What's Griffith's plan?

Ahriman

Power!!! Unlimited Power!!!!
Ok guys, this is my first post here. So, take it easy. :???:
Since Griffth became some sort of demon, why does he still need humans? What is his purpose after all?
Maybe realize his dream (become king). Ok, this is a probable answer... But, since he is actually the "Absolute one", why he don´t simply destroy all his enemies without his army (why does he need an army?) and put humankind on his knees?
Furthermore, why he didn't kill Guts in their encounter on the hill of swords? And at last, why doesn't he reveal his true form, remaining disguised?
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Welcome to SK.net, Ahriman. I'm going to try answering your questions, but you should know that searching for information in old threads would have probably taught you most of what you wanted to know.

Ahriman said:
Since Griffth became some sort of demon, why does he still need humans? What is his purpose after all?
Maybe realize his dream (become king). Ok, this is a probable answer...

Your question is confusing. What do you mean by "needing humans"? You mean the soldiers under him, or just people in general? In any case, his purpose isn't clear at this time.

Ahriman said:
But, since he is actually the "Absolute one", why doesn't he simply destroy all his enemies without his army (why does he need an army?) and put humankind on his knees?

Why should he? Are you suggesting that he should go ahead and kill hundreds of thousands of Kushan soldiers by hand? Then put humankind on its knees one individual at a time? It doesn't make much sense. To win a war, you need an army. And to become a leader, you need subjects. In fact, even as a king, you need soldiers to enforce your rule. Doing the small work yourself is basically degrading. Even pushing the absurb to the maximum and considering it as a valid option, it would be very laborious and would take an awfully long time. What Griffith is doing right now is simply the most efficient way to achieve his goals. And why should the "Absolute One" lower himself by doing things mere mortals use servants for? Not to mention that it's preposterous as far as logistics go. He's not omnipotent.

Ahriman said:
Furthermore, why didn't he kill Guts in their encounter on the hill of swords?

Because he wants to believe that Guts is meaningless to him, so unimportant that he doesn't deserve to be cared about or taken care of. And he wants Guts to know it and live with it as well. Additionally, the remnants of the Demon Child inside him still feel for his parents, and that seemed to disturb Griffith at the time (when he moved to protect Casca without apparently thinking about it). To sum it up, everybody underestimates the danger that Guts might one day represent, including Griffith. The day they'll realize their error, it will probably be too late to do anything about it.

Ahriman said:
And at last, why doesn't he reveal his true form, remaining disguised?

What true form? Who knows what other form he might have? Besides, people were already visited in their dreams by a Hawk of Light even before his incarnation... That was quite the hint as far as revealing Griffith's true nature goes.
 

Ahriman

Power!!! Unlimited Power!!!!
Iilysium said:
One theory could be that Griffifth :griff: doesn't want to become a dictator and have his subjects and people live and obey him under fear.
Maybe, but this is a strange theory since he is some kind of demon. I dunno, but this is a possibility too.
 
A

avidwriter

Guest
Ahriman said:
Maybe, but this is a strange theory since he is some kind of demon. I dunno, but this is a possibility too.

I'd say it’s very much a possibility. He likes to be a perfectly handsome savior of the kingdom. At least that’s what you can presume. He could have easily come back (I assume) looking more like Femto and just razed the country side with his apostles and such but that wouldn't fit what he wants.
 

JetBlack

CASULTY FAN
Iilysium said:
One theory could be that Griffifth :griff: doesn't want to become a dictator and have his subjects and people live and obey him under fear.
avidwriter said:
I'd say it’s very much a possibility. He likes to be a perfectly handsome savior of the kingdom. At least that’s what you can presume. He could have easily come back (I assume) looking more like Femto and just razed the country side with his apostles and such but that wouldn't fit what he wants.

Hmm Ok that could be, but where is the evil part in all of that? Maybe all this goodness is only apparent and is really a lie and the evil part is that all people will trust Griffith (apparently good). Maybe the evil things will be several years of total war (but this seems to be not so evil). When Griffith will win there will be a new world. But how will it be? Is it possible that the world will be worst than this one? That sound to me like the true evil but... We'll see.

