Symbolism of This whole eye thing....

Well, i have read in prior posts about the whole one eyed swordsman with the arm, and the demon dog internal spirit. i've looked but haven't seen much to think about and ponder. So,..i gotta ask some of the bigger berserk fans than me, which is saying something, what do you all think about the missing eye, it's possible symbology, as well as his inner beast. These are my thoughts. and when

Loss of the right eye.
•Could be symbolic due to the concept of greek mythology of who defies the gods (GODHAND in berserk) who were known as the titans (which there were six of them could be a relation to the six members of guts’ band), of these titans were the cyclops who were known for their fowl disposition being strong stubborn and abrupt of emotion. They were also synonymous for brute strength and power. Ie Guts.
•Norse mythology odin gave one of his eyes in the search for wisdom. REF Thor comics of Ragnarok
•Could be reference to the evil eye that is a folklore belief of envy that will result in their mythology. Envy of Guts and Griffith ultimately bestowing the dark misfortune in their lives.
•Chinese mythology representing the Jian which is a mystical bird with one eye and one wing. Usually in pairs representing husband and wife. Being that casca is now an “innocent” which could be interpretated as she has acquired guts’ loss of innocence so soon and the overall need for each other. For one can’t exist without the other.

•Shadow; I feel the demon dog is based upon the Jungian philosophy regarding the shadow itself. In Jungian philosophy the shadow in dream analysis and is part of the unconscious mind consisting of repressed weaknesses, shortcomings, and instincts. Which is the conversations Guts has with his inner beast.
•Inner beast; The unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the persona, or outer aspect of the personality known as an anima and/or since it is a spectral being could be related to a nocturnal specter and has been regarded as a portent of death. Which is noted by the SK stating that Guts is constantly escaping death due to him being born unto/into death making him able to do so and is also a sign of death in European mythology. Which also Denotes the timeframe and assumed area of Guts’ world of medieval Europe ie Cerberus and scavaging habits of dogs and it’s survival instincts

but that's what i think the symbolism presents.

Or it could be Miura Mythology:

Guts loses his right eye - a permanent reminder that the last thing he saw with that eye was the worst moment in his life. He lives and acts solely to exact vengeance on Griffith and to protect Casca.

I don't think Miura actually needs to draw from any outside sources. Just because Guts is missing an eye doesn't all of a sudden mean he is a cyclops of the Greek Mythology, Odin of the Norse Mythology, or loss of innocence under Chinese Mythology. Miura created his own meaning for the eye and I think that's all there is to it.

As for the inner shadow or "beast", you could say that it's Jungian, but I doubt those were the exact words that went through Miura's mind as he created the inner-self of Guts. And that's basically the problem with comparing Berserk to common mythological ideals: just because a concept or symbol resembles a certain mythology, doesn't mean that it has to conform to a more popular genre. Miura created a world with separate intentions and unique meanings - in other words, not everything he has created needs to have a source.

yesmilord said:

Or it could be Miura Mythology:

Guts loses his right eye - a permanent reminder that the last thing he saw with that eye was the worst moment in his life. He lives and acts solely to exact vengeance on Griffith and to protect Casca.

I don't think Miura actually needs to draw from any outside sources. Just because Guts is missing an eye doesn't all of a sudden mean he is a cyclops of the Greek Mythology, Odin of the Norse Mythology, or loss of innocence under Chinese Mythology. Miura created his own meaning for the eye and I think that's all there is to it.

As for the inner shadow or "beast", you could say that it's Jungian, but I doubt those were the exact words that went through Miura's mind as he created the inner-self of Guts. And that's basically the problem with comparing Berserk to common mythological ideals: just because a concept or symbol resembles a certain mythology, doesn't mean that it has to conform to a more popular genre. Miura created a world with separate intentions and unique meanings - in other words, not everything he has created needs to have a source.

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I see your point and i can agree with it. I was just throwing out some possibilties to feed my curiosity. I am primarily intrigued in it's possible meaning. Why his right eye and not his left *outside of artistic choice or being for arrangement for the way manga is printed*.

