Author Topic: Griffith's point of view.  (Read 7155 times)

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Offline Beld

Griffith's point of view.
« on: September 25, 2007, 10:34:15 PM »
When I first started following berserk I admired and identified with griffith more than guts.
Looking at the story from Griffith's point of view we have a man born with at the lowest social class who looks at the life and power that the royalty and aristocrats have and makes it his goal to reach the highest level of royalty and get his own kingdom.  He struggles against his own conscience to follow this dream.  Taking the hawks with him on his way up but bearing a greater load than any of them.  Guts comes along and Griffith risks his life many times to save him...sometimes betraying his own dream to do it.  Then guts decides to leave him and shatters his confidence at the same time.  Griffith shaken slips up and seeks comfort with the princess and is imprisoned and tortured.  Maybe while he is being tortured at first he wonders if guts will rescue him the way he rescued guts so many times.  Time passes and he feels more and more betrayed by guts along with the torture that takes his sanity.
A year later the hawks along with guts rescue him after he is close to death and has lost everything he valued in life and his chance to chase his dreams.  Then he sees guts take the last thing he had left...the respect loyalty and admiration of the hawks and casca.  Now he decides he is done with his life and has no reason to live anymore....then comes the eclipse and he is given the option to either A.  Go back to where he was (on the verge of suicide) or to have all his ambitions and more by Sacrificing the hawks guts and Casca.  All of whom he was supposed to be willing to lose at any time during a war since they were his soldiers.  Didn't they agree to risk losing their life by following me into this war in the first place?  After everything I endured don't I deserve to have my dream?  In the end its either me or them....didn't I say that anyone who stands in the way of my dream should be destroyed even if that person is my friend and that my friend should destroy me if I stand in the way of his dream?  Yet still I shed tears when I chose to live...because I didn't want them to die.

I have not read every volume of the manga can someone fill me in on the evil things that Griffith has done since being reborn?  I can't say he has done anything truly evil as a human as far as I know. (Excluding what was done as femto since that was Griffith as a god hand not a human.)

Offline Black_Devil

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 11:00:52 PM »
Griffith's own words bit him on the arse, for someone to truly be his friend in his eyes, they had to follow their own dreams, not his, Guts did that, Griffith couldn't handle the reality of what he himself said what he considered a true friend was. He treated Guts and the rest of the Hawks as something he OWNED, they belonged to him so to speak. Everyone was a tool in his ambitions, he didn't care much for them, because as Griffith reflected, everyone was usually in the palm of his hands, whether they hated him or loved him, he had a strong hold on them. Guts on the other hand, had a strong hold on GRIFFITH, which shocked and surprised him when he came to the realization of it.

Griffith did come through on his word to the hawks that he'd take them with him as far as he went. They just didn't realize the darkness those heights were shrouded in. But honestly, the signs were there long before the Eclipse, Griffith's ruthless ambitions spurned anyone in his way to the top, the Hawks didn't have a problem with Griffith's dirty methods or schemes until they were on the receiving end of his ambition. Either way, you can't really justify Griffith's actions, but he'll do anything for his dream, that much he has stated any amount of times. :griff:

Offline carmilla

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 08:55:21 PM »
Dammit! I registered for this board specifically to start this exact topic and write almost exactly what you said and you beat me to it! But I still have a lot to add.

I've recently been rereading Berserk yet again. Before, there was no question in my mind that Griffith is and has always been evil, but I've changed my mind now. Let me explain.
Before, I believed Griffith was evil because he was too ambitious. Yes, those who followed him were aware that they forfeited their lives to him, all except Guts who was forced to follow Griffith. He believes that those who die for him ask of him only that he follow his own path to justify their deaths. In a sense, he is right. Flawlessly right. What happened to the majority of the Band of the Hawk was justified. Griffith is doing the will of "god" and in the eyes of all the Christians in his world he is absolutely justified.
But the reason I thought he was too ambitious is because his only goal is to become a king. He has no interest in helping others, he essentially wants to rule the "world." It's a horribly selfish ambition. Will of "god" or not, his destiny serves no purpose except to cause human suffering.

