Author Topic: It always bothered me to no end!  (Read 10010 times)

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DemiAngel

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It always bothered me to no end!
« on: November 15, 2007, 08:12:39 AM »
Why Griffith is always portrayed as the pure, white falcon while we know how corrupt and evil he is?  :judo:

And why Guts, the main protagonist is always portrayed as an evil villain!  :beast:

Why these guys in the manga are so blind? :miura:

smoke

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 08:49:12 AM »
Read the book of Revelations.  :carcus:

Also, we, the reader, know the truth. That bastard Griffith... :griff:

Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 10:13:04 AM »
Well, Griffith is portrayed as a heroic savior because that's part of his evil plan! :zodd: Also, I don't think Guts is always portrayed as a villain. The H.I.C.K. mistook him for the Hawk of Darkness at one point but that's it. He's just a guy minding his own business, and he doesn't make efforts to look good.

Duststorm

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 06:16:18 PM »
       I always found that interesting, how Guts is called the Black Swordsman while Griffith is the white hawk.
It makes Guts look like the antagonist and Griffith  the good guy.
         
        It really makes me laugh how the pope reacts to him,  can t he recognize an evil god when it is right in front of him.  :ganishka:

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 07:24:33 PM »
It really makes me laugh how the pope reacts to him,  can t he recognize an evil god when it is right in front of him.  :ganishka:

Given what has occurred so far due to Causality, I don't believe he could have acted/reacted any other way.  He doesn't know what the reader knows, so there isn't anything at the moment that's telling him Griffith isn't really the savior everyone believes him to be.

Offline Slime_Beherit

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 10:53:28 PM »
Good and evil have no colors

though i never really though as Guts being good or Griffith being evil

Pencil-smith

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 01:29:02 PM »
If I were an ordinary peasant or soldier in the Berserk universe, or even a classier member of society, I'd much rather follow Griffith's banner than deal with Guts any day of the week.

When has Griffith ever done anything wrong to the general populace that is public knowledge ?
Guts, on the other hand, has slaughtered dozens of children and hundreds of assorted living creatures in plain sight.  :beast:

So I can easily understand their depiction in-universe.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 01:45:02 PM »
If I were an ordinary peasant or soldier in the Berserk universe, or even a classier member of society, I'd much rather follow Griffith's banner than deal with Guts any day of the week.

If you were an ordinary person you wouldn't know anything about Guts before meeting him.

Guts, on the other hand, has slaughtered dozens of children and hundreds of assorted living creatures in plain sight.  :beast:

Dozens of children? Don't be ridiculous. Rosine's lackeys were murderous monsters and needed to be disposed of.

Pencil-smith

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 01:53:30 PM »
Dozens of children? Don't be ridiculous. Rosine's lackeys were murderous monsters and needed to be disposed of.
Yes, off course they were. No doubt about that.
But that wasn't what the inhabitants of Jill's village witnessed. They found Guts between the smoking corpses of their missing children.
I don't consider Guts' actions there evil, but I think the villagers do, and they'll remember the name Black Swordsman with dread.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 02:26:50 PM »
But that wasn't what the inhabitants of Jill's village witnessed. They found Guts between the smoking corpses of their missing children.
I don't consider Guts' actions there evil, but I think the villagers do, and they'll remember the name Black Swordsman with dread.

They saw him near the barn of one of their neighbors that was chock full of burning corpses. This made them think that he could be in league with the "elves" that had been terrorizing them for years (Puck didn't help in that matter). They knew the "elves" were taking their children away, not this man that had just come into the village a moment before, after having rescued Jill. The thing is, both Jill and the kid he had used as bait for the bugs could explain what had really happened (even Zepec saw Rosine's last flight), and not only that but if they thought about it a minute the villagers could easily realize the truth (it's not like he was hiding all those corpses in this pocket, actually the one looking the most suspicious here should have been the barn's owner). Those that really declared him guilty were the H.I.C.K. at the time, without them the villagers wouldn't even have known he was called the Black Swordsman.

So after Jill will have told the townpeople that the Black Swordsman got them rid of the "elves" (which they won't have failed to notice) and explained the whole thing, how do you think they'll remember him? I'm not saying Guts doesn't "look scary" sometimes, but he's not the ogre you were depicting in the previous post.

Offline Sparnage

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 05:01:22 AM »
It's obviously a very intentional symbolic contrast or opposite. I firmly believe it's a nice change from many typical stories using the same formulas of what is good and evil, and what they are stereotypically, or at least commonly portrayed as.

Offline Okin

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2007, 05:15:11 AM »
Would you be less bothered by a photoshop image of the two characters faces swapped? If that was ever in the actual manga I may just vomit onto my lap. Just imagine putting Griffith's face into every scene of Guts. You'd break into laughter whenever Miura tried to make a serious scene.

