Despite what they say....

Am I the only one who thinks Guts was also "bred" like Griffith by causality and the Idea of Evil to further it's ends? Guts was CENTRAL to Griffiths mental state during his rise and fall, and we could argue Guts is the crux of his transformation.

For all those guys saying Guts can "Struggle" against causality, it seems to me that he's been a puppet to it his whole life. Even leading to Griffiths Rebith (by Caska giving bith to the demon child and him not killing it).

I don't know, I don't think Guts can change his path at all, rather, he's been part of the game, helping Griffith the whole time. (Even with Ganishka-cloud) Even if he didn't intend it.

Unless he finds some way to change his course (Which, I assume he will) He's going to stay a pawn.

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=8223.0

One of many threads I found after running a search on "Guts" and "Causality." There are wells of information on this site, so running a search is the best way to find answers.

Sword said:

Am I the only one who thinks Guts was also "bred" like Griffith by causality and the Idea of Evil to further it's ends? Guts was CENTRAL to Griffiths mental state during his rise and fall, and we could argue Guts is the crux of his transformation.

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Yeah, he was a vital piece in the events that led to Griffith's sacrifice, I think everyone can see that.

Sword said:

Griffiths Rebith

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Griffith wasn't reborn, it's Femto that incarnated himself as a new Griffith. The nuance matters.

Sword said:

I don't know, I don't think Guts can change his path at all, rather, he's been part of the game, helping Griffith the whole time. (Even with Ganishka-cloud) Even if he didn't intend it.

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Well, I don't think it's all so clear and cut out. It's not like Guts is either completely and definitely under the Idea of Evil's influence through causality, or completely impervious to it. That's what the concept of "struggling" is all about: you can resist the influence of something without necessarily always triumphing from it. And I wouldn't say that he's been helping Griffith all along since the Occultation either.

Hmmm

Clearly Guts was the key behind Griffith's mental state at the time of the Eclipse

but if Guts was a pawn for causality why then did he survive the Eclipse.

All the Hawks ended up as pawns for Griffith but only Guts and Casca survived.

It could be said that Guts life leading up to that moment was apart of causality and fate, but it could be that he has been struggling against fate his whole life.

Just like when Skull Knight warns Guts that the Eclipse will happen in a year and that he and his friends will surely die, he follows it up by saying but remember you were born from a corpse and you have struggled your whole life, and that could mean something.


Maybe, what I'm trying to say is that Guts might have been destined his whole life to end up where he did at the Eclipse, but the struggler inside of him changed fate that day.

That's why I think Skull Knight says it could mean something, because it was possible that Guts life leading up to that point was carefully constructed by fate/God of Evil but it might not be. For Instance Zodd sees both Guts and Griffith in action and notes what a struggler Guts is but he doesn't infer that Guts is outside of the realm of causality. He sees their fate and accurately predicts it, but their was something in Guts that causality couldn't predict.

Again Like Skull Knight says Guts isn't outside of the river on the land, he just isn't a shadow moving across it he is more like a fish struggling against the current. He is still surrounded by causality he just fights against it.

Your post is confusing, Ruffled Swordsman. I don't know if it's because you have the wrong notions or if you just don't express them well. Your last line makes me think you have the right idea, but maybe for the wrong reasons. In any case, this is a subject that has been discussed times and times again in the past. I think you would benefit from reading old threads about it, which you can do by using the forum's search engine.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

but if Guts was a pawn for causality why then did he survive the Eclipse.

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He survived because the Skull Knight rescued him a really daring and dangerous way. Otherwise he would be dead.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

All the Hawks ended up as pawns for Griffith but only Guts and Casca survived.

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All the Hawks were sacrificed, Guts and Casca included. The only difference is that the others died right after that. I don't know how that relates to people being "pawns" or not.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

It could be said that Guts life leading up to that moment was apart of causality and fate, but it could be that he has been struggling against fate his whole life.

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There's no mysterious force called "Fate" in Berserk. Guts' life was certainly influenced by causality up to the Occultation ceremony, just like it was influenced by causality after that point. It's incorrect to say that Guts has been "struggling against fate" if you mean anything other than the fact he's had a harsh and difficult life.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

Just like when Skull Knight warns Guts that the Eclipse will happen in a year and that he and his friends will surely die, he follows it up by saying but remember you were born from a corpse and you have struggled your whole life, and that could mean something.

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What Skull Knight meant was that Guts was used to surviving in dire conditions, and that because of this he had the most potential to survive during the Eclipse.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

Maybe, what I'm trying to say is that Guts might have been destined his whole life to end up where he did at the Eclipse, but the struggler inside of him changed fate that day.

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There's no "Fate" to be changed. There's a reason we talk about the laws of causality and not about "Fate". Anyway, maybe he was indeed supposed to die on that day. Maybe not. It's hard to be sure about it at this point. It should be said however that Casca's survival was needed in order for Femto to be incarnated into a new Griffith, and that SK's intervention and Guts' own actions after the Eclipse contributed to the events that led to that incarnation. Like I said earlier, this a difficult question that has been discussed lengthily before, so I invite you to check out some older posts about it.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

That's why I think Skull Knight says it could mean something, because it was possible that Guts life leading up to that point was carefully constructed by fate/God of Evil but it might not be.

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Guts' life was strongly influenced by causality, that can't be denied (to what extent exactly, well, we can't know). His role in the events that led to Griffith's ascension as a member of the God Hand make it a certainty.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

For Instance Zodd sees both Guts and Griffith in action and notes what a struggler Guts is but he doesn't infer that Guts is outside of the realm of causality. He sees their fate and accurately predicts it, but their was something in Guts that causality couldn't predict.

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Actually, Zodd doesn't call Guts a "struggler," he just comments on how strong and skilled he is. He also doesn't predict their fate accurately, since he told Guts he would die (which didn't happen). Zodd himself comments on being wrong about it later on in the manga. It doesn't mean much of course, since in the first place Zodd had just deduced it all after seeing Griffith's beherit. Anyway, Zodd indeed doesn't say anything that infers that Guts could be "outside of the realm of causality." And not only is it not the case, but it's also not even possible and it wouldn't make sense. I'm not sure what your point is here because what Zodd says just doesn't seem related at all.

The Ruffled Swordsman said:

Again Like Skull Knight says Guts isn't outside of the river on the land, he just isn't a shadow moving across it he is more like a fish struggling against the current.

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To be exact, Skull Knight tells Guts in Albion that the material world is like the moon's image reflected on the water, and that he might not just be a shadow reflected on the surface of the water, but a fish creating ripples in it.