But I've changed my mind, sort of. There's two important factors left out of that equation. One is Guts. Guts never accepted Griffith's dream, he merely went along because he respected him as some one stronger. Griffith never proved to Guts that his dream was justified. Guts also underestimated Griffith's ambitions. As soon as Griffith seems comfortable and secure in his status in his new noble life, Guts decides he is no longer needed by Griffith and he decided to follow his own aimless dream. Griffith realized that the fact the he didn't convince his "friend," his Equal, and maybe even his Superior, that his dream was justified. He may have suddenly realized his own selfishness, and indulged it to his own self-destruction.
He eventually became stronger as a result, and out of petty revenge he tortures Guts in the most inhumane way imaginable. What he does to Casca is even more unforgivable, but I'm pretty sure he would have just killed her if he didn't know she was in love with Guts. Nothing about what he did to Guts and Casca is even remotely justified.

The second factor that changed my mind about Griffith: his success since the Eclipse. I know you said you haven't read that far but are willing to listen to spoilers so here goes. Believe it or not, Griffith doesn't commit any atrocities at all after the Eclipse. He returns to Earth reborn resembling his former human body, and he eventually does in fact become King of Midland (just a few chapters ago.) He's fighting to keep Midland alive in a war against the Kushans, and he's very much winning. He is the SAVIOR of Midland. He is their messiah. Even the friggin Pope bows before Griffith and declares him a savior.
But now he has his own kingdom full of people who literally worship him, what is he going to do with it? We don't even know yet. I have no idea myself what to predict. But we all know that Griffith was honestly aimless to begin with. He has no justification for wanting a kingdom. In fact, we know absolutely nothing about WHY he wants it. It seems like he simply thinks it's his birth rite. And that is simple selfsih ambition, even if he is saving people in the process coincidentally.

So in the end, Griffith isn't truely evil. He's aimlessly, selfishly ambitious, but the amount of people he has saved probably makes up for the amount of people he's betrayed and he is currently completely neutral except in the eyes of Guts. Guts isn't wrong, he's completely justified in wanting revenge, and again he is only doing what Griffith would do if the roles were reveresed. Is Guts truly good? He too is completely aimless. He wants revenge, and that is it. It's completely selfish. He also wants Casca's love but he can't have it. Griffith took that from him, probably forever. Guts isn't truely good anymore than Griffith is truely evil. They are both simply doing what they think is right, regardless of their lack of reasoning.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 09:10:43 PM by carmilla »

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2007, 03:49:19 PM »
See the funny thing is as I was following the story for the first time a long time ago.  The whole time I admired griffith and thought he was making the right decisions......then all of a sudden he killed all the hawks....and I was shocked.....but still couldn't deny that it seemed like the right decision for him to make.  If you look at femto's actions separate from griffith then everything he does seems justified. 

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2007, 05:47:20 PM »
Unfortunately Griffith and Femto are the same person, regardless of what form he's currently in.  It's impossible to look at them separately.

Offline Marik

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 06:03:02 PM »
Unfortunately Griffith and Femto are the same person, regardless of what form he's currently in.  It's impossible to look at them separately.

Surely they are the same person, but I wonder if He may have "new" feelings as a new being. I think that
 he's not femto and nor griffith. He's more than a God on Earth IMO..Maybe he could reveal some new way of being, since(except yhe recognize at the swords hill) he shows some way if thinking quite singolar.

Initially I used to consider Femto as the Id of Griffith, but now I think that, thoug hell reign over the so called human Doom(desired tough) a King of Final desired Man(as Idea suggested) maybe resembles on Griffith.

Idea tells him that his action, good or bad, will be fine for mankind, buts now, I may add that his action will be the one who is no longer a simple man, but someone who has the devine power(and maybe, behind his Dream, there could be this will).

IMHO of course.

Offline Scorpio

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 06:12:23 PM »
So what you're saying is that since Griffith has obtained divine power, he is no longer the same person?  I'm going to throw a superhero analogy out here to try and help make my point- Peter Parker was just some nerdy kid with little merit, but after he was bitten by a radioactive spider he got a fistful of new powers and became Spiderman.  These powers didn't change who he was, they simply changed what he could do.  He still went through all of his teenage angst and social problems, he just fought crime on the side because he could and he was predisposed towards helping people (due to the death of his uncle).