Guts: "Casca did you hear a word I said? I'm leaving the Hawks!"

Casca: "Sorry Guts. I was distracted by your flowing hair. You were saying something about campfires right?"
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Offline Locus of Agony

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 12:46:32 PM »
Bad guys wear white. It's been a long standing pop culture rule. :ganishka:
Seriously though. Who's more evil? A demonic god who hides beneath a pure white coul? Or a battle hardened man who wears his darkness effectively, if not proudly?
For every single day you lived, for every fragment of your broken dream, the night is so evanescing.
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Offline Escalus

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 08:48:43 PM »
It has been done before in fantasy literature (L.E. Modesitt's 'The Magic of Recluce' came to mind)...

I read em when I was 13 and IIRC the kid was harassed by mind-numbingly blank magick (i.e. white) from the evil man/woman antagonists, while his Sardit staff was earthy, black, and would burn the shit out of the bad guys.  He went into great detail about black representing the power of construction.  It has been awhile...but I'll always remember how logical Modesitt made it all seem...

and now, considering Berserk, it makes total sense, and bothers me not a jot  :chomp:

EDIT:

oh, snap.
Moby Dick.  doh.

In real life he was Mocha Dick, and he sunk The Essex.
Melville made him white to convey a sense of raw, unfettered doom.
Wrote a whole chapter on it ("The Whiteness of the Whale").
Also, while I'm at it, check Edgar Allen Poe's, "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket" for more white badness.

Offline Shadow67733

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 05:25:33 AM »
Hmm well the people are pretty desperate always being at war in poverty and being killed in nasty ways. Griffith leading an army to liberate them does have a great "good guy" appeal, also he was formally known before as "Midlands savior" and quite famous. Throughout history every country has had its "heros" and leaders built up, hey look at most former world dictators. Also the mass dreams of the white hawk have a great religious appeal as well; even those who aren't blinded by religion have to accept those visions. Its pretty much an "evil often hides under the guise of great good" type deal. On the other hand Guts is just scary looking and is usually covered in blood and slaughtering things half the time you see him, its not like he goes out of the way to create a good image of himself, lol. Good and evil are just words. Neither Guts nor Griffith can be described so simply. Yes Griffith sacrificed his men but its not like that makes it any diff then him doing it in a battle, either way was to achieve his dream. I don't recall his motives being hidden at all throughout the story. Guts isn't really an angel himself, lol. I mean is Guts slaughter of 100 men really much diff from Griffiths sacrifice of the Band of the Hawk when things measure up? When it comes down to it there is just the points of view. They both are doing what they must to survive and follow their paths in a pretty unforgiving world.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 08:15:37 AM »
Good and evil are just words. Neither Guts nor Griffith can be described so simply.

I don't know, depends on the period. By all means Femto and the rest of the God Hand are pure evil. On the other hand, while Guts has done bad things, considering the world he lives in and the choices he's had, I think we can say that he's a good person.

Yes Griffith sacrificed his men but its not like that makes it any diff then him doing it in a battle

Well yes, it's a bit different. Mercenaries fight for a reward, they're not suicidal. Killing them off after they made the extra effort to save him and dooming them to a nightmarish afterlife isn't the same as having them willingly follow him into battle knowing they could die. You can't deny that there's a dishonorable spin to it. And it also isn't like Guts killing the hundred men that attacked him in a fight that was by all means unfair to him (100 vs 1?). That battle fails particularly as an example too, since he was only defending himself in the first place.

I don't recall his motives being hidden at all throughout the story.

What motives? Were his men told they'd be sacrificed and offered as food to monsters? Let's not be hypocritical here.

Offline Smith

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 09:19:07 AM »
If you were an ordinary person you wouldn't know anything about Guts before meeting him.

I thought he was quite IN-famous?


Anyway, the colour of black and white between good and evil is suppose to be something ironical as oppose to common belief (the link between colour and characteristic)


Basically its trying to say never judge a book by its cover
It piss me off when I see weaklings, it make me want to crush them

Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 09:30:59 AM »
I thought he was quite IN-famous?

You thought wrong. Did people recognize Guts in Vritannis? Did they recognize him anywhere? No.

Offline asic

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2007, 04:29:34 PM »
Saruman anyone? he was white :troll: and pretty darn evil

Offline Shadow67733

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2007, 06:04:55 AM »
I don't know, depends on the period. By all means Femto and the rest of the God Hand are pure evil. On the other hand, while Guts has done bad things, considering the world he lives in and the choices he's had, I think we can say that he's a good person.

Well yes, it's a bit different. Mercenaries fight for a reward, they're not suicidal. Killing them off after they made the extra effort to save him and dooming them to a nightmarish afterlife isn't the same as having them willingly follow him into battle knowing they could die. You can't deny that there's a dishonorable spin to it. And it also isn't like Guts killing the hundred men that attacked him in a fight that was by all means unfair to him (100 vs 1?). That battle fails particularly as an example too, since he was only defending himself in the first place.