I don't understand the possibility that through evil powers we will see a good world, using evil to do good, a savior with evil methods... Mmm that seems a joke.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
avidwriter said:
He could have easily come back (I assume) looking more like Femto and just razed the country side with his apostles and such but that wouldn't fit what he wants.

I doubt his appearance matters much here. He came back in his old human body, that seems logical. As for razing the country with apostles, isn't it what he did anyway? I mean sure, he freed people from the Kushan, rallied some human troops under his banner and even took prisoners and incorporated them in his own army, but what won him all his battles effortlessly? The apostles (of course, his own supernatural powers must have helped a lot, too). The question here is: why would he have done things differently when it didn't really require more efforts to do it this way? He'll soon have half the world as we know it under his foot, and it feels like it all happened on its own, without any strain.

What will really matter, as repeated many times, is what will happen once it's all settled down. There are many possibilities. Maybe Griffith won't attack the rest of the world like some think, but instead all the others will feel threatened by him and will throw themselves at Midland, breaking down their armies times and times again on an unmovable wall of apostles. Or maybe Midland will be idyllic while the rest of the world sinks to chaos. Only time will tell.
 
JetBlack said:
Hmm Ok that could be, but where is the evil part in all of that? Maybe all this goodness is only apparent and is really a lie and the evil part is that all people will trust Griffith (apparently good). Maybe the evil things will be several years of total war (but this seems to be not so evil). When Griffith will win there will be a new world. But how will it be? Is it possible that the world will be worst than this one? That sound to me like the true evil but... We'll see.

I don't understand the possibility that through evil powers we will see a good world, using evil to do good, a savior with evil methods... Mmm that seems a joke.

I think that the Idea of Evil and the God Hand aren't just out to cause human suffering for generic sufferings sake. The Idea of Evil's cut speech seemed to present the idea that he was the embodiment of FATE as a whole rather than just evil alone. It's the nature of humankind's yearnings that made him into Evil with a capital E.

I think Idea is supposed to be an evil version of God versus the Devil. Control and Obedience vs. Spite and Chaos.

On a purely unsubstantiated theory basis, my idea is that Griffith's ideal world will outwardly resemble a utopia. It will be beautiful and filled with roses and shining marble. It will, however, be inwardly rotten. People will worship Griffith as a god and depend on him for everything. In that respect, Griffith represents the ultimate evil. The death of free will. Even if there's no monsters and everyone is happy, it'll be a place where nothing happens outside of Causality.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Griffith doesn't just obliterate the Kushites and declare himself a God because he can't. It's quite possible his new form is limited in the same way as the other Apostles, just less so. While Griffith is a God Hand, there's no proof that the GH isn't just as worthless to the Idea as the Apostles are to GH.

Thus, Griffith could be dancing to his tune, unaware that he's just playing a role.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
willowhugger said:
Thus, Griffith could be dancing to his tune, unaware that he's just playing a role.

He's aware of it, back during Episode 83 the Idea told him to basically to do as he wishes because whatever he is doing is part of the Idea's plan.
 
The problem with this subject of Griffiths and Ideas plan is that nothing is really clear. We don't know exactly what Griffith wants or even Idea of Evil wants. I personally don't think there is black and white, good and evil in Berserk but shades of gray. Or that the Idea of Evil and God hand are inherently evil. Idea of Evil said to Griffith that he was created by the desires in mankind's hearts. Idea of evil exists because man wanted a reason for their suffering and pain. These are just my opinions and personal speculations but I think Idea of evils true plan is to simply be the reason for the evil things that happen to mankind. That is why I think it said it desires the same as Griffith, its not that they desire the same dreams and ambitions but the fact that they desire to have them and to have a reason. Idea of Evil is not the direct cause of the pain and suffering but the reason for it, as man has desired a reason. That is probably the purpose of Causality in my mind as well to be the reason why things happened the way they have.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
EndlessSky said:
We don't know exactly what Griffith wants
Ohhh, well I think I've got a pretty good idea of it actually. He's only stated it about 5 times throughout the series. :griff:

Idea of Evil is not the direct cause of the pain and suffering but the reason for it, as man has desired a reason.
How are these things not connected? Being the reason for pain is the same as causing it. I think you're being a little apologetic for the being who even called itself the ruler of Hell.
 