And i've kinda caught wind on this site about his eye opening again when he is in battle. i don't remember seeing anything noted on the speculation boards. Being an art student myself, there IS a reason for the eye being taken. It is used to represent that worst day around volume 13 when Guts mentioned the last thing that his right eye had seen, the rape of Casca by Femto being the only reason for it's importance. But i don't really think it is.

just curiosity to explore some new ways to think about it.

Skorne said:

I see your point and i can agree with it. I was just throwing out some possibilties to feed my curiosity. I am primarily intrigued in it's possible meaning. Why his right eye and not his left *outside of artistic choice or being for arrangement for the way manga is printed*.

And i've kinda caught wind on this site about his eye opening again when he is in battle. i don't remember seeing anything noted on the speculation boards. Being an art student myself, there IS a reason for the eye being taken. It is used to represent that worst day around volume 13 when Guts mentioned the last thing that his right eye had seen, the rape of Casca by Femto being the only reason for it's importance. But i don't really think it is.

just curiosity to explore some new ways to think about it.

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As far as deciding between eyes, I believe Miura chose this with a simple concept in mind. For most of us (excluding the ambidextrous), we associate our primary side with our right side because we use our right hand to perform most tasks (such as writing, dribbling a ball, holding a weapon, etc.) Therefore, the latent attachment to all things "right" transfers into greater sentiment when losing the right eye. That's my take on it, and I was thinking if Miura had chosen to take the left eye instead the symbol would have a slightly less powerful impact on me for the reason mentioned above.

It's fine to spawn points of curiosity about Berserk's symbols, but just know if you make literal mythological or literary comparisons I will hound you down for it! Long live Miura-ism!!!

You wont find much support on this board for any thinking that involves direct outside influences-- i.e. Jungian psychology or specific mythic references, whatever case you might present. I think you bring up a lot of interesting point-- I found the bit about Odin particularly interesting. I agree with the other poster that I doubt Miura had some of these specific mythic concepts in mind, but I think there's more to say with the Jungian bit.

Most people don't seem to get the idea that you're supposed to be able to apply Jungian psychology to things when you deconstruct them regardless of whether that artist intended to use that influence, because the references are such a deeply set part of the human subconscious. It's the same for Marxist readings of text or Freudian readings-- it doesn't matter if the artist lived before Marx or Freud or Jung were born, or if the artist ever read them or not.

But usually, here, you'll have a hard time with the regulars. Interesting post though.

I'm not going to discourage you, seeing as I also have a habit of making speculations based on archetypes that might not jibe all that well with the series. However, I will note that I don't see how any of your speculations really fit the series. It doesn't make sense to pick and choose mythological creatures that innately have one eye and attribute aspects of characters from Berserk too them. Guts is not a Cyclops in any way, shape or form; he was born with two eyes, isn't a giant, isn't cannibalistic and has never raised sheep or called for Zeus or any other God to avenge him. Trying to link the two because they are both noted for being prone to rage and possessing great strength is just a stretch.
Admittedly, Miura does use it as a minor motiff, note that other characters who suffer from partial blindness are used for contrast or as a means to elicit empathy, sometimes even from other characters. Vargas being the most obvious example

Wow, I think the passive-aggressiveness toward the board in QuestionMark's post is so apparent that Carl Jung could recognize it from Hell. My thoughtful analysis tells me the author intended it, though. =)

In any case, Skorne, I dig your analysis, or any lofty psychological philosophy being applied to Berserk in general. It takes me back to when I truly had a passion for this kind of speculation before my theories were all crushed one way or another. This is off topic, but it reminded me of a psychological evaluation of Guts I did for my Mental Health coursework, I should post that sucker. I didn't very clearly explain to my instructor the origin of my subject, other than he's a character from a great work of foreign literature...

<Ashamed of me and my field, huh!?
<Maybe he didn't want to mention it's published in a Japanese porno mag.
<Grrrrrrrrrrr!
<In any case, it's not YOU he's ashamed of.
< ...

