Xenosaga trilogy (and Xenogears)

I did a search but I didn't find any threads based on these interesting games.

I for one was a huge fan of Xenogears, but they reinvented it as Xenosaga and the first episode was really well-written; full of metaphors and even had characters quoting Shakespeare! Unfortunately the series went downhill from there but I finally managed to comprehend most of the series by reading through fantranslations of several sourcebooks and sidestory games and I'm utterly intrigued by the scope of this series. It's too bad the presentation in the actual games are a complete mess and that Episode II and III are written like ass. Still, I'm curious if there is anyone else here who's into the whole Xeno-series?

That search of yours must not have been very thorough.

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2236.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2637.0

There are other threads, but they're too old or not that interesting. I haven't played any game of the series myself. I've been meaning to do Xenogears for years, but I've never found the time.

I really dug Xenogears, but absolutely abhored what was done with Xenosaga. That series got trashed by Monolithsoft. But Gears was really something special - and the last RPG I really enjoyed.

It's the best game I've ever read

Walter said:

It's the best game I've ever read

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Yeah that's the exact reason why I stopped playing.

Vampire_Hunter_Bob said:

Yeah that's the exact reason why I stopped playing.

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Well, if you treat it like a book, it's not that bad. The story's worth the investment of time.

Walter said:

Well, if you treat it like a book, it's not that bad. The story's worth the investment of time.

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Yeah that was my first mistake. The rest of the game [all 15 minutes of it] were good. Anyways, Xenosaga was still better then Star Ocean till the end of time.

[quote author=Aazealh]
That search of yours must not have been very thorough.

http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2236.0
http://www.skullknight.net/forum/index.php?topic=2637.0
[/quote]

Well, I actually found the second link, but I wanted to create one for the whole series in general. The first one I missed somehow, but the things discussed are not very relevant anymore.

[quote author=Walter]
I really dug Xenogears, but absolutely abhored what was done with Xenosaga. That series got trashed by Monolithsoft.[/quote]

Yeah, they shouldn't have tried to reinvent the series for every game. At least they could have waited till the next arc to pull that shit, then we might've had the arc by now.

Xenosaga III isn't that bad though, it just relies too much on the damn database.

Also, I didn't think Xenogears was all about reading the story. Sure the engine is very simple and the battles monotonous, but the great music and the awesome camera angles should not go underappreciated

A.C said:

Yeah, they shouldn't have tried to reinvent the series for every game. At least they could have waited till the next arc to pull that shit, then we might've had the

Spoiler

Lost Jerusalem

arc by now.

Xenosaga III isn't that bad though, it just relies too much on the damn database.

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None of those reasons were why I hated Xenosaga. It was just plain embarassing compared to Xenogears. There were times I honestly felt embarassed to be playing it, lest someone walk by the room and wonder why I was playing a game with two 10-year olds talking in high pitched voices babble about their feelings (Junior and Momo). So much goddamned DRAMA that no one in their right minds would care about. The story would genuinely appeal more to lonely housewives than gamers.

Also, I didn't think Xenogears was all about reading the story. Sure the engine is very simple and the battles monotonous, but the great music and the awesome camera angles should not go underappreciated

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Oh, Im not discrediting the game's other attributes. The music is indeed especially awesome and memorable. However, the battle system is pretty transparent, I thought. A baby could trounce through it with the right dial-a-combo repetition.

I just meant that for the most part, players are simply "along for the ride" in Xenogears, rather than actually playing the game. Which to me becomes more of a boon than a curse. That's to say nothing against the cinematic moments of the story (not referring to CG here), which are always awesome. But in several parts, particularly disc 2, it became more than obvious that the gameplay was being thrown in to satisfy certain expectations of an RPG, rather than let it play out as a movie. In fact, I actually recorded most of the last portion of the game on VHS so I could rewatch it as it was meant to be experienced: straight video!

I actually remember NOT liking Xenogears when it first came out because it's such a strange game. It defies conventions in a way that deviates it from actual gameplay, but ultimately for the better.

