D
DemiAngel
Guest
Griffith finally gets his kingdom, marries princess Charlotte, and is portrayed as the ultimate hero of legend. 
Then what?
Then what?
Hmm age of darkness (as if it isn't already pretty hellish, lol) followed by "Enter the Dragon-slayer" (sweet title) oooohhhhh yeeaaahhh. Oh yes, punch & pie will be served too!!
D
Duststorm
Guest
Anyone watched the end of cowboy bebop? Maybe Guts will kill Griffith at the cost of his own life.
How human is Griffith now?
If he still has enough of a remnant of Griffith 1.0 in him, I can see a lot of ennui and unhappiness setting in; his goal will end with him feeling far more hollow than the eternal striving did. Then enter the 'Woe-is-me, at-what-cost-have-I-done-this' moping after the original Hawks. He'll indulge himself more, yada yada yada, and we have the Age of Darkness.
I have a hard time seeing Griffith turning into Satan and just persecuting the land for no reason (outside that of belonging to
).
I want to see Griffith regret. It will make him more real to me, where he hasn't really seemed so since the Eclipse.
If he still has enough of a remnant of Griffith 1.0 in him, I can see a lot of ennui and unhappiness setting in; his goal will end with him feeling far more hollow than the eternal striving did. Then enter the 'Woe-is-me, at-what-cost-have-I-done-this' moping after the original Hawks. He'll indulge himself more, yada yada yada, and we have the Age of Darkness.
I have a hard time seeing Griffith turning into Satan and just persecuting the land for no reason (outside that of belonging to
).I want to see Griffith regret. It will make him more real to me, where he hasn't really seemed so since the Eclipse.
Nonsapient said:
Well, depends on what you mean by human, but basically: not much. To take an example I'm sure Duststorm will appreciate, it's like in the movie Species: he looks human, but he's not human. To summarize: it's Femto in a Griffith body, with remnants of the Demon Child left somewhere inside.
Nonsapient said:
It seems unlikely that his ambition has remained exactly the same after he became part of the God Hand though. His perspective on the world must be completely different now.
Nonsapient said:I have a hard time seeing Griffith turning into Satan and just persecuting the land for no reason (outside that of belonging to
Yeah, it'll probably be more subtle than that. But it's kind of hard to predict what form it will take before it happens.
Nonsapient said:
He's a supernatural being now, and as such it's normal that he hasn't seemed real to you. He's not a normal man anymore, even the characters in the story comment on how he's like a character out of a fairy tale. As for seeing him regret... I hope you're not in a hurry.
Aazealh said:
Oh, I fully agree there. By not 'real' I mean I always get the sense that it is Femto wearing a Griffith suit; much like Buffalo Bill wearing a 'woman suit' in SotL.
(To me this does actually have relevance to the topic)
How much of the original man remains in Femto, then, and how much is nothing more than Idea's finger-puppet? If that balance shifts too far to the side of finger-puppet, we don't have much room for drama between Griffith/Guts/Casca. After all, what would be your motivation in killing a robot dressed as your friend?
Because of the necessities of plot, I would argue that there is more than just a sliver of Griffith 1.0 in Griffith 2.0. Otherwise, the antagonist of the series up to now will fall flat.
He can wear the Griffith 1.0 suit, but I think there may be more than just that sliver in him, even if it is repressed in order to hide from his weakness/pain/himself.("God no, of course I don't care about you guys any more... jeeze...")
Nonsapient said:
Well, I guess a quick way of going about it would be to say that Femto is basically Griffith without anything good in him. Just pure evil. Like I said, it's hard to guess how he thinks or what he wants considering the amount of power and knowledge he has now access to. While he appears to be the same man as before, he's really not the same at all. As for being Idea's puppet, that's a little more complicated than that. You see, Griffith's whole life up to the Eclipse was planned so it would happen the way it did. Same for everything surrounding it. He was engineered specifically to become Femto. So in a way he was really always a "puppet" from the first time. The subtlety here, that I have explained to people many times in the past, lies with causality. Griffith does what he wants, and so do the apostles and the members of the God Hand in general. But they were created and the events around them were shaped in such a way that what they would naturally want is what the Idea of Evil wants them to. Actually, I would say that the members of the God Hand are the ones most likely to be able to make their own choices.