Griffith No More! said:

Wow, I think the passive-aggressiveness toward the board in QuestionMark's post is so apparent that Carl Jung could recognize it from Hell. My thoughtful analysis tells me the author intended it, though. =)

In any case, Skorne, I dig your analysis, or any lofty psychological philosophy being applied to Berserk in general. It takes me back to when I truly had a passion for this kind of speculation before my theories were all crushed one way or another. This is off topic, but it reminded me of a psychological evaluation of Guts I did for my Mental Health coursework, I should post that sucker. I didn't very clearly explain to my instructor the origin of my subject, other than he's a character from a great work of foreign literature...

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L O L.

Way to lighten the mood

Okay obviously i didn't ask my second question which is something i meant to do. So, what do you think of the few ideas i threw out there. Right or wrong, i thought they were interesting to note. Like the Evil eye I just thought that little note was highly intriguing. And the Odin thing.

Forest Wraith said:

I'm not going to discourage you, seeing as I also have a habit of making speculations based on archetypes that might not jibe all that well with the series. However, I will note that I don't see how any of your speculations really fit the series. It doesn't make sense to pick and choose mythological creatures that innately have one eye and attribute aspects of characters from Berserk too them. Guts is not a Cyclops in any way, shape or form; he was born with two eyes, isn't a giant, isn't cannibalistic and has never raised sheep or called for Zeus or any other God to avenge him. Trying to link the two because they are both noted for being prone to rage and possessing great strength is just a stretch.

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And i shall now play devil's advocate.
Again, i wasn't trying to make that big of a stretch. I thought it was a bit nifty. And who says Guts isn't raising Sheep? Upon his return the Raiders said they'd follow him no matter where he went. And now his new band are following him regardless of the consequences. People are sheep. Doesn't seem like a stretch to me. And if i remember right, Guts did Bite Casca... Besides, i'm just throwing it out there.

yesmilord said:

As far as deciding between eyes, I believe Miura chose this with a simple concept in mind. For most of us (excluding the ambidextrous), we associate our primary side with our right side because we use our right hand to perform most tasks (such as writing, dribbling a ball, holding a weapon, etc.) Therefore, the latent attachment to all things "right" transfers into greater sentiment when losing the right eye. That's my take on it, and I was thinking if Miura had chosen to take the left eye instead the symbol would have a slightly less powerful impact on me for the reason mentioned above.

It's fine to spawn points of curiosity about Berserk's symbols, but just know if you make literal mythological or literary comparisons I will hound you down for it! Long live Miura-ism!!!

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And i don't know about the right side dominance, but a very good point. I still think it was artistic choice based on the right to left reading style making the left side the better choice. While western graphic novels tend to show a left side eye loss. Generally due to the closeness of the reader to the page
And you know yesmilord,...your going to make me do it to you just for the sheer fun of being a smartass.

QuestionMark said:

Most people don't seem to get the idea that you're supposed to be able to apply Jungian psychology to things when you deconstruct them regardless of whether that artist intended to use that influence, because the references are such a deeply set part of the human subconscious. It's the same for Marxist readings of text or Freudian readings-- it doesn't matter if the artist lived before Marx or Freud or Jung were born, or if the artist ever read them or not.

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Thanks for catching that QuestionMark

Griffith No More! said:

Wow, I think the passive-aggressiveness toward the board in QuestionMark's post is so apparent that Carl Jung could recognize it from Hell. My thoughtful analysis tells me the author intended it, though. =)

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That was great. Plain and simple. and having this convo with people who like berserk as much if not more than i do.

Skorne said:

And who says Guts isn't raising Sheep? Upon his return the Raiders said they'd follow him no matter where he went. And now his new band are following him regardless of the consequences. People are sheep.

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This is a bunch of horse shit. Each character has their own personal reasons to follow Guts which have been fully explained between volumes 23-current. If you've missed out on that, I'd suggest re-reading it... I thought even when playing a Devil's Advocate you had to at least make some sort of sense?

Griffith No More! said:

Wow, I think the passive-aggressiveness toward the board in QuestionMark's post is so apparent that Carl Jung could recognize it from Hell. My thoughtful analysis tells me the author intended it, though. =)

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Hahaha-- I didn't think there was anything particularly passive about it. Seemed pretty direct and to the point to me. Definitely intended it. Sorry if I wasn't more direct.