[quote author=Walter]
None of those reasons were why I hated Xenosaga. It was just plain embarassing compared to Xenogears. There were times I honestly felt embarassed to be playing it, lest someone walk by the room and wonder why I was playing a game with two 10-year olds talking in high pitched voices babble about their feelings (Junior and Momo).[/quote]

Hmm, yeah...now that you mention it, I do remember my first time watching the scene were Jr. is introduced and he was welcomed back on the bridge of the Durandal by this awkward looking anime-chic and a dozen cute-girl clones and I was like wtf?

They shouldn't have wasted time and money creating all those cinematic CG scenes but used the good ol' textboxes instead. Then the tacky anime aesthetics wouldn't have been so in-your-face at those parts. I really hated MOMOs voice in Episode I, it got better in II/III.

[quote author=Walter]So much goddamned DRAMA that no one in their right minds would care about. The story would genuinely appeal more to lonely housewives than gamers.[/quote]

It was overly ambitious, but I appreciated the effort. I especially liked the Cherenkov character. They should have cut down on all that stuff with Jr. and MOMO though, not to mention the infamously badly-written curry scenes. But then again Xenogears also had about ten minutes of dialogue discussing the virtue of Maison's tea...

[quote author=Walter]That's to say nothing against the cinematic moments of the story (not referring to CG here), which are always awesome.[/quote]

I liked how Xenogears used the game engine to present it's cinematic scenes. It was like Metal Gear Solid.

[quote author=Walter]In fact, I actually recorded most of the last portion of the game on VHS so I could rewatch it as it was meant to be experienced: straight video! [/quote]

I would've loved to record some of my favorite scenes from 'Gears on VHS, unfortunately my VHS is PAL and the game is a US import (since it was never released officially in Europe) so all I get is a lousy black and white recording

[quote author=Walter]I actually remember NOT liking Xenogears when it first came out because it's such a strange game. It defies conventions in a way that deviates it from actual gameplay, but ultimately for the better.[/quote]

I thought the game looked ridiculous when I played the demo (which came with Parasite Eve) but the intro movie was intriguing and I needed something to kill my time with while waiting for FF8 so I imported it and soon I was blown away by the game. I couldn't go back to playing FF after that.

This is apparently my longest post in ages.

The Good
Xeno games are my absolute favorite of any game I've ever played.

The storytelling of Xenogears is brilliant. It manages to balance the personal and the world shaking elements spendidly. When in development they found they were running out of time, they made a gutsy but well thought out decision to tell a good chunk of the 2nd disc with narration.

"Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of the world. If the world does not come to an end, I will destroy it with my own hands!"

Xenosaga focused too much on the characters, but when they did epic, they did epic. Proto Deus reducing a planet to rubble as it rips itself out. Any CG fight involving KOS-MOS. Etc. KOS-MOS was done how an individual without emotions should be done (Cmd Data wasn't).

Xenosaga really did give me what I expected. Far from bad games, I did enjoy them all quite a bit. Especially in 3 there were lots of treats for those familiar with Xenogears. About the time they said that they'd have to split episode 1 into two parts, I knew it wasn't going to be another Xenogears, but Xenogears didn't quite live up to its potential.

The replay any movie and see all game models part of Xenosaga 3 was awesome and should be in every game, and unlocked with completion so you get the end too.

The image theme of Xenosaga 2

The Bad
Xenogears, while I'll admit a lost of its combat system was overly simple, it did still manage to provide substantial challenge. I remember one time through, right before a marathon battle culminating with a drive enhanced Elly in her gear, I had accidentally killed the heal gear at the save point. I found that I didn't have enough power to beat them and no way to get more. The sewers in the prison district also strike me as especially difficult.

The other big problem with Xenogears' battle system was that it gave you "magic" but the magic was largely useless. They gave you one battle with Weltall fairly early on where you used magic, and after that, especially in gears, you didn't bother.

