Author Topic: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters  (Read 21079 times)

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Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2007, 06:35:51 AM »
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Well, if you'll notice, we're currently in the middle of a pretty informative back and forth exchange on the subject.  Even CnC has posted some concrete thoughts on the subject....you're the only one that hasn't.

Try to stick to the topic. 

Eh, the factual reasons for why your opinion is wrong, based on the evidence in the manga, has been stated repeatedly and at length; there's no need for me to repeat them.

And again, in a conversation about emotional changes in character and characterization, logic has nothing to do with it.

Nobody's trying to prove anything here; you asked for proof of character complexity, and the reasons for character change and development - it was given. Your refusal of that evidence doesn't change its existance or factual nature. Specific events happened, to specific characters, at specific times in the manga - and based on their characters, they changed in believable and predictable ways.

I think at this point it would help is all if we maybe clarified what's trying to be shown here in simple point-form. Starting to get a little sidetracked, and I know for my own comprehension, RedDevilFC, I really do want to understand what you're trying to ask, so that we can more accuratly help you understand the character development you seem to have missed.  :daiba:

The evidence and proof is stated very clearly in the manga, and even more clearly by previous posters. That... I don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore, other than that you're emotaionally attached to your idea in the face of overwhelming opposing evidence. That's not logical!  :schierke:

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2007, 06:37:23 AM »
See, I just don't see it as being this dramatic and over the top.  I know the manga made it out that way, but why, oh WHY do the events of Albion affect not only her religious leanings, but her character too? 

After all, her horrible personality is a product of poor, permissive parenting.  It has nothing to do with her world view. 

It's not just her father, although he does have quite a bit to do with it.  It's her constant infatuation with wanting to get attention with everyone, such as when she participated in burning people at the stake when she was still a child, her aealotry as the commander of the H.I.C.K.s.  Her world view was "if I do these things, if I act the way I do, father and everyone else will recognize me and give me credit!".  So yes, it has everything to do with her world view.  Like a real person, what one believes and perceives shapes their personality.

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Just makes no sense if we take Serpico as a human, believable character.  Again, I have a lot of personal experience with friends who remind me of a Serpico with a girl of theirs; it's just that the infatuation doesn't last from eight years old to 18-20, and the guys are nowhere near as capable and intelligent as Serpico is said to be. 

Notwhithstanding Serpico's severe traumas, Farnese certainly had an affect on him, such as all the multiple times he was whipped for taking it easy on the numerous opponents he faced.  He realized Farnese's feelings for him were more than mere master-servant, yet he couldn't respond in kind because of their relation.  As he states many time in the Volume 22 flashback (and also what Farnese's mother alludes to later on), their mutual feelings and conflicts are twisted in a weird sort of way, and because both are so deeply scarred since they were children (don't forget, he probably sees much of his own mother, who basically dominated his life, in Farnese as well) they end up meshing very well (until Guts comes into the picture, anyway). 

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Well, here's the thing; there are half a dozen people who disagree with me in this topic, many of who have probably argued the finer points of the Berserk manga to death for YEARS, and no one agrees with my view. 

This is also my first time putting my thoughts about the series to paper.  Taking this into account, I would expect you guys to OVERWHELM me with reasons for why I'm wrong. 

So far, I haven't seen it.  In fact, I'm more secure than ever that I'm at least partially correct. 

Now, you could respond that this is arrogance on my part, and that I can't admit to being wrong, but that's not the case; I'm more than willing to admit when someone proves me wrong in a logical debate.  (Granted, there aren't any such examples on this forum....yet!)

You have been overwhelmed, it's just that many of our facts don't seem to be very significant (case in point, that Farnese's world view being shattered wouldn't change her personality, etc.) to you.  I'm astonished that you can see there's a half-dozen people disagreeing with you, yet can't see the arguments people such as Walter and I have been putting forward?  The responses you gave never fully responded to the points given, although I hope you don't take this as me being picky or anything.  It's just getting too damn hard to scroll now with these long posts. :guts:

-Edit- Whoop, new page, let's how long it takes to get it to epic proportions.  :chomp:
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Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2007, 06:45:13 AM »
I am a goddamn idiot and failure.

