Author Topic: Guts leading an army  (Read 4563 times)

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Offline Badass mode ash

Guts leading an army
« on: April 13, 2008, 07:59:58 PM »
If this ever happens or not, how well do you think Guts would do as the leader of an army compared to Griffith, both before and after his transformation? I got this thinking back what everyone in the old band agreed to before the eclipse.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 12:41:09 AM »
Well he led the the raiders, but it was more like Guts going into combat and cutting down the enemy soldiers left and right, giving a huge boost of confidence amongst his group which then led to them fighting their hardest. Having Guts fighting nearby would help to keep the momentum going and with that momentum the troops are going to be fearless or close to that, at least with the Hawks and when they were fighting human opponents. That seems to be one of his strengths. He struggles to survive against crazy odds and when he comes out victorious it is a huge morale boost to anyone fighting alongside him, or just getting to know him.  He doesn't have the same Charisma to draw people to him in the way Griffith did, which is why Griffith is a natural leader. 


As far as currently, we've seen that a Kushan army going against an army full of apostles is something entirely different than pre-eclipse battles. We saw how Ganishka's forces faired against Griffith's apostle forces, even with massive numbers they were torn to ribbons.  I don't see why Guts leading an army would be any kind of advantage at this point in the story, unless he had one that was on par with Griffith's, which wouldn't happen since the apostles are going to try their hardest to destroy guts at some point in time.  Zodd is the one apostle that has actually shown signs of respect for Guts but even he wouldn't hesitate to kill Guts if it were necessary. 

Guts does a great job of leading small groups of people, but that's mainly because they'd be SOL without him. Ganishka's attempt to use massive amounts of troops to defeat Griffith should be a good enough lesson to dispel anticipation of another massive arming trying to storm Midland's walls.
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 07:19:20 AM »
I don't think Guts will raise an army. It doesn't seem to be the way to victory to me. As for how he would do as a leader, I think he would be a good one. But comparing him to the new Griffith is useless, seeing how he's got supernatural powers and charisma. He's beyond human comprehension.

Well he led the the raiders, but it was more like Guts going into combat and cutting down the enemy soldiers left and right, giving a huge boost of confidence amongst his group [...] He doesn't have the same Charisma to draw people to him in the way Griffith did, which is why Griffith is a natural leader. [...] Guts does a great job of leading small groups of people, but that's mainly because they'd be SOL without him.

What you're saying here seems rather reductive and depreciatory to me. Guts is quite charismatic, and if he doesn't have more people drawn to him it's simply because he doesn't want to (and people are drawn to him regardless). In fact it could really be argued whether or not Guts could have become the leader of the remaining Band of the Falcon in volume 12, if the Occultation hadn't occurred. You seem to really underestimate his role and qualities as leader of the raiders, and as an officer under Griffith in general. There's a reason he was so loved by his men, and that's not just because he was a fierce fighter. Same with what you say about his current companions. They're not just following him because they went through bad times, they genuinely care for and admire him.

Offline slayer81

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 04:14:09 PM »
That's right. Think about the small "rag-tag" band Guts had in the battle with Mozgus and his disciples. Things looked pretty bleak but they all banded together and survived it. True enough, battling a whole army of Apostles is far more taxing than going up against an army of mere mortals, and heavy casualties could be expected, but I am confident that if anyone could lead a group against Griffith's army, it would be Guts.

Offline KazigluBey

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 05:22:31 AM »
Quote
They're not just following him because they went through bad times, they genuinely care for and admire him.

I agree with this point, and should probably rephrase what I said as it does reduce his importance more than I intended.