Xenosaga's battle system, especially in 1, was horribly slow, as I imagine you all remember. 1/2 of the other problems with it could fixed with less wasteful animations. The speed made battles a hassle, which made them less enjoyable so you had lower levels, so the game was harder. I suppose that was one way to inject difficulty though. The different systems in the 3 games were all interesting and worthwhile, too bad the mechs were pointless in 1. I think it would have been nice if they blended together though. If they wanted to have sharp cuts between systems, they should have waited until they got to their next era.

Xenosaga's biggest fault in my mind was the way it dawdled. Perhaps those aspects were added late in production as they realized they were running low on time. I was quite displeased with the ending too, but I think I can blame that largely on how they had to abandon the original plan for more episodes.

The Random
I've often thought that Xenogears suffered from being portrayed in the wrong medium. I think it might make a far better anime then video game.

Xenosaga had a lot of potential it didn't live up to. I understood that one of the people responsible for the parts we loved was booted from the project for some reason. They didn't have the time/budget to complete whatever their original plan was either.

I still hope that some day we'll get a full realization of the entirety of Perfect Works however unlikely that may be.

I've loaned my XG to a friend who I don't think is gonna play, I needa get that back and play through it again.

Xenogears is a ''love it or hate it'' game but like my favorite review of this game puts it:

The plot is magnificent. I think it shares a similarity with almost all the great works of this century: the opening of the plot is rather slow, but this consequently strengthens the proximity between the player and the characters, to an almost unbearable extent. And when it truly starts taking off, Xenogears (what a wonderful name) delivers its inspirational message with defiant eloquence. Saying that Tolkien himself wouldn't have disliked the story and that some of the lines seem to deal with existential questions with a vividness rivaling the works of most renowned Jamesian authors wouldn't be exaggerating much, really.

Protagonist Fei Fong Wong's incredible voyage from his defunct native village to the perilous headquarters of an evil empire he'll eventually have knocked of its pedestal appears as Herculean, to say the least.

Like a Greek tragedy, Xenogears handles its plot eminently, with its fair share of pathos, heavy suspense and symbolism. In the end, it gathers every cliche in role-playing history but tries to take them further while giving them a reason to be, and it works extremely well. Intermixing controversial religious themes, ultra-kitsch Japanese mecha culture and daring elements of Freudian psychology Xenogears displays a truly inspiring tale well worthy of being considered as a masterpiece.

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Yet Xenosaga builds on the story to create twice the Mammoth, even if it abandons the original plot in favor of a new, unfinished one. The fact that it was supposed to span from the beginning to the end of the universe is just crazy, and too good to abandon that easily. How about a novel?

Majin Tenshi said:

Xenosaga focused too much on the characters, but when they did epic, they did epic. Proto Deus reducing a planet to rubble as it rips itself out. Any CG fight involving KOS-MOS. Etc. KOS-MOS was done how an individual without emotions should be done (Cmd Data wasn't).

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I don't think it focused too much on the characters, but it did focus on alot of trivial things. And MOMO wasn't very interesting as a character. Also, dividing the "arcs" into two episodes was a smart move, but they ended Episode I far too soon. Episode I should have had all the content from Episode II as well and Episode III should've been called Episode II. The thing you call "Proto-Deus" (the Omega System) I don't think was a part of the original script. Soraya Saga mentioned that disc 2 of Episode II deviated from it, and the scene was completely different from the "U-DO vs. KOS-MOS" vision that was set up in Episode I. Episode III also makes no mention of the Omega System in the ghost of old Miltia.

Majin Tenshi said:

Xenosaga's biggest fault in my mind was the way it dawdled. Perhaps those aspects were added late in production as they realized they were running low on time. I was quite displeased with the ending too, but I think I can blame that largely on how they had to abandon the original plan for more episodes.

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I liked the ending, and I felt they left it as open as it always should have been. We got alot of hints for where the story would've gone next.

Majin Tenshi said:

I've often thought that Xenogears suffered from being portrayed in the wrong medium. I think it might make a far better anime then video game.

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I felt Xenogears worked well as a video game and I wouldn't want to have it any other way. Xenosaga, on the other hand, should've been a TV series like Battlestar Galactica. That would've been awesome. Either way, gaming is a medium that is ill-suited for it. It is basically a waste and a damn shame for such a compelling story.