Your new avatar and motto, perhaps?  :ganishka:
I'm sick of following my dreams.  I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later...
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Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2007, 06:47:03 AM »
^Dude, you're really not helping the discussion.  I thought you were the one to tell me to drop it?  :schierke:
I'm just a poor, wayfaring stranger.......just moving along to the next habitation of demons.....

Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2007, 06:48:04 AM »
Now now, keep it civil, this is the most interesting and fun thread I've watched in weeks.  :chomp:

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2007, 06:48:56 AM »
^Dude, you're really not helping the discussion.  I thought you were the one to tell me to drop it?  :schierke:

His words, not mine.  I'm just finally agreeing with him.
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Offline Oburi

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2007, 06:50:19 AM »
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You have been overwhelmed, it's just that many of our facts don't seem to be very significant (case in point, that Farnese's world view being shattered wouldn't change her personality, etc.) to you.  I'm astonished that you can see there's a half-dozen people disagreeing with you, yet can't see the arguments people such as Walter and I have been putting forward?  The responses you gave never fully responded to the points given, although I hope you don't take this as me being picky or anything.  It's just getting too damn hard to scroll now with these long posts.

-Edit- Whoop, new page, let's how long it takes to get it to epic proportions. 


Lol. Jeez this thread turned into a book in about 4 1/2 hours. This is sad. I don't want to just jump on the wagon with the "good guys" and start arguing with Reddevil, but he's clearly not getting it. This should end. Dammit where the hell is Aaz?

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2007, 06:51:44 AM »
It's really simple to explain actually, and it's all about her CONVICTION. That word being not-so-coincidentally the title of the entire series arc from volume 14-21, right from the beginning of Farnese's introduction to her choice to follow Guts. Pretty suspicious timing, wouldn't you say?  :serpico:

I never made the connection before reading this post, Wally. :griff:  Maybe I need to reread the manga. :judo:

Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2007, 06:55:25 AM »
I never made the connection before reading this post, Wally. :griff:  Maybe I need to reread the manga. :judo:

Never a waste! Berserk is one of the few manga I can reread at leasure and not be bored with it, and have a good chace at noticing something I hadn't earlier as well.

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2007, 06:55:41 AM »
I guess if you want to understand Farnese and Serpico, you have to look at the very basic parts of their personality. Serpico, despite his posturing as a care-free person, is almost emotionally dead. In order to fill this emptiness in himself he latches onto Farnese, a girl who is dangerously full of emotion. Even in more recent episodes who can see how intensely passionate she is, especially in her interactions with Schierke. So, really, Serpico is anything but independent and a lot of the other things you used to describe him. He NEEDS (or at least thinks he needs) Farnese. She's the only thing that gives his life meaning, before she found him he was ready to give up and die in the snow, and he will fight and die to protect that.

Which is why he hated Guts. Not only did Farnese want him dead in the beginning, her changing threatened what Serpico had attached himself to. He didn't want to lose the powerful personality that she is. He even says that he can't allow her to change. Without her emotion, he is empty. It doesn't matter how skilled or intelligent or resourceful he is, they're only tools to protect what is precious to him.

This is a really good post and I agree with what you wrote.  There's just one problem; if Serpico was "emotionally dead" since the age of 8, then how the hell does he become so intelligent, capable, and powerful? 

That's my ENTIRE issue here, and something no one has really been able to resolve to my liking.   

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Farnese's reason for changing is pretty evident. She's a very emotional person and, therefore, reacted in a very emotional way to Guts. Everything about him challenged what she had based her life upon. Yes, there was the whole supernatural event that was the Mirror Eclipse, but, as you noticed, it affected her in a much different way than it did everyone else at Albion. Farnese is so emotionally fragile that it probably impacted her far more deeply than most others.  For some at Albion, in a twisted way it was a confirmation of their beliefs. But for Farnese, because of Guts' presence, she saw that there was much more to the events than the obvious and it scared the shit out of her. And through it all she saw that none of this challenged Guts' perceptions of the world. She wants to know why. End of the obvious.