Regarding drama, we've already seen what happened when they all met. Griffith himself was as cold as ice, but what's left of the Demon Child stirred feelings inside him. It even made him lung to protect its mother. This is what's going to provide emotional tension, not to mention the role the mysterious Moonlight Boy might play in the future.
Nonsapient said:
If so I think you're wrong. Griffith doesn't appear to feel any sort of pain or anything else about it. In fact he didn't seem to care all that much in volume 22. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't feel an ounce of guilt about the Hawks. It's more a mix of pride and cruelty, to me, that explains why he lets Guts live. He wants to show Guts that he doesn't care about him, and that he's useless/powerless. To prove it. And in the process, probably to hurt him some more. This arrogance and overconfidence is also probably what will cause his downfall, if Guts ever becomes a serious threat. Then they'll all regret to have underestimated him.
Uriel
This journey isn't ov--AARGH!
Nonsapient said:
The Idea of Evil has an agenda with regards to Femto?
This is news to me. I suppose you could argue that it's very "choosing" of Griffith was an agenda, but.... it doesn't sit well with me.
I'm pretty sure you're getting a little addled as to who Femto is, rather than what. Femto isn't an entirely different entity to Griffith. Femto is still the spiritual/psychological representation of Griffith. All of Pre-Eclipse Griffith's memories and motivations still lie within the container we now see as flesh incarnate -- only, as Aaz says, they aren't identical. His transcendence would surely have altered his perspective. The linear perspective that Griffith had was undoubtedly changed into something far more panoramic. As for the robot comment...well, Guts still has every reason to pursue his current objective. It's not just about waging war on all apostles with Griffith as the final boss. There is a lot of emotion and turmoil remaining, and even though the present vessel that is "Griffith" is, in fact, Femto, Guts still has every reason to desire vengeance. It was the same disposition, the same spiritual entity, the same hand, that compelled the broken Hawk to make the sacrifice and also to rape Casca while Guts watched helplessly.
On that final note, actually, I'd argue that this was Griffith all along -- Femto is a conductor to exemplify what was originally locked away.
.. that's the first time I've posted a lot of stuff this year, so it might be utter arse. Rusty hinges, etc.
Edit - Yeah, Aaz got their first with most of what I said.
Aazealh said:
On the 'finger-puppet' bit - What I meant by this is that he is, of course, a 'finger' of 'God's' 'Hand' in the world. The name Godhand would imply that they act as a causal agent for Idea in the world, no? That's what I meant. Arguing the amount of 'Idea Influence' versus Griffith in Griffith 2.0 is a pointless exercise akin to arguing how much of God is present in a biblical Jesus. Beyond that, I've always possessed the (likely erroneous) feeling that Idea's influence over the Godhand was somewhat more direct than causal action.
Damnit. Work intrudes. More later.
Nonsapient said:
Just a quick note, but I never understood why people attach it. It's "God Hand". There's a space.
Nonsapient said:
I'm not sure you understood what I told you, and your comparison seems clumsy to me. Griffith's life was completely manipulated from before his birth and up until he became Femto. Then, if we go by episode 83, the Idea of Evil told him to do as he wished. He is probably following an agenda that somehow goes along with the other members of the God Hand's own agendas (and ultimately, all of them together work toward a goal that the Idea of Evil set), but his status grants him more potential freedom now than he ever had before. I think you're just confusing yourself with your Griffith 1.0 and Griffith 2.0 appellations. I just don't see how the amount of influence the Idea of Evil exerts upon Griffith is related to the extent of his similarity to his old self. Those two things are on completely different levels and don't oppose each other at all.
Nonsapient said:
What do you mean exactly?
Aazealh said:
To be honest, there's a few things that are going on here and ruining the coherence of my posts:
1) They are being put together in pieces as I go through the motions at work; Thus the rambling, often redundant nature of what I say.
2) I think that there are likely some baseline assumptions I possess that you don't share; thus our 'wires' keep getting crossed, and I'm misinterpreting you. I need to figure out where those errors are originating, first.
Edit: Or I could just be an idiot.
In short, I'm going to shut the hell up for now.