Majin Tenshi said:

Xenosaga had a lot of potential it didn't live up to. I understood that one of the people responsible for the parts we loved was booted from the project for some reason. They didn't have the time/budget to complete whatever their original plan was either.

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Well, Tetsuya Takahashi and Soraya Saga wrote the originally script. However their work on Episode II was heavily adapted by MSI in Episode II and someone else wrote almost all of disc 2 for that game. Takahashi did come back to fix everything in Episode III though. Episode III was basically for the fans so I think most of what the intended plan was did come through. They just didn't bother with the other two arcs.

A.C said:

I liked the ending, and I felt they left it as open as it always should have been. We got alot of hints for where the story would've gone next.

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It wasn't the openness of the ending that bugged me. That I liked. Perhaps its more accurate to say I hated Wilhelm's scheme which was revealed in the last 5 minutes. Perhaps also, after all those XG allusions, I expected something that more clearly went that direction. I spose I can see them setting off in the Eldridge looking for a new world for the remnants of humanity to live on, but Deus having any presence in the future of that world I don't see.

This is spoiler territory for anyone who hasn't played the series.

Majin Tenshi said:

Perhaps its more accurate to say I hated Wilhelm's scheme which was revealed in the last 5 minutes.

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I thought his "solution" to the collapse of the universe was very interesting, and I knew he'd be the puppet master ever since the ending to Episode II. I did think it was a bit lame that all the villains just came and fought you "on cue" during the final portion of the game though but it was good you never physically fought Wilhelm, it left him with dignity, like Krelian.

Majin Tenshi said:

Perhaps also, after all those XG allusions, I expected something that more clearly went that direction. I spose I can see them setting off in the Eldridge looking for a new world for the remnants of humanity to live on, but Deus having any presence in the future of that world I don't see.

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They re-wrote the plot because the author considered some ideas from 'Gears to be old-fashioned. For example, KOS-MOS is clearly the new device the use instead of Deus. This was blatantly implied as far back as Episode I with "Ye Shall Be As Gods". Animus, the central element of Kadamony became "T-Elos" which returned to KOS-MOS (and later Nephilim) and "Persona" was most likely "Mary Magdalene." In PW it is said that Deus' true objective was so important it "absolutely had to be carried out, regardless of the time required" hence it's whole restoration plan. I'm willing to bet the mission was the same as chaos and Nephilim's; to prevent the universal collapse by attempting to heal the fragmented souls (in Xenogears assimilated into Deus and in 'Saga assimilated into Nephilim.)

Also, instead of taking a detour and having Deus crash onto an unknown planet - chaos, Nephilim, and Abel made a domain shift directly to Lost Jerusalem which is where Deus was always headed. Also, making Abel an extension of the Wave Existence was a brilliant idea. The story seems to head in almost exactly the same thematic arc as Xenogears but with a vastly improved plotline. Would it have been as good as Xenogears? Who can say, but it does have alot going for it.

Its been a long time since I've needed proper XG terms, and I'm not having much luck finding a reference.
If you have a better reference to direct me to or could refresh my memory.
In the "Eldridge Power Core" there were two golden pillars. I could guess one was the Zohar, the other?

A.C said:

This is spoiler territory for anyone who hasn't played the series.
I thought his "solution" to the collapse of the universe was very interesting, and I knew he'd be the puppet master ever since the ending to Episode II. I did think it was a bit lame that all the villains just came and fought you "on cue" during the final portion of the game though but it was good you never physically fought Wilhelm, it left him with dignity, like Krelian.

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It was almost certain he was the mastermind at the end of Ep 1.

I still don't like his reset button goal. As cryptic as his machinations were, he could have had any morally ambiguous goal introduced in the last 5 minutes and it would have been equally believable. He could have wanted to turn everyone into Gnosis (immortal and needless) or will-less drones(free will only leads to mistakes), or destroy the universe(life is suffering). In any case, the whole, infinite loop finally degrading I didn't like.