Anyway, Femto and Griffith Reborn are both still Griffith, he just has a better understanding (acquired knowledge, not a difference in who he is) of how the world/universe works and has some new powers to play with.  The only X factor that I see that could possibly keep him from being Griffith is the fact that he's using Guts and Casca's son as his body, which may corrupt his emotions and thoughts.

Griffith=Femto=Griffith Reborn

Offline Marik

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 06:40:06 PM »
Nope. I didn't mean that he's no longer the same person. Infact I was talking about "new" feelings...that not necessarely involves the pragmatic way of acting(thoug the past teach us the a "feeling" such as the Guts' One, has determined his fall). But not only edged to the son's feelings.

My speech bases on the still living Guts, I mean that, probably, since the reason of his fall, didn't desappeared with the sacrifice of the Hawks, though he asured himself meeting him that is heart is indifferent to him, maybe in a future, something may change. The reborn, as Femto, didn't provide the death of the one who for real he loved/hated in the final moment.

Slan says that the whole essence of an Hawk would provide to the new son of Evil the necessary feed to reborn.

So i'm asking if the Life of Guts(or his death) may turmoil the Griffith's one(and thus his fellings, even if at this rate as I was sayng before he's a god)

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 09:31:38 PM »
I think griffith and femto are different in some important ways.  Before griffith sacrafices the hawks one of the god hand say something to the effect of your tears will be dried forever.  This leads me to believe the process changed griffith's feelings in a supernatural way.  I can relate to griffith as a human....how can I try to relate to a being that has had his feelings altered in a supernatural way.  The fact that the "human" griffith and Femto's actions have been so different should be an indication that there is some difference.

If someone has some reference from the manga that proves that griffith and femto are infact completely the same emotionally and mentally then please let me know.  It makes a lot of sense to me that a humans emotions would be different from a god hands emotions due to more than just knowledge and perspective.  Do you believe your emotions are the same as what an animal or an insect experiences?

Offline carmilla

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 09:59:54 PM »
Did anyone even read my post?
Anyhow, Griffith was always evil even when he was human. Becoming a God Hand didn't change that. He decided to betray everyone when he was still human, before he was reborn.

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 10:14:37 PM »
I disagree I don't think griffith was "Evil" as a human.  Berserk is more complicated than that.  The fact that he is a killer could make him evil in some people's eyes but in the world of berserk you seem to either be a killer or a victim.  The people griffith kills .....well I have not seen him kill without good reason.  He kills in warfare as soldiers do in the real world.  He kills in self defense as is typically deemed acceptable.  He kills a perverted child molester who is an enemy general.... his killing is sometimes shady but he seems to express that he doesn't enjoy killing which enforces the view that he kills out of necessity.  Remember he told guts something to the effect of I enjoyed fighting with you....it was fun.....not like killing.......

All that said tells me he is human and not some insane evil monster.  I don't think he is evil at all.

Offline carmilla

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 12:12:34 AM »
1. He's not an insane monster. He was an evil human being because his beliefs were what lead him to hurt others.
2. I'm not specifically saying that killing = evil. Guts kills PLENTY enough and I think he's good.
3. It's not kill or be killed that caused Griffith to rape Casca and torture Guts. He did it for pleasure. He did it because he was jealous of Guts being stronger than him, and Casca loving Guts instead of him. It's that simple, that's why he did it. Revenge, I supose, for Guts "abandoning" him.
But the truth is Guts didn't really abandon him. Guts was never truely by Griffiths side to begin with. He only followed him because he was stronger for a while, and only when Guts repayed what he owed Griffith and knew he was stronger that him he left, as any disciple should. You could say Griffith was a sort of father figure, helping Guts learn values, strategies, and to grow strong.

It's a case of the father figure (or the master, teacher, senpei, role model, whatever you wanna call it) becoming jealous of his own disciple because he became stronger than himself. Guts didn't owe Griffith anything because he put his life on the line many times for him. They were completely even. It was appropriate for him to leave, and what Griffith did himself is his own fault.
I've already explained it, which is why I'm annoyed at repeating myself. After Guts left, Griffith realized this also meant that after all those years Guts never did become loyal to him. He realized Guts was stronger and more noble than himself. After this realization, Griffith became self-destructive, and this was what lead him to learn to hate Guts and desire revenge so badly. He falsely blames Guts for destroying him.