There's a lot to like about this board, but to me this aspect is not one of them. That's all. It's just not really a particularly open non-judgemental venue for that type of conversation. I don't think that's any big stretch to say. And it doesn't really seem like a big deal to say that it's frustrating for me at times since I like that type of conversation.

That's the whole shebang. I've long since given up being angry about it. But if you want to make more cutting witty remarks, no biggee to me.

On that point, I think we'd all agree: we don't enjoy reading paragraph upon paragraph of bullshit.

I find nobody is actually bothered by cutting witty remarks, at least according to survey.

Walter said:

On that point, I think we'd all agree: we don't enjoy reading paragraph upon paragraph of bullshit.

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Well put Walter. I think that's a pretty good representation of the board's general attitude re: these types of "critical analysis" posts.

QuestionMark said:

Well put Walter. I think that's a pretty good representation of the board's general attitude re: these types of "critical analysis" posts.

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Yeah since the analysis going on here is so "critical"

"Could be symbolic due to the concept of greek mythology of who defies the gods (GODHAND in berserk) who were known as the titans (which there were six of them could be a relation to the six members of guts’ band), "

Hi Skorne, welcome to SK.net!

Please allow me to comment on some of what you said:

Skorne said:

the demon dog internal spirit

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Name's the Beast of Darkness, and our current understanding of it is that it's not a spirit in itself but the personification of a part of Guts' mind.

Skorne said:

Could be symbolic due to the concept of greek mythology of who defies the gods (GODHAND in berserk) who were known as the titans (which there were six of them could be a relation to the six members of guts’ band), of these titans were the cyclops who were known for their fowl disposition being strong stubborn and abrupt of emotion. They were also synonymous for brute strength and power. Ie Guts.

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Ok, so there are many inaccuracies and hasty shortcuts here I think. First off, the Titans themselves were considered deities, and they ruled before the Olympian gods overthrew them. So they didn't really defy the gods, it's more like gods fought among themselves (and the Titans were there first). Besides, the Cyclopes actually helped Zeus and his buddies defeat the Titans. That's because Uranus (their father) had locked them up, fearing their strength. Second, there were actually 12 Titans at first, 6 males and 6 females. Then that number grew. Third, there are more than 6 members in Guts' group (but not twelve ;)). Fourth, I'm not sure the God Hand can really be compared to the ones of Greek mythology, considering how different the 2 conceptions are. Fifth, the Cyclopes had an eye on the forehead, whereas Guts just lost an eye at some point in the story. They were also primordial giants, unlike Guts. Sixth, Guts isn't just a mindless brute like you you seem to be implying. Seventh, Guts isn't an artisan, while the Cyclopes were (and good at that).

So yeah, all in all I'd say the connexion is extremely tenuous here.

Skorne said:

Norse mythology odin gave one of his eyes in the search for wisdom. REF Thor comics of Ragnarok

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But Odin was a God (and not any God at that), so that contradicts what you were saying about opposing gods earlier. And he willingly sacrificed his eye in order to gain immense knowledge, how can that compare to Guts' experience? The loss of his eye makes for a cool character design but it's really more of a handicap than anything else. Losing his eye didn't procure him any advantage, and it was a battle wound anyway.

Skorne said:

Could be reference to the evil eye that is a folklore belief of envy that will result in their mythology. Envy of Guts and Griffith ultimately bestowing the dark misfortune in their lives.

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Wow. I'm sorry man but that one is really far-fetched. The "evil eye" has nothing to do with losing an eye, by the common definition it's just a look that is believed to have the power of inflicting harm by some magical or fascinating influence. Honestly I don't see how it's related at all.

Skorne said:

Chinese mythology representing the Jian which is a mystical bird with one eye and one wing. Usually in pairs representing husband and wife. Being that casca is now an “innocent” which could be interpretated as she has acquired guts’ loss of innocence so soon and the overall need for each other. For one can’t exist without the other.