I think that initially what draws people to Guts is different from what draws people to Griffith. Griffith has his appearance itself, beauty that borders on feminine and a radiance about him that draws people who may not even know his feats of battle. On many an occasion we see him on horseback with a sort of glow around him that just demands a sense of awe. Griffith uses his charisma to intentionally draw people to him in order to fulfill his dream, whether its tricking a dirty old man for a cheap night's thrill to get money for his war chest, or to draw strong fighters like Guts to strengthen his forces. Guts doesn't ever give me the impression that he wants to really draw people to him for any real purpose, his deeds of survival just don't speak to me of charisma in the classic sense.  This is most likely because of his experience with Gambino and the old mercenary group, which caused a great distrust of people and physical contact at certain levels.   Whenever he goes to someone's rescue he rationalizes it as being his duty as a soldier and he's helping a brother/sister in arms.  This gives him the appearance of a knucklehead at times (especially with his interactions with Casca).  I mean obviously if he hadn't evolved into a skilled killing machine the book would have not had nearly the impact, but it's because of this ability to survive that draws people to him. His first interaction with the Hawks was him killing a powerful foe during the castle seige, then besting even Casca which pulled Griffith into the situation. After this he got the upper hand on Griffith which was unheard of at that time, at least to the other Hawks.  Then he goes on to be the 100 man killer, and the guy who goes into battle against crazy odds and cuts down foes left and right.  To me this is what drew him to members of the Band of the Hawk, as it was what he brought to the table. His selflessness was one aspect that drew people to him early on, but then again I don't see it as charisma. In a lot of ways Guts is oblivious to a lot of this stuff until he has a chance to sit down and recollect his experience up to the point where Tudor had been defeated. 

Even post eclipse I see a some of this as well. Of course as his companions have been around him and got to know him more they feel a sense of kinship, but a lot of this has come from them watching him in combat, suffering and struggling to survive.  It's a source of motivation to people who are experience a world that is being turned upside down (especially people like Farnese with strong religious upbringings), giving them a sense of hope, but I still don't see it as charismatic. Guts having this insane drive to survive is one of the main points that repeats itself constantly in the book. He may be a leader to them but I think part of it has to do with them realizing that if they are going to survive as the darkness descends, they are going to need a guy like this because he's shown that he can combat these awesome forces and win at times, or at least drive them back.  They see his good qualities beyond just the warrior, but I think it wouldn't be right to discount the fact that they realize that he may be their only chance of surviving in a world where Griffith shows his true face/intentions. 

I hope that made a little more sense, lol. I know you are aware of 99% of this, I just hope I made more sense than in my last post.

 
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Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 01:29:50 PM »
I think that initially what draws people to Guts is different from what draws people to Griffith. Griffith has his appearance itself, beauty that borders on feminine and a radiance about him that draws people who may not even know his feats of battle.

Well, that's true. Let's not mix pre-Occultation and post-Incarnation Griffith though, they're not the same thing. And Guts is also quite impressive at first glance.

Griffith uses his charisma to intentionally draw people to him in order to fulfill his dream, whether its tricking a dirty old man for a cheap night's thrill to get money for his war chest, or to draw strong fighters like Guts to strengthen his forces.

I don't really agree with what you're saying here. Did Griffith trick Gennon? I don't think so. He sold himself for a night against money. Gennon knew very well what he was doing, and I don't think he was tricked at all. He had more than enough money to spare, and the night was apparently totally worth it for him. The most you could say is that Griffith seduced him in order to sell his services afterwards, but that'd just be speculation. And about Guts, it's not like he was in awe when he saw Griffith and decided to pledge allegiance to him. He was defeated in battle, and then he fought him again and was defeated again. Only after that did he become a part of the Falcons. And when he wanted to leave, it's also by force that Griffith tried to stop him. Same for Carcus, who joined the Falcons because he and his band of thieves had been defeated. Then there's Foss, that Griffith only won to his side by having his daughter kidnapped. There are more examples but I think you get the point.

Guts doesn't ever give me the impression that he wants to really draw people to him for any real purpose, his deeds of survival just don't speak to me of charisma in the classic sense.

He clearly doesn't want to draw people to him (and says it directly in the manga), which goes along with the fact that he doesn't have an ulterior purpose in mind like Griffith did back in the day. But that's got nothing to do with having charisma or not. On the contrary, the fact that people are still drawn to him in spite of his attitude seems to me to be a testimony to the fact that he is charismatic in his own way. This is shown as early as in volume 1, when Puck decides to tag along with him despite the bad treatment he gets. And really anyway, aside from the story itself, don't we all love Berserk because of Guts? This speaks more than enough of his attractiveness as a character, which is basically what charisma is.

Whenever he goes to someone's rescue he rationalizes it as being his duty as a soldier and he's helping a brother/sister in arms.  This gives him the appearance of a knucklehead at times (especially with his interactions with Casca).