Again, Farnese's despicable personality comes from poor, permissive parenting, not just religious hysteria.  Even if we conclude that the events at Albion change the latter, the former is completely unresolved. 

In other words, she should still be a bitch, even if she no longer believes in the Catholic Church. 

Quote from: Bekul
Post

Considering the mountain of responses this thread has generated, I'll skip over yours, which doesn't bring up any arguments, but petulantly claims that "everything has been proved already!" or "a lot of people disagree with you, so you must be wrong by sheer numbers!"

I guess that's a step up from claiming I've never even read the manga, but you're the only person who has failed to bring up a single logical point about the focus. 

Again, either stick to the topic, or just read what others write, since you seem to side with the majority anyways. 

Quote from: yota
It's not just her father, although he does have quite a bit to do with it.  It's her constant infatuation with wanting to get attention with everyone, such as when she participated in burning people at the stake when she was still a child, her aealotry as the commander of the H.I.C.K.s.  Her world view was "if I do these things, if I act the way I do, father and everyone else will recognize me and give me credit!".  So yes, it has everything to do with her world view.  Like a real person, what one believes and perceives shapes their personality.

Alright, I can accept that.  But why don't those Daddy issues transfer to wanting Guts's attention while continuing to act like a bitch?  I've known girls in my life with Daddy issues, too.  They don't stop acting like spoiled brats when that affection is changed to some guy. 

Quote from: yota
Notwhithstanding Serpico's severe traumas, Farnese certainly had an affect on him, such as all the multiple times he was whipped for taking it easy on the numerous opponents he faced.  He realized Farnese's feelings for him were more than mere master-servant, yet he couldn't respond in kind because of their relation.  As he states many time in the Volume 22 flashback (and also what Farnese's mother alludes to later on), their mutual feelings and conflicts are twisted in a weird sort of way, and because both are so deeply scarred since they were children (don't forget, he probably sees much of his own mother, who basically dominated his life, in Farnese as well).

Which is exactly why he should have grown up to be a weak, pathetic, incompetent shell of a man. 

However, he's the exact opposite. 

Quote from: yota
You have been overwhelmed, it's just that many of our facts don't seem to be very significant (case in point, that Farnese's world view being shattered wouldn't change her personality, etc.) to you.  I'm astonished that you can see there's a half-dozen people disagreeing with you, yet can't see the arguments people such as Walter and I have been putting forward?  The responses you gave never fully responded to the points given, although I hope you don't take this as me being picky or anything.  It's just getting too damn hard to scroll now with these long posts. Guts

I've read your arguments, and considered them well, it's just that you guys seem to either miss what I have a problem with (as with Serpico), or give way too much weight to other things.  (as with Farnese)

And it's funny you mention being overwhelmed; I've often changed deeply-held positions on SERIOUS political and ethical issues (not just some manga characters) because of a few sentences. 

The sentences just have to be the right ones. 

Offline Rhombaad

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2007, 06:56:33 AM »
Never a waste! Berserk is one of the few manga I can reread at leasure and not be bored with it, and have a good chace at noticing something I hadn't earlier as well.

Yup, it's certainly not a punishment to reread it. :guts:  Now, back to the discussion! :chomp:

Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2007, 07:07:00 AM »
Eh, since I've got stuff to do, I'll just go with this:

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There's just one problem; if Serpico was "emotionally dead" since the age of 8, then how the hell does he become so intelligent, capable, and powerful?

In a word: survival. You don't need emotions to be intelligent, capable, and powerful. Indeed, with what he faced, supressing his emotions allowed him to survive and become strong. He intentionally supressed his emotions so that he could survive, as shown in the manga many times, most notably at his mothers death. That... is that enough? I could go on, but I get the impression you'll simply dismiss that out of hand.

*shrug*

Everything else you've accused me of is simply untrue.

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2007, 07:10:39 AM »
Quote from: CnC
Really sad attempt at flaming and derailing the thread

Doesn't it tell you anything that despite having 2,500+ posts on here and being around since August of 2001, and me having only become a member twelve hours ago, the other posters are telling you that you're out of line?

