Deep Questions...Deeper Answers

Well so far our enmities are revealed.
Before we start sending bomb mail I suggest we all get back to a Taka No Dan sorta feeling. So, now for the issues...
When Gaisseric was emperor, the people suffered and their thoughts suppousingly summoned idea, since they were all desperate and anguished. Then a "wise man", or "priest", prayed to God after being tortured for a while, to rid the world of Gaiseric. Five, or four(not sure from all I hear) angels came and wrecked havoc throughout the kingdom. Now, if Idea was summoned by the fears and wishes of people, to WHOM did the "wise man" pray? And furthermore, WHO answered. Ok, so it was may have been Idea freshly born, but why then did the whole kingdom along it's people perish? How'd Gaiserrick escape to become SkullKnight?
He may have had the crimson egg, since he was the ruler of a great unified empire, which makes him a candidate for God Hand. Why does he hate them then?
His grudge with Void indicates that he may known him in life.
How did Void invocate the angels, and who were they, if all GH are human?
That's a lot of questions...not to metnion I left out Zodd.
Well, there you have it...shoot.

Well so far our enmities are revealed.
Before we start sending bomb mail I suggest we all get back to a Taka No Dan sorta feeling.

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Im so utterly confused...what happened?

So, now for the issues...
When Gaisseric was emperor, the people suffered and their thoughts suppousingly summoned idea, since they were all desperate and anguished.

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Thats one theory, but In my opinion humanity has always been deserpate and anguished. Its in our nature that negative feelings override the positive ones.

Then a "wise man", or "priest", prayed to God after being tortured for a while, to rid the world of Gaiseric. Five, or four(not sure from all I hear) angels came and wrecked havoc throughout the kingdom.

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Its just a wise man  ;) . I think i was the one that made the mistake of calling him a priest. That was just me remembering an old translation... The 4 or 5 angels part comes from volume 10, during of cource the Gaiseric scene. All of htis is myth and its unclear if there were 4 or 5 (some people heard 4, some 5).

Anyway.Now, if Idea was summoned by the fears and wishes of people, to WHOM did the "wise man" pray? And furthermore, WHO answered.

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My personal opinion is that this is where the 'myth' part overrides what actually happened. Remember the pikaf story? Thats a myth that explains what happens to create an apostle. In this myth, the wise man 'prayed to god' but what actually (well..probably) happened is that he used a crimson beherit, and "god"answered with of cource sending down the God Hand to grant him his wish (sacrifice of empire).

Ok, so it was may have been Idea freshly born, but why then did the whole kingdom along it's people perish? How'd Gaiserrick escape to become SkullKnight?

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The kingdom perished because they were sacrificed. Check out this pic:

How did skully escape? Well its really unclear, since we dont have ANY facts in that area. But my pure speculation would be that since he is a God Hand Reborn (purely speculation still) He fought with the other 4 God Hand that were left after he was reborn which would explain why it appeared to be 4 or rive angels. The fifth would be Gaiseric himself, fighting the God Hand. (this theory was originally speculated by Olivier, but he didnt like it very much, so i snagged it up.)

Why does he hate them then?

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See the above situation  ;) Another reason could be within his words spoken to Guts in volume 18. "What are you doin here old man?" "You know, I always stand against evil things." (im prepared to be beat down Olivier...) If god hand is 'evil' then it appears that he is against the actual concept of the God Hand itself. Perhaps he wants to free humanity from causality? Of cource, its impossible to get a real answer...All we can do is speculate  :(

I so love that pic... utterly eerie! The first time I saw it... whoah, blown away!

I honestly don't want to know facts... not yet. The mystery is better than the theory.

Hmmm, I still want to know why the brands all appear on the forehead and why the bodies remain intact?

-Griffith

maybe the people willingly sacrifice themselves? maybe?

maybe the people willingly sacrifice themselves? maybe?

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whoa....good call!

I'm more worried about the fact that the "revelations" Farnese quoted in volume 14 talked about "the 5th Angel" supposed to be born when the sun died for the 5th time...
I don't know, it sounds like there were 5 Occultations, no more no less?
But then, that would mean that the first one occured about 866 years ago... No God Hands before that?
What about the 4/5 angels that supposedly destroyed Midland, then?
What about the angel(s) the wiseman supposedly called?