To me this sounds like speculation on your part, and I don't see how you're getting to any of your conclusions based on his talks with Casca (which could be said to make her look like a hysterical and irrational woman as well, following what you say). Especially since in the end, he's more or less shown as being in his right (Casca was jealous, Griffith expected him to act like he did, his men loved and respected him). Since you're talking about rationalizing one's attitude though, what of Griffith's own actions? More than anyone else, Griffith came to be fascinated by Guts, and eventually couldn't stand the idea of him leaving. All of this without any particular effort from Guts, who himself had no problem leaving once he decided to. Casca fell in love with him as well, after years of idolizing Griffith (which I personally do consider an indication of his charisma in the context). This all seems a bit much to me for someone that, from what you say, would only attract people because of his strength. Reducing him to just that seems unfair to me, and doubly so when taking into account the fact Griffith himself wouldn't have had nearly as much success had he not been a formidable warrior in the first place.

It's a source of motivation to people who are experience a world that is being turned upside down (especially people like Farnese with strong religious upbringings), giving them a sense of hope, but I still don't see it as charismatic. [...] He may be a leader to them but I think part of it has to do with them realizing that if they are going to survive as the darkness descends, they are going to need a guy like this because he's shown that he can combat these awesome forces and win at times, or at least drive them back.  They see his good qualities beyond just the warrior, but I think it wouldn't be right to discount the fact that they realize that he may be their only chance of surviving in a world where Griffith shows his true face/intentions.

The problem with what you say here is that none of the characters know what lies ahead, and they knew even less at the time they joined Guts. Their only chance to survive in a world where Griffith shows his true intentions? We don't even know his intentions ourselves, and Guts' band is far more clueless than we are. They're not tagging along because of that, they're just following him as he goes to Elfhelm to find a cure for Casca. And you mention Farnese, but forget to say that Guts was central to bringing her out of the mental coffin she had buried herself in to escape her fears as a kid. Putting an end to her disarray, something no one else could have done. She abandoned everything she had to follow him, swallowing her pride in the process. I don't think it's right to reduce it as his aptitude to survive being enviable (and there's a lot more to say about it too, with the other characters that wanted to or are currently travelling with him). Otherwise one could chalk up anything to people wishing to side with the promising general that was Griffith during the war against Tudor. In fact, the Band of the Falcon's success undoubtedly played a big part in its popularity and the fact it attracted many recruits.

To summarize my point here, I'll say that the fact Griffith was very charismatic before and is now supernaturally so doesn't mean that Guts isn't charismatic himself, in his own way. Charisma isn't a magic power (at least not in the sense I mean it here), it's just a certain personal appeal that can take various forms. For example Federico de Vandimion is depicted in the manga as a very charismatic man, yet in many ways he isn't as impressive as either Guts or Griffith. Because this quality is accentuated in Griffith in the manga and not in Guts, I can see how one might just discard it at first, but upon examining things again I believe it should become clear that among his many other qualities, Guts does in fact have a certain charisma.

Offline Smith

Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2008, 04:52:19 AM »
And really anyway, aside from the story itself, don't we all love Berserk because of Guts?

Wow you hit the jackpot dude... This statement itself is enough to summarize that entire chunk of info from your post above.
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Offline Skullgrin140

Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 06:13:44 PM »
From how I see it, Guts pretty much is a (One man army) now that he has the Berserker's Armor so I dont imagine seeing him leading an army any time soon. But it would be nice if he kinda led an army agaisnt Griffith's group.

Offline Smith

Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2008, 02:32:04 PM »
At some point or another there is going to be a staged rebellion against Griffith, especially if all of them are starting to see Griffith's true side...

If that ever happen Guts will definitely be the most suitable candidate for leading them... I mean who else has real experience fighting apostles? Those that did have already been torn into shreds...
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Offline SimplyEd

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2008, 10:07:22 PM »
At some point or another there is going to be a staged rebellion against Griffith, especially if all of them are starting to see Griffith's true side...

If that ever happen Guts will definitely be the most suitable candidate for leading them... I mean who else has real experience fighting apostles? Those that did have already been torn into shreds...