Griffith was evil from the beginning because his only goal in life was pure ambition. He does not seek to improve the world, merely to be on top of it. He cares not for if he has to kill every innocent person in his way to get there. There are so many people who believe in his charms, but they do not realize he does not plan to repay them and prove his worth. They cause their own downfall, but it's not those who believe in him being destroyed I feel bad for. They get what they had coming. It's those who try to fight against him, such as Guts, who shows how truly evil Griffith actually is.

There's another thing. In terms of common literary motifs, I must point out the obvious, OBVIOUS symbolism that may not be intentional but explains exactly what's going on in Berserk. I'm not a christian, but essentially Griffith represents the Anti-Christ. Of course, that would make guts Christ. I don't deny it, and I'm not saying it's exactly the same as the bible, but for all intents and purposes that is exactly what is going on in Berserk.
Griffith is a false messiah. He saves the people of Midland, but he is not a real savior if he's willing to destroy other nations and other innocent people to protect himself. I bet at some point he will invade other kingdoms and destroy them. It seems like something he would do.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 12:21:14 AM »
I will say that I disagree on several generalizations that you made in your last argument. Most of them are wrong if examined only a little and I bet if I took the time to ask for specification you would agree with me. Only I don't feel like debating at this moment. Perhaps someone else will take this up with you if they feel the same as I do.

Offline carmilla

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 12:35:23 AM »
I um...edited it a few times. I supose you mean you disagree with my Griffith = Antichrist theory.
Yup, I can go on forever. I doubt I'll change my mind.  :zodd: But really I'm just elaborating and repeating myself.

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 01:19:18 AM »
I disagree completely Carmilla.

If he is evil because his beliefs led him to hurt others then by that reasoning many more characters in berserk are evil than good or neutral. Such as Guts, Casca, and the rest of the hawks.  Didn't they all make their living on hurting other humans?

Guts is good in your eyes despite murdering children and probably many more men than have died by griffith's hands.

We won't see eye to eye on your point about griffith raping casca because Femto raped casca and to me that is not the same thing at all.  I have been shown no evidence that Griffith and Femto have the exact same mentality, personality and emotions.  I don't think griffith would have raped casca the way femto did.  Also didn't "the beast" almost rape casca?  Would you give guts the same accountability for that if he had raped her because of the beast?

"Griffith was evil from the beginning because his only goal in life was pure ambition. He does not seek to improve the world, merely to be on top of it. He cares not for if he has to kill every innocent person in his way to get there."

How many completely innocent people has Griffith killed on his path to getting his kingdom?  Not Femto but griffith. (Serious question because I don't know)

So if guts were to find two countries fighting and pick a side randomly...then join that fight and over the course of the war slaughter 10,000 people during battle in a war he doesn't believe in or care about aside from making sure he wins all his battles would he still be a "good" guy in your opinion?


 

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 01:24:27 AM »
Also when people think of griffith it seems like they tend to get tunnel vision sometimes.  Griffith definitely cared about who he "stepped on" to achieve his dreams.  He struggled with it much more than guts did in the golden age.  Don't forget the flashback to griffith scratching himself in the lake with casca or the one about the little boy who wanted to be a knight.  He asked guts if he thought he was a bad person because he struggled with the morality of the things he had to do.  He was not an uncaring monster who only thought about his dreams and ambitions even tho he tried to be and claimed he didn't care he obviously did.

Offline carmilla

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 03:29:56 AM »
The truth is Griffith decided to become Femto, whatever that meant it would take. He knew full well it would destroy them all. He made this decision as a human being. If he just suddenly was transformed against his will into a monster then they wouldn't be the same. But he decided to become this way, and therefore is responsible for all of his actions since.
Gah...brain freeze...too much to consider...
Alright...next point... if Guts raped Casca, would I hold it against him? Absolutely. No question about it. Guts desires to become like Griffith probably because it's the easiest way out of his problems. The fact that he doesn't act on it is another reason he is noble, as difficult as it may be. His evil side is what makes him strong enough to defeat Griffith someday. If it weren't for the fact that they are alike in their ability to kill without remorse, Guts wouldn't be a worthy opponent. However, Guts simply has a worthwhile goal, to stop Griffith, who is more of an evil against society than he is good.
It's true he hasn't hurt anyone besides Guts and Casca who didn't have it coming since the Eclipse. It's also true he is willing and able to do so. We have yet to see the consequences of his evil side, but even if there are none, what he has done against the main characters is enough to justify their revenge.
The question REALLY becomes a matter of if Griffith's destruction by Guts will cause more human suffering than if he abandoned his quest. This is a 50% chance of happening in my guess. Regardless, Guts is justified to do it, even if it's the wrong thing to do.
The right thing to do would be if he forgave Griffith, which'll probably never happen. I suspect Casca already has.
But what's justified and what's best isn't always the same thing. I'm not saying they are. Griffith isn't justified, Guts is, that's all I'm saying. Guts isn't really a hero because he seeks revenge, a selfish ambition as bad as Griffith's ambition is. But if he prevents Griffith from commiting more atrocities against the innocent, he is a hero. We don't know if that's what'll happen or not. We cannot rely on fate.

