Something about Griffith just doesn't seem right to me

Okay, I can say that if I get flamed for asking/stating this, that I am fully aware of what might be said against me.

Now. For some reason, there is something about Griffith as a person that has never sat quite right with me. Pre-Eclipse to be more precise (mainly during the Golden Age arc). And I am not quite clear on why that is.

I have always seen Griffith as an incomplete figure, almost pathetic in a sense. Regardless of everything that he had accomplished. Maybe when comparing him to other "male" characters he lacks some stereotypically masculine attributes, but that shouldn't matter that much. Still, even now, I view him as incomplete and lacking. He as an individual seems weak and very insecure to me.

Has anyone else felt the same way about him? Or other characters in the story? Still this is how I feel. Feel free to have fun at my expense.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Skorne said:
Okay, I can say that if I get flamed for asking/stating this, that I am fully aware of what might be said against me.

There exist many threads extensively discussing what you're asking for, and I believe that a simple search could have probably answered your questions in a large part. Did you see that one coming?

Skorne said:
I have always seen Griffith as an incomplete figure, almost pathetic in a sense. Regardless of everything that he had accomplished. Maybe when comparing him to other "male" characters he lacks some stereotypically masculine attributes, but that shouldn't matter that much. Still, even now, I view him as incomplete and lacking. He as an individual seems weak and very insecure to me.

Despite his gracile looks, I don't think Griffith really lacked any major masculine feature. He was a brilliant fighter and general, and he's done more ruthless things than most stereotypical tough-guys (not in Berserk but in general). In fact, it may not seem like it to you, but I'd argue that being fucked up the ass by a gross, fat man and enduring it until the morning without saying anything is quite a feat for a man so proud and ambitious. Shows how strong his will to succeed was. He stopped at no expense. Truth be told, the problem you have with him doesn't seem to be one to me. Griffith was far from being perfect, he was a flawed individual with his own fears and doubts. Like Guts and like pretty much everybody else. This is all repeatedly stated by Casca when she tells Guts how important he is to their leader. Griffith's dream was frighteningly ambitious, something of an unequalled audacity. And the path he chose to reach it, that might have been the only possible path, required that he take some very cold, emotionless decisions. That's not an easy thing. He had regrets, he hesitated, he was hurt more than he wanted to (by his soldiers' death or by spending a night with Gennon), etc.

I don't think he was "weak" or "very insecure", but he did have weaknesses and insecurities. He just couldn't be a calculating, heartless robot at all times, even though he tried his best. He needed to be reassured, to find confidence not just in himself but elsewhere as well. I think that's very human. Anyway, Guts meant that to Griffith, he was the exceptional asset that comforted in times of incertitude. When he left, that seriously distraught him, and led him to seek to reassert his control over his life, to boost his self-confidence. He did it by spending a night with Charlotte. Honestly, it can't be said that Griffith made many mistakes. It's a twist of fate that brought him down, just like his fulgurant ascension to grandeur had been the result of careful planning. The goal was of course to lead him to sacrifice his men during the Eclipse and become Femto. If he had been flawless, this wouldn't have happened.
 

berserker88

The Raging Demon
Quite the opposite IMO, I mean he was able to give up everything for his dream not many guys have the balls in Berserk to do that. I mean having sex with a king, sacrificing everything he arguably cared about and sacrificing his soul just to be a king. I believe he is far from pathetic and honestly has more bravery than most in the Berserk universe.
 
Aazealh said:
There exist many threads extensively discussing what you're asking for, and I believe that a simple search could have probably answered your questions in a large part. Did you see that one coming?

Yeah, i've been looking, still am.

I am not denying anything you have stated, he had weaknesses and insecurities, yes it was stated by casca, it's called being 'human.'

So is there not a character who's person hits a nerve on a deeper level for you? Griffith happens to be that person for me.
Omega Tom Hanks said:
Quite the opposite IMO, I mean he was able to give up everything for his dream not many guys have the balls in Berserk to do that. I mean having sex with a king, sacrificing everything he arguably cared about and sacrificing his soul just to be a king. I believe he is far from pathetic and honestly has more bravery than most in the Berserk universe.
sounds like the selfishness of a child to me, which if i am not mistaken was addressed during the eclipse around vol 12/13.
 

berserker88

The Raging Demon
Skorne said:
Yeah, i've been looking, still am.

I am not denying anything you have stated, he had weaknesses and insecurities, yes it was stated by casca, it's called being 'human.'

So is there not a character who's person hits a nerve on a deeper level for you? Griffith happens to be that person for me.sounds like the selfishness of a child to me, which if i am not mistaken was addressed during the eclipse around vol 12/13.

