Will Guts sacrifice?

Reading through the forum kinda made me think... during that popular meeting between Slan & Guts, Slan offered him the chance to sacrifice something, which of course is unheard of (at least based on all the information present in the manga so far) since Guts is branded.
Do you guys think she was merely teasing him or do you think she was serious and there is a chance that he will actually go ahead with it? It's not going to happen anytime soon mind you, but think about it. What if Guts, after a long and tough road (say 10 years from where we are now in terms of Volumes) realizes that his battle against the God Hands is futile (even if he sends Griffith back to the Nexus, wouldn't he still be the God Hand Femto again or is he already split between two different worlds?) and decides to take Slan up on her offer and sacrifices something (the difficult part is figuring out what exactly would he sacrifice, but perhaps with Skull Knight's approval, they might concoct a plan together to bring the GH down by sacrificing SK who would become sufficiently important to Guts by that time to be considered a "precious sacrifice"). Thereafter, Guts becomes one of the members of the GH and somehow manages to bring them down and then replace (or destroy?) the Idea of Evil with the Idea of Good (SK would help him out since it doesn't matter to him whether he is branded or not - he can strill travel any dimensional or wordly interstice). Now I know it's all far-fetched, but I still like the possibility, even though I'd want evil to triumph in the end personally (the current GH are awesome).

1st time this possibility occured to me was when, on the Count's evocation of the GH, Slan mentioned that Guts would be an ideally-suited addition to them, 2nd time when, on the lam from the knights of the inquisition, his doggish shape of hate/sorrow/battle carried some sort of Beherit in it's mouth and 3rd time of course during the aforementioned tryst with Slan on Qliphoth. My only real concrete question that is an addition to what I said above is what kind of Beherit were that monster and Slan thinking of if push came to shove? If it's the regular type that offers a transformation to an Apostle, then that would contradict them both since his monstrous manifestation wants Guts to act on his instincts and that would mean killing the GH first and foremost and Slan wants him to be on her team which would necessitate him to have the Egg-Behelit. So does that perhaps leave some other methods of becoming a GH, perhaps with Ganishka's help?

Thx for reading this guys. I'm Dima by the way and Berserk is my favourite manga of all time! :)

No I dont think he would. For one it would pretty much go against everything he has been doing up to that point. Slan is more than able to grant him that power but thats the thing. He would probably be serving them indirectly and he would have even less of a chance of going after Griffith since he would probably be even more overwhelmed by him (Ganishka as an example). Slann is just showing her lustful interest towards him and wants to possible have him around. Besides, we ar enow finding out that there are other forces at work here. Heck weve only learned recently about magic in volume 24 and it has been shown to be a very powerful thing. The most I can see is If Guts pretends to do as the God hand wants and right at them moment he is close to them, he stabs them with a sword out of desperation (whether all five or present or just Slann). Guts is too much of a non conformer to just sacrifice people he cares for and become the very thing he hates. So my answer is no way.


Puck.....well.....that may be another story............he sure loves the Becchi

If it goes as simple as that, then i'd be disappointed. It would be much more interesting if Guts manages to become a GH through rather clandestine means - maybe, like in Death Note, he rules as a GH under temporary amnesia, and when his memory is restored, during yet another sacrificial ceremony, instead of branding the humans (perhaps he'd have that role now?), he'd brand all of the other GH and send them to the Vortex and to the Idea of Evil (or perhaps sacrifice himself with them) - that would be much more original :)

dimasok said:

Do you guys think she was merely teasing him

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Yup, that's it. She didn't actually offer him a chance to do anything, she just asked him if he wanted to follow Griffith's example (make a sacrifice, like him). That's not the same thing. Besides, it's not like she could have made him an apostle right there and then (nor a member of the God Hand, obviously), that's not how things work. She was just cruelly teasing him in her usual fashion. That's Slan for ya!

dimasok said:

Now I know it's all far-fetched, but I still like the possibility, even though I'd want evil to triumph in the end personally (the current GH are awesome).