The thing about Berserk is it focuses so much on fate. Constantly, Guts is being told what his fate is, and constantly he is defying it. Griffith is following his fate, so he is the opposite. Griffith is winning, but that doesn't mean he's right. Guts believes fate doesn't exist. He doesn't believe that there's any way to know if Griffith will be good or bad for mankind. He only knows he is capable of evil, and has done evil already. Please don't ask me about what I mean again, I've already explained several times that Griffith exacted unjustified revenge against Guts and Casca, and that is his own fault.

The thing is, even if he never did hurt Guts, and if Casca was killed more humanely, Griffith would still be evil in my opinion, simply for his selfish ambition alone. But Guts would not be justified in taking him out in any way if that were the case. The self-destruction of the idiots that follow Griffith is their own mistake.

[edit] To answer your question about if Guts had killed aimlessly, would he still be a hero? Well I'd call him neutral. He only does what he needs to to survive, and if that means he becomes a tool for another person's ambition, that's fine and he gets what he deserves. But he is noble enough to know better.

Offline Gibraltar

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2007, 03:52:45 AM »
Looking at the story from Griffith's point of view we have a man born with at the lowest social class who looks at the life and power that the royalty and aristocrats have and makes it his goal to reach the highest level of royalty and get his own kingdom.
Uh-huh...

Then guts decides to leave him and shatters his confidence at the same time.  Griffith shaken slips up and seeks comfort with the princess and is imprisoned and tortured.
Griffith was the one who stated he could only respect one who follows one's own dream regardless of what it meant for him. As for seeking comfort in the bed of the princess...Well, that was just dumb. You don't throw away your dream for a little comfort (especially not with the princess). And you don't risk the foreseeable consequences harming yourself and comrades. I still cannot comprehend that decision (Griffith sleeping with the princess).

 
Maybe while he is being tortured at first he wonders if guts will rescue him the way he rescued guts so many times.

Its been awhile since I've read the earlier Berserk chapters, were the rescues really so lopsided?

Then he sees guts take the last thing he had left...the respect loyalty and admiration of the hawks and casca.
No. Griffith's stupidity (sleeping with the princess) caused his at that point tortured, hideous condition (and therefore), the loss of admiration from the Hawks, and the Hawks' destruction. He was well on the way to the thrown before the touching the princess.
 
Didn't they agree to risk losing their life by following me into this war in the first place?
"Risk" is the key word. As in there is a chance they'd survive. I don't think any of the Hawks would have agreed to die outright for Griffith. You could say that even given the Eclipse there was a chance for survival-since two people did survive, but that wasn't Griffith's intent.

That brings me to something I'd always thought about, and  was brought up here by Carmilla: the Hawks loyalty to Griffith. No doubt they were loyal to Griffith; he was charismatic, good looking, a talented fighter and strategist. He was on his way to the top, and when he got there, they'd be better off too. Or so they thought. Carcas expressed a desire to one day be a land owner. From the looks of things, the Hawks were loyal to Griffith because of his aforementioned attributes and/or because he could leave them living better than they would be otherwise.

About the rape of Casca. Firstly, I am against rape (theres a tough position to take, lol). However, I think I know why Griffith raped her; she was the only woman he respected/loved enough to have his son/self. IT HAD TO BE HER. Whether she wanted it or not.