Well yes selfish to put others fates in your hands. But his dream isnt selfish at all. You wouldnt say someone is selfish for wanting to be president of the U.S.A. He wanted to be king no matter what. Determination is a better word.
 
Omega Tom Hanks said:
Well yes selfish to put others fates in your hands. But his dream isnt selfish at all. You wouldnt say someone is selfish for wanting to be president of the U.S.A. He wanted to be king no matter what. Determination is a better word.

I agree with that without hesitation.
 

SilverSpider

The hand behind the quill
If I may, - and this is at the risk of being flamed by Griffith lovers - I think this has already been used regarding Griffith, but the man literally lives by Nietzsche's philosophy or rather the Nazi version of it. He even states the idea to Guts once at some point in the Golden Age that he not only believes he should be king, but believes that some people are just naturally better than others and are thus destined to rule despite birth status. Now determination is one word to use, but I have a few less... diplomatic ones to call him.

That being said, I recently gave the anime to a friend of mine to watch and he immediately asked me if there was something wrong with Griffith. He's never read the manga or watched the anime before, but something about Griffith's demeanor unsettled him right away. I think some of us - and I'm definitely in that category of people - are also suspicious of people with too much charisma, because lets face it, those kinds of people can get away with anything.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Omega Tom Hanks said:
sacrificing his soul just to be a king.

Griffith didn't sacrifice his soul.

Skorne said:
So is there not a character who's person hits a nerve on a deeper level for you? Griffith happens to be that person for me.

What do you mean? I'm not even sure what problem you have with Griffith's character, and apparently neither are you.

Skorne said:
sounds like the selfishness of a child to me, which if i am not mistaken was addressed during the eclipse around vol 12/13.

You're mistaken. It's selfish, but I don't see how it's supposed to be child-like at all. It's like not he refused to lend a toy to a friend. The fact he appears as a child in some scenes in volume 12 doesn't mean he's puerile.

Omega Tom Hanks said:
Well yes selfish to put others fates in your hands. But his dream isnt selfish at all. You wouldnt say someone is selfish for wanting to be president of the U.S.A. He wanted to be king no matter what. Determination is a better word.

His dream isn't selfish? Are you kidding? Of course it is. The will to sacrifice everything to his ambition, regardless of other people? That's pretty selfish. He even says so himself in the manga, that a dream is something you do for yourself and not for others.

SilverSpider said:
I think this has already been used regarding Griffith, but the man literally lives by Nietzsche's philosophy or rather the Nazi version of it. He even states the idea to Guts once at some point in the Golden Age that he not only believes he should be king, but believes that some people are just naturally better than others and are thus destined to rule despite birth status.

I'm sorry but you're distorting things quite a bit here. First off, at that time he doesn't say he should (or even want to) be king, he just reflects on people's place in the world. Second, he doesn't state that some people are naturally better than others and therefore destined to rule either. He just says that some individuals are born as keys that set the world in motion, that move it, and that this isn't connected to the social hierarchy established by men. Rather it's a divine rule, and these special people are chosen by God (which is true in the Berserk world). They're not simply living their lives as it comes until they die, entrusting themselves to the stream of fate. Griffith wants to know why he's in the world, what his place is, what his role is. He doesn't want to just endure things as they happen, but rather to take his life into his own hands and try to achieve greatness. That's got nothing to do with nazi ideology. And don't forget that this dialogue takes place during Guts' first encounter with the God Hand in the manga. You have to think of it in relation to them (and Femto in particular).

Omega Tom Hanks said:
Arent you picky? Sorry. "Rich Commander"

Well it does make a pretty big difference.
 

SilverSpider

The hand behind the quill
Sorry, but I don't think it's that long of a jump from him stating that some people are meant to rule despite class status (a very Nietzschean idea like I said) and his statement that he will be king. He clearly always thought he's part of this special group of people. And both of those conversations took place way before the Godhand were at all involved. He told Guts about his dream that time during the waterfight in the court yard and the second statement about the natural rulers was made after some minor skirmish, also to Guts and also during the Golden Age. So he can't claim Godhand influence.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
SilverSpider said:
Sorry, but I don't think it's that long of a jump from him stating that some people are meant to rule despite class status

He doesn't say people are meant to rule despite class status. See my previous post.

SilverSpider said:
his statement that he will be king

He doesn't state it in that particular scene though.

SilverSpider said:
And both of those conversations took place way before the Godhand were at all involved. [...] the second statement about the natural rulers was made after some minor skirmish, also to Guts and also during the Golden Age.

That conversation takes place in a flashback in volume 3 (during the Black Swordsman arc), after Femto knocks Guts down. It's obviously meant to be related to what Griffith has become from a storytelling point of view. And I wouldn't say it takes place after a minor skirmish given the amount of bodies depicted in the scene, it seems more like the aftermath of a big battle.