A.C said:

They re-wrote the plot because the author considered some ideas from 'Gears to be old-fashioned. For example, KOS-MOS is clearly the new device the use instead of Deus. This was blatantly implied as far back as Episode I with "Ye Shall Be As Gods". Animus, the central element of Kadamony became "T-Elos" which returned to KOS-MOS (and later Nephilim) and "Persona" was most likely "Mary Magdalene." In PW it is said that Deus' true objective was so important it "absolutely had to be carried out, regardless of the time required" hence it's whole restoration plan. I'm willing to bet the mission was the same as chaos and Nephilim's; to prevent the universal collapse by attempting to heal the fragmented souls (in Xenogears assimilated into Deus and in 'Saga assimilated into Nephilim.)

Also, instead of taking a detour and having Deus crash onto an unknown planet - chaos, Nephilim, and Abel made a domain shift directly to Lost Jerusalem which is where Deus was always headed. Also, making Abel an extension of the Wave Existence was a brilliant idea. The story seems to head in almost exactly the same thematic arc as Xenogears but with a vastly improved plotline. Would it have been as good as Xenogears? Who can say, but it does have alot going for it.

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I suppose my dissapointment could simply stem from expecting one plot and getting another.

I saw Xenosaga I taking place between Perfect Works 1 and 2 and making certain associations. Some/all of these certainly became outright wrong at stages of Xenosaga. I might have made faulty conclusions about XG as well.

I thought KOS-MOS pourpose was becoming a critical component of Deus, a superweapon needed for a war (gnosis). Specifically there was a humanoid figure in XG's Zohar, she just hadn't been installed yet. Deus' function could have worked by controlling all the gnosis and directing them to one place in space(/time) and destroying them all at once. Partial activation caused the gnosis to become more active in the world. I spose KOS-MOS' ties to Mary Magdaline work great if she is destined to be installed in the Zohar (Jesus).

The 4766 TC experiment which called down the wave existence being the spark of the "Miltian Conflict."

I would have preferred the XG story of Abel (him being his physical age and all). I s'pose Nephalim could have been the mother he was searching for, ghostified in an experiment, and manifesting with childlike age. Its then Abel's influence over the Zohar that causes their details. Neph's soul latches onto Elly at her next reincarnation.


I don't mind reworking the story. Fleshing out a few paragraphs into a 2 episode game would almost guarantee it. I liked that they added new lasting and important beings to the world (chaos, Wilhelm). Telling a game story that ends with a loss encourages you to create new foes to have a victory over before the end (see: Crisis Core). Still, there were a lot of things that could have been taken from Perfect Works that were ignored. Enough that I think you have to abandon the PW outline.

Majin Tenshi said:

Its been a long time since I've needed proper XG terms, and I'm not having much luck finding a reference.
If you have a better reference to direct me to or could refresh my memory.

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Wikipedia is pretty unreliable. It's too abridged and some dates are wrong, plus alot of info is missing. You should just check out PW translations yourself. The scanlation at http://www.razael.com is the best one I've seen so-far but it's far from complete.

Majin Tenshi said:

In the "Eldridge Power Core" there were two golden pillars. I could guess one was the Zohar, the other?

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None was the Zohar. We never see the Zohar onboard the Eldridge. The two golden pillars are the Razael computer mainframe.

Majin Tenshi said:

As cryptic as his machinations were, he could have had any morally ambiguous goal introduced in the last 5 minutes and it would have been equally believable. He could have wanted to turn everyone into Gnosis (immortal and needless) or will-less drones(free will only leads to mistakes), or destroy the universe(life is suffering). In any case, the whole, infinite loop finally degrading I didn't like.

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Well, I thought it was original and philosophical. Destroying the universe or evolve humanity into some new state of existence would have been cliché.

Majin Tenshi said:

I saw Xenosaga I taking place between Perfect Works 1 and 2 and making certain associations. Some/all of these certainly became outright wrong at stages of Xenosaga. I might have made faulty conclusions about XG as well.

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Yeah I suppose it depends on where you're coming from. I expected Xenosaga to be a completely new series with only some cameos from Xenogears but was surprised at how similair it ended up being to both Xenogears and PW's Episode I timeline. It's basically a change in plot while keeping the overall thematic story and timeline intact.