Offline Beld

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2007, 02:44:26 PM »
First I just want to say I really enjoyed the arguments/debate in this thread.  One of the reasons I love berserk is because of the complex moral and philosophical issues it brings up.  I love the way you can see an evolution of the characters views as well just like people's views on these issues tend to evolve as they get older and experience more in life I can see the characters struggling through those same issues at times.

Back to the discussion .....who here can honestly say that if they were in griffiths shoes they would have chosen to die at the eclipse and not sacrafice the hawks?  Also before you answer that I would like you to really imagine yourself in his place and work your way through the events of the story up until that point.  Imagine you have gone through the battles, killing, the death of hawks in battle over the years, and you had been tortured and were on the verge of suicide and answer truthfully then please explain.

Offline Jaze1618

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 01:14:01 AM »
Prepare for one of the sloppiest, emotionally driven, rush jobs i ever wrote.

In addition to what beld is saying, also consider that beings who appear before you as gods are helping you rationalize this decision by re framing the scenario into one where sacrificing everyone was the noble thing to do. If god came before you and told you that you were destined long ago to be legendary and this was the step that you had to take to achieve that. The mountain of corpses had been piling up for years, to get high enough to reach the kingdom the pile would have to become even taller.

There wasn't alot of time to really weigh the pro's and con's. Griffith still had the same tortured body inside the abyss and was still dying from the self inflicted neck wound.
A) God(s) telling you that this is your destiny. IE: I am destined to be here and do this, sure I could still say no, but isn't god all knowing?  Whether you are christian or not, lets use their god as example. You are mortal, he is seemingly infinite, I would probably listen to him especially If I had just lived the last year of griffith's life one moment at a time


B) "Are you griffith really prepared to sacrifice everyone who has already died for you here and now? All those people who gave their lives to see your success?"  (if you could ask the fallen ones and they were still humans, with human wants and fears,(not all knowing spirit energy) they would probably say that this is not why they died or that they wanted griffith to sacrifice the hawks.) Conrad and ubik use this persuasion when they show griffith his past to coerce him into sacrificing everyone.

Griffith did make one assumption, and that was that the hawks, guts included, had already signed in with him and were no different then the fallen hawks of days past, everyone lived and died to see his dream come to fruition. To not continue chasing his dream would be the real mark of betrayal.

IT was much easier to make this decisions about the hawk's lives, for the hawks, then actually ask them what they thought and then make the decision. Also do not forget that there was a bit of a rush to make a decision because like Void pointed out to griffith he still had the same tortured body inside the abyss and was still dying from the self inflicted neck wound. Showing the count die before making a decision about sacrificing his daughter in volume 3 highlights this very well.


To wrap up a few extra points that belong somewhere in the above,

There is no absolute definition for good or evil, Griffith had a perspective on life that others who weren't strong enough to chase their own dream would put everything they had into seeing his succeed. He was willing to die for his dream everytime he went into battle, surely they were willing as well by following him.

It's not like griffith didn't care about those around him or of their opinions of him, as much as he probably did want to remain emotion free and chase selfishly after his dream, he cared enough guts' opinion of him to check in and ask if  guts thought he was cruel, likely with the intent of wanting to be accepted by guts for his behavior, if guts did not accept, He may have been willing to consider his actions and correct them to hold onto guts approval. Guts however gave him the green light in that scenario.


Anyone who agrees with carmilla's point of view, please the next time you reread volumes 4-12, analyze everything (especially the "boring" parts) through the lens of how it all plays into griffith not being able to be labeled evil and guts not being able to be labeled good. (there is no absolute good or evil, everything is justifiable to the perpetrator if you look at the path they took to get there).

Griffith was still very hesitant to sacrifice until the idea was presented that no sacrificing them was betraying them.

In conclusion:

Griffith's positive intent was to do the right thing and be able to hold his head up high. Honoring those who had died and not betray those who had rallied swords with him. They were everything to him and he couldn't have used them for a sacrifice if they weren't.

The great tragedy of berserk lies in that while Griffith could not be moved to betray his loved ones. His philosophy and ideals did not provide him with the proper tools to actually do that, and he infact betrayed everyone in the eyes guts and probably the hawks who die in the eclipse.


It's too complex of an idea for me to sum up any better then that. And I'm not satisfied with it.