How are these things not connected? Being the reason for pain is the same as causing it. I think you're being a little apologetic for the being who even called itself the ruler of Hell.

Blame Discworld for me. It's an embodiment of humanity's suffering and madness rather than a creature with "free will." It's rather ludicrous to blame a storm for destroying a house and the same way for the Idea.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
willowhugger said:
It's rather ludicrous to blame a storm for destroying a house and the same way for the Idea.

Why would it be ludicrous to blame a storm for destroying your house? IT destroyed your house. Just because it didn't have a choice coming to be doesn't mean you can't blame it for destroying your house, killing your dog and sleeping with your wife.
 
Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:
Why would it be ludicrous to blame a storm for destroying your house? IT destroyed your house. Just because it didn't have a choice coming to be doesn't mean you can't blame it for destroying your house, killing your dog and sleeping with your wife.

I guess it's more useless to blame the idea. It's a force of nature rather than a person, so being angry at it may be a human thing to do but one should probably hate Griffith but just feel the idea must be opposed.

My .02.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
willowhugger said:
I guess it's more useless to blame the idea.  It's a force of nature rather than a person,
Your storm analogy is really overly simplistic for what The Idea is. It's certainly more than a force of nature -- it's a giant beating heart with tubes tied to Hell, manipulating the world behind an astral curtain.

so being angry at it may be a human thing to do but one should probably hate Griffith but just feel the idea must be opposed. 
"Hate" does not come into play here. All I was saying is The Idea of Evil is the cause of suffering. Though it was created from humanity's negative consciousness, everything evil in the world came from its plans. It empowers Apostles and the God Hand to wreak havoc on humans.
 

Vampire_Hunter_Bob

Cats are great
willowhugger said:
I guess it's more useless to blame the idea. It's a force of nature rather than a person, so being angry at it may be a human thing to do but one should probably hate Griffith but just feel the idea must be opposed.

It's a conscious being that knows what it's doing, not a force of nature like a tornado which can't decide what it does. I can see your argument against something like a tornado or a hurricane, but it's not exactly the same thing.
 
Walter said:
Your storm analogy is really overly simplistic for what The Idea is. It's certainly more than a force of nature -- it's a giant beating heart with tubes tied to Hell, manipulating the world behind an astral curtain.

Yet, it's the product of humankind. Basically, a gigantic reflection of mankind's subconscious desire for a scapegoat.

Walter said:
"Hate" does not come into play here. All I was saying is The Idea of Evil is the cause of suffering. Though it was created from humanity's negative consciousness, everything evil in the world came from its plans. It empowers Apostles and the God Hand to wreak havoc on humans.

Well, is it the direct cause? Cause, the human desire for a God/Devil figure is what created Idea. It's doing what it was programmed to do.

Walter said:
It's a conscious being that knows what it's doing, not a force of nature like a tornado which can't decide what it does. I can see your argument against something like a tornado or a hurricane, but it's not exactly the same thing.

I don't think the Idea has free will or is alive as we think of it. It's like an IBM computer. It's been programmed by humanity's subconscious to be Evil so it is. It's like blaming Windows for crashing versus the programmers.

Even if the human desire for a monster was unintentional, the fault lies with humans.
 