Majin Tenshi said:

I thought KOS-MOS pourpose was becoming a critical component of Deus, a superweapon needed for a war (gnosis). Specifically there was a humanoid figure in XG's Zohar, she just hadn't been installed yet.

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Well, I had read PW's Episode I timeline/science section before Xenosaga I came out and I always suspected something was "off" when Xenosaga introduced KOS-MOS even though I saw alot of theories how KOS-MOS could become a part of Deus at the time. The problem is that Original Elehayym (the humanoid figure in XG's Zohar) supposedly evolved from Kadamony's biological Animus component and KOS-MOS was not biological, nor Animus (in Episode I).

Majin Tenshi said:

The 4766 TC experiment which called down the wave existence being the spark of the "Miltian Conflict."

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The connection experiment happened in T.C 4767 and the Miltian Conflict happened in T.C 4753 (which coincides with the interstellar war intensification note in PW's timeline) so that wouldn't have worked either. I saw alot of these Deus theories back in the day but none of them seemed to work with the plot at any point in the Xenosaga story.

Majin Tenshi said:

I would have preferred the XG story of Abel (him being his physical age and all). I s'pose Nephalim could have been the mother he was searching for, ghostified in an experiment, and manifesting with childlike age.

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Yeah but I always felt Xenogears' Abel was a bit too random, and his arc ended as soon as the WE left the Dimensional universe. A human boy that becomes God's agent and recieves his power is cool and all, but God himself becoming a human sounds alot more interesting to me. At least as long as they follow the 'Gears arc in a similair thematic way. That'd be incredible.

Majin Tenshi said:

Still, there were a lot of things that could have been taken from Perfect Works that were ignored. Enough that I think you have to abandon the PW outline.

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Hmm. Like what exactly? Apart from Strategic Interstellar Weapon Deus and the Eldridge I felt that pretty much everything in the Episode I timeline (well, the little we got clued in on in PW) were included and expanded upon (with some alteration perhaps) in the Xenosaga trilogy. I guess I don't miss Deus as much since I kinda made my peace with that long ago, and it was really only a plot device and never was what the Xenogears story was truly about.

It was cool how Abel's Ark took the shape of the Eldridge as an easter egg though

I never played through Episode III, since Episode II turned me off to the entire series. So Im sure there are gaps in my knowledge, seeing as how I missed the conclusion of the story and all. But I have some questions.

Call me a layman, since its been nearly a decade since I looked on Perfect Works, but why exactly do Episodes I and II of Xenosaga focus so much time on the gnosis, since they play nearly no role in the overall plot (other than a supernatural/superficial MacGuffin). They're not even mentioned at all in Perfect Works, yet you guys are maintaining that PW was still followed.

Id say the vast majority of time in both Eps I and II are spent dealing with the gnosis. Seems like an awful waste of time, since apparently everything significant in the trilogy occurs in the third episode.

Please correct me here, since Im sure Im missing some elements.

As much as I'd love to go pouring though perfect works. I've got major projects due next week and to get them done on time I can't give it the attention it'd need. Goes on my to do list for finals week though (bah, tests).

A.C said:

The connection experiment happened in T.C 4767 and the Miltian Conflict happened in T.C 4753 (which coincides with the interstellar war intensification note in PW's timeline) so that wouldn't have worked either. I saw alot of these Deus theories back in the day but none of them seemed to work with the plot at any point in the Xenosaga story.

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The exact dates given was the first thing I'd expect to fall apart even if they'd been trying to retell Perfect Works. I'd hardly call the "Miltian Conflict" an "interstellar war." I figure there are 3 things that made it notable in the mindset of the people. Life is relatively peaceful, it was recent, and it meant the abandoning of a major population center. Otherwise its insignificant to the vast majority of the interstellar comunity.

A.C said:

Yeah but I always felt Xenogears' Abel was a bit too random, and his arc ended as soon as the WE left the Dimensional universe. A human boy that becomes God's agent and receives his power is cool and all, but God himself becoming a human sounds alot more interesting to me. At least as long as they follow the 'Gears arc in a similar thematic way. That'd be incredible.