Would you get banned if you were a new poster pulling the same stunt?  Just wondering?

Quote from: Bekel
In a word: survival. You don't need emotions to be intelligent, capable, and powerful. Indeed, with what he faced, supressing his emotions allowed him to survive and become strong. He intentionally supressed his emotions so that he could survive, as shown in the manga many times, most notably at his mothers death. That... is that enough? I could go on, but I get the impression you'll simply dismiss that out of hand.

So you're saying that suppressing his emotions, and being a slavish zombie to Farnese makes him strong and intelligent? 

In my experience, every single strong and intelligent person I've known has always been extremely independent and tough on their own.  Not a single one has been codependent and dominated like Serpico.

Or, at the very least, since he must have attained his skills and strength after being taken in as a noble, he developed them at the same time as he was blindly obedient to Farnese.  That just doesn't happen; such personal growth and ability doesn't come with the lifestyle he lived. 

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2007, 07:12:31 AM »
Alright, I can accept that.  But why don't those Daddy issues transfer to wanting Guts's attention while continuing to act like a bitch?  I've known girls in my life with Daddy issues, too.  They don't stop acting like spoiled brats when that affection is changed to some guy. 

Like I said, her world view, i.e. her wanting to get attention and such, was shattered.  Perhaps she sought him as a replacement at first, but that soon changed when she realized she was just as useless and pathetic as she was before.  Only now she is given a responsibility, something she never really had before (one could argue her being a commander as being a responsibility, but she was never truly anything more than a figurehead, since that position was traditionally headed by women).  The actual weight of a person's life in her hands, someone who was actually even more helpless and useless than her, gave her character something to grow on.  She could no longer self-centered in this new role, but must actually care and nurture someone else (and this, in retrospect, can be seen as Casca nurturing Farnese's growth).

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Which is exactly why he should have grown up to be a weak, pathetic, incompetent shell of a man. 

However, he's the exact opposite.

Ah, I think I see the thrust of your argument here.  Now why didn't he?  Perhaps if he lived with his mother for the rest of his life he would've become a "weak, pathetic, incompetent shell of a man".  However, his encounter with Farnese gave him a release from his mother's overbearing (and frankly creepy) dominion, while Farnese exposed him to the extremities of human lust, anger, and insanity.  Between these two extremes he had to find some kind of solace, where he wouldn't become too drawn to either human depravity or human ecstacy. 

One can also say, since he was brought up as a noble and as Farnese's personal escort, that he was trained and well-educated in order to fit in with the rest of the upper classes. 

To put it plainly, his skills and intelligence really have nothing to do with his relationship with Farnese, but his relationship with Farnese can definitely affect his better judgement.  In many situations, his emotions get the better of him (as mentioned above) not because he's just passively acting in Farnese defense, but he feels emotionally threatened by Guts. 

-Edit- To be honest, RedDevilFC, CnC's posts probably would've been deleted if Walter or Aazealh were awake.  Don't worry about them.

-Double Edit- I just noticed you answered about the noble upbringing that Serpico had.  It's not that he was doing it secretly and without Farnese's consent or anything, it was probably necessitated by her in order for her to feel that much more secure (and from her father in order for someone to keep Farnese in line).  It's really not a mutually exclusive thing, being submissive and being intelligent.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 07:22:59 AM by yota821 »
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Offline Triple Life

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2007, 07:19:55 AM »
This is a really good post and I agree with what you wrote.  There's just one problem; if Serpico was "emotionally dead" since the age of 8, then how the hell does he become so intelligent, capable, and powerful?

Well, if you really want to rationalize it, why not let it be genetic?

Or it could also be that he wants to be these things for Farnese's sake. Besides that, Farnese often put him in positions where the skills he developed were necessary. The flashback shows pretty well that she relied on him almost as much as he relies on her. And, as yota pointed out, he probably had an exceptionally good education because of the massive fortune of the Vandimion family.

Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2007, 07:24:29 AM »
Like I said, her world view, i.e. her wanting to get attention and such, was shattered.  Perhaps she sought him as a replacement at first, but that soon changed when she realized she was just as useless and pathetic as she was before.  Only now she is given a responsibility, something she never really had before (one could argue her being a commander as being a responsibility, but she was never truly anything more than a figurehead, since that position was traditionally headed by women).  The actual weight of a person's life in her hands, someone who was actually even more helpless and useless than her, gave her character something to grow on.  She could no longer self-centered in this new role, but must actually care and nurture someone else (and this, in retrospect, can be seen as Casca nurturing Farnese's growth).

Well, like everything in any fictional universe, it can be rationalized, but it's just too convenient, and too much at odds with the "real" approach taken throughout the first 20 odd volumes of the manga. 

Do you know girls with Daddy issues who are cruel and self-centered?  I bet you do.  Everyone does. 

How many of them change their entire personality around, even if they abandon their religion and/or have a near-death experience?  You're telling me that they'd change that much?  I'm trying to look at these characters as I would real human beings, not just artificial constructs. 

Quote from: yota
Ah, I think I see the thrust of your argument here.  Now why didn't he?  Perhaps if he lived with his mother for the rest of his life he would've become a "weak, pathetic, incompetent shell of a man".  However, his encounter with Farnese gave him a release from his mother's overbearing (and frankly creepy) dominion, while Farnese exposed him to the extremities of human lust, anger, and insanity.  Between these two extremes he had to find some kind of solace, where he wouldn't become too drawn to either human depravity or human ecstacy. 

One can also say, since he was brought up as a noble and as Farnese's personal escort, that he was trained and well-educated in order to fit in with the rest of the upper classes. 

His talent and ability far exceed that of the rest of the upper classes; his skills are what one would expect of a driven, self-reliant, emotionally tough individual....like Guts. 

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To put it plainly, his skills and intelligence really have nothing to do with his relationship with Farnese, but his relationship with Farnese can definitely affect his better judgement.  In many situations, his emotions get the better of him (as mentioned above) not because he's just passively acting in Farnese defense, but he feels emotionally threatened by Guts. 

Personally, I don't think you can divorce the two.  Either in the course of his growth, he realizes the negative influence Farnese has on him, or else he never attains significant growth, and continues to be her slave of sorts. 

Not both. 

Quote from: Triple Life
Or it could also be that he wants to be these things for Farnese's sake. Besides that, Farnese often put him in positions where the skills he developed were necessary. The flashback shows pretty well that she relied on him almost as much as he relies on her.

I've never known a guy so utterly pussy-whipped by a girl who was "strong" in any sense of the word. 

I think it's time for me to call it a night.  Pleasure talking with you folks.

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2007, 07:36:47 AM »
Doesn't it tell you anything that despite having 2,500+ posts on here and being around since August of 2001, and me having only become a member twelve hours ago, the other posters are telling you that you're out of line?

Much like your still-absent factual basis for creating this thread, I just found your insistence of what is logical and what isn't laughable.  As for Yota and the other new guy, I find their patience with your ideas very admirable; but I suppose in the time I generated all those posts I've grown tired of repeating myself to the new guys who guise their baseless opinion as intellectual conversation.

Would you get banned if you were a new poster pulling the same stunt?  Just wondering?

We'll see, I guess... :serpico:
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Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2007, 07:39:56 AM »
Well, like everything in any fictional universe, it can be rationalized, but it's just too convenient, and too much at odds with the "real" approach taken throughout the first 20 odd volumes of the manga. 

Do you know girls with Daddy issues who are cruel and self-centered?  I bet you do.  Everyone does. 

How many of them change their entire personality around, even if they abandon their religion and/or have a near-death experience?  You're telling me that they'd change that much?

Well, maybe you're seeing her transformation as one would flick a light switch or something, but it simply doesn't occur like that.  Her ego, her personality, and her character is first broken down and shattered by the aforementioned events, then slowly (oh so slowly and still ongoing) molded throughout many volumes.  It didn't happen overnight, it probably didn't happen in a month.  Every shape and nook that we see now in Farnese was slowly chipped and eroded from the day-to-day struggles she had with Guts and co. .  And, like waves crashing upon a rock face or a river winding its way through a canyon, yes, these things can change a person.

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His talent and ability far exceed that of the rest of the upper classes; his skills are what one would expect of a driven, self-reliant, emotionally tough individual....like Guts. 

Personally, I don't think you can divorce the two.  Either in the course of his growth, he realizes the negative influence Farnese has on him, or else he never attains significant growth, and continues to be her slave of sorts. 

Not both. 

He had quite a bit of talent, yes, sharpened by experience and his upbringing.  But his skills were no match for someone who was "driven, self-reliant, emotionally tough individual"... Guts.  If you see the dichotomy between the two, one can argue that Serpico's skills could have been vastly more powerful and incredible had he not submitted himself beneath Farnese. 

Also, Serpico long knew the "negative influence" Farnese had on him from the beginning, but he far preferred that to the life he had with his mother.  Leaving Farnese meant going back and facing his mother, something he didn't do often (he even hired a maid I think to take care of her, rather than personally look after her).  Until Guts arrived there was no other option for him, and by the time Guts did arrive, he was too dependant on Farnese to easily let her go.  And, just like Farnese above, his character was slowly molded and changed, though he resisted at first.

Now whether his skills have improved since he met Guts is hard to say (since the wind elemental equipment kind of makes it hard to judge).  Since he was still resisting when they had their 2nd showdown, one can say his true growth started there, not when Farnese made her decision.

-Edit- Ugh, it's freakin 3:00 a.m. where I am.  Need. Sleep.  :miura:
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Offline Ramen4ever

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2007, 07:49:21 AM »
featuring Pippin; the third being his sacrifice atthe Incarnation of the Femto.   

I'd Like to take this opportunity to nominate "the Incarnation of the Femto" to be the next title in the movie poster thread please!!!!

Offline Smith

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2007, 12:14:29 PM »
but he independently confronts Guts and tries to mercilessly kill him because he's worried he might make her unhappy?

Just something to take note here, worrying that Guts will make her unhappy wasn't the issue at all, she volunteered herself to follow Guts... It would be obvious to Serpico that Farnese is mentally ready for any unhappiness or disappointment...

Now the reason he tried to stop Guts at all cost during the battle at the hall of pillars, was the fact that the unstable state of Guts' armor would greatly endanger her life during the journey...
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2007, 06:38:33 PM »
Much like your still-absent factual basis for creating this thread, I just found your insistence of what is logical and what isn't laughable.

I find all your posts and entire "persona" on this board funny and moronic, the best part being that you don't even realize it yourself.  Like I said before, if this forum is your only outlet in life for showing off how cool you are, you've got a lot to learn and improve at little kid, much like your idol Farnese. 

Quote from: Smith
Just something to take note here, worrying that Guts will make her unhappy wasn't the issue at all, she volunteered herself to follow Guts... It would be obvious to Serpico that Farnese is mentally ready for any unhappiness or disappointment...

I was referring to the time he dueled him on the rock cliff. 

Quote from: yota
Post

Alright man, I see what you're saying.

That's probably the end of the issue though; I see those events as being unrealistic, whereas you (and presumably others) don't.  I enjoyed the exchange.

Offline CnC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2007, 07:19:49 PM »
I find all your posts and entire "persona" on this board funny and moronic, the best part being that you don't even realize it yourself.  Like I said before, if this forum is your only outlet in life for showing off how cool you are, you've got a lot to learn and improve at little kid, much like your idol Farnese. 

From the outset you were quick to immediately discount the rather obvious glaring holes in your reasoning because you felt the tone of what I had written was "arrogant".  Actually most of your responses towards me, Walter, Yota, and others have been overly defensive and still lacking in any real substance to back your opinion. 

You feel Farnese has remained unchanged aside from facial expression for 6 volumes?  Well that's rather easy to dispute as even her own dialogue would make her inner turmoil obvious to anyone who would read it.  But no, you gloss over that and go straight to the bit where you take offense to someone who would question your ability to read.