Quick correction on my part: The Idea-Influence in Griffith bit that I am talking about; It seems I've assumed/gotten the impression that some measure of Idea's will is present in Griffith/Femto. As in, the transition from Griffith 1.0 to Femto involved a substitution of Idea's Will for some of Griffith's own original nature. I can't figure out how I reached that belief, and now regard it as suspect, but maybe that will help you understand what I meant. Thus the Jesus comparison: How much of Jesus is man, and how much is God? Thus the finger-puppets. In this scenario, part of the interior nature of each God Hand would be Idea (in some form) it 'fleshes them out'; they are a vessel for extending its power. I've always viewed Causality as the larger stroke used to define the general form Idea is creating, with the God Hand being its brush for fine work. (I guess I got this from Guts as the struggler? In a purely deterministic world, he could never struggle against his fate, only fulfill it; Causality speaks to me of determinism).
And now I really am shutting up.
Nonsapient said:
Ok. Yeah, that explains a lot about your misconception. This isn't how things work, the Idea of Evil doesn't substitute Its own will to that of others. That's not Its methods. And It doesn't need to, actually. Anyway, keep in mind that a lot of things about the Idea of Evil, the God Hand and all the deep mechanisms of the world are very vague at best, and plain unknown most of the time. For example, Griffith's new goals and possible secret agenda have yet to even be hinted at in the manga.
Nonsapient said:
Well, the God Hand serves the Idea of Evil, but from what we know, it's in a large part through the goals of its individual members. According to episode 83 they are told to do whatever they want (just like what they themselves tell apostles), and while it's just a guess, I have the feeling that they don't have a lot of direct contacts with Idea. In fact, maybe they don't ever see it again after descending to the bottom of the Abyss during their transformation. Anyway, you have to realize that if you believe the law of causality allows the Idea of Evil to determine an immense amount of things in advance, there's no reason to think this would not apply at least to some extent to the God Hand as well. You see, they do the "fine work", but how and why? Do they get instructions? I somehow don't think so. It's probably more like they get to act on their own, but like they're supposed to. Of course, following what I said above, we have yet to see some clear hint at this mysterious masterplan. And what about the apostles, can it be said that they do even finer work? They actually get to interact with the material world.
As for determinism, you just proved in your own sentence that it can't be applied to Berserk, or at least not completely. Determinism is the philosophy that all events are inevitable consequences of antecedent sufficient causes, but in Berserk, while the law of causality is extremely powerful, it's not absolute.
A
avidwriter
Guest
DemiAngel said:Griffith finally gets his kingdom, marries princess Charlotte, and is portrayed as the ultimate hero of legend.
Then what?
If I'd have to bet I'd go with him ruling the kingdom now lets for a moment go with him being a good ruler. Guts gets back, finds out about Griffith and goes off to kill him. He would be seen as even worse then he has been ( I'm not 100% as I've only read solid up to 21 and iffy up to the current episodes). He's trying to kill Griffith who everyone thinks is Gods gift to the land and well that'll turn out bad for him but thats how the story has been. He's the "good guy" and he's mostly thought of as a murderous bastard. (again I'm not 100% of this but mostly from what I've read he's feared and hated.)
avidwriter said:
By whom? Guts is mostly just an unknown wanderer. Whether people like him or fear him when they meet him mostly depends on the context of the encounter. As the Black Swordsman he's had a rather fearsome reputation, but we don't know the extent of it, nor what people truly think about it. I mean, what do you think the guys that lived under the Snake Baron's rule think of Guts' intervention in their lives? Or what about the people that were ruled by the Count? In any case, it's never been a problem for him when he came upon a new place. We've never seen people freak out saying "Oh my it's the famous criminal, the Black Swordsman! Run for your lives!" when first meeting him. Only the H.I.C.K.s were after him because of it, and they were mistaken about him.
Aazealh said:
Well said... and let me add that Owen, upon seeing Guts in Vritannis, didn't seem to know anything about "The Black Swordsman"... He just remembered the commander of the Hawks raiding squad.
Other than the H.I.C.K.s, the only beings who seem to know Guts as "The Black Swordsman" are the apostles.
As an aside... will Guts ever reveal his past to any of his companions?