Thanks for the help Lith!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 03:29:30 AM by Jaze1618 »

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 10:44:54 AM »
About the rape of Casca. I think I know why Griffith raped her; she was the only woman he respected/loved enough to have his son/self. IT HAD TO BE HER. Whether she wanted it or not.
The flaw in this theory is pretty obvious. The child was Guts', not Griffith's. Femto only tainted the unborn child.

Quote from: Jaze1618
Anyone who agrees with carmilla's point of view, please the next time you reread volumes 4-12, analyze everything through the lens of how it all plays into Griffith not being able to be labeled evil and guts not being able to be labeled good. (there is no absolute good or evil, everything is justifiable to the perpetrator if you look at the path they took to get there).
I'm certain that Griffith isn't evil in Griffith's eyes. From the perspective of an observer though, you can't say that. Unless you are predetermined that he isn't, off course. But what's the point of reasoning if you already have your conclusion ready ?

Offline C

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2007, 07:30:36 PM »
Here's the good ole fashioned C take on things.   :troll: I will take the parts I agree with, add my own special sauce, and cook it up in one paragraph. Straight to the point, because if not, people start losing interest if it's too long winded, yes?   :serpico:

Here it goes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you had one word to choose to describe Griffith what would it be? An overall Griffith, not just the early years or after he was Femto-ized. I would not say ambitious, outgoing, charismatic, and definitely not evil. He was overcame by my one word. Selfish, in my opinion. He knew his goals and after the little boy died "chasing his dream", Griffith knew he had to do whatever it takes to make his true. Ordering men into battle to die, sleeping with Gannon, sacrificing the Hawks, you get the point. Selfish, stingy. I'm sure he felt bad, the bad you feel when you eat the last cookie and tell someone you thought they already had one. Bad for a sec, but ecstatic you got yours. How happy is he now? Of course he didn't put the unintentional trap that he held on to called Guts in his plan, but you never know.    :guts:

I could expand greatly on my thoughts, and write cool stories and parables, but I'm , sleepy and I think most people reading this are pretty intelligent and get the point.   :void:

 - C

Offline All_4_Yume

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2007, 08:10:22 PM »
For an ambitious cold calculating murderous thief hellbent on becoming king Griffith was about as decent as he could be. This is why I like his character and that's why I think it's hard to hate him.   I think he was a talented, sensitive dude couldn't bear the emotional weight following his dream would cause.  This sensitivity could explain a lot of the things he did and it could explain why he became cold. I suspect he probably had a "nearly almost fucked-up like Guts" upbringing because no matter how painful chasing his dream became he never ran from it. Even the most heinous thing he did (raping Casca in front of Guts) was understandable.  He basically flipped out after being physically and mentally destroyed for a year.  True, his blame was misplaced, but people lash out on the closest thing to them sometimes.  I might have to look at my volume again but swear I remember Femto having this "what the fuck did I just do?" look on his face after he was finished right before SK came in. 

Anyway, I'm a proud Griffith fan who will ride him over anybody in the Berserk universe except Guts.
"I can't live simply because I was born."
-Griffith

Offline Hazevamp

Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2007, 05:17:36 PM »
Berserk is actually the first story where I can honestly say I like both the main character and villian equally.  But as much as I like Guts and Griffith I can't make excuses for their actions.  I have never viewed Griffith as being evil.  He had a dream and was willing to do whatever it took to make it a reality.  That's actually something I admire.  But as it was pointed out before, Griffith suffered from a case of "foot in mouth" disease.  In the end he was the cause of all his own suffering.   Guts had a right to persue his own dreams and live his own life.  I don't blame Guts for striking out on his own and for seeing his own dream (aimless or not) as something worth more than Griffith and his dream.   

As for his actions as Femto, well the moment Griffith chose to become Femto he was Femto regardless of when the supernatural stripping of his human qualities came in.   So IMO Griffith and Femto are the same.  When Griffith raped Casca he was still angry at Guts and wanted to destroy his dreams completely.  And he depised that Casca was falling for Guts because he felt he owned her too.  If Femto was a different entity than Griffith, those feelings would have never carried over.  And Femto saying that he doesn't care about Guts anymore can't be taken much into account since Griffith has always contridicted himself regarding his feelings for Guts.

Offline Luca

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Re: Griffith's point of view.
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2007, 02:04:50 PM »
 :griff: I love how Griffith's character will always spark massive debate, and anyone who thinks he has him completely figured out and isn't Miura will always have an eyebrow raise from me.