Hmm, it depends. The events that we are seeing right now do not only change the political and social landscape of the world those people are living in. Reality in itself is beginning to get distorted into something drastically different. Normal humans don't have much of a chance in an open confrontation against the horrors we have seen so far, regardless of their numbers. Guts and his group and very few other gifted people have been able to survive so far but they are beginning to lose their footing, slowly but surely. Right now, Guts &  his group already have a hard time to get by themselves and whatever it is that's waiting for them in Elfhelm, it will probably be something that'll benefit them personally.
And that's probably how the future confrontations will play out. On a personal level, with Guts being supported by a relatively small band of extraordinary individuals.
I don't see him leading an army or any larger group of people.
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Offline Proj2501

Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 05:50:54 PM »
On a personal level, with Guts being supported by a relatively small band of extraordinary individuals.
I don't see him leading an army or any larger group of people.

Well, calling everyone is Guts' band extraordinary may be a stretch. Don't get me wrong, they all possess little things that set them apart from ordinary folk.

Serpico: Can handle a sword, has a quick mind and is extremely strategic. He almost bested Guts.
Isidro: Has heart and attitude.
Farnese: Well, she's a babysitter as far a 'battle' goes. But that may change with her recent magic-lessons.
Casca:  :???:
Azan: ...He's big.  :schierke:

I think the only real extraordinary one out of all of them, besides Guts of course, is Schierke. Her ability as a magic user is VAST.

Honestly, had Serpico, Isidro and Farnese notbeen given certain enchanted items by Flora, they wouldn't be here right now.

Even before the recent "Unleash your evil!" twist, it was obvious Guts cannot defeat ALL of the Neo-Hawks by himself. Berserk Amor or not. Even worse with the Berserk armor. Yes, it gives him an edge so to speak but look at what cost. He's losing his senses pretty rapidly.

If EVERY kingdom rallied against Griffith, it'd be a waste of time. Stomp, next. They're missing that other worldly thing on their side. Enter Guts and Co.
Also, Guts' best best for survival and for revenge is to have an army rally behind him.
As capable as Guts is, he cannot win singlehandly, or even with the aid of his band, against the Neo-Hawks.
He'll need sheer numbers eventually.
*EDIT* Now, that I think of it, what was the number Skully threw out there. A magic user being more dangerous than an army of ten thousand?
Still though, it would make Griffith's speech of an unequal so much more fitting, if Guts was leading an army against him.

*wanders into speculation territory*
No doubt one day we'll see Raban, Owen, maybe the Octopus Knight and pal fighting alongside Guts.
(I mean, they have 'future familiar character' written all over them.)
*EDIT* And what about Silat and his crew, huh?
This trip to Elfhelm is more that just curing Casca (I know you all knew that). By Guts and Co. acquiring items or even knowledge for that matter, they're getting that little something no one in Midland has. That something, whatever it may be, is the seed for Griffith demise. Midlanders will be helpless until Guts steps back onto shore...

...with a big can o' whoop ass.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 06:01:22 PM by Proj2501 »

Offline Aazealh

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Re: Guts leading an army
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2008, 06:05:52 PM »
He almost bested Guts.

Don't get carried away. :beast:

I think the only real extraordinary one out of all of them, besides Guts of course, is Schierke. Her ability as a magic user is VAST.

I disagree. Serpico, Azan and Isidro are all excellent fighters from what we've seen in the series so far. They're clearly well above average. And so was Casca, once upon a time. As for Farnese, she has a noble heart and isn't devoid of courage as she's shown in the past. She's been useful in battle before too, against the Pishacha and such. Not yet a fierce opponent but I'm sure she'll continue to grow.

Honestly, had Serpico, Isidro and Farnese notbeen given certain enchanted items by Flora, they wouldn't be here right now.

Well, where would Guts be without the Dragon Slayer? :guts:

Also, Guts' best best for survival and for revenge is to have an army rally behind him.

What human army could beat one made of apostles? Overcoming them would require magic I think.

*wanders into speculation territory*
No doubt one day we'll see Raban, Owen, maybe the Octopus Knight and pal fighting alongside Guts.
(I mean, they have 'future familiar character' written all over them.)

Hmm, I don't know about that. Assuming they do something, they could be their own third party force, like Silat and his clan.