SilverSpider said:
He told Guts about his dream that time during the waterfight in the court yard

But he doesn't say anything about people's place in the world in that scene.
 

Daijyashin

Berserk is Divine and Human
Omega Tom Hanks said:
I meant he sacrificed is soul in a metaphorical sense not literally.

Griffith didn't sacrificed his soul in any sense. He sacrificed the true half part of himself (Guts) and the hawks. The human soul is bound with the common and natural evil that fate claims through Beherits. Void teaches it. It is the "impurity" that is goodness, and fake feelings that are erased (almost totally) with the transmutation as apostle or God Hand.
 
SilverSpider said:
That being said, I recently gave the anime to a friend of mine to watch and he immediately asked me if there was something wrong with Griffith. He's never read the manga or watched the anime before, but something about Griffith's demeanor unsettled him right away. I think some of us - and I'm definitely in that category of people - are also suspicious of people with too much charisma, because lets face it, those kinds of people can get away with anything.

okay...so someone else can follow what I am talking about. I didn't trust Griffith's character prior to having knowledge of the events of the eclipse.
 

Uriel

This journey isn't ov--AARGH!
Omega Tom Hanks said:
Well IMO opinion he sacrificed apart of his humanity(not just physically) when he turned into Femto. That being is soul.

You're confined to our ideas of religion too much, says I.

Shed your Od before diving into the Berserk universe, says I.
 

berserker88

The Raging Demon
Uriel said:
You're confined to our ideas of religion too much, says I.

Shed your Od before diving into the Berserk universe, says I.

Fixed. Anyways............me being Christian has nothing to do with it. More along the lines of as I said he sacrificed his humanity and in doing so his soul when he decided it was best if all those he cared for the slitest bit died.
 

Escalus

Kiss My Cons
Seems like we're arguing semantics on most of these posts.

To get back on target. Re: Something about Griffith doesn't seem 'right'...it seems the nadir of this thread is Griff's speech about how some people are keys that set the world in motion (i.e....they don't simply accept their 'fate', instead they choose a more difficult, 'goal-oriented' course, one of willpower set against the societal constructs of 'man')...

Could it be that some people in real life are envious of this fictional character? (or rather, his worldview)?

That is, they recognize the cold lucidity of his vantage point and are instinctively repulsed when juxtaposing it with their own lives/decisions?
I'm not trying to be a super asshat here. In a sense, I can relate. Promise, yo :chomp:
 
Escalus said:
Seems like we're arguing semantics on most of these posts.

To get back on target. Re: Something about Griffith doesn't seem 'right'...it seems the nadir of this thread is Griff's speech about how some people are keys that set the world in motion (i.e....they don't simply accept their 'fate', instead they choose a more difficult, 'goal-oriented' course, one of willpower set against the societal constructs of 'man')...

In a large amount of ways, i completely agree with Griffith. certain people do mean more to the world. cause they choose to make it happen. they don't let life pass them by and take their lives into their own hands. They cannot allow their lives to pass them by. It's ludicrous

Could it be that some people in real life are envious of this fictional character? (or rather, his worldview)?
That is, they recognize the cold lucidity of his vantage point and are instinctively repulsed when juxtaposing it with their own lives/decisions?

Most likely. But i agree with him. Which is where my dilemma falls.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
Omega Tom Hanks said:
I said he sacrificed his humanity and in doing so his soul when he decided it was best if all those he cared for the slitest bit died.

We get what you mean, but you're not wording it correctly. Given the context, it's not correct to say that he "sacrificed his soul". Because he didn't sacrifice it, at most we can say he shed or disowned some of his humanity. Which isn't his soul at all. His soul went down the Abyss to meet with the Idea of Evil and was transformed into Femto.

Escalus said:
Seems like we're arguing semantics on most of these posts.

I don't think so. Wrong terms make for a wrong understanding and vice versa. Nuance matters.

Skorne said:
Most likely. But i agree with him. Which is where my dilemma falls.

But Skorne, you still haven't clearly expressed what your problem with him is. Without that, it's hard to answer your questions.
 
I'm wondering where it is stated in any of the volumes past and present, that they(the so called "people" who exist in the berserk universe)even have a "soul"(in the stereotypical Judeo-christian sense of the word)in the berserk universe? or is that word even applicable in a world of ethereal beings, and dimensions(that can be proven)that sit aligned and or adjacent to one another(pocket universe)..or is there more meaning behind the word in itself in this story, that is transcendental..as well as beyond the oversimplification that can be applied with the simple stamping of baseless categorical term..
 

Rhombaad

Video Game Time Traveler
I'd say the spectres that Guts constantly does battle with and the existence of astral bodies are more than enough proof that souls (or something like them) are present in the Berserk Universe.
 