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Uhh, I'm not even sure what you mean here. Casca has two eyes, so she can't be a Jian, right? And what do these birds do, aside from being mythical creatures? What's the connexion between Guts and a bird? And what about the fact Guts left Casca alone for over 2 years?

On a side note, I'd like to point out that in all the cases you cited, it's never the right eye missing specifically, but rather one-eyed creatures that don't miss any eye because they were born like that, a magical gaze that doesn't imply the loss of an eye, or in the case of Odin, either of the two eyes.

Skorne said:

Shadow; I feel the demon dog is based upon the Jungian philosophy regarding the shadow itself. In Jungian philosophy the shadow in dream analysis and is part of the unconscious mind consisting of repressed weaknesses, shortcomings, and instincts. Which is the conversations Guts has with his inner beast.

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Actually, the Jungian shadow more simply describes the repressed and/or suppressed aspects of the conscious self. It's not necessarily bad or good, just the repressed aspects of someone's personality. Anyway, there are indeed some easily noticeable similarities between the concept and the Berserk character so I think you guessed right on that one. Of course there are also ways in which they differ, but it can still be said that there's an influence IMHO. I'm pretty sure this was discussed before too, so feeling free to search the board for older threads on the subject if you're interested.

Skorne said:

The unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the persona, or outer aspect of the personality known as an anima

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I don't think that's possible at all, sorry. It's pretty much invalidated by what's shown in the story regarding Guts' relationship with the Beast. It's not just his unconscious.

Skorne said:

since it is a spectral being could be related to a nocturnal specter and has been regarded as a portent of death.

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The Beast of Darkness isn't a spectral being.

Skorne said:

Which is noted by the SK stating that Guts is constantly escaping death due to him being born unto/into death making him able to do so and is also a sign of death in European mythology.

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What SK says then has absolutely no relation to the Beast of Darkness, which hadn't manifested itself yet. He just meant that by having lived close to death all his life, he was the one most suited to avoid it. He's not saying he was really born "into/unto" death, and overall I don't think it's really connected to what you're saying.

Skorne said:

Which also Denotes the timeframe and assumed area of Guts’ world of medieval Europe ie Cerberus and scavaging habits of dogs and it’s survival instincts

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Guts lives in a universe different from ours and I don't think what you're saying here makes much sense at all.

Skorne said:

Why his right eye and not his left *outside of artistic choice or being for arrangement for the way manga is printed*.

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I don't think it's necessarily got all that much to do with the way the manga is printed, though I guess it could have played a part. However you should also realize that it's possible Miura just chose the right eye because he wanted to make Guts right-handed and preferred to spread the eye/arm loss on the two sides of his body for artistical reasons. Honestly I wouldn't look too deep into it if I were you.

Skorne said:

And i've kinda caught wind on this site about his eye opening again when he is in battle.

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Nope, it has never happened.

QuestionMark said:

I agree with the other poster that I doubt Miura had some of these specific mythic concepts in mind

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"I agree that you're wrong, but don't listen to the guys I'm agreeing with thing because they're narrow-minded and ignorant!"

QuestionMark said:

Most people don't seem to get the idea that you're supposed to be able to apply Jungian psychology to things when you deconstruct them regardless of whether that artist intended to use that influence, because the references are such a deeply set part of the human subconscious. It's the same for Marxist readings of text or Freudian readings-- it doesn't matter if the artist lived before Marx or Freud or Jung were born, or if the artist ever read them or not.

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Actually most people really do get it, no need to be a pretentious college-dropout archetypical character like yourself for that. It's just that the fact you can apply it to everything regardless of what you're applying to is greatly reduces the value of the analysis beyond its interest as a pure exercise. So consequently, when it's far-fetched like it unfortunately often is, it holds little to no interest and is treated as such. However, when the connexion established is indeed worthy of attention, it is acclaimed. It's pretty simple.

QuestionMark said:

But usually, here, you'll have a hard time with the regulars.