What motives? Were his men told they'd be sacrificed and offered as food to monsters? Let's not be hypocritical here.

While you have some pretty valid arguments and I agree with you on most of your arguments I don't recall using morality once in any of my points other then to make a common generalization about griffith and guts as examples... From a moral standpoint yes, Guts is "good" Griffith "evil"...if you want to make it that simple...everyone seems to. When I said good and evil are just words, they are just that, people use terms like good and evil to lightly without any grey area. Good and evil are pretty simple generalizations with no room for grey and i'm not talking about simple. So I say again..without bringing morals into it.. is Guts slaughter of 100 men any diff from Griffith's sacrifice of the rest of the band of the hawk?  You still end up with a pile of dead people and its still the same end result. Looking at it that way it goes way more into the grey area, good or bad intentions not mattering. Is it a big moral difference hell yeah but my argument was not involving morals. I'm not trying to weigh morals here i'm talking obvious end results. If you go and shoot someone in the head and kill them or accidentally do the same thing are the results any diff? Come on, don't make me break it down even more. As far as motives Guts was told himself by Griffith that he would decide the time and place where he died for him..."sacrificed". Going through the whole story its not hard to see how much Griffith was willing to do or give up to get where he wanted to be. No I suppose it didn't cross the minds of his men they'd be sacrificed to MONSTERS..who the hell tells them or thinks of that?! But his men being sacrificed fighting in battle for him is not such a big stretch of imagination. He practically threw everyone in the fire at Douldry which they happily made it out of. Ya know, win and be victorious or die horribly...The point is everyone knew where he was trying to go and how much he was willing to sacrifice to get there.
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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 01:05:39 PM »
From a moral standpoint yes, Guts is "good" Griffith "evil"...if you want to make it that simple...everyone seems to. When I said good and evil are just words, they are just that, people use terms like good and evil to lightly without any grey area. Good and evil are pretty simple generalizations with no room for grey and i'm not talking about simple.
Whoa whoa whoa, before you get started here, let me just show you a little something showing you this whole good/evil thing isn't just some agenda Aazealh is pushing. It's Miura too. Evil's not just a word used to simplify things. It's a real construct of the Berserk world. EVIL EXISTS:


Conrad, explaining to the Count in volume 3 what will happen if he makes a sacrifice. You know, the same kind of thing Griffith undertook to become Femto?

Now I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue, but I do believe part of your argument is useless since you're preaching to the choir. Does Berserk have more depth in its characters than most series? Certainly. Is Griffith's transition to evil fully explained through the Golden Age? Certainly. So, what exactly is your point beyond all this? That bodies pile up a lot during a war and both Griffith and Guts are culpable for their deaths? ... How astute.

is Guts slaughter of 100 men any diff from Griffith's sacrifice of the rest of the band of the hawk?  You still end up with a pile of dead people and its still the same end result. ... If you go and shoot someone in the head and kill them or accidentally do the same thing are the results any diff?

That murderer Rickert is on the same level as Guts, don't leave him out of this critical argument!
:femto: :slan: :ubik:

Offline Shadow67733

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2007, 09:46:01 PM »
Not very astute, but that was my point. A simple statement..you are still cupable for what you do good or evil aside..thats it, no mystery.. but after being blasted by moral shrapnel one I felt I had to explain even though I am preaching to the choir. I wasen't going for some deep quandry with that statement there is no point beyond what it says.. And yup that bastard Ricket as well..i'm glad everyone gets it so easily, so why I am being argued with over an obvious statement? Yes I know evil exists as a being in the Berserk world thats obvious too..but as far as Guts goes it apparently is not as simple since it "depends on the era and world he lives in". That was the grey area I was talking about. Thats all.
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Offline Death_Maiden

Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2007, 03:04:56 AM »
Actually this makes me think about the disciples & Mozgus and their symbolism against the real history of the church and the popes and how corrupt it really is/was despite its holy & good will standings.  Most often that which appears just is far from it and much of it is deyed or "lost" in time.  This is how I feel it is with Guts and Griffith on a lower scale as well, but thats just me.  Either you fight through the demons or except them and make due with life or you become them and trick other collective souls into your trap card with manipulation and scare tactics, though for the band of the hawks it would be trust in a falsehood, but anyways.
Again I'm not saying good vs evil but more like evil and truths, and well to me anyways truths are good, truths are just and correct whether the one upholding the truth fights inner demons himself or not, at least he is accepting the truth of what he may be.