That being said, there are certain parts past the human world where your consciousness cannot survive.  Griffith sank deep and deep into these parts, with thoughts of wanting to die, then of thoughts of feeling numb and void of anything--and this was even after he had been shown his 'true nature' by the Godhand and agreed to sacrifice his companions.  'Griffith's' last actions, if I recall, were in chapter 83 in which he was told to do as he wished, and he stated with a cold look on his face that he wanted 'wings' (of course, what that meant to griffith was obviously just...not to grow pretty wings). 

He then hatches, swoops down and commits an act that is so personal and human (in all of its inhumanity) while staring at Guts in spite the entire time.  Of course no doubt he did this to hurt Casca, too.  I think, as it has been stated before on these boards many times, it's obvious that Griffith and Femto are one, because Griffith transformed into Femto.

Griffith's actions throughout the manga are grand.  Like most actions that affect on a grand scale, many can argue for or against quite a few of them (It is the personal ones such as raping Casca in front of his best friend that one can hardly argue about the morality).  In order to be a leader, to rise from a lower class and carry such a heavy burden on your shoulders, it's actually quite hard to be a 'good' person throughout it all.  Moreso if you are leading an army in which people are dying for you every day on the battlefield.  You cannot let that get to you or you will not achieve the 'greater good' in your own eyes.  Griffith obviously had let that get to him deep down, but like all humans he had dualities about his mentality and had also convinced himself that since they were all willing to die, they were just tools and should not hold his sympathy or burden him with guilt.

Griffith was a man who enjoyed dreaming.  He enjoyed surrounding himself with people who dreamed of him, who had an idealized version of him.  As he stated in the dungeon during his mad ramblings, he either had everyone in the palm of his hand, or people becoming his worst enemy and wanting to do away with him.  He never had that type of control over Guts, and Guts humbled him in a way.  Guts made him do human things that may or may not have had true logic behind them, and Guts' biggest dreams never involved Griffith.  He wanted Griffith happy because Griffith was his friend, he was proud to fight for him and help him out, but what he wanted was not in the Hawks. 

Griffith loved Guts and while he probably cared for a few people in his life (Casca and Charlotte, debateable, and the Hawks on a level...though mind you he still thought they were tools, or had convinced himself), there's nothing 'off' or wrong about the first real love in your life (that isn't a dream) being a friend.  What Guts did for Griffith was humble him in some ways, weaken him in some ways, and made him vulnerable to actually caring about a loss.  So while Guts made Griffith more human, that earned his contempt. 

I don't think Griffith was evil all along, he just did what he had to do.  From his point of view, and if we had gotten more introspective on to his character we would probably have a better understanding of him, without people either writing him off or overanalyzing and justifying every little thing he did.  In the dungeon, when we had introspective into his thoughts, I remember being surprised while reading because I had no idea his thoughts, as mad as they were, were so passionate about Guts.

As for certain other things about Griffith, there are points about his character that I don't think the entire fandom of Berserk put together could ever truly agree on , which is why this is such a complex and well-written story.  For example, because of how in awe/worried he had been shown to be for Guts and even for Casca during the fight with Wyald, or how lost he looked when he overheard Guts and Casca talking of Guts leaving, or him reaching out to help a falling Guts during the Eclipse, I don't believe he tried to jump Casca's bones in the wagon like so many others believe.

I can see how people would think that, and can be sometimes half-convinced of it.  Though,  I feel he was desperate for Casca at the moment, because of course in his mind Guts had taken away everything that made him strong and a 'happy' individual, so he wanted to have what was rightfully his.  I believe his 'lunging' at Casca could have just been a desperate attempt to 'cling' to her or claim ownership, but I am not so certain a twig-like Griffith with probably no real libido after being tortured by an obsessive creep for an entire year would want to rape her. 

I believe that came after he was granted a strong physical body again, and after he was fully convinced by the Godhand and by Idea Itself that this was all meant to happen anyways, so he shouldn't fight it.  The last thing he wanted to do before Guts and Casca were fully sacrificed was probably just to humiliate both for betraying him, and see Guts' dreams crumble like his own did.


It's so very ironic because for being the most surreal-like godly character in the manga for so long, so much of what Griffith did was painfully human.   :void:
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads?