Author Topic: Episode 290  (Read 40141 times)

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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2007, 08:57:26 AM »
And those lack of time lapses can sometimes make publishers irritated. Though by this point I doubt Miura has to worry about that much.

Yeah, I highly doubt he's ever taken any decision due to the publisher's pressure. Wouldn't really fit the character. Besides it's more the other way around, losing Berserk would be a fatal blow to Young Animal.

We can look back to the first time that the apostle army went into Wyndham and how Ganishka's Daka and Pishacha were getting beat pretty badly until Ganishka got tired of that nonsense and grew to epic proportions. If he's hoping to use mass numbers of semi-decent soldiers against a group of apostle, killing machines he's gonna fail. Let's hope he comes up with some strategies that will make this battle memorable.

I think it'll be memorable. It'll probably have to be in two parts anyway: the human soldiers battling each others in the open, and the monsters doing the same in the fog. I expect a grand scale. I'm also hoping for more astral creatures similar to the Kundalini to counter the apostles (along with Daka, Pishacha and such), not to mention Ganishka's magic. He's not stupid and certainly not resourceless, so I don't think he'll go down without a valiant fight. And while we already know he's going to lose, I find that if he could just deal a single blow to Griffith, even a small one, it would be some sort of small victory for him. An achievement for an apostle to have stood his ground against his designated master.

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2007, 10:54:45 AM »
Takarajima, I think.  The Osamu Dezaki one.

Most likely. Even without that line, the "apple barrel" is most definitely from Treasure Island, where the main character hid in an apple barrel and overheard a conversation (Silver's mutiny). Although that apple barrel was quite empty - but then, Puck needs a cushion.

Offline Feanor

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2007, 11:33:44 AM »
What do you guys think about the possibility, that ganishka could finally be converted by griffith?

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2007, 11:43:48 AM »
What do you guys think about the possibility, that ganishka could finally be converted by griffith?

That doesn't really jive with Ganishka's character. 
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Offline BiQ--

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2007, 11:47:32 AM »
What do you guys think about the possibility, that ganishka could finally be converted by griffith?

That wouldn't look nearly as good and mighty to the midland people. So, even if Griffith could do it, why would he do so?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2007, 11:52:08 AM »
What do you guys think about the possibility, that ganishka could finally be converted by griffith?

I think it's not actually possible.

Offline SaiyajinNoOuji

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2007, 12:55:51 PM »
From what I could/think I understood from what The Beast was saying was that with Guts being with his group is o.k. by The Beast for the time being, untill he catches up with Griffith anyways.

Thanks for the Episode CnC  :guts:
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Offline Damaramu

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2007, 01:41:17 PM »
You're dismissing Ganishka far too easily, and you're sorely mistaken if you think the whole battle in Wyndham deal will be over at the beginning of episode 291.

Personally, I'm not even convinced that Ganishka was not Griffith's puppet from the start - despite Ganishka's "I hate Griffith" rant earlier.  I mean without Ganishka, Griffith's path to the throne would be blocked - Griffith needed a Ganishka-type to attack Midland.  And what Griffith needs, he finds a way to orchestrate for himself.

In a full out apostle battle though, Ganishka forces have no chance - they have number but it's all canon fodder.  And Ganishka vs Griffith in a head to head is no contest either.  That said, it's improbable that Miura will skip over it entirely - especially if there is a revelation involved (something like the above)  - but I find it unlikely that it will very long.

There was a lot of inaccurate material in that first episode, but it was also easily one of the coolest of the whole TV series, so I wouldn't say that. And there is definitely a correspondence between the animated series and the manga. It's just an inaccurate representation. It's not happening later in the story or anything, don't be ridiculous.

Why is it so ridiculous?  (unlikely perhaps, but ridiculous?)
There is nothing in that first episode that fixes a firm time period for it.
As for being one of the coolest episodes, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on that.  I found it shallow, and cliche in comparison to the rest of the series.  The part I like best about Berserk is the characters are so well done - they think like people do, and they act and react like people do.  The first episode just feels different on so many different levels to me that I'll never truly like it.  The best episodes of the anime for me is the whole invasion of that so-called invincible fort arc (Doldrey?).



Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2007, 02:48:42 PM »
All this talk of an anticlimactic ending seems pretty presumptuous to me, without a translation. And anyway, we don't always get cliffhangers between story segments. I'd say it's the inverse actually. Not really sure what you guys expected. I like the way it ended with Guts being reflective. The last time he's had a chance to really reflect by himself was before the Moonlight Child showed up on the beach.