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Random happens. Look at it another way: the WE would've contacted someone, could have been anyone, we get the story of if it happened to a young boy.

A.C said:

Hmm. Like what exactly? Apart from Strategic Interstellar Weapon Deus and the Eldridge I felt that pretty much everything in the Episode I timeline (well, the little we got clued in on in PW) were included and expanded upon (with some alteration perhaps) in the Xenosaga trilogy. I guess I don't miss Deus as much since I kinda made my peace with that long ago, and it was really only a plot device and never was what the Xenogears story was truly about.

It was cool how Abel's Ark took the shape of the Eldridge as an easter egg though

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Again, this is a busy week, I can't give this the attention I'd like. But say Abel's Ark -> Eldridge is what happens. Thats actually perhaps the opposite problem, a counterproductive allusion. It puts XS's Eldridge in a position where it having a parallel role is very unlikely.

[quote author=Walter]
Call me a layman, since its been nearly a decade since I looked on Perfect Works, but why exactly do Episodes I and II of Xenosaga focus so much time on the gnosis, since they play nearly no role in the overall plot (other than a supernatural/superficial MacGuffin).[/quote]

It's a bit difficult to go into this without spoiling the whole thing for you, but if you don't care that much I suppose it doesn't matter. Infact, playing Episode III will still leave you with alot of confusion since the plot is written in such a messy way.

Basically, the concept of Gnosis is über-important to the storyline, and not just the "Episode I" arc. They are not just a superficial MacGuffin, and although they are kind of supernatural the game and sourcebooks do go into some pretty neat pseudo-scientific explanation for them like PW did with alot of concepts from Xenogears.

[quote author=Walter]They're not even mentioned at all in Perfect Works, yet you guys are maintaining that PW was still followed.[/quote]

The book Xenogears: Perfect Works is primarily a sourcebook for Episode V and mostly touches on the events that are of immediate importance to the Episode V plot. Gnosis is too big of an Episode I plot to introduce in the sourcebook for Episode V, which is why PW's Episode I timeline is mostly blank compared to Xenosaga's timeline. PW's Episode I timeline does give one significant hint that the two stories were meant to be very similair and that is the Planetary disappearance incident which I consider proof that the dual structure concept of the Dimensional universe was to play an important role in Xenogears' Episode I as much as it does in Xenosaga. I for one cannot imagine a Xenogears Episode I story without it. Especially since Xenogears builds its plot around the concept of reincarnation, yet never explains how this is possible (until Episode I introduces the concept of the imaginary number plane) and Xenogears also features the Seraph Angels which is basically the same concept as Gnosis and Xenosaga III even has Gnosis that look like Seraphs.

The timeline is not maintained to a 100% but it is still surprisingly close even with a heavily altered plot. I made a timeline comparison at another board which I still have saved on my HD somewhere. I could post it if you're interested, although it has alot of spoilers for Xenosaga III.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]As much as I'd love to go pouring though perfect works. I've got major projects due next week and to get them done on time I can't give it the attention it'd need.[/quote]

I don't think you or Walter really need to read it again since it sounds like you got most of 'Gears technical plot, but you seem to have some misconceptions about Xenosaga and/or the series in general.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]I'd hardly call the "Miltian Conflict" an "interstellar war."[/quote]

I'm sorry I typed from memory and I just checked it, it didn't say interstellar war, it says "Interstellar dispute intensifies" also sometimes translated as "cosmic conflict intensifying". Xenogears Episode I was supposed to focus on the outbreak of this war (probably around T.C 4766-4767), which sounds alot like what Xenosaga does.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]
Random happens. Look at it another way: the WE would've contacted someone, could have been anyone, we get the story of if it happened to a young boy.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I liked that plot point in Xenogears, but I felt it left Episode V at a dead end with little to no characterization for the Wave Existence, the Zohar destroyed, Fei released from fate and everyone remaining on the unknown planet as orphans in the universe. It was a sweet story for one game, but I believe the author felt he needed to improve the plot to make a more epic series (as if Xenogears wasn't epic enough ) and I do agree with that decision after digesting the Xenosaga trilogy.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]
But say Abel's Ark -> Eldridge is what happens. Thats actually perhaps the opposite problem, a counterproductive allusion. It puts XS's Eldridge in a position where it having a parallel role is very unlikely. [/quote]