Aazealh

Administrator
Staff member
middlepath said:
I'm wondering where it is stated in any of the volumes past and present, that they(the so called "people" who exist in the berserk universe)even have a "soul"(in the stereotypical Judeo-christian sense of the word)in the berserk universe? or is that word even applicable in a world of ethereal beings [...] or is there more meaning behind the word in itself in this story, that is transcendental..as well as beyond the oversimplification that can be applied with the simple stamping of baseless categorical term..

The word "soul" certainly isn't limited to the Judeo-Christian conception of the world. Why would it be? It actually has a pretty vague definition (in truth, a large variety of definitions), that can be applied to a lot of different things in different contexts.

In Berserk, I'm usually reluctant to employ it because I think it easily confuses people, as its general definition can designate several different things (not to mention more abstract concepts, like Omega Tom Hanks showed in this thread). Keep in mind the original text is in Japanese, and that it isn't always easy or even possible to correctly emulate or convey it in English. As it stands, I personally consider "soul" to be referring to people's ego, their ideal self. "Spirit" is what I would use to talk about astral bodies. I strongly advise everybody to stick to the exact, unambiguous terms (ego, astral body) though.

It's honestly pretty complicated and a full explanation would need a bigger post where I'd detail specific occurrences and such. Suffice to say that there are souls in Berserk; case in hand: the Vortex of Souls. Note that the kanji used for "soul" in Berserk has three accepted translations: "soul", "spirit" and "ghost". Yet it isn't the same as the one used for "spirit", who just so happens to also have several accepted translations in English, including, you guessed, "soul". But they're different words with different meanings.

As for references, there are plenty and in various places in the manga, but you should look at Flora's speeches first as they contain a lot of information about the Berserk world and how it functions.

middlepath said:
dimensions(that can be proven)that sit aligned and or adjacent to one another(pocket universe)

I don't think it is correct to talk about dimensions and pocket universes here. Don't try to fit the Berserk universe into some generic Sci-Fi concepts. It is a layered world, in which there exist corporeal, ethereal and ideal sections.
 
Getting off the soul business, really Philosophers and Religious individuals have been debating over it forever and all with different definitions, I think there's fundamentally two different interpretations of Griffith.

1. Griffith The Human: Griffith the human is my particular take on the matter. Griffith was born a commoner and a peasant with nothing that really distinguished him from anyone else. Instead, what made Griffith into the Superman figure that the Hawks viewed him as was nothing more than hard work and an understanding of the value of good publicity.

Griffith did what a lot of real life dictators and world leaders did by establishing a degree of seperation between him and his troops so that he'd be viewed as a super human figure to some degree. Griffith then managed to train himself in areas of learning (all the books in a functionally illiterate society) while also managing to get himself some sword training and tactics. Griffith also is willing to violate all of the usual social nicities of the world to get what's done.

He then made it a point to never show any real weakness in front of his troops and tried to establish himself as a larger than life character. One might argue he specifically recruited Casca because a woman warrior would add to his legend by simple exoticness and he knew he could control her with love.

Griffith the human, eventually, collapses under the weight of his own attempts to be perfect. Griffith doesn't have any real peers because he has to keep himself tightly controlled so people don't clue into his fundamentally treasonous plans. Guts and Casca, however, come close enough to be friends that Guts disappearance sends him to make a critical error and ruin his life.

His transformation into an God Hand is really just a coda for a failed ambitious military commander. A man like Alexander the Great, Napoleon, or Julius Caesar who didn't get as far as he thought he would (but still got extraordinarily far)

2. Griffith the Anti-Christ: This view establishes that Griffith was always something fundamentally different from regular human beings. Born from the Idea's manipulation of genetics and human values from the beginning, everything pretty much fell into Griffith's lap from the beginning as part of the road to transforming him into Femto. It's very similiar to The Omen 2, in which the crux of the movie isn't that Damien Thorne learns he's the Anti-Christ but that he's being educated in all the various things that he'll have to discover in order to properly make a gamble to take over the world.

Now, Griffith isn't the Anti-Christ in any sense that's literal. The only gods we've seen are the Elementals and the Idea. It's not Earth and The Holy See is not Christianity. One should not ascribe the values of one world to another. However, he's a Dark Messiah figure (see TV tropes) that has been created by the Idea of Evil for a specific purpose. From this viewpoint, we can view Griffith as fundamentally different from other men. One might argue that he doesn't think like other people and his seemingly innocent persona has always hid a man whose missing a few screws loose. That's because he was born to be something other than human.

An interesting note, I've always felt that the most interesting part of Guts decision to leave the Hawks to become Griffith's equal is I'm fairly sure he was wrong to take Grifith's words to Charlotte at face value.
 
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