I didn't mean to imply that I was disappointed with the way the episode ended, especially since we're not getting the complete picture without the translation.  The only thing I was disappointed in was my 0/2 record of predictions yesterday. :void:

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2007, 03:10:48 PM »
There is nothing in that first episode that fixes a firm time period for it.
Armor. Hair.

Could you please drop this, or at least make a new thread about it if you're so convinced.
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Offline Luca

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2007, 03:11:47 PM »
I actually look forward to the switching back to Griffith.  Miura will do this well, I'm sure, since he's never let us (or at least me...) down before.  The guy knows how to do good narrative, and he knows what to deem important and unimportant to showcase in the long run.

I loved this episode's art, it was beautiful.  The picture of the Beast reaching for the Hawk  :chomp: gave me chills.

I am really liking Roderick/Farnese.  I think they are both free spirits and he can teach her to have more faith in herself. Serpico, as much as I like the guy, only fit in with the woman Farnese used to be.  Right now she is growing and he is having a hard time catching up, because his existence is solely revolved around her.  And that's no way to live for our poor man.  :serpico:
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Offline Proj2501

Re: Episode 290
« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2007, 04:48:08 PM »
I loved this episode's art, it was beautiful.  The picture of the Beast reaching for the Hawk  :chomp: gave me chills.

Especially the page with the Beast walking away. IDK what was said, but it left me with a very ominous feeling.

Switching back to the Final Battle this soon kinda makes me scratch my head. As I was discussing this was Aaz, it's sudden...but if the fight itself lasts for a volume or more, I could def. live with it.

Thanx for the ep. CnC.

P.S. Isidro was shouting from all the cannon fire I'm assuming? Haha, IDK but I've come to love his character. And Serpico seems lonely. :( And Azan STILL has his mask on, even during the celebration. Give it a rest old man!

Offline CnC

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2007, 05:21:08 PM »
I loved this episode's art, it was beautiful.  The picture of the Beast reaching for the Hawk  :chomp: gave me chills.

I wasn't as big a fan of the beast spreads, although they were well done.  I really like the image of beast dragging it's chains into the darkness, tho.  Wish that was bigger (even tho it would make no sense for the page's composition).
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Offline changsho

Re: Episode 290
« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2007, 05:57:23 PM »
I love the Beast spreads, though I'd prefer less of the digital effect on the fur... It sort of masks Miura's detail.

Offline Luca

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2007, 06:28:25 PM »
I wasn't as big a fan of the beast spreads, although they were well done.  I really like the image of beast dragging it's chains into the darkness, tho.  Wish that was bigger (even tho it would make no sense for the page's composition).

The page with the BEast and the Hawk was the only Beast picture I really liked for the actual quality and symbolism, but the one where the Beast is dragging its chains was great, too!  I'm mostly just excited to see its monologue, or whatever it is thinking.  It always gives us things to speculate about, or at least some more clarity.

I was mostly a big fan of the expressions this episode.  I don't know if anyone's noticed, or perhaps this is just me, but Guts looks more filled out in the face.  Before,it was a bit more bony looking, or longer?  Now he looks well rested again, and like he's gained back a bit of the weight he's lost.  Maybe that's just me, though. 

I loved Roderick's expressions, and Farnese's. 
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads?

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2007, 06:49:27 PM »
Personally, I'm not even convinced that Ganishka was not Griffith's puppet from the start - despite Ganishka's "I hate Griffith" rant earlier.  I mean without Ganishka, Griffith's path to the throne would be blocked - Griffith needed a Ganishka-type to attack Midland.  And what Griffith needs, he finds a way to orchestrate for himself.

No offense, but that's because you don't have a good understanding of the Berserk universe. It's not like Griffith's omnipotent, and Ganishka's character and situation are definitely not something he could have planned. If he has manipulated him in any way, it limits itself to his rescue of Charlotte and his recent proposition to move the battle to Wyndham. For all we know Ganishka could have become emperor before Griffith was even born. The fact everything conveniently serves Griffith's goals is the work of a higher power: the Idea of Evil. Since all of this has already been discussed and explained, I suggest you search for older posts on the subject to learn more about it.