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So the story behind this, Skorne, is that QuestionMark posted some stuff long ago that didn't really impress people around here and that obviously hurt him a lot and made him bitter. I remember that he was quite insulting to another member the last time, too. So he hadn't posted in over a year, and now he's trying his best to be a provocative smartass in an effort to stroke his ego and regain some self-respect. He probably thinks he knows better than all of us put together and that his weak sarcasm can protect him from critics. An example not to follow, obviously.

Skorne said:

And who says Guts isn't raising Sheep?

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Well, the whole manga says so... Maybe you shouldn't focus on the symbolism so much if you miss stuff like that.

QuestionMark said:

Hahaha-- I didn't think there was anything particularly passive about it. Seemed pretty direct and to the point to me. Definitely intended it. Sorry if I wasn't more direct.

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Nah, I confirm that it was rather cowardly. Under the guise of warning a newcomer about the evils of this place, you criticize people for their rejection of your own past theories. I guess the one you should feel sorry for is yourself in the present case, as this attitude doesn't make you come across in a favorable way.

QuestionMark said:

Well put Walter. I think that's a pretty good representation of the board's general attitude re: these types of "critical analysis" posts.

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Would you mind typing full sentences?

Use something better Aaz like... "dastardly" or something like that. Come on. Oh, and the one about the full sentences was a pretty good one.

Aazealh, very well said. I've personally only made it to book twenty in the manga, and know a bit more due to online research. Besides like i mentioned, i thought they were interesting thoughts. Plain and simple, nothing more nothing less, simply speculation from some possible sources of inspiration.

Oh and gentlemen (which i am assuming to be most of the individuals posting) relax a little, lol. really. Some of you need to lighten up.

QuestionMark said:

Use something better Aaz like... "dastardly" or something like that. Come on. Oh, and the one about the full sentences was a pretty good one.

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No, I like what I used, but thanks for the suggestion. And I hope you will really use full sentences now, that'd be great! :)

Skorne said:

Aazealh, very well said. I've personally only made it to book twenty in the manga, and know a bit more due to online research. Besides like i mentioned, i thought they were interesting thoughts. Plain and simple, nothing more nothing less, simply speculation from some possible sources of inspiration.

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Ahhh, volume 20, I see. You still have a whole fantastic arc ahead of you (and your perception of many things will surely change after reading it)! And yeah, no problem about the thread man, don't worry. Speculation Nation is the right place for discussing these things, and even if a lot of stuff among what is posted here in general can seem implausible, it doesn't hurt to submit it to others anyway. All we ask our members is to seriously think about what they post before doing so, and to accept the fact that their theories are likely to be challenged. Like you've seen, some people take themselves are their ideas far too seriously, and that generally isn't good.

Aazealh said:

Ahhh, volume 20, I see. You still have a whole fantastic arc ahead of you (and your perception of many things will surely change after reading it)! And yeah, no problem about the thread man, don't worry. Speculation Nation is the right place for discussing these things, and even if a lot of stuff among what is posted here in general can seem implausible, it doesn't hurt to submit it to others anyway. All we ask our members is to seriously think about what they post before doing so, and to accept the fact that their theories are likely to be challenged. Like you've seen, some people take themselves are their ideas far too seriously, and that generally isn't good.

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yeah, Vol 20 was relatively recently released here in the US. And Vol 21 is not due for english release till 23 Jan 2008. So yeah, i got a lot of waiting to do. And really, i don't want to get to far ahead of myself and then be *relatively* let down. You know the feeling, when you just know you know too much. Though highly doubtful.

Skorne said:

yeah, Vol 20 was relatively recently released here in the US. And Vol 21 is not due for english release till 23 Jan 2008. So yeah, i got a lot of waiting to do. And really, i don't want to get to far ahead of myself and then be *relatively* let down. You know the feeling, when you just know you know too much. Though highly doubtful.

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Well, I can understand the desire to discover everything without having any knowledge of what you'll find. It's really an awesome feeling. This thread was made for that purpose (no spoilers allowed), so if you want to discuss things up to the US releases, go for it!

Aazealh said:

Well, I can understand the desire to discover everything without having any knowledge of what you'll find. It's really an awesome feeling. This thread was made for that purpose (no spoilers allowed), so if you want to discuss things up to the US releases, go for it!

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Thank you.