If Midland was actually destroyed 866 years ago (ie _roughly_ a thousand years ago... but did the Skull Knight also meant that the Incarnation occurs once a thousand years... roughly? ^^;;; ), I'd understand why those bodies look like that...
No God Hands before that -> maybe the brands weren't made the same way as when Griffith became a God Hand
No God Hands before that -> no Apostles as well -> no "banquet" -> "intact" bodies

But what about the "angels"?

The brands appearing in the forehead doesn't seem that strange to me.

During the occultation, the brand attempted to strike each sacrifice.

The way I always assumed it, it went for the forehead, but sometimes "missed", and chose the closest area of flesh to plant itself.

That doesn't explain why the bodies aren't eatin though.

It's possible that the secrifice of Gaiseric's kingdom was different then the current occultations.

Maybe there were no apostles during this time (am I incorrect in my assumption that there was no Idea, and thus no GodHand at this time?).

The brand may not have involved a spell or incantation, like it did when Void performed the ceremony. It could have been a ritualistic, and conventional, act. One where people were branded in a more worldly fashion (knife, hot iron), then executed.

Maybe they weren't executed at all. Maybe the brand is supposed to be representational of the Christian concept of "the mark of the beast" (worn on the forehead, or right hand).

In the biblical concept of the time of tribulation, a mark would have to be worn by all (you know the story, 666, the number of man). If you didn't wear the symbol, you can't buy food, yada yada.

I believe during the tribulation, 1/3 or somehting, of the worlds population is killed.

How long was Gaiseric's reign exactly? If it were a mere 7 years (the tribulation lasted 7 years), then it could easily be a representation of the tribulations. The biblical concept of the tribulations would certainly be a suitable invironment for the birth of a creature such as Idea.

After the tribulation comes the 1,000 years of peace, then armageddon.

It hasn't been 1,000 years since Gaiseric's time has it? 316 years right? If it is indeed 1,000, it could be further evidence. if it were 316, then that kinda slaps my theory in the face.

I know Griffith's rebirth is reminicent of the second comming of the Christian "messiah". And I'm pretty sure this was intentional. But I'm not sure if it was to make Griffith appear to be a Christ-like figure, or an Antichrist-like figure.

But beyond that I can't really say. So far Idea is the only god of the Berserk world. I don't think Miura intends to make it a completetly evil entitity (though it probably is evil in nature, I do not believe it to represent the devil).

If this were indeed supposed to be a symbolism of hte christian concept of armageddon, then Idea would seem the likely candidate for the devil. Griffith a likely candidate for the antichrist. But here we have another problem.

If Gaiseric's rule were indeed the tribulation........ then he, or someone of his era would have to have been the Antichrist, and that person would have to have been vanquished. Chased into hte abyss by the beast (the beast is reffered to as a seperate entity in the bible, but most people agree this is metaphor, and the beast is a representation of the antichrist's power).

It would be interesting then, if Griffith were supposed to be a Christ figure, and Gaiseric were still on the side of evil (someone once mentioned the possibility of Skully fighting God hand in a way reminiscent to some sort of Satan-complex).

I'm tired, and probably becoming incoherant. I'll try and write up something better in hte morning.

Feel free to correct my inaccuracies and pick my theory apart while I'm sleeping ;)

edit: and sorry for hte biblical mumbo-jumbo.

The way I always assumed it, it went for the forehead, but sometimes "missed", and chose the closest area of flesh to plant itself.

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Well, I just can’t follow you on that one. I mean Guts was hit on the back of the neck and Caska was hit right in the chest and she just stood there (nobody was really dodging them, except Judeau and maybe Pippin tried to “block” it), or Void is just a really bad shot.

Void: Yes, check it out guys, I got that bastard Corkus right between the eyes!

Slan: Yeah, one out of a hundred isn't bad. *roles eyes*

That doesn't explain why the bodies aren't eatin though. It's possible that the secrifice of Gaiseric's kingdom was different then the current occultations.