In a full out apostle battle though, Ganishka forces have no chance - they have number but it's all canon fodder.  And Ganishka vs Griffith in a head to head is no contest either.  That said, it's improbable that Miura will skip over it entirely

It's not improbable but impossible that Miura would skip the battle completely, no use even mentioning it. Ganishka's forces are certainly not on par with apostles, but even during the rescue raid they weren't completely helpless. It seems relatively presumptuous to assume that they won't put up any resistance when we ignore practically everything of the battle to come. Even if they merely prevent the apostles from advancing and allow Ganishka to zap them it could lead to some losses on Griffith's side. And do you remember the Kundalini? That's not a creature I would call cannon fodder. There are really many unknowns left so if I were you I wouldn't be so categoric about how fast things will happen, especially given the huge scale. The battle between the two gigantic human armies should already take a good while on its own.

Since we're on the subject anyway, I'm wondering how Griffith will use Midland's "Resistance" in the battle (Foss, Raban, etc). He'll probably have them unlock doors, find discreet/secret issues or lead the way into the city to counter Ganishka's defenses, and I think that'll be interesting to see.

Why is it so ridiculous?  (unlikely perhaps, but ridiculous?) There is nothing in that first episode that fixes a firm time period for it.

It's ridiculous because it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. You have read the manga, right? There are plenty of things that fix a firm time period in that episode and you've already been told some. Just think about it. Do we need to remind you that Guts kills the Snake Baron in it? That we see Femto appearing along with the other members of the God Hand in some spectral form, making it impossible for him to be incarnated at the time? And generally everything being an alternate version of volume 1, when not identical. Besides, there's no reason to even discuss this as it's always been very clearly established by every official source when this episode was taking place. Really, please drop this because it's embarrassing.

As for being one of the coolest episodes, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on that.

Well you're free to think so of course, but unfortunately at this point I'm afraid your disagreement is not going to mean much to me. Besides, going by that logic, I'd rather just say that the whole animated series is subpar compared to the original and true story.

Offline Marik

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2007, 07:52:54 PM »
No offense, but that's because you don't have a good understanding of the Berserk universe. It's not like Griffith's omnipotent, and Ganishka's character and situation are definitely not something he could have planned. If he has manipulated him in any way, it limits itself to his rescue of Charlotte and his recent proposition to move the battle to Wyndham. For all we know Ganishka could have become emperor before Griffith was even born. The fact everything conveniently serves Griffith's goals is the work of a higher power: the Idea of Evil. Since all of this has already been discussed and explained, I suggest you search for older posts on the subject to learn more about it.

I'm in absolute agreement. In my personal opinion anyway, I like to identify Griffith as the final answer of the Idea of Evil for Mankind. IMO, since Miura took away episode 83, I transpose Idea's speech to a parallel one: The Egg Apostle's. Surely as you say Idea overwork Griffith's will to give manking a desired new world (the famous answers for mankind, that Idea talks about, in the lost episode).

Then Ganishka, talking with an "ideal" point of view, is just a puppet of himself. Many times, we may consider the "scenario" as a comedy planned by Idea to cheat mankind and make Griffith glaring upon the people... But it's the absolute manking Id that have desired that "comedy".

At last, till the end of this Battle, many messages could be grasped from, an eventual speech between the Two Comrades. :void:

Offline jepn30

Re: Episode 290
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2007, 08:12:04 PM »

[edit]
Also, as far as I'm concerned, there needs not be a one to one correspondence in time period the manga started in [with Casca in the Cave and Guts just wandering] and the anime start - for all we know the anime mistake  could have taken place after the whole Elfhelm saga we have yet to read.

It's statements like this that make my head want to explode. No offense but that makes no damn sense. By the way I don't see how the Berserk manga and the Berserk anime being injective (having a one to one correspondence) has any bearing in the order of events depicted there in - in fact I am not really sure you used that expression properly.

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2007, 08:50:51 PM »
Thank you for the scans CnC. I appreciate it.
Lovely episode. Lots of character development, which I can't translate. :serpico:

I have the impression that Serpico can live with the Farnese-Roderick thing. There's not much to go on, off course, since he isn't the talkative type. But I don't think Farnese will ever open up to him, and he depends less on her then he used to. Argh, what do I know?

Can somebody tell me what Puck is supposed to look like on Magnifico's head ?
A mind flayer, Cthulhu, Davy Jones, or Louis XIV ? :isidro:

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2007, 11:08:57 PM »
Puck appears to be dressed as a king of sorts...  judging from what I know about Magnifico, Puck is probably mocking his ambition he just told Roderick about "discreetly."

Offline Damaramu

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #95 on: September 29, 2007, 12:59:47 AM »
No offense, but that's because you don't have a good understanding of the Berserk universe. It's not like Griffith's omnipotent, and Ganishka's character and situation are definitely not something he could have planned. If he has manipulated him in any way, it limits itself to his rescue of Charlotte and his recent proposition to move the battle to Wyndham. For all we know Ganishka could have become emperor before Griffith was even born. The fact everything conveniently serves Griffith's goals is the work of a higher power: the Idea of Evil. Since all of this has already been discussed and explained, I suggest you search for older posts on the subject to learn more about it.
How could I possibly take offense?  My comments are only ridiculous, embarrassing, without good understanding, etc etc etc.

Now, I appreciate that you guys know your Berserk through and through - even better than me I'm sure, since I read most episodes only about twice on average.  Still, just because YOU think you know what will happen, doesn't make you always right.

My reasoning is rather simple:

Whatever Griffith wants he finds a way to get, and makes it look easy.  That's the character I see Griffith being designed as.  His one moment of weakness is when he met Guts, and everything kind of fell apart as a result.  Hence, one of the first things Griffith did after getting body back, was check to see if he still had his "Guts weakness".  When he concluded that it was cured, then in my opinion, he resumed being the character he was in the Midland era - one that has a master plan, and everything and everyone dances to his tune - knowingly or not.  Whether Griffith is 100% responsible for his success, or as you say, some "Idea of Evil" is helping out, is immaterial.

So, if I'm right, Griffith's goal of his own Kingdom is in pretty bad shape after the Eclipse - even after he gets his body infact.  As a conqueror, he'd never get the recognition he wants.  Without a war, he has no way of showcasing his leadership skills.  The Ganishka war is just a little too convenient for him, and I do not believe in accidents where Griffith is concerned.  Afterall, what better way to become king than rescue the princess and lead a rebellion to overthrow the tyrant?  And even if Ganishka is not in on the plan as an accomplice, then I'm just about convinced that he's still having his strings pulled by Griffith unknowingly somehow.  Everything else can be explained away as making things look realistic (even Charlotte might get suspicious if, when she's rescued, she sees Griffith shake Ganishka's hand on the way out of his front door).

Well, that's my view on the matter, and feel free to call me stupid or whatever else you want for it, we'll see who's right in the end.

It's not improbable but impossible that Miura would skip the battle completely, no use even mentioning it. Ganishka's forces are certainly not on par with apostles, but even during the rescue raid they weren't completely helpless. It seems relatively presumptuous to assume that they won't put up any resistance when we ignore practically everything of the battle to come. Even if they merely prevent the apostles from advancing and allow Ganishka to zap them it could lead to some losses on Griffith's side. And do you remember the Kundalini? That's not a creature I would call cannon fodder. There are really many unknowns left so if I were you I wouldn't be so categoric about how fast things will happen, especially given the huge scale. The battle between the two gigantic human armies should already take a good while on its own.

When I talk about things that haven't happened yet, I take it as a given that everyone knows that it's my opinions and theories they are seeing.  Certainly anything could happen, that's up to someone else afterall  :miura:.  At the same time though, I just don't see the idea of a bloodied and battered Griffith and a few of his remaining apostles waging a desperate struggle against Ganishka and his legions of seemingly invincible foes, as being too likely of a scenario - those kinds of Scenarios are reserved for Guts, not Griffith.  And on that note, I don't see the conflict being too long for one main reason - Guts is not there - and Berserk is, all in all, the story of Guts.  It would seem like a huge tangent to me for there to be a volume spanning Griffith battle with Guts being completely abscent.

It's ridiculous because it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. You have read the manga, right? There are plenty of things that fix a firm time period in that episode and you've already been told some. Just think about it. Do we need to remind you that Guts kills the Snake Baron in it? That we see Femto appearing along with the other members of the God Hand in some spectral form, making it impossible for him to be incarnated at the time? And generally everything being an alternate version of volume 1, when not identical. Besides, there's no reason to even discuss this as it's always been very clearly established by every official source when this episode was taking place. Really, please drop this because it's embarrassing.

Walter made a point with the armor (even though I'm personally hoping for the white in his hair to be fixed in Elfhelm), so I'll drop it.  I'm curious though, what other official sources are there other than the manga?  Does Miura give interviews which are published somewhere else or something?

Well you're free to think so of course, but unfortunately at this point I'm afraid your disagreement is not going to mean much to me.

Please forgive me for not caring.

Offline creampuff_war

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #96 on: September 29, 2007, 01:11:17 AM »
holy balls what a great episode. The pictures of the Beast are so sweet. It looked like The Beast was chewing on the chains.

The last couple of Beast shot confused me a bit. We see the Beast lunging for the white hawk...Then, is Guts looking at the Beast moving away from him, or is supposed to be something else? It almost looked to me like the Beast starts to grow wings just before Guts wakes up. It reminded me of the birth of Femto.
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Offline mike.william

Re: Episode 290
« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2007, 01:50:46 AM »
How could I possibly take offense?  My comments are only ridiculous, embarrassing, without good understanding, etc etc etc.

Now, I appreciate that you guys know your Berserk through and through - even better than me I'm sure, since I read most episodes only about twice on average.  Still, just because YOU think you know what will happen, doesn't make you always right.

My reasoning is rather simple:

Whatever Griffith wants he finds a way to get, and makes it look easy.  That's the character I see Griffith being designed as.  His one moment of weakness is when he met Guts, and everything kind of fell apart as a result.  Hence, one of the first things Griffith did after getting body back, was check to see if he still had his "Guts weakness".  When he concluded that it was cured, then in my opinion, he resumed being the character he was in the Midland era - one that has a master plan, and everything and everyone dances to his tune - knowingly or not.  Whether Griffith is 100% responsible for his success, or as you say, some "Idea of Evil" is helping out, is immaterial.

So, if I'm right, Griffith's goal of his own Kingdom is in pretty bad shape after the Eclipse - even after he gets his body infact.  As a conqueror, he'd never get the recognition he wants.  Without a war, he has no way of showcasing his leadership skills.  The Ganishka war is just a little too convenient for him, and I do not believe in accidents where Griffith is concerned.  Afterall, what better way to become king than rescue the princess and lead a rebellion to overthrow the tyrant?  And even if Ganishka is not in on the plan as an accomplice, then I'm just about convinced that he's still having his strings pulled by Griffith unknowingly somehow.  Everything else can be explained away as making things look realistic (even Charlotte might get suspicious if, when she's rescued, she sees Griffith shake Ganishka's hand on the way out of his front door).

Well, that's my view on the matter, and feel free to call me stupid or whatever else you want for it, we'll see who's right in the end.


Damaramu, Ya done fucked up son.  The accomplice suggestion went too far I think.

Offline Mage

Re: Episode 290
« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2007, 02:09:33 AM »
Whether Griffith is 100% responsible for his success, or as you say, some "Idea of Evil" is helping out, is immaterial.
Causality is one of the major themes if not the central theme of Berserk.  This is represented by Griffith, whose entire fate has been a machination of causality by Idea, and Guts, who is continually defying his own fate and fighting causality.  Dismissing this as "immaterial" just confirms all the criticisms directed towards you. 

As Walter mentioned, this isn't the appropriate thread for this...there is a speculations board that even Paradise Lost is welcome to rant in (maybe? :ganishka:)

Anyways, as for this episode, I'm surprised that I feel a bit emo, if the Beast really is saying goodbye (even if temporary.)   The chains are intriguing...at first, I thought they just represented Guts' restraining the Beast...but the connection to the eclipse sort of throws me off. 

Also, this is probably coincidental, but I thought it was a cool juxtaposition with Guts going to sleep as Griffith watched him go, and Guts waking up as the Beast walked away (again, if that's what's it's even doing).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 07:31:43 PM by Mage »
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Offline Lithrael

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Re: Episode 290
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2007, 02:32:43 AM »
Damaramu, Ya done fucked up son.

No no no.  It goes "Damaramu, isshou no fukaku!"   :serpico:

Of course Ganishka's actions have in the course of Causality come to benefit Griffith...  But it's the most left-field thing in the world to suggest Griff personally had anything to do with it.  It's not unreasonable to think he's intentionally manipulated events with Rakshas and Silat to some end in that direction...  But Ganishka literally in his service?  What?

I do understand a bitter reaction to a little 'elitism' on the forum, but we are all like COMIX IS SERIOUS BUSINESS over here, please don't be offended if we call a silly idea a silly idea.  We don't want to silence you unless all you want to do is keep on arguing a point after we pointed out how it was wrong.

I have spent enough time sailing upon oceans that I am getting all KINDS of nostalgic sensory sympathies with this episode.  Oh, Berserk, I hearts thee...