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Well, like you said it's really far-fetched. What you said is just never going to happen. And anyway, honestly, I'm 100% sure that Guts will never become an apostle. It'd be ludicrous.

dimasok said:

his doggish shape of hate/sorrow/battle carried some sort of Beherit in it's mouth

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I think you're referring to the specters that were forming the Beast of Darkness at the time. They're not beherits or related to them at all, but the Beast did tease Guts about sacrificing anyway.

dimasok said:

My only real concrete question that is an addition to what I said above is what kind of Beherit were that monster and Slan thinking of if push came to shove? If it's the regular type that offers a transformation to an Apostle, then that would contradict them both since his monstrous manifestation wants Guts to act on his instincts and that would mean killing the GH first and foremost and Slan wants him to be on her team which would necessitate him to have the Egg-Beherit.

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The beherit Guts carries can only make someone into an apostle. He will most likely never stumble upon a crimson beherit (or "egg of the king", but not "egg-beherit"), but anyway even if he did that would be useless. First off, there can only be a new member of the God Hand every 216 years. Second, the God Hand is already complete and doesn't need any new member. In any case, there's just no way Guts would become an apostle or a member of the God Hand, I mean that wouldn't satisfy his goals at all and that'd basically be completely against his character. Not to mention that it wouldn't make any sense on a storytelling point of view. The God Hand aren't just elected like that, they don't decide who can join the group or not, and most importantly they don't work against each other.

Anyway, Slan didn't really mean what she said in either case, and when the Beast of Darkness tempts Guts it has no weight other than showing his own dark feelings.

dimasok said:

So does that perhaps leave some other methods of becoming a GH, perhaps with Ganishka's help?

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Hahaha, no way. I doubt Guts and Ganishka will ever meet again at the rate things are going, and even though Ganishka's doing something pretty extreme and desperate to increase his power right now, that won't make him a member of the God Hand by any means. That's just not how things work. In the same way, you can't just "use" a beherit when you want to or anything, it's a lot more complicated than that. This is all detailed in the manga and there are many posts about it on the forum already, so I invite you to research it further by yourself.

dimasok said:

Thx for reading this guys. I'm Dima by the way and Berserk is my favourite manga of all time! :)

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Hi, welcome to the forum!

cajunman380 said:

Slan is more than able to grant him that power

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No, Slan can't just snap her fingers and make people into apostles. She doesn't have that sort of power, and things are really more complicated than that anyway. Causality, all that, you know?

dimasok said:

If it goes as simple as that, then i'd be disappointed. It would be much more interesting if Guts manages to become a GH through rather clandestine means - maybe, like in Death Note, he rules as a GH under temporary amnesia, and when his memory is restored, during yet another sacrificial ceremony, instead of branding the humans (perhaps he'd have that role now?), he'd brand all of the other GH and send them to the Vortex and to the Idea of Evil (or perhaps sacrifice himself with them) - that would be much more original :)

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Well, I don't want to sound harsh, but that's really completely misunderstanding the way all those things work in Berserk. You can't become a member of the God Hand through "clandestine" means, how could it be? If you know about the Idea of Evil then you should know it's just not possible. And amnesia? Branding the God Hand? That's just ridiculous.

Thanks for a very thorough answer!
One thing you are yet to answer though is about the Idea of Evil - can it be changed to the Idea of Good? That at least makes sense, you have to admit it :)

Idea of Evil becoming Evil of good?


Do you even think its possible at all?

dimasok said:

Thanks for a very thorough answer!
One thing you are yet to answer though is about the Idea of Evil - can it be changed to the Idea of Good? That at least makes sense, you have to admit it :)

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Anybody who wants to correct me go right ahead. But,...

the idea of evil as i have gathered is that there is no 'true good'. all the world is evil. it's core is evil because mankind is evil. And being 'good' is in direct conflict with the natural world of berserk. so no...the idea cannot be changed. unless everything dies i guess.

Smith said:

Idea of Evil becoming Evil of good?


Do you even think its possible at all?