So I say again..without bringing morals into it.. is Guts slaughter of 100 men any diff from Griffith's sacrifice of the rest of the band of the hawk?  You still end up with a pile of dead people and its still the same end result.
Also i believe there is a difference between sacrifice and death but that may be because i do have an interest in religions.  For sacrificing there are rituals, pre-plannning, manipulation and everything has to be done right.  While Guts "meaningless" kills were done for self protection and maybe even the pure fun of liking to kill/fight; impulsive.

Offline Aazealh

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2007, 07:22:23 PM »
I don't recall using morality once in any of my points other then to make a common generalization about griffith and guts as examples... From a moral standpoint yes, Guts is "good" Griffith "evil"...if you want to make it that simple...everyone seems to.

You're mistaken. It's not that people are "wanting to make it simple", it just IS pretty simple. And it's written all over the manga. Yes, the God Hand is evil. Yes, the apostles are evil. And the Idea of Evil is evil, too. And Guts is pretty much not evil and a rather good person, as continuously emphasized from volume 1 to volume 32, even though he's killed people and done reprehensible things. There's a grey area of course, but that shouldn't prevent you from weighing the good and bad within each person and seeing the obvious. Besides, you're also simplifying what I said in my original reply here.

When I said good and evil are just words, they are just that

No, they're clearly not just words in the world of Berserk. What you're trying to do here is bring up some discussion on how morality is relative and artificial, but there's something you're overlooking: while your arguments can work in our world and modern societies, they can't work in the fictional world of Berserk where the author, Kentarou Miura, can decide, definite and precisely state what is evil and what isn't.

So I say again..without bringing morals into it.. is Guts slaughter of 100 men any diff from Griffith's sacrifice of the rest of the band of the hawk?

Well obviously, you didn't read my previous response attentively enough, so I'll repeat myself. Yes, there is quite a big difference. Sacrificed people are doomed to an afterlife of torment as a part of the Vortex of Souls. Being branded is really not a nice thing. Sacrificing someone isn't like simply killing them off. You really picked up the worst possible example here.

Is it a big moral difference hell yeah but my argument was not involving morals.

Actually I do think it was, even if you didn't intend it. And you were wrong several times in what you stated, too.

As far as motives Guts was told himself by Griffith that he would decide the time and place where he died for him..."sacrificed".

He never told that to his men, though. He hid quite a lot of things from them, and felt bad for it. And obviously, at the time he said that to Guts, he wasn't referring to a sacrifice to the God Hand with all of what that entails.

Going through the whole story its not hard to see how much Griffith was willing to do or give up to get where he wanted to be. No I suppose it didn't cross the minds of his men they'd be sacrificed to MONSTERS..who the hell tells them or thinks of that?!

He did seem to care quite a lot about his men at several points through the story. In fact it's part of the grey area Griffith stood in before he became Femto. And well, if they didn't know they'd died branded by the God Hand and eaten by monsters, I guess your argument is invalidated.

But his men being sacrificed fighting in battle for him is not such a big stretch of imagination. He practically threw everyone in the fire at Douldry which they happily made it out of. Ya know, win and be victorious or die horribly...The point is everyone knew where he was trying to go and how much he was willing to sacrifice to get there.

That's really not the same thing at all, sorry. You can't say that because the strategy to take Doldrey was risky, the Hawks should have expected Griffith to literally betray them all in a most horrible way. That's just ignoring a whole part of his character and how it developed over time (the desperation he felt while imprisoned, the descent into semi-madness, etc), not to mention the machiavelian, manipulative and inevitable influence of causality over all those events and how it shaped and lead Griffith to accept the sacrifice. The word "sacrifice" is also more than a simple word in the context of this discussion, you know. Griffith's sacrifice to become Femto can't be compared to "sacrificing" some men in a battle by assigning them a dangerous position on the battlefield.

Yes I know evil exists as a being in the Berserk world thats obvious too..but as far as Guts goes it apparently is not as simple since it "depends on the era and world he lives in". That was the grey area I was talking about. Thats all.

Evil exists as a definite condition. Some actions/beings are evil (meaning they're stated to be evil in the manga) and some aren't. That simple fact isn't in itself simplifying anything, because it doesn't make characters and situations stereotypical. Actually, I feel that in the course of your argument you're the one who's actually making things simpler than they really are. And yes, it's also simple enough as far as Guts goes, and you know why? Because while it depends on the era and world he lives in, it turns out he only exists in a single context: the Berserk universe, in which it can't really be said that he's evil. Who cares how he'd be considered in another world or story?

Offline Forest Wraith

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Re: It always bothered me to no end!
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 02:22:20 AM »
Miura was considering a story based on Vlad Tepes before he started on Berserk right? It's relevant that Vlad is considered a Folk-Hero in his native Romania, in spite of his reputation and deeds. I guess Miura's got a thing for figures with Morally Ambiguous attributes.
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