You think she's completely useless to everyone in the group?  Well that's rather easy to dispute as everyone has spoken of her as an asset on numerous occasions, and they actively sought to get her back in the group when she left.  But no, you gloss over that and go on a long rant about how I'm really a kid, and you could really embarrass me if you wanted to.

You think Serpico attacking Guts is completely unfounded?  Well thats rather easy to dispute as almost everything he's said and done to that point can support that action.  He's actively protected Farnese and while fighting Guts even says, "You're painful to her.  You should disappear".  But no, you gloss over every single occasion this has been pointed out to you and insist that it still makes no sense that Serpico would want to protect Farnese (using such wonderfully eloquent gems like "pussy-whipped"  :schierke: ).

I have no doubt you glossed over "all my posts" and developed a persona you thought I would fit into.  However it has been proven to me that you really aren't a very good judge of character, least of all mine.  A very simple search would reveal that I've been critical of characters and developments in the past, and have butted heads with members here for a long time. But no, once again you gloss over that bit of research when you were looking at my profile.  Your trend of skipping information, generating random opinions, and throwing temper tantrums will not serve you well on this forum.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 09:50:16 PM by CnC »
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Offline Bekul

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2007, 08:08:42 PM »
Just popping in to say that I dearly hope this isn't over, I find personalities like RedDevilFC's to be fascinating in how highly they regard their own opinions even when it's been shown that there's no substance to them - and yet they defend them. Really, its fun to watch, and I hope this continues, at least until Walter or Azaleth comes in for the final say. I'm curious to see how they'll interpret the past couple dozen posts here.

Offline yota821

Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2007, 08:59:24 PM »
Alright man, I see what you're saying.

That's probably the end of the issue though; I see those events as being unrealistic, whereas you (and presumably others) don't.  I enjoyed the exchange.

If you base your assertion that Farnese and Serpico were poor characters on the fact that the events that changed them were unrealistic, then you must also assert that every other major character was also poorly conceived, since every single one of them went through fairly "unrealistic" events.  As CnC pointed out, one can literally read the change Farnese and Serpico is going through in their internal monologues, it isn't really subtle or hidden from the reader.
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Offline RedDevilFC

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Re: Serpico and Farnese: Two Poorly Conceived Characters
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2007, 10:24:32 PM »
Just popping in to say that I dearly hope this isn't over, I find personalities like RedDevilFC's to be fascinating in how highly they regard their own opinions even when it's been shown that there's no substance to them - and yet they defend them. Really, its fun to watch, and I hope this continues, at least until Walter or Azaleth comes in for the final say. I'm curious to see how they'll interpret the past couple dozen posts here.

Have you contributed a single on-topic post to this discussion?  Looking through your posts here, it all seems like a bunch of passive aggressive, off-topic commentary about "fascinating personalities", "you haven't read the manga", or "you've clearly been proven wrong". 

There wasn't a single sentence in anything you wrote that pertained to the focus at hand.  If you can't think of something on your own, then simply don't post, troll. 

Quote from: CnC
Your trend of skipping information, generating random opinions, and throwing temper tantrums will not serve you well on this forum.

That's a pretty strong statement, but unfortunately, it's not supported by any facts, something which you seem to struggle greatly with. 

Speaking of temper tantrums, kid, I think this is a great example of that;

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=8595.msg144124#msg144124

Like I said before, I could embarrass you very easily if my goal was to insult you, but I'll let the mods handle it instead. 

Quote from: yota821
If you base your assertion that Farnese and Serpico were poor characters on the fact that the events that changed them were unrealistic, then you must also assert that every other major character was also poorly conceived, since every single one of them went through fairly "unrealistic" events.

That's not what I wrote at all.  Their changes in response to these events are what's unrealistic.  One can't really argue any further beyond that; you seem to accept these developments as reasonable, I don't. 

That's an understandable difference in opinion.  The internal monologues you mentioned are irrelevant; I never accused Miura of being lazy, so of course he'll create some quasi-justification for the characters' changes. 

He could also have changed Nina into a tough, morose character during the same arc, with some more internal monologue as justification. 

Neither development is the least bit logical or consistent though, at least for me.