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I think it's all the same, right? Some may see the Idea of good, others the Idea of evil. In the end he's actually the Idea of God, the Idea of a desired God. At least that's what I understand. Aaz?

the idea of evil as i have gathered is that there is no 'true good'. all the world is evil. it's core is evil because mankind is evil.

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Do we know there is no true good? or have we just not heard anything about it?

dimasok said:

Thanks for a very thorough answer!

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No problem! :)

dimasok said:

One thing you are yet to answer though is about the Idea of Evil - can it be changed to the Idea of Good? That at least makes sense, you have to admit it

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Nope. =)

It's more complicated than you think, honestly. It's not like you can flip of switch or kill such an entity, and nothing is certain about "changing" it in any way. If you're interesting in this matter I recommend you to read older threads about it, you'll find detailed posts in there that could enlighten you.

Skorne said:

Anybody who wants to correct me go right ahead. But,...

the idea of evil as i have gathered is that there is no 'true good'. all the world is evil. it's core is evil because mankind is evil. And being 'good' is in direct conflict with the natural world of berserk.

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You're completely wrong, sorry. In short, the Idea of Evil is the embodiment of mankind's dark side. That doesn't mean there's no good in the world, or that there's no good in mankind. And it's an "idea" in the Platonic sense, but one that has apparently developed a consciousness and will of its own.

Oburi said:

I think it's all the same, right? Some may see the Idea of good, others the Idea of evil. In the end he's actually the Idea of God, the Idea of a desired God. At least that's what I understand. Aaz?

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This is so incorrect that it's almost insulting. No but seriously, guys, there are many posts on the board that talk about the Idea of Evil in details, please search for and read them. Or at least read the lost episode carefully, come on. Idea of God? What are you talking about? It's the Idea of Evil and evil only, not whatever people want to see in it. I don't know where you got that idea (har har). But it's true It's a desired God.

Nope. =)

It's more complicated than you think, honestly. It's not like you can flip of switch or kill such an entity, and nothing is certain about "changing" it in any way. If you're interesting in this matter I recommend you to read older threads about it, you'll find detailed posts in there that could enlighten you.

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I read the Lost Chapter lots of times and admittedly, I find it to be one of the most fascinating thought-triggers i've ever laid my eyes on (more so than the creation of the world) :)
The gist of that revelation though is that human beings are inherently evil and that that evil (in an infinity of guises) coupled with the absence of any well-defined answers to the questions that transcend our knowledge is what brought the Idea of Evil into existence (out of nowhere? kinda remains me of our own universe :)
But what if the essence of humankind changes? What if it changes drastically enough that the IOE will no longer be able to weave ther destinies through the Law of Casuality? Or is it too late for that now?

dimasok said:

I read the Lost Chapter

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Lost episode, you mean.

dimasok said:

The gist of that revelation though is that human beings are inherently evil

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Nah. There is good in mankind, just like there is evil. The Idea of Evil was born from the dark side (meaning there is a good side) of the ocean that represents humanity's collective consciousness, because it's the dark emotions (despair, sadness, pain, fear, etc) that prompted people to seek reasons. Basically, they couldn't accept that bad stuff happened arbitrarily, so they desired reasons for it, and a God was born to provide those reasons. You can't just say that mankind is inherenty evil, at most it could be said that the evil side is likely the dominant one at that point in time.

dimasok said:

But what if the essence of humankind changes? What if it changes drastically enough that the IOE will no longer be able to weave ther destinies through the Law of Casuality? Or is it too late for that now?

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Well first off, as I just said it's not about the "essence" of mankind. Mankind isn't evil in essence, there's just a lot of dark feelings involved (but also good feelings). Second, it's not like you could ask everybody in the world to be happy, and it'd change things instantly and profoundly. "Dark feelings" will always be there in the back of people's heads, and are not limited to people dying in wars or women being raped. Think wide (greed, envy, sloth, gluttony, fear, anger, but also sorrow, etc). Lastly, like you said, in no way can we be sure that if the dominance of "evil" over "good" on the ideal level was overturned, it would incapacitate the Idea of Evil or change its goals. And given its nature, I doubt it could lose the ability to manipulate the laws of causality, that's kind of what it exists for.

