. They have already sold their sould to the devil.
 

puella

Berserk forever
Walter's fanfic made me revive this thread.
wow. almost 18 months ago?

The protector

Personally, I enjoyed that much.
I'm always wondering if there can be an apostle who wants to live like the priest.
I and Walter had a talk about that for a few minutes. He said "how about causaility?" when I said it could be possible if an apostle held back his apostle instinct in him. I added "though he can't live as perfect human form as he was"

Ah, causality is the most important thing to this.
If there is some apostle who wants to get back to his human form, abandoning his apostle form, could this be also a causality? ::)

What do you think?
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
I'd actually forgotten about this topic. The idea of Retribution among apostles was just somethign that happened as I wrote the story.

Anyway, in my fic the priest was the active agent in Causality by indirectly pushing The Protector into the Apostle Army. So my theory in this whole "regaining humanity" issue is that sure... one or two apostles might be capable of doing it, but they're only there to deter others. Ultimately, regaining humanity would be detrimental to Causality. Idea can't let humanity prevail too often. That's just bad business.
 
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Genn21

Guest
I think if a apostle returned to the side of humanity it would be because he felt something for allthe wrong donigs he has done. The thing ( i dunno if its going to be humanoid or not.. maybe like the count with the ability to change human. ) would proboly seperate itself from the rest of humanity unless its found some cause to fight for that has changed its life form being a apostle and join ranks with that. Most often i think tho if it regained its humanity it would indeed feel bad guilty or whatever in its conscious and go be alone knowing what pain the world outside has caused it individuality would be all it needs.
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
Walter said:
I'd actually forgotten about this topic. The idea of Retribution among apostles was just somethign that happened as I wrote the story.

Anyway, in my fic the priest was the active agent in Causality by indirectly pushing The Protector into the Apostle Army. So my theory in this whole "regaining humanity" issue is that sure... one or two apostles might be capable of doing it, but they're only there to deter others. Ultimately, regaining humanity would be detrimental to Causality. Idea can't let humanity prevail too often. That's just bad business.


How would one explain that Femto hesitated to kill Guts during the eclipse at the end then? Does that indicate he had some measure of humanity left in him, because he didn't want to kill Guts, before SK came and swooped him and Caska up?

One little ounce of humanity though...does that make Femto or the newborn Griffith good? Doubtful.

LG
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Lady Griffith said:
How would one explain that Femto hesitated to kill Guts during the eclipse at the end then? Does that indicate he had some measure of humanity left in him, because he didn't want to kill Guts, before SK came and swooped him and Caska up?

One little ounce of humanity though...does that make Femto or the newborn Griffith good? Doubtful.
Much has been said about Femto's hesitation. On the one hand, he could have said "Well golly, we had such good times, me and Guts. I couldn't squash an old pal like that..." Or he hestitated because he simply couldn't do it. Notice he looks at his hand directly afterwards. Could be Femto suddenly understood the chain of events that was to occur. If so, he's a mighty fast learner. Regardless though, the ultimate answer is that causality couldn't allow Casca to be injured. She was needed for the future reincarnation of Griffith.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
In my opinion I don't see how apostles could turn back into normal human beings. The apostles seem to live unnatural lifespans (i.e. Zodd) and gain unnatural abilities that even if they were to gain some humanity back, they could never undo their pact with the Godhand. I see the sacrafice and calling of the behelits as each apostle signing a contract with the Godhand. The sacrafice is their way of signing their name in blood, so to speak. They are working under the will of the Godhand, which as we know, don't have the best of intentions. When one makes the choice to become an apostle, they start a catalyst that removes itself so far from it's original form, it can't revert back to it. Though that doesn't mean it can't remember.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
Miyu said:
In my opinion I don't see how apostles could turn back into normal human beings.
Who said anything about that ? We're talking about restraining the apostle side, not being rid of it. Even in my story, it's still in the priest.
 

Miyu

I'm smiling on the inside.
I was responding to below from the first post. Sorry, probably should have made that clear.


puella said:
However if an apostle regrets choosing evil power,
can he take his humanity back? I mean "can he return to human?"
 
 

number18

a sci-fi bitch
Hmm, I kind of thought Phemt never killed Guts during the Eclipse as a way to make him suffer - death would be too good for Guts, if Griffith felt so passionately about him (I would say hate, but Griffith also had love...so I rename it as passion). I've only seen the anime though, so =shrug=

As for apostles reclaiming their humanity, I don't think they could physically revert...they'd probably immediately fall dead or something if that happened. I think, if anything, they could only realize their sins and fall into a sort of neverending repentence, and that would technically be a purgatory for them. How long would it take to redeem themselves? And even so, I think actually realizing what crimes they had commited would be too difficult. For someone who is evil, truly, and is completely and utterly selfish (thus having no compassion for anyone else, etc), perhaps the best they could do would be to realize that hmm, they are doing bad stuff, and it really sucks that THEY did it...