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Well, one theory that easily explains both is the much-maligned one from the Japanese BBS saying that Gaiseric tried to hold his own false occultation to become a God himself, then Void destroyed his Kingdom to punish him.

So far Idea is the only god of the Berserk world. I don't think Miura intends to make it a completetly evil entitity (though it probably is evil in nature, I do not believe it to represent the devil).

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I don’t think so either, if anything I believe Idea and God Hand are supposed to represent the roles religion plays in humanity, obviously not a favorable representation.  But that’s purely my opinion on God Hand’s/Idea’s possible symbolism.

-Griffith

I kinda woulda appreciated it if the rest of my theory wasn't ignored, I put a lot of time into writing it :\

for your theory wereallmad, i am not ignoring it as i am trying to think of a way to respond to it. The entire schema on judo-christian beliefs seems extremely dark if those are analogies that Miura is trying to make.

From what I have read and what I have learned from Olivier and other's postings is that it did happen 1000 years ago, not the 316 that would dappen your theory.

And I understand your references to biblical figures since it is probably (I say that with a grain of salt) the religion we are familiar with. Still, parallels can be made between many religions. So, on with my own madness....

If Griffith turns out to be the Anti-Christ or a savior of sorts, either result is horribly cynical in my mind. So Griffith had to kill all these people to get to this high position and then from that high position he saves the world...ouch...Or if Griffith is on the opposite end and ends up victorious, what would that say about evil?

I don't know about the no Idea specualtion. He may not have been as powerful, but surely he must have existed back then. He was created by men looking for reasons...which has happened since men existed, so I think Idea was around. The God Hand probably was there too since Void seems to know what he is doing. The apostles though...I dunno. Zodd is always looking for the USO and such so he must have been around then too. Now if all of these people had productive roles during the time of Gaiseric that would be something, but I don't see any proof to go off of that one.

What would really be twisted is if SK, Guts, & Co. were supposed to be the ones attacking the gods in a satan-like manner. Guts is the devil....nonono...too twisted.

I kinda woulda appreciated it if the rest of my theory wasn't ignored, I put a lot of time into writing it :\

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BITCH! BITCH! BITCH! ;)

Geez, you’re starting to sound like me (scary thought?). Sorry, the reason I didn’t comment on the other stuff is because it was all pretty well explained and self-contained (Plus, I planned to sleep myself, so much for that).

Maybe they weren't executed at all. Maybe the brand is supposed to be representational of the Christian concept of "the mark of the beast" (worn on the forehead, or right hand).

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It is a brand that really symbolizes the possession of the body and soul to God Hand, so it’s possible the brand wasn’t a sacrificial mark originally.  But I don't know if I would go so far as to directly connect it to the mark of the beast.  Interesting nonetheless.

I know Griffith's rebirth is reminicent of the second comming of the Christian "messiah". And I'm pretty sure this was intentional. But I'm not sure if it was to make Griffith appear to be a Christ-like figure, or an Antichrist-like figure.

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The Hawk of Light/Hawk of Darkness prophecies certainly parallel the concept. And it’s still unclear as to what Griffith is pertaining to that metaphor.

It hasn't been 1,000 years since Gaiseric's time has it? 316 years right? If it is indeed 1,000, it could be further evidence. if it were 316, then that kinda slaps my theory in the face.

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Olivier said 866 years if you do the God Hand birth ceremony math.  Assuming Void was the first and a bunch of other variables, so the official answer from the manga is still 1000 years I suppose.

Bah, the rest about tribulation and Gaiseric was all very interesting. Such as the Antichrist (possibly Void) being chased into the Abyss (God Hand dimension). I know this is pretty shitty feedback but I’m tired and sick right now (thanks excuse-o-matic!), so I’m sure someone else will give you something better, sorry.

Update: Hey, somebody did as I was writing this, I should've gone to sleep!

-Griffith

The brand may not have involved a spell or incantation, like it did when Void performed the ceremony. It could have been a ritualistic, and conventional, act. One where people were branded in a more worldly fashion (knife, hot iron), then executed.

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That was my thought exactly. I mean... what's to say that this wasn't THE first time? I mean... Before I was all out and thought that the whole GodHand thing was cyclic, that there had been an entirely new set at Gasaeric's time who somehow died when Void came into being. But now....