Anyway, things are really more complicated than what we're saying here, it's not like we even know all that much about how things work down there in the first place. We know practically nothing and have mostly just been guessing stuff, basing ourselves on a part of the manga that was removed from it and that might not be a reliable source of information anymore.

Aazealh said:

This is so incorrect that it's almost insulting. No but seriously, guys, there are many posts on the board that talk about the Idea of Evil in details, please search for and read them. Or at least read the lost episode carefully, come on. Idea of God? What are you talking about? It's the Idea of Evil and evil only, not whatever people want to see in it. I don't know where you got that idea (har har). But it's true It's a desired God.

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I can't even understand this. Do you even run a spellcheck? carafully? What is that? Come on Aazealh, at least spell correctly so I can understand you. Don't let it happen again.

No but seriously, I apologize

Oburi said:

I can't even understand this. Do you even run a spellcheck? carafully? What is that? Come on Aazealh, at least spell correctly so I can understand you. Don't let it happen again.

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What do you mean? Was there an error in my post? I cannot seem to see any.

Aazealh said:

What do you mean? Was there an error in my post? I cannot seem to see any.

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Insert- :Farnese emoticon:

Aazealh said:

No problem! :)

Nope. =)

It's more complicated than you think, honestly. It's not like you can flip of switch or kill such an entity, and nothing is certain about "changing" it in any way. If you're interesting in this matter I recommend you to read older threads about it, you'll find detailed posts in there that could enlighten you.

You're completely wrong, sorry. In short, the Idea of Evil is the embodiment of mankind's dark side. That doesn't mean there's no good in the world, or that there's no good in mankind. And it's an "idea" in the Platonic sense, but one that has apparently developed a consciousness and will of its own.

This is so incorrect that it's almost insulting. No but seriously, guys, there are many posts on the board that talk about the Idea of Evil in details, please search for and read them. Or at least read the lost episode carefully, come on. Idea of God? What are you talking about? It's the Idea of Evil and evil only, not whatever people want to see in it. I don't know where you got that idea (har har). But it's true It's a desired God.

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I see what you are saying Aazealh I have read a handful of them, not all of them i am sure, but that still seems to be overall 'gist' of the idea that i am grasping,...  time to re read....again.

dimasok said:

Blah Blah Blah SUDDELNY SPOILER DUHHHUUURRRRR!

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Gee' thanks for the major spoiler out of nowhere on a good series I hadn't even gotten into yet.

Anyway, Guts' will is indomitable, we've been shown that time and time again. It's not as if there is no precedent for stating that it's highly unlikely that Guts would sacrifice anyone to become an Apostle. If anything, The Beast is the biggest danger and the only entity whose influence (Besides Griffith) he has ever fallen too. Arguably, The Beast would just as soon eat the Beherit or the intended sacrifice as soon as it would consider making a sacrifice. It's just not in Guts' character.
However, I do consider that Beherit he totes around to be a wild-card. It's been speculated before that members of his party might be tempted by The God Hand through it during a crisis.

As for Idea, try thinking of the concept in terms of how selfish our Dark Side can be. It makes a frightening amount of sense when you think about it. When Man seeks external reasons for why he suffers it goes hand-in-hand with a desire to eliminate his suffering at all costs: Even if it leads to greater suffering. Rather amusing no? It's Self-Perpetuating, just like other emotions. However, keep in mind that Suffering is just one facet of Human experience, Suffering is just predominant in Berserk's World and that's the angle that Miura chose to tell the story from. Maybe we would have seen an Idea of Good at some point by now if the Manga had been called "The Adventures of Puck in Elfhelm."
Miura didn't explain the subtext of Idea poorly; however, I think that that is what you will miss if you don't look beneath the surface of what it's rather short, to the point and brutally eloquent statements indicate. Keep in mind that The Idea of Evil is self-aware. . . .