...but like Griffith said when he was transforming into Phemt, he was already far enough, he was already too much of a sinner and if he turned back he would only be suffocated by regret and guilt (he doesn't say that, but it's what would happen). To escape that pain, and to prevent himself from losing his dream, he chose the path he did. Maybe all the apostles realize that they are so horrible, put were forced to put it behind themselves, since don't they sacrifice to acheive a dream or goal?

=shrug= Again, I haven't read the manga, though, so I could be missing a lot of points. Ultimately, I don't think it's possible for an apostle to truly realize the wrong they've done and regain their humanity. To be human is to be compassionate...and no compassion exists in an evil heart, to me at least. Not a truly evil one, anyway...
 

SexyCharlotte

All those who wander are not always lost
I don't think the apostles can revert back to human. Once you basically sell your soul, that's it. You don't have a second chance when it comes to something as heavy duty as selling your soul. The apostles when dying revert back to their old human selves but as long as they are alive the dark side of their former humanity is what takes control. Even if they have some remorse, such as the Count for his daughter and Femto for Guts.

LG
 

Dark Wanderer

I'm evil :p
Walter said:
Much has been said about Femto's hesitation. On the one hand, he could have said "Well golly, we had such good times, me and Guts. I couldn't squash an old pal like that..." Or he hestitated because he simply couldn't do it. Notice he looks at his hand directly afterwards. Could be Femto suddenly understood the chain of events that was to occur. If so, he's a mighty fast learner. Regardless though, the ultimate answer is that causality couldn't allow Casca to be injured. She was needed for the future reincarnation of Griffith.

If so, wouldn't his gaze have been focused on Caska rather than Gatts, if only Caska was needed? Anyway, sounds quite unlikely to me.

Regain humanity? ... If you say so. Sounds a little idealistic to me. THe most the count and Roshinu accomplished was to admit their sins.

... don't you also forget, that the count did refuse to sacrifice his own daughter? and Roshinu did save Jill from that falling, burning tree ^_^. But all that only proves that apostles can be "good", but only towards a small number of people, whom they apparently loved/cared about when they were still human. I don't think an apostle can turn back into a human. However, I believe them to be able to control their own evil, if they want to.
 
Dark Wanderer said:
I believe them to be able to control their own evil, if they want to.

Too bad the desire in them control over their mind. Being granted by supernatural power, they assume that they are indestructable and that y they do all kind of evil deed becz no one can stop them

I dun think there is a way for apostle to turn back to their original human form. Once they died they will be dragged back to hell unless somehow the GH grant them another sarcifice like the count case!
 
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Genn21

Guest
Dark Wanderer said:
If so, wouldn't his gaze have been focused on Caska rather than Gatts, if only Caska was needed? Anyway, sounds quite unlikely to me.... don't you also forget, that the count did refuse to sacrifice his own daughter? and Roshinu did save Jill from that falling, burning tree ^_^. But all that only proves that apostles can be "good", but only towards a small number of people, whom they apparently loved/cared about when they were still human. I don't think an apostle can turn back into a human. However, I believe them to be able to control their own evil, if they want to.

Apostles arent going to turn back into "normal" people they've obviously never wanted to be normal. To be a apostle or something special as most of them see thereselves is something above the norm. Therefor they dont play by the rules the normal peon's do. They have power and they use it they are not thinking of consequences like , gut's down the road when the make there sacrifice for power. They know they desire something more out of life that they normally wont get . Later the on stage of regret falls in for some and they realise even through there all powerful compared torward normal people there emotional defences and human longings arent. ( say would a non emotional apostle be the perfect killer ? ) Take the count and roshinu when they realized whats truly important to them they came down to basis with the human world.
 

Dark Wanderer

I'm evil :p
A.S said:
Too bad the desire in them control over their mind. Being granted by supernatural power, they assume that they are indestructable and that y they do all kind of evil deed becz no one can stop them

The apostles are well aware of that they have got the power to do whatever they want, yes. However, not all apostles seem to be that arrogant.
 

petezilla

hahaha
Genn21 said:
Apostles arent going to turn back into "normal" people they've obviously never wanted to be normal. To be a apostle or something special as most of them see thereselves is something above the norm. Therefor they dont play by the rules the normal peon's do. They have power and they use it they are not thinking of consequences like , gut's down the road when the make there sacrifice for power. They know they desire something more out of life that they normally wont get . Later the on stage of regret falls in for some and they realise even through there all powerful compared torward normal people there emotional defences and human longings arent. ( say would a non emotional apostle be the perfect killer ? ) Take the count and roshinu when they realized whats truly important to them they came down to basis with the human world.

Yes Roshinu came down allright right on the floor of the human world.
 
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