Walter

Administrator
Staff member
We are totally off course at this point, and it's all my fault. EndlessSky's post wasn't wrong. I should have simply stated: "The Idea of Evil is the INdirect cause of all human suffering. The direct agent is of course whichever Apostle has been empowered to pick on a podunk town, or whichever pedophile The Idea chose to have a royal bloodline in a broken feudal society. I think we can all agree on that point. But Willow, you're trying to make The Idea of Evil out as some kind of thoughtless drone. That is not what is implied in Episode 83.

It's been programmed by humanity's subconscious to be Evil so it is.  It's like blaming Windows for crashing versus the programmers.
Well it'd actually be like if Bill Gates thought, "Hey, it'd be cool if I had a visual operating system" and then it suddenly it came to life and took over the entire industry by itself, hacked into every computer in the world and installed trojans so it could later manipulate their data. Then, when the trojan hogs resources and someone curses windows, The Operating System of Evil says: "Mission accomplished."

This is all to say, humanity did not give The Idea of Evil specific goals, as far as we know (which is very little). It took its purpose and ran with it, ultimately seizing human destiny by the throat and enslaving the race forever to dance to its song. This is the work of something much more involved in manufacturing suffering than a program.  Listen to what it says in Ep 83 -- it manipulated human lives ("by influencing the lower levels of human consciousness and merging blood with blood ... I manipulated history and created an appropriate context for you") to provide an overarching story of suffering to humanity.

Even if the human desire for a monster was unintentional, the fault lies with humans.
Wait a minute, I thought the blame should lie with Griffith?  :carcus:

willowhugger said:
being angry at it may be a human thing to do but one should probably hate Griffith but just feel the idea must be opposed.
So, when someone is shot, it's the fault of the people that bought stock in the bullet manufacturer that made bullets which were put into the gun that the shooter shot at the victim!

To continue this analogy further, The Idea controls the arms supply and is the one writing names on the bullets, then handing the loaded weapon to individuals driven desperate and power-hungry by The Idea's machinations.
 

Idea

It is truly the will that defines human nature
Walter said:
Listen to what it says in Ep 83 -- it manipulated human lives ("by influencing the lower levels of human consciousness and merging blood with blood ... I manipulated history and created an appropriate context for you") to provide an overarching story of suffering to humanity.

...

To continue this analogy further, The Idea controls the arms supply and is the one writing names on the bullets, then handing the loaded weapon to individuals driven desperate and power-hungry by The Idea's machinations.
This... This is completely unsubstantiated slander! However you got a copy of this alleged private conversation with my top client, it was undoubtedly illegal, and will therefore be INADMISSABLE in court.

I will see your human ass in front of a judge before your time is done on this plane of existence. To the "administrator" of this website, I would suggest you secure a lawyer that can traverse more than 3 layers of the world. :idea:
 
Walter said:
EndlessSky's post wasn't wrong. I should have simply stated: "The Idea of Evil is the INdirect cause of all human suffering.

Ya Walter, that is what I kinda meant. He is not the one directly causing but he is the purpose and reason behind the suffering and pain. Also another speculation of mine is that he is causing events so humans and other beings have a better understanding of his purpose. Because if you think about it not matter what happens being his will or not, Idea of Evil will still be the indirect reason or the one to take the blame because that is what he has come in existence for but it is much easier to understand his purpose if he is causing the events itself. I'm not sure if I worded this idea properly but in a nutshell my idea is that he is causing events so it is more easily understood of his role and purpose.
 
EndlessSky said:
Ya Walter, that is what I kinda meant. He is not the one directly causing but he is the purpose and reason behind the suffering and pain. Also another speculation of mine is that he is causing events so humans and other beings have a better understanding of his purpose. Because if you think about it not matter what happens being his will or not, Idea of Evil will still be the indirect reason or the one to take the blame because that is what he has come in existence for but it is much easier to understand his purpose if he is causing the events itself. I'm not sure if I worded this idea properly but in a nutshell my idea is that he is causing events so it is more easily understood of his role and purpose.

It's interesting to speculate when this happened. Because why he may be the Master of the UniverseTM now, he's also something that existed after Human Suffering came into existence since this gave spawn to him.
 
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