What if the four angels was something else? Some other servants of idea? Something that was not even human before? And that Gasaerik/Void (take your pick) found a way to tap into this power and harness it for themselves? Then that very first sacrifice would need to be done by hand, the old fashioned way... there might be more reasons that one that it is called a brand, and that it appears on the foreheads.

Perhaps this massive sacrifice of people was done before they even knew about Idea, perhaps it inadvertedly caused the fall of Gasaerik's empire as he called down powers that he could not control. Perhaps that singular, spectacular event changed reality for years to come...

Gah, I am rambling, but I'm on vacation. Nobody can fault me for thinking before breakfast. I know there are holes big enough to drive a pony through... but the thought is interesting, neh?

The bodies in the pit weren't consumed...hmmm..makes u think makes u wonder...I agree that it was the first appearance of the brand. Since there were no apostles yet, nobody ate them. They were sacrificed to die, probably slowly, or better yet, feeding the entity that sacrificed them (it still doesn't explain why are they all zombie like, they should have decomposed). Anyway, about the place of the mark...maybe it's forehead in general,but possible otherwise (the arse maybe :) )
So, I'll continue later cuz the server needs fixin

Okay, I've been going over revelations. And there were so many similarities to the events in Berserk, that you might have trouble believing.

I'm going to sit down and write for a few days on this subject. Then I'll try and present it to you guys.

edit: BTW, I may have an explaination for why the bodies are intact.

I'm not sure exactly how to state a bible verse, so I'll just say the top of the page says "revilations 9:15". and there is a big 9 next to my quote.

"Then the fifith angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit"

"And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. And then sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit."

"Then out of hte smoke locusts came upon the earth.
And to them was given power, as the scorpions have power."

"They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

Okay, this sounds to me like a reverse occultation. Those with the seal placed upon their foreheads, cannot be killed by the monsters.

I wont quote the next verse, which states that the locusts can only torture those with the seal, not kill them, and instead will skip to the description of the locusts, which probably are the apostles in Berserk.

"And the shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on hteir heads were crows of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men"

Interruption: I should note, that there is a real locust, with a face like a man. It's called a Jerusalem cricket. Ugly fuckers. Do a search on google, they are very common all throughout the world.

The only picture I've seen of one, was a poor example, it looked like a cricket with a human skull (redish, like flesh). Supposedly they often resemble little bald men.

"They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth."

"and they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle"

"they had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their power was to hurt men five months."

"And they had a king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon."

Sounds kinda cool. It may take me a while to write up everything, frankly, there is a SHIT LOAD of similarities.

I'm going to try and get a buddy to help me. His father is a revrand, so he'll know a bit more then I do.

ok, maybe i didn't make my previous post clear enough...

maybe the people willingly sacrificed themselves BY KILLING THEMSELVES

just a speculation, but i like it very much

we heard you the first time.

Well wereallmad made my point that that maybe Miura is using the bible as some sort of reference, however, it is only marginal...the book of revelations is an interesting and unsettling read, yes, and many authors and mangaka use it as inspiration for their works. Trick is, how much to take to make it interesting, since we're all pretty fed up with apocalypse, especially now, in the shadow of the NY disasters. I would also like to express my sorrow for all the americans on this board, and I hope no one of you guys lost anyone dear in these shocking events.
Stay strong...

we heard you the first time.

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good, because now i feel like an ass ;D

WAM:
i found your posts quoting Revalations very interesting. i never knew how close some things in Berserk are to the Bible, so thank you.

6 x 6 x 6 = ?

uh....216 ???

i seriously dont follow... :(

6 x 6 x 6 = ?

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216?

I'm sorry, I don't follow you.

Wow....that certainly is an interesting Correlation.

216 years = the number of years in between each Eclipse, or rather the nisshoku that happens at the creation of a God Hand. This is said by the apostles just before the God Hand arrive in volume 12.

666 = the mark of the beast.

and so, 6 x 6 x 6 = 216. A strange parallel. But not necessarily one that has anything to do with the plot, just an interesting play on numbers. Miuras a damned smart guy.

ohhh...i get it now...