Well this is where the plot has been rewritten to avoid the "dead end" Episode V suffers from. The same thematic story can still be told even without the Eldridge crashing on an unknown planet or having Deus involved. The story arc with Abel and Nephilim(Elly) will now take place on Lost Jerusalem for 10 000 years instead of an unknown planet. Abel's Ark goes with them, so having it shaped like the Eldridge as an easter egg is only fitting.

The Xenosaga Episode III Perfect Guide sheds some light on this future:

<<Lost Jerusalem>>
　　　　The rejecting consciousnesses that had become Gnosis went through the domain shift to Lost Jerusalem together with Nephilim, chaos, and Abel. There, they will perhaps build up a new civilization.
　　　　The Gnosified consciousnesses-- in other words, the strong souls that tend to refuse to go quietly into the Collective Unconscious-- they are turned into existences of the real domain and begin to live as people.
　　　　It is expected to become something altogether different from the history that had once occurred on Lost Jerusalem. The birth of organisms (and ecosystem) due to turning the Gnosified consciousnesses into real domain existences will become what greeted the new situation {iffy}. The effect of U-DO and the Zohar will be there as well. So also will the effect of Anima and Animus. Perhaps a dramatic change such as that will be what leads to the possibility of a new future.

Click to expand...

Now, this isn't exactly what happens in Xenogears, but it is thematically very similair. The strong wills that refuse to go quietly into the Collective Unconscious is most likely exactly what the people on the Xenogears world was, hence all the crappy attitude all those people had towards eachother, beginning with Cain positioning himself as "God". That planet suffered almost nothing but war, destruction and reincarnation with only Elly trying to heal them all.

Now, can you imagine a story where U-DO has chosen to remain in the real number domain as a human with Nephilim and they're going to attempt to "heal" the new civilization born from Nephilim? You can bet the first generation is going to be real bastards and Abel, even though he is part of God, is very much a child and doesn't know how much abuse he's setting himself up for by chosing to remain in the Dimensional universe's real number domain. After 10 000 years he could very well have a messed up psyche, split personalities, and god only knows what else

A.C said:

Well this is where the plot has been rewritten to avoid the "dead end" Episode V suffers from. The same thematic story can still be told even without the Eldridge crashing on an unknown planet or having Deus involved. The story arc with Abel and Nephilim(Elly) will now take place on Lost Jerusalem for 10 000 years instead of an unknown planet. Abel's Ark goes with them, so having it shaped like the Eldridge as an easter egg is only fitting.

Click to expand...

The where the 10,000 years is spent isn't so important in my mind as that it involves being stranded there, and haveing lost the XS level technology. I don't see there being any significant change to Xenogears' plot if the Eldridge crashed on Earth instead. I spose if they just teleport to the planet and don't take anything with them, episode 2 could start like that (that did sorta happen didn't it). I interpreted the XS end as the group going off to search for Lost Jerusalem was synonamous with the Eldridge. In which case the Abel's ark thing was a bad idea. I s'pose your explanation works too.

In summary: What a mess.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]
The where the 10,000 years is spent isn't so important in my mind as that it involves being stranded there, and haveing lost the XS level technology.[/quote]

Yeah, I feel that ones important too. As far as I see they didn't take anything particular with them except of course the relics of God, but those should take a while for the new civilization to comprehend.

[quote author=Majin Tenshi]
I interpreted the XS end as the group going off to search for Lost Jerusalem was synonamous with the Eldridge.[/quote]

I think that a group would've set out to search for the Eldridge after it went missing as well, so I kind of looked at them more that way.

[quote author=Walter]In summary: What a mess. [/quote]

It is a mess, but it's an interesting mess.